Talk:Shusha: Difference between revisions

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The article says at present that Nersesov was Azerbaijani. Do we have a source on this, or it is a WP:OR? We certainly have sources on him being an Armenian. Grandmaster 18:04, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for bringing this our attention once again. Nersesov obviously wasn't Azerbaijani/Azeri, that's just a plain violation of WP:VER. Two proposals in line with Wikipedia's guidelines:

• "19th-century sources such as Mirza Jamal Javanshir Qarabaghi, Mirza Adigozal bey, Abbasgulu Bakikhanov, and Mirza Yusuf Nersesov, attest to the foundation of the town in 1750–1752 (...)"
• "Azerbaijani sources, including Mirza Jamal Javanshir Qarabaghi, Mirza Adigozal bey, and Abbasgulu Bakikhanov, and Mirza Yusuf Nersesov, attest to the foundation of the town in 1750–1752 (according to other sources, 1756–1757) by Panah-Ali khan Javanshir (r. 1748–1763), the founder and the first ruler of the Karabakh Khanate (1748–1822), which comprised both Lowland and Highland Karabakh.[50][51] Mirza Yusuf Nersesov, a writer of Armenian origin who grew up in Iran, served there as a civil servant, and converted to Islam (...)"

I think we should/could choose either one of these options. Or something similar along these lines. I listed these proposals some time ago as well.[1] PS: I haven't read the material written by Nersesov himself in detail, but if I recall correctly, the so-called narrative of him helping Panah-Ali Khan Javanshir was mentioned by Nersesov too. This might be valuable information that should/could perhaps be integrated into the article. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:24, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your suggestions LouisAragon. As I already said in AE where last time this was discussed, I'm fine with rewording as long as it's properly attributed, which the second version does. Best, ZaniGiovanni (talk) 09:39, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think the first version is better. This article does not need extensive details on Nersesov, his conversion to Islam and back to Christianity. The reader can find all these details about his life in the article about him. Grandmaster 19:40, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article says at present that Nersesov was Azerbaijani. Do we have a source on this, or it is a WP:OR? We certainly have sources on him being an Armenian. – Are these your words or not? Not sure what you're trying to say, second version addresses all the concerns, including why you opened this thread. While the first version fails on attribution, and with 4 of the 5 sources being Azeri, we sure do need proper attribution. Those sources aren't just your regular "19th century sources", that's not how we attribute Az or Arm sources.

And the reason Nersesov is attributed as well is because he isn't just your typical "Armenian view/source", which was also discussed extensively in this AE case. If I remember correctly, you didn't comment after a prolonged discussion regarding Nersesov, and I don't wish to repeat what I already said in that case. Hence, considering all of this and our previous discussions, second version suits better. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:52, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to the rules, we must write what the sources say. The sources say that Nersesov was an Armenian. Any alternative claim requires a source. No source means we have nothing to talk about. And second version is no good because it still lists Nersesov as an Azerbaijani, with no proof, and adds personal details unrelated to the town of Shusha. We can start an RFC on this, but I think it would save people's time if we resolved this without getting larger community involved. Grandmaster 10:30, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And second version is no good because it still lists Nersesov as an Azerbaijani – hmmm, where in 2nd version can I find this lol? I don't think "a writer of Armenian origin" means Azerbaijani, you need to read carefully.

and adds personal details unrelated to the town of Shusha. – It's part of the attribution and it's fine to me, I already stated why multiple times. Nersesov needs proper attribution if you want rewording. Alternatively, if you don't like these “details”, why do you want his ethnicity to be mentioned at all? For Az sources (especially when 4 out of 5 are such), I think it's important to list that well... those are Azeri sources and not just some random “19th century sources”, but I don't understand how Nersesov's ethnicity is relevant here. I would support the second version with no mention of Nersesov's ethnicity if his “details” are what's bothering you. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Second proposed version starts with Azerbaijani sources, including Mirza Jamal Javanshir Qarabaghi, Mirza Adigozal bey, Abbasgulu Bakikhanov, and Mirza Yusuf Nersesov. Why is he listed as Azerbaijani, when he was an Armenian? And what do Nersesov's conversions to Islam and back to Christianity have to do with the history of Shusha? It is enough to link to the article about him. I also don't see how his ethnicity is relevant here, he is just one of the 19th century sources that wrote about foundation of the town. Which is why I proposed as a compromise not to mention ethnicity of those chroniclers. Alternatively, the part on Nersesov should look like: Azerbaijani sources, including Mirza Jamal Javanshir Qarabaghi, Mirza Adigozal bey, Abbasgulu Bakikhanov, as well as Mirza Yusuf Nersesov, an ethnic Armenian writer who grew up in Iran, served there as a civil servant, converted to Islam, and back to Christianity upon his return to Karabakh .... The question is, why does the article about the town of Shusha need all those details about this person's life in Iran and his religious conversions? What useful information about the town does it provide? Grandmaster 21:20, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's called proper attribution? And you were explained why in this AE case, please don't ask the same questions again. You didn't have anything to say back then, and after I and a third party user explained the reason Nersesov isn't just an "Armenian view/source", you're asking the same questions again.

Which is why I proposed as a compromise not to mention ethnicity of those chroniclers. – That's not a compromise, 3 out of 4 sources are Azeri and they should be attributed properly. Saying "19th century sources" doesn't cut it.

Second proposed version starts with Azerbaijani sources, including Mirza Jamal Javanshir Qarabaghi, Mirza Adigozal bey, Abbasgulu Bakikhanov, and Mirza Yusuf Nersesov - That seems to be a typo I guess because Nersesov is listed after that sentence. Was it a typo LouisAragon? I think the second version was intended to be written this way:

• "Azerbaijani sources, including Mirza Jamal Javanshir Qarabaghi, Mirza Adigozal bey, and Abbasgulu Bakikhanov attest to the foundation of the town in 1750–1752 (according to other sources, 1756–1757) by Panah-Ali khan Javanshir (r. 1748–1763), the founder and the first ruler of the Karabakh Khanate (1748–1822), which comprised both Lowland and Highland Karabakh.[50][51] Mirza Yusuf Nersesov, a writer of Armenian origin who grew up in Iran, served there as a civil servant, and converted to Islam (...)"

Neresesov's later re-conversion to Christianity isn't relevant here because if I'm not mistaken, his work was done while he was essentially an assimilated Iranian Muslim. And alternatively, we can just leave out his ethnicity because Nersesov's ethnicity isn't relevant here:

• "Azerbaijani sources, including Mirza Jamal Javanshir Qarabaghi, Mirza Adigozal bey, and Abbasgulu Bakikhanov attest to the foundation of the town in 1750–1752 (according to other sources, 1756–1757) by Panah-Ali khan Javanshir (r. 1748–1763), the founder and the first ruler of the Karabakh Khanate (1748–1822), which comprised both Lowland and Highland Karabakh.[50][51] Mirza Yusuf Nersesov (...)"

Bottom line is when 3 of 4 sources are Azeri, we need proper attribution and stating that oh "19th century sources" hold this view doesn't cut it, those aren't some random 3rd party sources (which that wording can certainly imply), those are Az sources. Only Nersesov technically isn't Azeri but isn't the typical "Armenian view/source" either, hence either we attribute him properly given the context or don't mention his "details" at all. I'm trying to compromise, and either of these two are fine to me. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note that Nersesov wrote his work more than 20 years after his return from Persia to Karabakh, and conversion back to Christianity. By that time he was already a Russian citizen, and his work was part of the Russian government's efforts to document the history of the region, same as other Karabakh-nameh written by other Karabakh natives. Grandmaster 15:17, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ZaniGiovanni: It indeed was a typo, thanks for letting me know! - LouisAragon (talk) 21:56, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I'd chose option #1 myself. Mostly because a) this article is about a specific city b) Much of the content in this article is already really obscure to the average Wikipedia reader; we should keep it as concise as possible. If no one objects, I will adjust the content per WP:BOLD. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:08, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree. It is better to keep the article focused on topic. Grandmaster 15:17, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm fine with not mentioning Nersesov's details, but I believe it should be attributed and noted that most of the sources are Azerbaijani because as I already said, 3 out of 4 sources are in fact Azeri. The first option doesn't address this and just says "19th century sources" which isn't a proper attribution and can give a false impression, i.e. that the claim is supported by 3rd party 19th century sources as an example. To address this issue, the following would be my suggestion as a compromise, with no details of Nersesov:

  • "Azerbaijani sources, including Mirza Jamal Javanshir Qarabaghi, Mirza Adigozal bey, and Abbasgulu Bakikhanov attest to the foundation of the town in 1750–1752 (according to other sources, 1756–1757) by Panah-Ali khan Javanshir (r. 1748–1763), the founder and the first ruler of the Karabakh Khanate (1748–1822), which comprised both Lowland and Highland Karabakh.[50][51] Mirza Yusuf Nersesov (...)" ZaniGiovanni (talk) 15:53, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • But then we should mention that Nersesov was Armenian. We have no sources to say otherwise, and we cannot engage in OR. If we go into details about those local sources, it makes no sense to mention ethnicity of some and leave it out for others. Grandmaster 09:15, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    But then we should mention that Nersesov was Armenian. We have no sources to say otherwise, and we cannot engage in OR. - There is no OR when we don't mention any of his details. And for all I know, he could be mentioned as a Qajar source.

    If we go into details about those local sources, it makes no sense to mention ethnicity of some and leave it out for others. – It does actually make sense, because 3 out of 4 sources are Azeri, stating 'Azerbaijnai sources' is a correct attribution. Meanwhile, I don't see how Nersesov's details are relevant here, he's just one source from 4 sources, and there isn't a reason to mention his ethnicity at all. And as I said, he could be stated as a Qajar source for all I know, but that isn't relevant either. Leaving out singe author's irrelevant details (as you said yourself) is correct, but when overwhealming majority of sources are in fact Azeri, attributing them as such is more than suitable. Hope this helps to understand the difference. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:50, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Nersesov was not Qajar, he was Russian citizen at the time of writing his work. According to sources, he was Armenian. We should either mention the ethnicity of the authors according to sources, or not. It is simple. Grandmaster 10:58, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The sources do need proper attribution but there is an easy fix to all of this. My suggestion is simply adjusting the word order to make it clear that Nersesov wasn’t Azerbaijani. For example;

Azerbaijani sources, including Mirza Jamal Javanshir Qarabaghi, Mirza Adigozal bey and, Abbasgulu Bakikhanov, as well as, Mirza Yusuf Nersesov, attest to the foundation of the town in 1750–1752…

Easy fix with proper attribution given and doesn’t go into excessive detail. TagaworShah (talk) 13:51, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with this. Not any details apart from mentioning that 3 of 4 (majority) sources are in fact Azeri, and manages to keep that relevant attribution. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:21, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that TagaworShah's version makes it clear that Nersesov was not an Azerbaijani. Mentioning Nersesov's actual ethnicity will. I think we should mention that Nersesov was Armenian, because that is what the sources say. Mentioning ethnicity of some and omitting it for this one person makes no sense. I really do not understand the problem with mentioning this person's ethnicity, despite the sources being very clear about it. As a compromise, I proposed to not mentioning ethnicity of any authors, but if that is not acceptable, then we need to mention ethnicity of all authors according to reliable sources. Or we can start another RFC and ask Wikipedia community about it. Grandmaster 11:02, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because Nersesov is a single author and his details as you even said yourself aren't relevant. Your issue so far seems to be "why we attribute Azeri sources then", which I already explained multiple times. If the overwhelming majority of sources (3 out of 4) are in fact Azeri, it's more than suitable to attribute them as such, while Nersesov is a single author and a single source, his details aren't relevant. And TagaworShah's version does make it clear that Nersesov isn't an Azeri, quote: "Azerbaijani sources (listing sources),... as well as Yusuf Nersesov...", this is basic English, how it isn't obvious that he clearly is outside of listed Az sources? If you want to run another RfC that's fine, but I'm sure most of the people would agree that if 3 out of 4 sources are Azeri, there is nothing wrong with attributing them. And mentioning a single author's ethnicity who grew up in Iran, happened to have Armenian origin etc., is in fact irrelevant to this article. If you would still want to run an RfC for some reason, please don't forget to include Tagawor's version and your preferred 19th century version, so we don't have another error like in the List of monuments page. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:29, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TagaworShah's version doesn't change much. Maybe "19th century sources such as Nersesov, as well as Azerbaijani sources from the same period such as ..." fits better? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.219.167.10 (talk) 11:50, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think that saying “19th century sources” just for Nersesov is necessary, it’s also implies that there are other non-Azerbaijani 19th century sources that agree with him which I haven’t seen, yet if any arise maybe we can consider something along these lines. TagaworShah (talk) 14:15, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The vast majority of Russian sources from the 19th century say the same thing as Mirza Jamal or Mirza Adigozal. But let's do an RFC and ask the community for help. Grandmaster 19:13, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]