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{{close In regards to the treatment of Mr. Molyneux Wikipedia fails today and has failed from inception to be neutral on the subject. Wikipedia would have it that Mr. Molyneux was a fringe personality aka Nebbish in 2009 to the very reincarnation of Adolph Hitler in late 2021!

My suggestion is that a consensus be reached to either 1) remove this entry entirely as Mr. Molyneux is totally irrelevant or 2) correct the neutrality of the entry.

From 2009

Stefan Molyneux (born 24 September 1966)[1] is a blogger, essayist, author, and host of the Freedomain Radio[2] series of podcasts, living in Mississauga, Canada. He has written numerous articles and smaller essays which have been published on liberty oriented websites such as LewRockwell.com, antiwar.com and Strike The Root, recorded over a 1300 podcasts and written numerous books which all are self-published except for his first which was published by Publish America. In 2006 Stefan Molyneux quit his previous job in the field of computer software to be able to work full-time on Freedomain Radio, a philosophical community website which is completely funded fans of his work through donations and subscriptions of extra media and forum sections.

Now in Late 2021

Stefan Basil Molyneux (/stəˈfæn ˈmɒlɪnjuː/; born September 24, 1966) is an Irish-born Canadian far-right white nationalist[2][3][4] and white supremacist[5][6] podcaster, blogger, author, political commentator, and banned YouTuber, who promotes conspiracy theories, scientific racism, eugenics, and racist views.[7][8][9][10][11][12] As of September 2020, Molyneux has been permanently banned or permanently suspended from PayPal, Mailchimp, YouTube, Twitter and SoundCloud, all for violating hate speech policies.[13][14][15][16][17]

Molyneux is described as a leading figure of the alt-right movement by Politico and The Washington Post, and as far-right by The New York Times.[18][19][20][21] Tom Clements in The Independent describes Molyneux as "an alt-lite philosopher with a perverse fixation on race and IQ."[22] Molyneux describes himself as an anarcho-capitalist.[18]

Multiple sources describe the Freedomain internet community as a cult, referring to the indoctrination techniques Molyneux has used as its leader.[23][24][25][26] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 04:08, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

--- Those sources are obviously polemical. Read what the authors write, they are obviously click bait political hacks. Is Daily Wire a legitimate source?

""The Laundry List of References may indicate a lack of NPOV, and the judgement-conclusion in the first sentence reflects a lack of NPOV""

Twenty references used in the first sentence is a laundry list supporting a conclusion that Molyneux is a white nationalist, white supremist. The laundry list is in itself an argument to support the conclusion and therefore is not presenting neutral information in a neutral tone. The subject is being lambasted with an irrefutable list, a laundry list. We really don't know the reasoning as to why he was de-platformed and the major social media networks intentionally don't provide a reason for doing so.

A fact about Molyneux is that he was de-plaformed. That fact in itself is neutral. Molynenux engages in rhetoric which resulted in his de-platforming.

Have you any sources for your changes?

And no we will not either change it or delete it. We will change it or keep it as it is.Slatersteven (talk) 17:02, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, the reason we have a laundry list of sources is the constant claims to provide RS calling him this. Technically they should not be in the lead, but rather used in the body.Slatersteven (talk) 17:04, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And we do know why RS said he was deplatformed, we go with that RS say.Slatersteven (talk) 17:09, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• When it comes to public figures like Mr. Molyneux, we have to reflect what the sources say, even if the article's subject might dislike or be unhappy with it. And the fact is that his promotion of white supremacy and conspiracy theories is what he is most notable for and has extremely heavy coverage - more than enough to satisfy WP:BLP. --Aquillion (talk) 21:36, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What I have found 1) The Southern Policy Law Center presents a chronology of Molenuex's rhetoric along with an analysis of his methodology.SPLC Research Re Molyneux - Position Paper 2) The same type of Chronology can be seen on the wikipedia page of David Duke 3) A big difference between the two is that Molenuex churns out a huge amount of rhetoric and Duke is less esoteric 3b) the SPLC speaks to the amount of rhetoric as a propaganda strategy 4) Opinion and Research - The SPLC piece is both research and opinion - it cites example to present an argument. 4b) None of the articles cited speak to fact - they just parrot . 5) When I looked at The numerous sources cited in the first lines of Wikipedia article they share the same quotations and they derive from an event which is de-platforming; they don't even contain references of the primary source that can be found in SPLC - the source that argues that Molyneux is "evil" ; The CEO of Britannica speaks to this; "We live in a world where we’re actually consuming more information, but processing less and less information. When you look at how the search and social engines work, it’s based on popularity — what are people likely to click on? And scandalous information — not the truth kind of information — seems to be the one that’s coming to the top. 6) The reason fact and NPOV has to be established is that the tone of this article has a parallel to McCarthyism - although repeated Ad nauseam in external sources and then cited here; the conclusion being drawn is an argument without proof or substantiation; The motivation of Molineux might be profit, followers, narcissism, mental illness, or just pure rhetoric. He might believe what he believes; He might be making arguments to absurdum 7) What is your responsibility here? I don't think it has been met. It has to be toned down to neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 02:54, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

His statement to counter the public condemnation - The right to defend yourself in light of public opinion or condemnation is essential to a free society '

Race The major human races diverged tens of thousands of years ago, and had to adapt to very different environments – from brutal Siberian winters to the lush dangers of the tropics.

These varied environments posed unique challenges to our evolution, and gave each race its particular characteristics. Some people refer to these as “strengths” and “weaknesses,” but I strongly oppose such judgments.

Evolutionarily speaking, the words “strengths” and “weaknesses” are mostly meaningless – especially when talking about different environments. All creatures strive their best to adapt to their local environments.

I do not believe that any race is “superior” or “inferior.” I accept the biological facts that some racial differences exist, because philosophy teaches us to accept facts – even if they make us uncomfortable. (The virtue of intellectual courage is only required when contemplating uncomfortable facts.)

Philosophy also teaches us to avoid judging individuals by group averages – although women may be shorter than men in general, you can never prejudge any individual woman as being shorter than the average man.

I would love nothing more than to live in a world where we treated people as individuals – Martin Luther King’s dream of judging people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin – but there is a growing group of people who claim that all differences in outcomes for various groups result from (usually white/male) bigotry, and that is an unjust and incorrect claim.

Although there are many talented Chinese basketball players, we would not expect the majority of professional players to be Chinese, for various historical, cultural, and physical reasons.

Average tested IQ levels vary among different ethnicities – again, we must never judge individuals by group averages, but group averages nonetheless exist, and play at least a part in social and economic outcomes.

I have always believed – and taught – that human beings can only resolve conflicts via reason and evidence. We can only meet and find peace in reality – not in ideology or fantasy or wish fulfillment or rage or, strangely enough, in the racial prejudice that results from denying average group differences.

I talk about these issues because I wish to help de-escalate increasing ethnic tensions and hostility, so we can have a reasonable conversation about these issues without coming to open violence, which will be our inevitable destination if these conversations continue to be suppressed.

I believe in equality before the law and reject any and all laws based on race. No race should “rule” or dominate any other race.

Eugenics is a government program that uses force to control people’s reproductive choices and is utterly immoral.

I am not an “ethno-nationalist” but an advocate for a stateless society. In a truly free society, people can live however they choose, as long as they do not initiate the use of force. The violence required to create an “ethno-state” would be a monstrous violation of the non-aggression principle, and should be utterly condemned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 04:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Of course he denies it, most racists do. But he is not an RS for what he is. At best we can say "but he denies this".Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is the solution "At best we can say "but he denies this" <-because then there is balance aka NPOV in this article: its impossible to know what people believe and its impossible to refute what people believe - that is why the David Duke article is more professional; Duke actually does things in the real world which can be monitored and are part of a chronology; Molineux a creature of rhetoric and he has thousands and thousands of hours of bloviation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 15:36, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why we go with how RS (and particularly those who study the subject) interpret it. They will have studied his rhetoric, and compared it to what others say.Slatersteven (talk) 15:44, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, inserting a blanket denial ("but he denies this") would be useless, see Wikipedia:Mandy Rice-Davies applies. TucanHolmes (talk) 13:53, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At 'Slatersteven': Your logic here is utter nonsense.

For your information, I came here to find out who Molyneux is, for I had never heard of him. I scanned the opening wiki paragraphs, discerned that they display smear language, and immediately clicked on 'talk' to see if any others have been repelled by the language. Quite apparently, many have. It is ironic that in the excerpt of his own self description, posted on this talk page above, I find what I came for - a brief summary of his stated position on things.

Now he may be in many ways a hypocrite - I do not know. But I am not stupid - what he writes is not a denial. He is not rebutting anyone. He is simply asserting the beliefs he holds. Any man is nothing more and nothing less than what he himself says and does. Certainly there may be incongruity and even contradictions in those truths, but they remain the fundamental truth. What others think may be of interest, but it is not central. That there are apparently many tertiary sources that are severely critical of him is most appropriately documented under a section entitled 'Reception' or 'Criticism'.

Indeed, if you wish to shine light on a man's contradictions, it is best to factually document those contradictions by juxtaposing and sourcing his own conflicting statements. Ad hominem linguistic bullying with vague opinionated labels like 'racist' and 'white supremacist' only cast a shadow on you, at least in the eyes of any thoughtful person. If you wish to use such words, they must be presented in a neutral point of view context.

For example, you might demonstrate and source a contradiction, and then state "as a consequence, some have classified him as racist", being careful to cite sources refering to those who have so opined. It is not incumbent upon you to proffer the opinion yourself, nor is it legitimate to simply parrot another's opinion, however well sourced. That is heresay, and invariably, there will be those who hold opposing opinions, however heinous an individual may actually be. By using the word 'some', you, as an editor, remain neutral, and allow for the possible existence of dissent. Thereby you maintain the integrity of the article and wikipedia as a whole. Indeed, if the contradictions, as well as opinions expressed by others, are overwhelmingly numerous, you could be justified in using the word 'many' instead of 'some', while still preserving your neutrality and the integrity of wikipedia.

In conclusion, I find this particular wikipedia article to be incredibly sub-standard. Articles like this, that sacrifice objectivity and neutrality in service to the current vogue for neo-liberal propagandist language (neo-conservative propaganda is equally anathema) degrade the credibility of the wikipedia as a general reference source. In fact, in these times, I have concluded that many who scream 'racist' most loudly are, in fact the most racist among us, or worse, they are the true fascists: utterly intolerant of views that deviate even slightly from their own.

This is your encyclopedia now. I stopped editing it years ago. Surely you are intelligent enough to understand the principle of 'a house divided against itself can not stand'. By systematically traveling the path you have taken in the last decade, you only move closer to a world in which the wikipedia is untrusted and irrelevant. 2001:569:5202:1900:29BD:23B0:5B0C:F7BD (talk) 06:46, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Posted to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Stefan_Molyneux

So typical ... immediately deleting a coherent disinterested call to actually serve the interests of wikipedia users. You waste the time of your user base Mr. Slater. It can lead no where good.

2001:569:5202:1900:29BD:23B0:5B0C:F7BD (talk) 07:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

(Immediately reposted with addendum after nearly immediate summary deletion of the original post. Edited with clarifying and explanatory addenda the next day - thank you for not deleting the remarks a second time, as I half expected to find.)

It seems I spoke too soon. The second deletion has now happened.

Alas, maybe I can get through to a man who seems to use precisely the tactics that WP:NOTDUMB and Civil POV pushing, as well as other policies try to prohibit. Indeed Mr. Slater, it seems to me you are WP:Wikilawyering. In your note to me on 'my' talk page you project your own behavior on me, when I have done none of the things of which you accuse me. In fact, I have read more of the wikipedia guidelines than most editors I've encountered over the years. I'm thoroughly familiar with the policies you cited to me.

That I no longer edit is an irrelevant point. I am a wikipedia user, and I value a wikipedia that maintains a neutral point of view, where I can efficiently answer simple questions without wasting enormous amounts of time wading through prejudicial tripe. I am in no way 'threatening' you to "get my way". I merely point out that the user base is also "not dumb". People are smart enough to see when a presentation is biased, and even now on this talk page, there is plenty of evidence that some care enough to point out that bias. Inferior articles genuinely degrade the reputation of the wikipedia.

As for "reliable sources" (wp:rs) and "original research" (wp:or), I am not in any way suggesting that these policies be ignored. I am making quite reasonable suggestions about how you might maintain a neutral point of view by more strictly adhering to these very policies.

It is clear to me, having read this talk page, and having read your personal talk page, that you have an agenda and distort wikipedia policies to suit your agenda. This is the projection you are imposing on me. I am not trying to "get my way", while it is apparent that you have repeatedly done that with the history of this article. Ultimately, I do not care what happens to this article. I came here for an answer, and I got my answer. I really don't care about Molyneux. I do not defend him and I do not disclaim him.

I do care about a credible wikipedia and a positive user experience. It is entirely appropriate to address you directly here on this page, for any intelligent reader can see from the material that is already here, let alone the deletions in the history, that wikipedia policies are being grossly abused in the bullying of other potential contributors and the prejudicial presentations. I am in ACTUAL FACT, discussing the content of this article. This IS a terrible article. It is one of very minor importance, and I suppose that is why you can get away with your behaviour. Few would care enough about the topic to seriously oppose you. Indeed I myself do not care about the topic. I am addressing you directly because it seems to me, you are the one who is excluding others from making any suggestions, let alone contributions. That degrades all wikipedia editors. It is wrong behaviour.

If you can not contain your prejudices, perhaps you should recuse yourself from editing controversial topics. In any event, summarily deleting legitimate criticism of the article clearly violates wp:talk policy. Civil discussion can only occur when there is tolerance of suggestions made by others. I don't expect to "get my way". I do expect to be respectfully heard and I expect my suggestions to survive long enough for other editors to view and discuss them.

I see that you are retired and on vacation. I am also retired, not just from employment, but also from the wikipedia. Ironically, had you simply allowed my original post to stand, I would have quietly gone my way. At this juncture, I am tempted to re-enlist as an editor solely for the purpose of filing a formal complaint against the violations of wikipedia policies that are apparent in this article's history. No, that is not a 'threat'. It is completely within my rights as a former editor and is a possibility that conforms with current wikipedia policy. I'll have to think about whether it is worth the trouble. 2001:569:5202:1900:CD50:BD21:8FBB:DE24 (talk) 20:51, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Normally I'd just make the edit without bothering to ask, but this is the sort of article where consensus is needed for every detail.

The stuff about Tom Bell is a) relevant and b) in here twice. Should it be in the "de-fooing" section, or the "cult" section? DS (talk) 02:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

good point , moved. Slatersteven (talk) 09:26, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]