User talk:Jim7049: Difference between revisions

Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, Jim7049!

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-- Wikimedia Commons Welcome (talk) 22:06, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your revert to Syrian_Civil_War_map.svg [1], did you notice that the legend also changed? White no longer represents just HTS, it represents the Salvation government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kami888 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Kami888: Yes, even in that case not the entire province is under salvation gov control. Jaysh al-Izza was not a part of NFL, which surrendered to the salvation government. The south should be left green. Jim7049 (talk) 22:11, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense, but are you sure about it? This map:[2] shows that the Jaysh al-Izza controlled parts of Idlib had already been under the authority of the Salvation Government even before 2019. Can't exactly vouch for the reliability of this map, but it's the only thing we have to go by. Kami888 (talk) 22:42, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In either case Salvation Gov's control is just de jure. The most accurate situation I found regarding Idlib is at Syriancivilwarmap.com - While generally I found it extremely biased it has done a good job regarding Idlib. It's best to show HTS control areas rather than the dejure salvation gov. Jim7049 (talk) 22:57, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is, the same exact thing could easily be said of the Syrian government control over many areas, yet these areas are colored in solid red on our map. Recall for example that many areas in Deraa province are still controlled exclusively by the former rebel brigades, with no Syrian army presence [3]. But they are colored red on the map here, with no nuance. And that is not even counting the many areas of Syria where the effective power on the ground belongs to Hezbollah or other pro-Iranian groups such as LDF, yet they are also simply red on our map. And this simplification makes sense, because through accepting the civil governance of the Syrian government, they are not just agreeing to pay taxes and cooperate with Damascus, but they are also effectively recognizing the primacy of and showing their submission towards the Syrian Armed Forces, Syrian police, and other security forces of the Syrian government as the real ultimate authority over the entire region. Thus they can be safely counted as "allies" of the SAA in the civil war, even if they did not exactly arrive at status of their own free will as is the case of many former rebel brigades. I think the same could be said of the HTS control in Idlib. HTS doesn't have to dissolve all other groups in order to maintain effective control over the province, it is enough to crush the opposition to such an extent that it is forced to recognize HTS as the effective leader in the Idlib area, and the recognition of the Salvation Government as the only governing civil authority in the region serves as both legal and symbolic acceptance of that fact. This was my thinking behind making the change. Kami888 (talk) 23:22, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So with this in mind, tell me, what is the difference between the former FSA-SF brigades still "holding" on to swaths of territory in Deraa, versus the former NFL brigades still "holding" on to swaths of territory in Idlib? Kami888 (talk) 23:27, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Syrian Government and allies haven't seen an infighting though, and are much more united than the Idlib rebels. They have fought with each other several times since 2013. Also I'm %100 sure there are no opposition groups left in Daraa now, I haven't seen any map what so ever regarding rebel positions still not evacuated since Summer offensive. That map you gave is also from October, 3 months ago. Jim7049 (talk) 23:31, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

>Also I'm %100 sure there are no opposition groups left in Daraa now, I haven't seen any map what so ever regarding rebel positions still not evacuated since Summer offensive.

Well, you've seen one such map just now, cause i showed it to you. :) But the reason that most maps don't show you this is precisely because most maps simplify the situation by coloring everything red, since the former rebel brigades now recognize the authority of the Syrian government. But that doesn't mean they disappeared, in fact most of them didn't go anywhere. In reality, you can read many on-the-ground accounts of the situation in Deraa which state that many former rebel groups are still very much present on the ground in certain areas, they simply switched allegiance and agreed to "reconcile" with the Syrian government during the offensive of 2018. In fact, the Syrian army is prohibited from entering many of these areas due to the agreements they signed with the rebel leaders, mediated by the Russian side. Read more about this here when you get the chance: [4]. And always remember this: Just because you haven't heard of something yet, doesn't mean it's not true. :) Kami888 (talk) 23:44, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like the government is in military control of these areas, militarily at least. Are there still armed rebels in the south as of Jan 2019? Jim7049 (talk) 00:03, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There should be, that article I linked is just from mid December, I haven't heard of any drastic changes in Deraa since then. So basically those green shaded pockets you saw on the map I linked, they still have no Syrian army presence, just former rebel brigades now flying a new flag. But is it really that different from what happened with the NFL groups in Idlib? Kami888 (talk) 00:14, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No it's not, rather than making all Idlib the same colour you should add those pockets in Daraa to the map as well. If you can. Maybe add a new tag mentioning reconciliation rather than making it Green. Jim7049 (talk) 00:17, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, maybe, I thought about that as well, but that would mean introducing a new color and further complicating the map, it has a lot of colors already. Also problematic is the fact that we don't really know the precise frontlines between different factions in Idlib. I've looked at many different sources attempt to map out the frontlines between those groups, and the results tend to be wildly divergent from each other. There are as many different versions of the situation in Idlib as there are sources telling you about it. So if we try to be very specific, we also risk being very imprecise and just wrong. Alternatively, we could do what mapmakers normally do and just simplify the map to the best of our ability, and then if there's an outbreak of fighting again, like say if Faylaq al Sham or Jayish al Izza decide to stand up to HTS or the same sort of thing happens in Deraa between the SAA and Shabab a-Sunnah, we could again mark them a different color at that point. That would be my preference anyway. Kami888 (talk) 00:24, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]