Talk:1999 Russian apartment bombings: Difference between revisions

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transl. ru:Взрывы жилых домов#Контраргументы относительно альтернативной версии

The conspiracy theory I gathered was that prime minister Vladimir Putin had nothing to show in the coming elections. His policy was showing no good results. After the bombings and the war answer, Putin's new party successfully passed over any of the candidates. Can this theory be attributed to anyone, so that it is put in the article? --Error 01:47, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From all appearances, this is most likely what happened in short and in all clumsiness and insolence in the making of the Kremlin politics recently given that there is a team rather than one man to be blamed for although he must be involved in everything but as a cover.--BIR 07:33, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Any references on the official (Amir Khattab and Gochijaev) version? Did they suggest any other suspects later? Why Litvinenko books were not cited? Are they considered a reliable source? Biophys 04:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How and when all these terrorists were convicted? I was waiting for a month. There are no any references in the official part of the story. Should the unreferenced statements be deleted? Biophys 06:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian language version of this article does have some references, perhaps a Russian speaking editor could look at them :-). According to policy things should be verifiable by sources other than Wikipedia. It looks as though the English version mirrors the Russian article and that article and hence this one is thin on references. I would try and get some references rather than delete it as the conviction's are central to the article and it wouldn't make sense without reference to them. Alex Sims 06:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I could only find the official answer from the general prosecutor's office to a Duma member, in Russian and its computer translation. ilgiz 10:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, probably this is it. However source says that all claims about these people are made by prosection or investigators. It seems that all or most of these people were not convicted in a court. If this is indeed the case (is it?), nobody can say that "The following people either delivered explosives, stored them, or harbored other suspects", as written in this article. Any opinions? Biophys 05:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There was a 1.5 month trial in the end of 2003.[1] computer translation, [2] computer translation The press was not allowed, so the journalists had to resort to intermediary sources. The verdict was public. [3] computer translation ilgiz 06:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article is missing information about Alexander Litvinenko --Lee Hunter 17:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC) BBC journalist Martin Sixsmith went with the Litvinenko assertion on BBC Radio Four, broadcast on 12th April 2007.Jatrius 15:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian article has a section on counterarguments to the theory on FSB involvement. I think it needs to be translated - I'd do it myself but it mentions a lot of names that I don't know how to translate. Esn 22:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you think this should be translated? Could you just briefly summarize here the conterarguments from this Russian text? If there is anything, we can write it down. But I found only one thing. They say that the original chemical test was declared inaccurate due to contamination of the analysis apparatus from a previous test. But this has been already stated in this English article. Biophys 03:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here is computer translation. The article is being updated these days, and the pro and contra arguments are scattered around all sections. ilgiz 04:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The best way to organize material is to have all pro arguments in one section and all contra arguments in another section (as it is right now). I agree that the governmental version looks too weak. It is supported by only one reference, whereas the opposite verison is supported by 21 references. If someone could provide more good references about different people mentioned in the governmental version who were convicted or killed - that would be great (I could not find anything!). Also, more can be said about Gochiyaev - who he was and what he claimed. Another interesting question is about 3 FSB persons who conducted the "exercise" in Ryazan. I remember their photos. What are their names? Are they still alive or dead? That would be important to include. Biophys 17:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Sorry, the official version was supported by four references. Still, could be more. Biophys 17:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Fixed the computer translation link). I saw the photo-robots of the 3 suspects in a short video clip on Google that seemed to be a part of the "FSB blows up Russia" narrated documentary.ilgiz 09:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the screen shots from the advocacy documentary "Assassination of Russia" by Transparence Production, parts of which were re-published in "Crimes of the Kremlin" by Journeyman Pictures. ilgiz 11:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So, are they alive or dead? Obviously, they worked for FSB if the claim by Patrushev about the "exercise" was true (and they also worked in FSB if the alternative version is correct). Can we include some of these images in the article? Biophys 15:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A staged interview with one of the imitation perpetrators was shown later, but the interviewed man was shown from the back. I added the screen shot below. I haven't investigated any news on Gochiyaev or the FSB version's participants. I marked the screen shots with the {{promophoto}} template. I believe a fair use clause might apply to these screen shots, but the drop-down list of licence types in the upload page doesn't have such option. Perhaps, the "fair use" clause wasn't considered precise enough. ilgiz 08:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have made a translation of the Counterarguments section in the Russian article, but I would like to have it approved here before adding it, as this is clearly a sensitive issue:

"Officially, Trepashkin was charged with keeping official documents at home (thus breaching security) and not over accusing FSB of the bombings. His conviction had no connection to the bombings. ^{[citation needed]}

A parliamentary enquiry was made to the Prosecutor General of Russia; the response was that the events in Ryazan were indeed a training exercise. According to the Prosecutor General, initial investigations included an attempt of a controlled explosion of 3 kilograms of the substance from the sacks. The substance failed to detonate. The more detailed investigation ordered by the Prosecutor General concluded, on the basis of a pyrotechnical analysis, that:

The sacks contained sucrose — a disaccharide based on glucose and fructose. No traces of explosive substances (trotyl, hexogen, octogen, tannerite?, nytroglycerine, tetryl, and picric acid) were detected. An investigation of the clock, the batteries, the detonator, the lamp, and the wires showed that although this itemd constituted a single electronic device, it was not, however, capable of producing an electric discharge at the signal from the alarm clock and was not an explosive device.

It was also noted that:

...the operation in Ryazan was planned and executed in an inappropriate way. In particular, the matter of the limits of the operation was not looked into. There was no contingency plan of informing the local authorities and the police of the training nature of the operation. in case of its detection.^[1]

Critics of the FSB involvement theory suggest that Novaya Gazeta is funded by George Soros via the Open Society (Otkrytoe obshchestvo) fund and the journalists' views are therefore biased."

My opinion is that this should be added, for although it does look somewhat weak, it is nevertheless a sourced opinion, an official opinion I might add. Without it, the article looks too POV. --AVIosad^(talk) 22:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The official charges are described on the "Charges" page of the trepashkin.ru web site. I have noticed that the prosecutor ("обвинение") and the inquiry, or enquiry, ("следствие") took the same side in finding that Trepashkin had disclosed state secrets. Because the conviction mentioned only an internal information disclosure, I believe that the judges have apparently demoted or disqualified the former charge. I could not understand what exactly was considered a state secret.

По версии обвинения, проходя с 1984 по 1997 год службу в органах безопасности КГБ СССР и ФСБ РФ, Трепашкин копировал служебные документы, которые в дальнейшем незаконно х��анил у себя дома.

Разглашением сведений, составляющих гостайну, следствие считало передачу Трепашкиным своему бывшему коллеге - полковнику ФСБ Виктору Шебалину - материалов старых сводок прослушивания телефонных переговоров членов гольяновской объединенной преступной группировки (в них, по мнению следствия, содержались данные о методах работы ФСБ).

"According to the prosecutor, Trepashkin had been illegally copying office documentation and storing it at home when employed by KGB and FSB from 1984 to 1997.

"The inquiry considered a state secret disclosure the fact that Trepashkin had passed wiretaps of the Goliyanov gang to his former colleague, FSB colonel Victor Shebalin. The inquiry believed the wiretaps contained sensitive details about the FSB investigation techniques".

Details on the sentence are given further on the same page.

Первый процесс Трепашкина проходил в Московском окружном военном суде с декабря 2003 года по 19 мая 2004 года. Трепашкин был признан виновным в разглашении секретных сведений без признаков гостайны и незаконном хранении боеприпасов. Обвинение в злоупотреблении должностными полномочиями (по ч. 3 ст.285 УК РФ) было прекращено в связи с истечением срока давности. Подсудимый не признал своей вины по всем пунктам и заявил, что дело в отношении него было сфабриковано. Он был приговорен к 4 годам лишения свободы в колонии-поселении.

"The first Trepashkin's trial took place in the Moscow circuit military court between December 2003 and May 2004. Trepashkin was found guilty of disclosing internal information and illegal storage of arms. Another charge of office power abuse (part 3, article 285 of Criminal Code of Russian Federation) was lifted because of expiry. The convicted did not acknowledge his guilt on any charge and stated that the case was fabricated. He was sentenced to 4 years of imprisonment in a penal colony".

My translation above may not be correct or accurate.ilgiz 01:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to Novaya Gazeta, Trepashkin was convicted with "illegal acquisition and storage of arms" (article 222, part 1) and "disclosure of information that is a state secret, without the signs of treason" (article 283, part 1).[4] ilgiz 01:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can translate the Russian section if desired, but there are no strong counterarguments in it. Just insistance by the FSB that the bag contained sucrose, and that Trepashkin was charged for revealing state secrets, again by the FSB. Should one expect that as a counterargument? Doing so would be based on the presumption that the FSB, if guilty of the bombings, would have charged him with their tru grievance, namely that he inteferred with an FSB cover-up operation. This beggars belief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.5.217.3 (talk • contribs) 00:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Old news reports from RIA Novosti on Trepashkin, re-published by the Moscow circuit military court in the section "Press about us":

• The Moscow circuit military court will announce a verdict in the case of Mikhail Trepashkin, 19 May 2004. Machine translation.
• The court will carry a verdict in the case of Trepashkin on 15 April, 12 April 2005. Machine translation.

It is uncomfortable to know that the court published news articles on its decisions but did not publish all the decisions themselves. I could not find any official verdicts on Trepashkin at movs.ru. ilgiz 19:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Found the official documents (the year 2004 verdict, the year 2005 appeal and the decision on it) at the Radio Liberty's Yekaterinburg edition's web site.[5] Computer translation ilgiz 03:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• The images not included into the article will be automatically deleted on 21st.ilgiz 01:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• What Gochiyaev said
• What Berezovsky said
• Gochiyaev - update
• What Krymshakhmalov and Batchaev (Крымшамхалов и Батчаев) said
• What Felshtinsky said

Biophys 00:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another interesting source: Who is Mr. Putin? (Russian) by Pribylovsky and FelshtinskyBiophys 02:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It says (Russian):"Теракт в Буйнакске 4 сентября был подготовлен и осуществлен Главным разведывательным управлением Генштаба РФ во главе с генерал-полковником Корабельнико-вым. Операцией руководил начальник 14-го управления Главного разведывательного управления генерал-лейтенант Костечко. Осуществлением теракта занималась группа офицеров ГРУ из двенадцати человек, посланная для этого в командировку в Дагестан."Biophys 05:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1. On 20 May 2004, an article in the Los Angeles Times described the conviction on an unrelated state secret charge of Mikhail Trepashkin, ... I couldn't find the LA Times article, but this Guardian article essentially says enough to cover the first two citation demands of that paragraph.

2. In fact, Seleznyov was referring to an unrelated explosion which indeed happened in Volgodonsk three days earlier - This is a very strong statement, as it presents a statement by one of the interested parties, Genprokuratura, without proper attribution. Besides, the provided source states that the explosive device in question was hand-grenade based... --Illythr 23:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ilgiz (talk • contribs) 03:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Why are theories, stating that USA authorities are resposible for 9/11 teracts, all marked "conspiracy" and placed in tiny paragraph in the second half of 9/11 article, while in this article, the similar theory is placed in front of article as competent point of view? Dims 01:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is little "similarity" between 9/11 attacks and the earlier Russian apartment bombings.

The suspicion of FSB involvement is mentioned in the beginning probably because the mainstream media and researchers do consider the theory credible. And the murders of the main opponents to the government's explanations, banning the book and ignoring the public commission did not help dispel the suspicion.

As for 9/11 attacks, one might see a complete article devoted to the 9/11 conspiracy theories (see the link to the main article in the "tiny paragraph").

The word "conspiracy" by itself is marginalizing some of the theories, including Chomsky's opinions was that the 9/11 attacks were a response, first in its kind, to the civilized world's wars waged against other countries and that the attacks will be used as a justification by other countries such as Russia in their escalation of wars, such as the war in Chechnya.ilgiz 12:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And maybe also because no FBI agents were arrested by the police during any "vigilance exercises" during or imeediatelly after the events of 9/11 (I mean the Ryazan incident, where the FSB agents were caught planting a bomb their superiors later said declared "fake" against the police statement, and after a manhunt captured by a pure chance by the regular Russian cops with the great help of civilians).

The 9/11 theories were also widely discredited, from the completely false rumour about the Jews failing to come to the work (implicating "the Jews did the WTC", of course), to the silly pseudo-experiments done by a bunch of complete amatours. I've seen a bit of this "Loose Change" movie (the one with the "B52 in 1945" claim), and I couldn't stand the nerd voice of the seemingly teenage narrator. --HanzoHattori 13:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So , I added a NPOV tag to the section here is my reasoning behind it:

Looking through the section I saw that, it lists the dates for the bombings, which is good ,I have no problems with that. But it also lists dates for various developments in Putin's career. Now, is would be the purpose to include those? I think it is obviously to infer motive for the bombings. Basically it is saying shows that the bombings happened after Putin came to power, and also he got some "perks" from the bombings (ie getting reelected and the second war in Chechnya). This is done to imply that Putin is connected to the bombings, and is an obvious POV push. I mean come on, same excuse is used by Sep 11 conspiracy theories. They claim that after 9/11 Bush could invade Iraq, pass Patriot Act,take away civil liberties... SO therefore he must have cause the attacks (or at least knowingly failed to prevent them). This is obviously just a theory, and NOT a fact.

So should we also put in a chronology of events into the [September 11, 2001 attacks] article showing how "convenient" the timing of the attacks was in Bush's political career. Obviously not,maybe they would belong in the 9/11 conspiracy theories article, but not in the main article. Same thing for this article that table should only list dates relevant to the ACTUAL event not a THEORY about the event. Actually half of this article is dedicated to a conpiracy theory instead of describing the actual event, but I will get to that later.

Anyway,my rant is over. I propose to remove all the dates that have nothing to do with the bombings (ie everything about Putin). What do you guys think? PolkovnikKGB (talk) 10:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. There doesn't seem to be anything to tie Putin to this bombing, so I don't see why he should be mentioned in this article. Amaliq (talk) 10:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Elected, not reelected. Also your "PolkovnikKGB" name explains much. --HanzoHattori (talk) 11:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure that sources implicate Putin personally in organization of the bombings (this needs to be checked). But the sources implicate FSB and Patrushev in that. So, the timeline describing the alleged coming of FSB people to power is relevant.Biophys (talk) 16:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry , I didn't mean to say that it was him personally, but regardless, the time line should be about the relevant to the actual events, and not an alternate/conspiracy theory.

I don't have the time to check the sources now, I will maybe tomorrow. But I think, if the source DOES use the chronology of events in his FSB theory, then I can see an argument for keeping it. But it should not be a separate section, instead it should be in the FSB theory section (because that is the only thing that it's relevant to). Also it should be noted that the source uses the dates in his theory, that is why they are there. Now,if he does NOT use the dates then they definitely should be removed. Because you are making an inference. Basically it's like this: I see that this guy has a theory that FSB did the bombings, and I agree with him. So I am going to put together this table of dates to better prove his point, even though he ( the source) does NOT rely on dates himself.PolkovnikKGB (talk) 22:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good video sources about these bombings (Russian):

• Part1
• Part2
• Part3
• Part 4. Biophys (talk) 05:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• A kind of summary. Biophys (talk) 05:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are repated attempts to describe this as a "conspiracy theory". Conspiracy theory or not should be decided by sources. FSB involvement in the bombing is a majority view - based on sources. The involvement of FSB has been described in several books published by David Satter, Alexander Litvinenko, Yuri Felshtinsky, Alex Goldfarb, Vladimir Pribylovsky and numerous TV interviews and articles (many references are already included in this article; I can bring more). Hence there are multiple reliable primary and secondary sources claiming the involvemnt of FSB to be true. But I would like to see an equally impressive list of reliable English language sources (so a reader can check) that claim the opposite. There are no such in my knowledge. I found only a couple of Russian sources where the governmental position has been described in sufficient detail.Biophys (talk) 20:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No country government has accused Russia of orchestrating the apartment bombings. There are also many books and TV interviews and articles asserting that the moon landings were fake and September 11 was orchestrated by the US government.--Miyokan (talk) 02:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You said: "No country government has accused Russia of orchestrating the apartment bombings". Of course they did not, because they never do! Why should they bother about citizens of other countries? They have been elected by citizens of their own countries to protect interests of their own citizens. UK would extradite Berezovsky and Zakayev in 5 minutes, unless UK court decided otherwise. You know that UK and US governments extradited almost a million of Russians to Stalin after WWII and most of them were sent to Gulag.Biophys (talk) 17:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everything must be supported by sources. Please provide your sources claiming this to be a conspiracy theory.Biophys (talk) 03:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have provided 8 references that have referred to it as a conspiracy theory.--Miyokan (talk) 03:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A bunch of non-notable journalists claim this to be a "conspiracy theory" simply because this seems improbable for them.

This qualifies the case as a "controversy", not as a "conspiracy theory". So, let's not define this a "conspiracy theory" in Introduction, but include this as a separate section. We do not make any judgements in introductions on controversial subjects. We only should explain in Introduction what the controversy is.Biophys (talk) 17:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

There's really no point about adding how observers describe it as a "conspiracy theory". So what? - PietervHuis (talk) 02:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, let's summarize "Pro" and "Contra" views".

Pro

Several notable proffessionals claiming the involvenet of FSB to be the case: 1 - FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko, 2 - Johns Hopkins University and Hoover Institute scholar David Satter, 3 - member of Russian Duma Sergei Yushenkov, 4 notable historian Felshtinsky, 5 - political scientist Pribylovsky. 6 In addition, we have U.S. Senator and presidential candidate John McCain telling that " There remain credible allegations that Russia's FSB had a hand in carrying out these attacks" [6]. Some of these people have written books on the sibject and they are notable experts.

Contra

A bunch of non-notable journalists claim this to be a "conspiracy theory" simply because this seems improbable for them.

This qualifies the case as a "controversy", not as a "conspiracy theory". So, let's not define this a "conspiracy theory" in Introduction, but include this as a separate section. We do not make any judgements in introductions on controversial subjects. We only should explain in Introduction what the controversy is.Biophys (talk) 18:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The DESCRIBING of it as a conspiracy theory is indisputable fact

Whether or not it is a conspiracy is not the issue, however the DESCRIBING of it as a conspiracy theory is indisputable fact, supported by many sources, much much more credible than Alexander Litvinenko and co., including

• The Washinton Times,
• The New York Times,
• The Times,
• Princeton University, etc.

have referred to it as a "conspiracy theory".--Miyokan (talk) 01:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I d like to add to "Contra" the fact, that all of these notable Russian experts even written a book were sponsored by Berezowski so they are anything but independent.

Sources providing this information were already given in the SecChWar article Caesar Augustvs (talk) 09:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly.--Miyokan (talk) 09:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the expression "conspiracy theory" has two meanings, and it might be better to stick to more precise (and fortunately or not, less striking) terms. The straightforward meaning is a theory that describes a plot. The ironic meaning is a fringe theory, the one that is built on shallow allegations.

In my understanding, had the government been honestly interested in resolving the controversy, any new evidence would be either refuted by a solid evidence or accepted as a solid evidence, even when the latter points fingers at a federal agency.

Below is my quick review of the references attached to the claim that the theory of FSB involvement was widely described as a "conspiracy theory".

• The article in The Times is not an editorial. It is a professional writer's opinion (a) that average Britons would not believe the allegations of corruption and inhumanity in FSB much exceeding that of KGB and (b) that Litvinenko and other immigrants should assimilate and forget the "horrifying" past of their home countries. The articles from The Washington Post and The New York Times did not refute the allegations either. The New Statesman article gave its highest suspicion rate (70%) to the allegations of FSB involvement.
• The excerpt from the book by MacKinnon[7] uses the term in a straightforward way. No refutation is asserted by the author.
• The article by the Agence France-Presse journalist Olga Nedbayeva does not offer counter-arguments other than quoting an FSB spokesman who said that Litvinenko's evidence "cannot be taken seriously".
• The article by Ira Straus starts with a premise that Muslims and the West conspired against Serbia. The author attributes to "Russians and Serbs" a belief that Bosnian Muslims staged massacres by killing their own people. (The article does not point to any evidence of that). Then the author supposes that "some Russians" decided to use the same trick by bombing apartment buildings to draw world's sympathy in their conflict with Chechen rebels. The author's point remains unclear to me. Its headline does not seem to correspond to its ending. Any comments would be welcome.
• The summary of a conference at Princeton 3-4 March 2000 does not refute the "conspiracy theory". It said there was no evidence (at the time) supporting either the official or the opposing theory.
• I read an excerpt from Inside Putin's Russia by Andrew Jack (pp.103-141) in Google Book Search and found his analysis well-researched. The author considers the strong and weak points of the conspiracy theory of FSB involvement and the official theory of Chechen rebel involvement. He points out that "confirming any fact in Russia is difficult", but mentions the opinion of an expert on Dagestan Robert Bruce Ware. Jack points that Ware's opinion on Wahhabis as the most likely culprits coincides with the results of the official investigation which focused on young radicals from Karachaevo-Cherkessia recruited by Achemez Gochiyaev. Jack writes that the findings were embarrassing for the Kremlin as they did not provide justification for a second war.

Labeling the anti-government theory as a "conspiracy theory" in the main article seems to assume the ironic meaning of the term while the references supplied to support the statement operate the term in its straightforward meaning. Therefore, the shallow generalization of the provided secondary sources seems unjustified to me.ilgiz (talk) 10:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What are you disputing? The article is not asserting as fact that it is a conspiracy theory, however the DESCRIBING of it as a conspiracy theory is indisputable fact, which every single one of those sources does:

• Mackinnon's book: But if the conspiracy theory–that all the bombings were the work of government agents–was right, Russia was backsliding quickly toward autocracy.
• The Times: His biggest revelation centred on the conspiracy theory that the FSB was involved in a string of bombing attacks that levelled apartment buildings across Russia in the autumn of 1999.
• New Statesman: Conspiracy theories: a guide
• Terror99: Conspiracy theories on Russia's 1999 bombings gain ground
• Russia Journal: Conspiracy theories run into cold facts Let us examine the alleged conspiracies and conspiracy theories.
• Princeton University: yet neither is there any evidence to support the "conspiracy theory" that ties responsibility to the Russian FSB
• The Washington Times: most dismiss the involvement of the Russian government in the apartment bombings as an unsupported conspiracy theory though it has received widespread attention--Miyokan (talk) 10:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

_______________________________________________________________________

Why even bother writing about how "observers describe it as a conspiracy theory". That's the same as describing the theory of relativity as a "science theory", or the theory of God's existance as a "unfounded theory". There's absolutely no reason to write about this in the article. Let people who read this article draw their own conclusions. - PietervHuis (talk) 11:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Censorship? Why don't we just remove the accusations by Litvinenko and co. then and leave the evidence? Being repeatedly called a "conspiracy theory" establishes that this is often considered a WP:FRINGE theory, and that the claims by Litvinenko and co. are not widely held. The Washington Times summarises it best - "most dismiss the theory as an unsupported conspiracy theory though it has received widespread attention".--Miyokan (talk) 12:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all there's absolutely no evidence released to the public so stop saying there is. Also the fact that a journalist of the new york times describes it as a conspiracy theory doesn't make it universal. Anyway what does it matter. If it was the work of Russia it was indeed a conspiracy.

This article needs cleanup, the introduction should be shorter and allegations / investigations should be seperated. - PietervHuis (talk) 12:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said that evidence was released, I was referring to the "evidence" that the "conspiracy theorists" rely on. If you want to remove "observers describe it as a conspiracy theory" then you would have to remove Former KGB/FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko, Johns Hopkins University and Hoover Institute scholar David Satter,[3], Russian lawmaker Sergei Yushenkov, historian Felshtinsky, and political scientist Pribylovsky asserted that the bombings were in fact a "false flag" attack perpetrated by the FSB (successor to the KGB) in order to legitimize the resumption of military activities in Chechnya and brin - because that is their opinion, you would just have to leave the evidence that they base it on.--Miyokan (talk) 12:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would really like to know, why almost everybody here ignores the involvement of Berezowski? It is a fact he sponsored the investigation, so it is obvious, that the investigation was neither independent, nor impartial. The goal was not to uncover the truth, but to accuse the government. The other fact, that 4.ex many western newspapers prefer to ignore Berezowski' background and his invocations for even a revolution in Russia he is ready to pay for, and to present him as a dissident does not make their statements more credibleCaesar Augustvs (talk) 12:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Caesar, I encourage you to add this information to balance the article.--Miyokan (talk) 12:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm actually not sure if my english is good enough for such mission :) As there is much to change in the "theory of the FSB involvement" than...really much.Caesar Augustvs (talk) 13:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

O'K, I have included one phrase about this this in Introduction - as a compromise. But this should be described in a separate section (I made one and included some materials there).Biophys (talk) 18:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now this is not about "conspiracy theory". This is about proper placing of material. Russian version of this artivle included "Criticism of FSB involvement theory" section (see discussion in the beginning of this talk page), and rightly so. So, all materials of that kind should be placed there. We can not describe all "pro" and "contra" in the introduction.Biophys (talk) 17:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I checked two of several sources provided by Myokan. One of them does not tell anything about these bombings but only discuss Litvinenko case and descibe his murder as a "conspiracy". Another tells that the "theory" may be true. I provided some direct citation to exclude any claims that I misinterpret something.Biophys (talk) 17:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please describe correctly what the sources tell. That is why we need a separate section.Biophys (talk) 17:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.izvestia.ru/investigation/article3102993/ here you have about Felshtinsky, Goldfarb and Litvinenko, http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/news/newsid_2957000/2957473.stm this one is about Juschenkow- as you see, he was killed just a short time after they decided to count out mr. Berezowsky (curious fact, isn’t it?) Here a link about Kovalev http://niiss.ru/d_kovalev.shtml his behaviour during the conflict same as the decoration as "Knight of Honour" from Dudaev directly makes him not really credible regarding questions about Chechnya. Further Trepashkin was as we all know the other former FSB agent taking part in this notable press conference with Beresowski and Litivnenko.

Caesar Augustvs (talk) 19:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

O'K, all links that you provided are probably valid sources. That is how Russian state-controlled media describe "enemies of the people". However, there is nothing there about these apartment bombings. Caesar, do you really believe that Russian apartment bombings were not committed by FSB and GRU spetsnaz? That was highly proffesional job and clearly something extremely damaging for the Chechen cause (small Chechnya can not win a war with Russia - everyone understands that). The more you and Miyokan are trying to prove this to be a conspiracy theory, the more it is clear that the involvement of FSB was real. There is a lot of things to be described here - the Gochyaev ordeal (it is shame - we do not have an article about him), the closed trails of Chechen suspects who were not involved in the bombings whatsoever; the murder of Romanovich at Ciprus, the words of Trepashkin when he came back from prison, etc. So, if you want this to be described, let's go ahead.Biophys (talk) 21:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]