Talk:Enyobeni Tavern disaster
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Natalius in topic Requested move 28 June 2022
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Proposed renaming
The article name "East London, Eastern Cape tavern disaster" seems lengthy. I'd like to suggest a renaming of this article, perhaps to "East London tavern disaster"? elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 17:01, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- It was there originally, but someone thought it was confusing against London, England. The current name, with the tavern name, is even better than both of those so we should be good for a title now. Pikavoom Talk 05:45, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- I've boldly moved it from disaster to deaths, as disaster is extremely vague. BilledMammal (talk) 09:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure that makes it any less vague, but the whole incident is vague. You'd expect them to have a cause of death by now, but it's still being investigated and media reports are not definitive either way. Pikavoom Talk 10:53, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- I've restored the original title of "East London tavern disaster", which is also the "status quo" as the first non-stub title. This seems the most decriptive and best at the moment. That said I have also inserted 2022 per WP:NCE. — Amakuru (talk) 13:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure that makes it any less vague, but the whole incident is vague. You'd expect them to have a cause of death by now, but it's still being investigated and media reports are not definitive either way. Pikavoom Talk 10:53, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Location
I have removed the coordinates, which pointed to a totally different nightclub in the area. The Facebook page for Enyobeni Tavern gives its address as 37219 scenery park phase 1, East London, South Africa, which I believe means that it is on 37th Road (or Street). The streets are not laid out in any order I can see, so I hope that another editor can find the place. Abductive (reasoning) 08:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
africtionary.com link
This link is being repeatedly readded by @Pitsraz:. In my opinion Wikipedia shouldn't link to outside dictionary sites without a good reason, and I don't see a good reason to link here. There must be a guideline about this, but these kind of links are usually just not done. Pikavoom Talk 15:54, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Blocked. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 16:47, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 28 June 2022
| The request to rename this article to Enyobeni Tavern disaster has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag. |
2022 East London tavern disaster → Enyobeni Tavern disaster – WP:NOYEAR. East London is England so people would be confused. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 01:39, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support Renaming would help clarify the location so it's not confused with London in England. Natalius (talk) 02:08, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- East London in this usage is a South African city which is clear in the article. However, I support a move for precision. thorpewilliam (talk) 05:12, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support, Seems a reasonable change. Regards, Ariconte (talk) 06:51, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Makes sense to me too, not for potential confusion but for clarity. Support. Gabrielbodard (talk) 06:58, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support Renaming would help remove confusion. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 10:38, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support - would be consistent with what seems to be the prevailing naming convention in Category:Disasters in nightclubs and its subcategories. - htonl (talk) 11:00, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. The year needs to remain in place, per instructions at WP:NCE, and also numerous debates on this subject such as at 2022 Buffalo shooting. NCE says "In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors: When the incident happened. Where the incident happened. What happened." Exceptions to this are only for very well-known events where the year is superfluous, something that doesn't apply here. East London is also correct, as that's the locality where it happened. Nobody has heard of the "Enyobeni Tavern", so that title will not be recognizable. Finally, there's no confusion with East London in the UK, as there has been no tavern disaster there. Per WP:PRECISE, the title only needs to identify the subject exclusively. It doesn't need to include extra information. The only other title I might consider is 2022 South Africa tavern disaster, as some reliable sources are describing it thus. — Amakuru (talk) 11:30, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: the existing articles on nightclub disasters do not seem to adhere to WP:NCE or your suggested application of WP:PRECISE. For example there are articles named Cocoanut Grove fire and The Station nightclub fire, not "1942 Boston nightclub fire" and "2003 Rhode Island nightclub fire". - htonl (talk) 12:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS I guess. Just because other articles are badly named, doesn't mean this one has to be. There's no point having a guideline if we're just going to ignore it. — Amakuru (talk) 12:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a guideline for deletion discussions. WP:CONSISTENT says that article titles should be "consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles". The contents of Category:Disasters in nightclubs and its subcategories shows that "[name of venue] [type of event]" is by far the most common naming scheme. - htonl (talk) 12:34, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. What's happening here is a WP:CONSISTENT scenario: name the article after the venue it occurred. This pattern is followed by Blue Bird Café fire, The Station nightclub fire, Club Cinq-Sept fire, Happy Valley Racecourse fire, Knights of Columbus Hostel fire, Lame Horse fire, Thousand Oaks shooting, Ozone Disco fire, 2003 Peoples' Friendship University of Russia fire, Opémiska Community Hall fire, Kader Toy Factory fire, Kiss nightclub fire, Astroworld Festival crowd crush, Neutro Shorty concert stampede, Port Said Stadium riot, Ellis Park Stadium disaster, Oppenheimer Stadium disaster, Our Lady of the Angels School fire, Dolphinarium discotheque massacre, Ku Klux Klan raid of La Paloma nightclub, Stage Club bombing, etc. etc. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS I guess. Just because other articles are badly named, doesn't mean this one has to be. There's no point having a guideline if we're just going to ignore it. — Amakuru (talk) 12:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: the existing articles on nightclub disasters do not seem to adhere to WP:NCE or your suggested application of WP:PRECISE. For example there are articles named Cocoanut Grove fire and The Station nightclub fire, not "1942 Boston nightclub fire" and "2003 Rhode Island nightclub fire". - htonl (talk) 12:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Neutral between East London and Enyobeni. The year is probably required per NCE. Overall, I would just Wait with most of the moves here. The nature of the deaths are unclear. I assume they will not remain a mystery. A much better discussion can be had in a couple of weeks when what actually happened will be clearer. Pikavoom Talk 11:42, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose for now. Best to consider renaming after more information is gathered (and publicly released) from the initial investigation, and see how the WP:COMMONNAME name for the tragedy shakes out in the news media. Agree that "2022 ..." is helpfule, per WP:NCE. But "disaster" does not seem to the be right word for what when down here. N2e (talk) 14:31, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment As the East London this happened in is at East London, Eastern Cape, there needs to be some sort of disambig to make it clear it's the South African East London, and not the one in the England. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 18:33, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Neutral because I don't believe "Disaster" is the right term here. I would go for "East London Tavern Deaths 2022" or something to that effect. CK CTZA (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2022 (UTC)