Commons:Deletion requests/File:Fantomas1911.jpg

Starace, the illustrator, died in 1950. — Racconish^📥 16:35, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. It seem that the uploader was correct in his description that this illustration is anonymous. It was published without a name of author and it seems that its author is unknown. That is the definition of anonymous. Another user changed the description page yesterday [1] to attribute the illustration to Starace and he linked to an article as his source, but that source explains that this particular illustration, which illustrates the cover of the first book in the series, is unsigned and is of a very different style than the illustrations of the other books in the series, which are signed by Starace. Here is the exact quote from the article: «Cette première couverture, qui n’est pas signée, est d’un style très différent de celles de Starace. Il est très probable qu’elle ne soit pas de lui.» [2] (translation: «This first cover, which is unsigned, is of a very different style than those by Starace. It is very probable that it is not by him.») If the author of this illustration is unknown, then Commons should not speculate to attribute it. The objective fact is that the illustration was published without a name. Anonymous works published in 1911 would have entered the public domain in France in 1971 (51 y. pp + 9 y. ext.) and could be PD-1923 in the U.S. Although the tag PD-old should not have been used with an anonymous work, the file could probably have the tags PD-1923 and Anonymous-EU (which is not explicit in cases like this, but good enough). -- Asclepias (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree this is a quality source. The quoted footnote actually contradicts the text of the same article which says the opposite : "Gino Starace reprend ici à son compte des codes visuels efficaces, et ne laisse nulle place à la polysémie, la multiplicité vagabonde de la lecture de l’image". The same writer, Annabel Audureau, confirms her attribution to Starace in her book Fantômas: un mythe moderne au croisement des arts : "c'est le premier février 1911, en reprenant la structure d'une affiche publicitaire créée pour les pilules Pink que Gino Starace va immortaliser la silhouette d'un des plus célèbres bandits masqués, Fantômas"(p.37). I nominated for deletion following another article, by Bérengère Vachonfrance-Levet, also published by Belphegor according to which : "L’illustrateur-maison de l’éditeur Fayard, Gino Starace, avait illustré la première de couverture du roman en s’inspirant d’une affiche publicitaire anonyme vantant une boite de pilules (Pink) qui avait retenu l’attention de Pierre Souvestre et Marcel Allain. Il avait remplacé la boîte de pilules par un poignard sanguinolent et fait disparaître les pilules lâchées sur Paris." [3]. The illustration is also attributed to Starace in this article of the New York Times: "This was the cover drawn by Gino Starace for the 1911 edition of “Fantômas,”". Cheers, — Racconish^📥 20:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC) modified 22:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC) added quote from Audureau's book 10:01, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's strange. -- Asclepias (talk) 00:23, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See also Pulp Surrealism: Insolent Popular Culture in Early Twentieth-century Paris by Robin Waltz, University of California Press, 2002. "Illustrator Gino Starace designed the covers of the original series" (p.46). "Allain conveyed the story line to Gino Starace who illustrated the cover" (p. 52). Cheers, — Racconish^📥 09:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. (First, sorry for my bad english.) I uploaded this work, indeed. ;-)
Most "Fantômas scholars" told that Starace is not the author of this painting. In fact, Annabel Audureau's book does make for pleasant reading but it's not always error-free ; in his chapter "Fantômas et la critique" (in Le Rocambole. Bulletin des amis du roman populaire, n° 54, "Fantômas centenaire", spring 2011, p.24), Alfu says : "Ce livre d'Annabel Audureau reste une pièce importante dans le dispositif, encore une fois fort modeste, de la critique fantômassienne. Un sacré bémol toutefois : le manque de rigueur dans le traitement des informations de seconde main. Car la recopie de ces informations n'est pas toujours exempte d'erreurs ou d'approximations et, souvent les références sont absentes. Je prendrais l'exemple de ce qui est dit à propos de Gino Starace. Rappelons que le brillant artiste italien n'est pas l'auteur de la première couverture du roman, qui représente un Fantômas lupinien, bien loin des silhouettes qu'il propose par la suite.".
I recopy other helpful information sources :
"Restait à trouver une illutration saisissante pour la couverture du premier volume. Aucun des projets présentés n'étant assez percutant, Fayard suggère alors de fouiller dans le carton rempli d'affiches publicitaires, qu'un dessinateur éconduit a laissé dans son bureau. Marcel Allain y déniche un projet d'affiche concernant les "Pillules Pink pour personnes pâles". Elle représente un homme masqué en habit de soirée qui enjmabe les toits de Paris ; sa main droite laisse échapper dans le ciel une traînée de pilulles. Une idée à creuser, mais dont l'auteur a omis de laisser nom et adresse. Il ne s'est jamais fait connaître depuis la naissance du mythe à l'imagerie duquel il a contribué malgré lui. Voici comment : "Puisque vous tenez à cette affiche, propose Fayard, il n'y a qu'à effacer la traînée de pillules, remplacer la boîte par un poignard, et ça fera l'affaire..." Ainsi est née, selon l'expression de Robert Desnos, une image classique de l'onirologie parisienne. Elle n'a cessé d'inspirer illustrateurs et peintres. L'un d'eux, Magritte, s'est borné à la reproduire en remplaçant le poignard par une rose.", (Francis Lacassin, preface to Fantômas, Paris: Robert Laffont, 1987, pp.21-22 ; text reproduced in Francis Lacassin, À la recherche de l'empire caché : mythologie du roman populaire, Paris: Julliard, 1991, p.129.)
"Dans les pages précédentes et suivantes, nous donnons un panorama de ces différentes séries et, en couleurs, la reproduction de planches originales pour la série principale, les œuvres de Ponson du Terrail et les "Fantômas" de Souvestre & Allain. La 1ère couverture de cette dernière série, reproduite ci-dessous [in black and white] est anonyme. Il s'agit en fait d'un montage effectué à partir d'un projet d'affiche publicitaire retouché pour les besoins de la cause.", (Alfu, Patrice Caillot and François Ducos, Gino Starace : l'illustrateur de "Fantômas", Amiens: Encrage, 1987, published without pagination).
And I must have keep somewhere the words used by Marcel Allain himself (in Noël Arnaud, Francis Lacassin et Jean Tortel, Entretiens sur la paralittérature. Centre culturel international de Cerisy-la-Salle, 1er septembre-10 septembre 1967, Paris: Plon, 1970), I will also check into it. Regards. Montmorency1

I agree Alfu claims Starace is not the author. But I quoted a number of other specialists who disagree with Alfu. In my opinion PCP applies. Cheers, — Racconish^📥 12:38, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not only Alfu. Above all, Francis Lacassin introduces the same nuance about the Fantômas covers. In fact, Lacassin is historically the first specialist to claim that Starace is not the author of the cover n°1 because Marcel Allain told directly this anecdote to the public of the Centre culturel international of Cerisy-la-Salle (september 1967). Therefore, Lacassin is the only Fantômas scholar to quote his source, unlike Annabel Audureau and Bérengère Vachonfrance-Levet. Regards. Montmorency1

Everybody agrees Allain said the poster was inspired by an anonymous poster for the Pink pills. The disagreement is on who made the Fayard cover. And there is a good reason to consider it was Starace : he was doing all Fayard covers at the time. Cheers, — Racconish^📥 13:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"And there is a good reason to consider it was Starace : he was doing all Fayard covers at the time" : it's only a conjecture, isn't it ? Plausible, indeed, because Starace was a very important artist of the collection "Le Livre Populaire" at Fayard. But he was not the only one ! There was Georges Conrad, for example. A fortiori, all Gino Starace's covers (and even posters) contain his signature according to Alfu, Patrice Caillot and François Ducos. It's clearly visible in their book about Starace : only the first Fantômas cover doesn't contain Starace's signature. We can assume that Gino didn't want to sign a painting which was not of his making... but then again, a conjecture (maybe a relevant one, we don't know ;-)) ! Regards. Montmorency1

OK, I clarify : Fayard's house illustrator according to Walz [4]. Cheers, — Racconish^📥 14:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Non, no, it was crystal clear, don't worry ! ;-) Starace was without doubt a pillar of the collection "Le Livre populaire" as Alfu, Caillot and Ducos also told us. But Gino didn't paint all the covers : for example, he didn't illustrate the literary works of Gustave Aimard, Louis Noir or Pierre Sales published in the same collection (Alfu et alii). Whether the first Fantômas cover was a Starace's painting (strangely not signed ?) although not an original pictorial composition or whether it was the work of some anonymous artist (in order to touch up the above-mentioned details) is anyone's guess, for now. But upon reflection : Annabel Audureau contradicts herself ; Bérengère Vachonfrance-Levet does not quote her sources (as The New York Times) ; lastly, Robin Walz is right about Allain & Starace routine but he doesn't tell specifically the same rule applies to the first cover. So I'm agree with Asclepias : "Commons should not speculate to attribute it. The objective fact is that the illustration was published without a name". Regards. Montmorency1

In short, according to you whoever writes Starace is the author is wrong. But what about PCP ? Cheers, — Racconish^📥 16:03, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No : in short, whoever writes without sources Starace is the author is wrong. ;-)
Walz does not assert anything about the first cover specifically, The New York Times journalist is hardly an acknowledged expert and Audureau rectifies herself her assertion in her article ! (Please note that Audureau's first work is one of Vachonfrance-Levet's source, and Vachonfrance-Levet herself is a "young researcher" [5]) Finally, four french popular literature specialists (which three are Starace's biographers) and Alfredo Castelli (Fantomas. Un secolo di terrore, 2011) told this illustration is not related with Gino.
Therefore we have an anonymous painting, unsigned (unlike the usual procedure of Gino) and not credited at the time (1911). That's a fact, and no legitimate authentication allows to express strong doubts about that. Anything more is simply speculation. In sum, I don't think PCP applies. Regards. Montmorency1

I agree with you when you claim some authors deny the attribution to Starace, but I disagree when you claim the attribution to Starace is not sourced or the authors of such attribution are not specialists. It would be more neutral to say there is a lack of consensus between specialists. Can we leave it there and let somebody else draw the conclusions ? Cheers, — Racconish^📥 18:13, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do not wish to have an argument with you but why do you disagree when I said that "the attribution to Starace is not sourced" ? Where are the sources of these specialists, then ? Audureau changed her statement in her note ; Vachonfrance-Levet and the journalist Dave Kehr merely assert that Starace's the author, they never give reasons.
I don't want also to do unflattering generalizations about Dave Kehr of the New York Times : I mean to say he's a movie critic and not a popular literature specialist. ;-) Regards. Montmorency1

The authors I have quoted claiming Starace is the author of this image are Audureau, Walz, Vachonfrance-Levet and Kehr. I agree Alfu and Castelli claim he is not. Cheers, — Racconish^📥 22:11, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You forgot Lacassin, Caillot et Ducos. And I did not get any answers for my question. ;-) Regards. Montmorency1

Here is another one, Richard Abel in "The thrills of grande peur: crime series and serials in the belle epoque", The Velvet Trap, Spring 1996 : "The public fascination with these novels was due, in part, to the paradoxical figure of Fantomas himself, as apache, anarchist, and bourgeois gentleman, captured vividly in the first book cover illustration by Gino Starace: a gigantic masked man in formal dress literally brooding over Paris, with one foot testing the strength of a bridge on the Seine and his right hand clenching a barely concealed dagger". By the way, Caillot and Ducos are the co-authors of Alfu's book and you are interpretating Lacassin. Cheers, — Racconish^📥 22:52, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, the cover is not attributed to anyone, Starace or some anonymous artist, Lacassin dixit. However, the co-author Ducos is an expert on the topic and not Alfu's clone (and Caillot is a specialist of the French press).
Anyway, are film critics Kehr & Abel scholars who specialise in the field of popular literature ? Once again, what are their sources of information ? Therefore, a quality source or a minor source ? Regards. Montmorency1

(Je repasse au français :-))
J'ai adressé ce courriel à Robin Walz, entre autres auteurs :
"Je me permets de vous contacter car j'ai une question relative à votre étude Pulp Surrealism: Insolent Popular Culture in Early Twentieth-Century Paris. En effet, vous affirmez page 46 que l'"Illustrator Gino Starace designed the covers of the original series". Cependant, la première couverture - non signée - serait inspirée par une affiche des pillules Pink, selon la fameuse anecdote de Marcel Allain. (...) Je voulais connaître votre opinion à ce sujet. Attribuez-vous la couverture du roman à Gino Starace ? Ou bien dissociez-vous ce dernier de cette couverture, finalement anonyme ?"
Robin Walz m'a fort aimablement répondu de manière précise :
Robin R Walz <rrwalz AT uas.alaska.edu> Date : 03/02/2015 00h50 Objet : Re: Fantômas et Gino Starace
"Il y a longtemps depuis Pulp Surrealism a paru, et j'ai honte à déclarer qu'il est de petites fautes dans mon texte. Mais je crois que cet exemple n'est pas parmi eux.D'abord, vous avez raison ; la première couverture reste un énigme, dessinée par un illustrateur anonyme. Le reste des couvertures de la série originale était de Gino Starace. Dans mon texte : la référence à Gino Starace comme l'illustrateur de la série originale (p. 46), c'est aux premiers volumes du « Livre Populaire » (112 vols.), pas de « Fantômas ». L'histoire des « Pilules Pink » est raconté sur p. 50. Selon Allain, c'était Fayard qui a remplacé la petite bouteille avec le poignard (j'ai oublié à mentionner que le dessinateur de l'affiche et de la couverture originale était inconnu). Après le premier volume, c'était Allain qui donnait l'intrigue de chaque épisode suivante à Starace pour dessiner la couverture (p. 52)."
Cordialement. Montmorency1

@Montmorency1: Thanks for checking with Robin Walz. Based on his opinion, I withdraw my nomination. Cheers, — Racconish^📥 18:30, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: Withdrawn. Yann (talk) 19:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

superseded by a larger and clearer file. This file is smaller and blurrier as compared to File:Fantomas 1911.jpg. --Minorax^«¦talk¦» 06:36, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination. --Yann (talk) 10:01, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]