Wikipedia:Featured article review/Restoration literature/archive1: Difference between revisions

Restoration literature

Original author et al aware. Messages left at UK notice board and Books. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lacks inline citations. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T06:04Z

For a lot of the Eng. Lit. period articles and related, I think Harvard has been used. Could that be done here? Marskell 09:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think inline citations are better since they tell you what reference is citing which sentences, but I guess I can't dissuade others from using Harvard. LuciferMorgan 09:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Harvard does the same thing (Smith, pp. 1-3). Marskell 09:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• It has parenthetical references, and footnotes are not an FA requirement. Additionally, even inline citations in general are not required. You're barking up an imaginary tree. See the talk page to the article, as well, for some of how references to outside works were handled in the article. It is an omnibus article. Geogre 11:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So it has parenthetical references eh? If so, where are the page numbers? All it has is a list of books when I checked. LuciferMorgan 14:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See the thread where you lambast "the FAR fanatics"? He he.

The page has parenthetical references for the primary material, but none for any of the secondary sources listed as references. I wouldn't expect many are needed for an overview of a non-current topic, but there are places. "...that king's presence and personality permeated literary society to such an extent that, almost uniquely, literature reflects the court." Would a (see, for instance, Smith pp. 1-3) hurt here? Marskell 11:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings from Bishonen, your Guide to the World of Spirits, now channelling Geogre, who can't currently log on to Wikipedia. He has asked me to post this reply to Marskell:

Marskell has a valid question. However, Restoration literature,like Augustan literature and the other omnibus articles I wrote, was, I hoped, an example of what a good encyclopedia article should be. It had a thesis and presented it honestly, with multiple discussions to back up that thesis. In other words, like a good article, it set forward a proposition and proved that proposition through the discussion that followed. Additionally, an author who leads on a massive article like that one and who has read all of the references (and, of course, between you and me, a great many more) is, by nature of such reading alone, if none other, an "expert" in terms of composition of the article. He or she should take a position. In other words, finding a single source to back up that statement would be difficult. I cannot cite myself and any work I may have done along these lines, nor would, but, at the same time, it's one of those statements that distills what "everybody" notes, one way or another, from Christopher Hill to E. P. Thompson to Paul Fussell. It's a statement that I think is a bit pithier than what most folks make but says what they say. Bishonen, speaking in the voice of Geogre (scary!), 14:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

This whole section of Wikipedia is becoming worrying, first rate pages such as this are being seized on and held to account for not being written in precisely the way someone who probably knows nothing about the subject would have written them. We are not all going to write our pages in the same way, with the same layout or reference in the same way. Restoration literature has a complete list of references and there are "inline citations" in the article, but they're parenthetical reference. It is pointed out quite correctly on the talk page WP:REF only requires that articles be referenced and footnotes are not mandatory unless a source is quoted. We should be judging articles on their quality not the number of footnotes they contain - This article is first rate. Giano 11:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh, I see I have already missed my chance to be first off the block.

Let me say for starters that this is one of the most complete, best written - in short, most excellent - articles on the whole of Wikipedia. If an article like this is not featured, we may as well give up and reconcile ourselves to creating the best encyclopedia on Pokemon and internet slang that the slashdot has ever written. At least this review will introduce it to a wider audience.

We recently had this very same complaint ("lacks inline citations") about the similarly excellent Palladian architecture (Wikipedia:Featured article review/Palladian architecture), and it seems a bit pointless to plough the same ground a second time. But I suppose we must...

No, this article has no dinky footnotes (shock horror! call the police!) but it does have inline citations where appropriate by way of parenthetical references. That is sufficient. Pace Giano, "footnotes are not even necessary where a source is quoted" (Smith 1999, p.1, emphasis added). -- ALoan (Talk) 12:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree totally with ALoan, Giano, and Geogre's statements, but unfortunately the norm for FAR these days is to require extensive in-line citations in order to retain FA status. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T13:48Z

Oh, gee, late to the party. Is there anyone left to notify? Mattb, without having looked at this article, I'll point out that disagreement over inline citations shouldn't be confused with sourcing an article to "oral history and tradition from groundskeepers"; the latter isn't about a lack of inline citations, rather a lack of reliable sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd suggest this is removed from FAR unless there are any concrete objections to it keeping its FA status other than the lack of inline citations. From mattb's comments on the talk page this review looks decidedly pointy. Yomangani^talk 14:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Untrue, I'm merely trying to help hold FAs to the standards that I perceive to be norm now. I obviously don't agree with this norm, but I can accept it if there's no support for changing it. Please don't assume that this is a result of my being upset about my own FARs (a ridiculous suggestion; I was the one who nominated them). Am I wrong in saying that inline citations are a requirement for FAs now? If so, by all means remove this FAR. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T14:32Z
    • Mattb, since your userpage says "he would have probably been better off as a history or English literature major", please give us specific examples of statements you want cited (note, I haven't yet read the article, but since you're the expert, your help would be appreciated). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Criterion 1. c. is concrete last time I checked WP:WIAFA. I 110% disagree with Yomangani on that point, and would heavily protest its FAR removal.

The Palladian architecture FAR was a pathetic farce, and one of the most unfunny jokes on Wikipedia. It's by no means excellent, nor is this. I'm frankly disgusted of the kind of joke that specific FAR was, and this one will seem to be. I hope Marskell isn't bullied this time into closing this one; by the way, and when people ask this time for specific statements that need citations I'm perfectly willing to give them - even though I'll be falsely accused of WP:POINT. 1. c. isn't met here, it's in black and white. Don't think I'll be bullied into keeping quiet like last time.

Oh, and before anyone goes on about Harvard citations, blah blah blah, there isn't any whatsoever in the article. The "References" section has just a list of books - no page numbers, no nothing, and even Harvard citations list page numbers. Finally, before anyone suggests I read WP:CIVIL (like is their two-faced, hypocritical trend), I recommend them look further into themselves before hypocritically accusing me. This is all I have to say on the subject - this isn't round two of the bullshit debate on inline citations, this is a review of whether this article meets criterion 1. c. This doesn't. LuciferMorgan 14:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, this is a lovely party you guys have going on here. I was going to contribute some two-faced bullshit or other, blah blah blah, but never mind, the to-do list is too long anyway. Bishonen | talk 15:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Lucifer, I don't recommend adding fact tags; it's Mattb's nomination, and his userpage says he's proficient in the topic—let him do it. The problem with the Palladian FAR was that the nominator himself didn't back up the request for citations; let Mattb back it up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aye, and the last time with the Palladian FAR a bunch of people were bullied around, and Marskell ended up wrongly closing the FAR. It seems the same suspects from that FAR are now trying to get this one closed also, and if I have to point out specific statements that need citation to avoid that happening, I will. This article fails 1. c., and I don't see why this FAR should be closed when a ton of other articles have had to strive their backsides off to meet 1. c. LuciferMorgan 14:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, WP:DICK has been mentioned; it would have been less of an issue if the original nominator had backed up the request for citations. Mattb wants citations, Mattb knows the topic; Mattb, please provide examples where citations are needed. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well long as this one doesn't end up being wrongly closed; I'll keep an eye on the page. I hope Mattb doesn't end up getting pushed around - it's something I disagree with and don't tolerate. LuciferMorgan 14:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Lucifer, I see no-one abusing you, hypocritically or otherwise. I see you arriving on this page full of hostility. Please tone it down and try and argue your point with some logic. Regarding your allegations Marskell was not bullied, The Palladian architecture FAR was not a pathetic farce, it was merely an argument that you lost. You say Palladian architecture and Restoration literature are " by no means excellent, nor is this" while I'm not going to comment on the quality of Palladian Arch in my view this is excellent. I don't come down hear to the basement of Wikipedia very often, but when I do all I seem to see is you shouting. Please try to improve your debating skills. Giano 18:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It would be untrue for me to claim significant proficiency in this area (my user page doesn't indicate WHY I would've been better off as an English lit major, and this isn't about me). However, per your reasonable request, here are a few that might be cited:

• Lead: "In general, the term is used to denote roughly homogeneous styles of literature that centre on a celebration of or reaction to the restored court of Charles II." -- Says whom? I agree with this statement, but the unacquainted might not.
  • "Thus, the "Restoration" in drama may last until 1700, while in poetry it may last only until 1666 and the annus mirabilis; and in prose it might end in 1688, with the increasing tensions over succession and the corresponding rise in journalism and periodicals, or not until 1700, when those periodicals grew more stabilised." -- Need some citations for these very particular statements.
• Under "The restoration and its initial reaction": "When Charles II came to the throne in 1660, the sense of novelty in all forms of literature was tempered by a sense of suddenly participating in European literature in a way that England had not before."
  • "Charles II was a man who prided himself on his wit and his worldliness." -- Should be easy to cite
  • "He was well known as a philanderer as well." -- Known by whom?
• "The Restoration is an unusual historical period, as its literature is bounded by a specific political event: the restoration of the Stuart monarchy." -- A very important point; deserves a citation
• "His Gondibert was of epic length, and it was admired by Hobbes." -- Provide a citation sourcing Hobbes' admiration

I can continue if you wish, but I don't want to clutter up this page unless you really want me to find every statement that should be cited. Other than this citation issue, it's a most excellent, thorough, and well written article. A bit of citation work and I'm sure this can retain its FA status. Let's not villify me, I'm only trying to uphold the same standard that is being retroactively applied to many FAs. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T15:03Z

• No villification intended, Matt - just pointing out that talk is cheap; reasoned action on difficult cases is harder. If you bring an article to FAR for lack of citation only, you should be prepared to back up the citation needs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair enough. If I really need to help point out every statement that might be cited, I'll gladly do so. However, I do think the other authors can extrapolate a bit in figuring out which factual statements should be verified in-line. -- mattb @ 2007-02-06T15:16Z
    • Well, I hate English almost as much as I hate architecture (should be evident from my tortured prose); I'm happy to put cite tags on medical, engineering, math, political or bio articles for example, but not here. I suggest you see how those requests go, and then add more as work progresses.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You know, the traffic in Dubai makes for a bad day. And I just knew I'd log back in and find a fucking mess on this review.

• I very much hope matt didn't post this as an exercise in point, but I will AGF and not remove the review. Remember, it's four weeks—at the worst nothing happens to the content, at best it improves (there's no perfect article, after all).

• And this is an excellent article.

• "...written in precisely the way someone who probably knows nothing about the subject would have written them." Giano (and anybody and everybody), please shelve statements of this sort. It's insulting, obviously, and you'll only ever be able to say "probably" because this is the internet and you could be posting to the Pope or a trained dog. Further, that Wikipedia is maximized for readers over editors, and a general audience over specialists, is a long-standing principle; the people who know "nothing about the subject" matter as much as the people who know a great deal (an ideal review would have both types commenting). It's excellent that this was written by someone with expertise in the topic, but it's still fair for someone to ask "can you unpack and/or source this cause I don't get it". To that end:

• I do think a group of a well-placed "see, for instance" notes would be good for an article covering this much ground at this level of generality. If everybody has said something, point to a spot that has said it well or at length. But perhaps discussing where to do that should wait until we get past the existential questioning of FAR that has (inevitably) come up.

• Oh, and Lucifer, we've gone over this: FARs don't get closed because of bullying. Marskell 18:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh, and Marskell, we've also gone over this; I think Palladian architecture getting closed was a joke, and no matter how many times you repeat your reasons for closing that one, I still think they happen to be rubbish. Many people didn't even comment because of people throwing their weight around on that FAR, and it was pathetic. Let's get one thing straight; this article currently fails criterion 1. c., and has time to improve it. If it doesn't end up meeting 1. c., it should get closed. I happen to think all the other closes you've ever made were correct, but that one definitely wasn't. And I clearly, 110% remember picking out specific statements that needed citation, only Giano point blank refused to cite them.

• As for Giano saying for me arriving on this page full of hostility, perhaps he should remember the bullshit crap he pulled last time with Palladian architecture (but he does remember, only conveniently forgets) - oh, but silly me, I forgot, every time he gets in trouble he actually gets his admin friends to help him out of bother. Silly of me to forget that oversight. In fact, I'm surprised they haven't popped over already to fight his corner - this FAR is early though, so I expect an appearance. Improve my debating skills? That's a laugh - as for FAR being "the basement of Wikipedia", you and your circle throwing your weight around are the basement of Wikipedia. I've been told via different sources about you, your antics and your Wikipedia friends bailing you out of trouble all the time, and I won't let you push me around like you did last time. LuciferMorgan 00:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]