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Wow look at the article I just found: [1]. Apparently french intelligence forced an admin to delete an article. What is the WMF going to do? nerdfighter 18:32, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See "Wikimedia Foundation elaborates on recent demand by French governmental agency to remove Wikipedia content" (French wiki, but in English) 88.104.27.58 (talk) 18:49, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Here's the quote from Wikimedia France.

  the DCRI summoned a Wikipedia volunteer in their offices on April 4th. This volunteer, which was one of those having access to the tools that allow the deletion of pages, was forced to delete the article while in the DCRI offices, on the understanding that he would have been held in custody and prosecuted if he did not comply. Under pressure, he had no other choice than to delete the article, despite explaining to the DCRI this is not how Wikipedia works. He warned the other sysops that trying to undelete the article would engage their responsability before the law.
  
  This volunteer had no link with that article, having never edited it and not even knowing of its existence before entering the DCRI offices. He was chosen and summoned because he was easily identifiable, given his regular promotional actions of Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects in France.
  — Christophe Henner, Wikimedia France

  It's a concern. 64.40.54.111 (talk) 21:22, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt one has much to be concerned about there. John lilburne (talk) 21:48, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The equivalent English Wikipedia article (Military radio station of Pierre-sur-Haute) has been nominated for DYK. This reminds me very much of the situation we had a couple of years ago with the Seal of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. As on that occasion, I've suggested that the DYK nomination should be accepted but its publication be delayed for a couple of months to allow the controversy to subside. It's being discussed at WT:DYK#Controversial self referential DYK nomination. Prioryman (talk) 09:01, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another DYK: For many years, the BT Tower was not shown on Ordnance Survey maps, despite being one of the tallest and most prominent buildings in London.[2]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:00, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that both you, and Wikipedia's BT Tower article, repeat that piece of nonsense (in reality, a lie made up by Kate Hoey in 1991) says more about Wikipedia's preference for anecdotes over facts, than it does about any alleged attempted cover-up. It takes all of 10 seconds on a map archive (old-maps, for instance; the coordinates are 529121,181972) to see that the Post Office Tower (as it was then) has appeared on Ordnance Survey maps since it was built and no effort was made to conceal the fact that it was a strategic location even at the height of the cold war; the 1968 OS map, for instance, has it labelled as "Telephone exchange and radar tower". Getting facts wrong in good faith when they're difficult to verify is understandable; repeating lies when they're so easy to refute is inexcusable. – iridescent 22:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The claim is widely repeated, and I don't think it's disprovable from old-maps.co.uk. An old OS printed map, if you have access to it, would be a source worth sticking in the article. Rd232 ^talk 12:27, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This map. One of the 1:1250 series. I'm sure somebody can identify its publication details. — Hex (❝?!❞) 14:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On this 1982 London tourist map, it is descibed as the Telecom Tower.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• French secret service accused of censorship over Wikipedia page. The Streisand effect in action once again.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:14, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I personally feel that this incident would justify a blackout protest. It seems to me to be more serious than the incidents that have motivated previous blackouts. Looie496 (talk) 17:42, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blackout protest, and this thread should be re-created as an request for comment and placed in centralized discussion. Wer900 • talk 17:50, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Don't feed the french intelligence.. nerdfighter 18:00, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Come on, we're not going to have a blackout over this. It would be massive overkill, frankly. This has the feel of a one-off incident, not a systematic threat like SOPA was. The Streisandification of this article is likely to be its own disincentive to any public body thinking of doing anything like that in future. Prioryman (talk) 18:08, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)Woah woah, take a step back folks before things get out of hand. Obviously this is a very serious issue: which is exactly why it needs to be left to the foundation to deal with at the moment before we go making plans for this and that--Jac16888 ^Talk 18:09, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think the WMF's top priority should be to ensure that there are ways for any admin in any country pressured in this way to secretly but effectively let them know if they are forced to do something under duress, that can reliably lead to a "coincidental" response by well-meaning volunteers that happens to undo the forced action without anyone knowing that the admin told anyone. The French mistake, which is highly unexpected, could be said to be that they forced the admin to do this without threatening him into silence about it. That differs from the way that National Security Letters on US ISPs work, for example. We should consider that France might differ from other countries only in this omission, rather than in the request, unless proven otherwise. Wnt (talk) 19:04, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting possibility. Could it be that this has in fact happened before, but it never came to public attention? I can't imagine it happening on the English Wikipedia, but I can certainly envisage it happening on other-language wikis where admins are located in undemocratic countries (Russia and China come to mind). Prioryman (talk) 19:08, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But definitely not on Kazahk wikipedia.Volunteer Marek 19:42, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you say that? I think it could easily happen on the Kazakh Wikipedia. Everyone who is working courageously to build a quality NPOV encyclopedia in countries which do not respect fundamental freedoms is at constant risk of this sort of thing. The shocking thing about the French incident is that one does not expect this kind of nonsense from a generally rights-respecting country like France.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:50, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it could happen on the Kazakh Wikipedia but seeing how much Kazakhstan respects fundamental freedoms and the close relationship they have with the WMF I'm sure the French are much worse. A bit more serious: when stuff like this happens with a country like France it's exposed, picked up on, and everyone becomes aware of it. When it happens with countries like... Kazakhstan (and yes, probably China and Russia too), there's really no one there to pick up on it and you don't even know it's happening. In other words, it's not shocking. In places like France, corruption happens and it gets caught (sometimes) and everyone becomes outraged (as they should). In 80% of the rest of the world, corruption happens and nobody really cares. But you're drawing the wrong lesson from that.Volunteer Marek 01:33, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting lie, to say the word "WMF" and link to an independent organization. There is no relationship between the WMF and Kazakhstan at all, and I have and will continue to speak loudly against censorship and intimidation in all countries. Trying to smear the WMF like that, with a dishonest link, is disgusting, and you should apologize for it. Notice, too, how fundamentally dishonest your sarcasm is. "seeing how much Kazakhstan respects fundamental freedoms" - the implication here is that either I, or the WMF, has in some way been soft on Kazakhstan's violations of the principles of human rights. That's just an absolute stone cold lie. The important thing for people to wonder, when confronted with such a blatant lie, is this: what is the motive of the smear? What is the motive of the liar? Why don't you explain that to us all - why are you insinuating things that are provably and demonstrably false? Did I, or the WMF, ever say or imply the Kazakhstan "respects fundamental freedoms"? No.

If all you wanted to say was "One reason this case has gotten a lot of mainstream media attention is that it's so surprising. If it happened in an authoritarian country, there would be less interest, and that's a shame" then I would chip in and say: that's exactly right, and that's exactly why I spend so much of my time trying to work for freedom of speech in every country of the world. That you utterly fail to appreciate or understand why attacking me on this idiotic and dishonest basis that is wrong is a huge flaw.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:35, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the Wikipedia article I linked to says "Wales gave his own grant to WikiBilim as a contribution to the development of the Kazakh Wikipedia.[2] The Wikimedia Foundation has given the organisation a $16,600 grant raised from donations to the Wikipedia site. Contributors to Wikipedia in the West have raised the question of whether the foundation and Wales should be supporting WikiBilim in light of the backing it has received from the Kazakh government, which has been responsible for closing down independent media outlets in what Human Rights Watch describes as a "growing crackdown on free speech".

I was incorrect in implying that WMF has a close connection with Kazakhstan though, you're right about that and I'm happy to apologize for being imprecise. But there is a sort of transitivity here - Kazakhstan government appears to have a close connection with WikiBilim and WikiBilim appears to have some relationship with WMF. I mean, I guess one could argue that WikiBilim is an independent organization. Or that the connection between WMF and WikiBilim is tenuous. Ok. That should probably be clarified in the relevant Wikipedia article, as, given the current wording, I don't think that's how an average reader would perceive it.Volunteer Marek 01:59, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the apology. I have said in no uncertain terms both publicly and privately that the government of Kazakhstan should not expect to be able to control Wikipedia. I have also said that I think it is problematic that they have received funding from the sovereign wealth fund of Kazakhstan. But I've also done what many others have not - I've actually talked with Wikibilim about their stance on the issue and how they deal with it. In short: they don't edit Wikipedia directly in an official capacity (some of their employees do edit at home because, naturally enough, they are free culture activists), they have only 2 employees who have anything to do with Wikipedia at all as a part of their job duties, and their work in support of Wikipedia involves primarily going out to conferences of academics to encourage participation. I'm very concerned about issues of freedom of speech, and I find the Kazakh government's human rights record to be very concerning overall. But I can also understand and empathize with the desires of volunteers working under difficult conditions to be able to fund projects, and I can understand that in environments like Kazakhstan it's hard to do anything without government funding or approval of some kind. The important thing is that any funding that is received in that way must come with no strings attached, and the overall situation has to be monitored carefully to ensure that the things people like me worry about don't actually happen. I think it's very very wrong for people to blindly swallow the nonsense implications of critics who state the facts in a very misleading and sometimes even flatly dishonest manner.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, you clearly state that "I think it is problematic that they [WikiBilim] have received funding from the sovereign wealth fund of Kazakhstan". You also say that "I've actually talked with Wikibilim about their stance on the issue and how they deal with it". You also say that "I find the Kazakh government's human rights record to be very concerning overall". Here is a question for you. Can you point to even one public statement or utterance or diff of yours -- prior to December 15, 2012 -- that would underscore your personal and focused concern about WikiBilim's relationship with the Kazakh government or its sovereign wealth fund? I provide that date as the cut-off, because that is about when the so-called "nonsense" critics brought the Kazakhstan situation to your attention, and there doesn't seem to be any record of your ever having expressed any of the concerns you describe passionately above, prior to the "nonsense" being brought to light. I will flatly apologize if you can find one, just one, unequivocal statement of yours that expresses concern about WikiBilim and the Kazakh authorities, from before December 15, 2012. - 2001:558:1400:10:C15D:99B9:C1C1:6CF8 (talk) 20:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. How could I have commented on WikiBilim's receiving funding from the Kazakh government before it was brought to my attention? If you are asking why I never publicly criticized Kazakhstan's poor track record on freedom of speech before, I can only say that I doubt if I've ever publicly commented on, say, Belarus's poor track record either. I have said, clearly and plainly, that I strongly support the fundamental right of freedom of expression for everyone on the planet, but I haven't gotten around to specifically commenting on every single country in the world. If WikiBilim had asked me before they took that money if I thought it was a good idea, I would have said no, I think it's a mistake. I would have tried to get them the money from a better source. The "nonsense" that I refer to is not that people raised the question - there are, as I have said, many reasons to question things like this, and many concerns that have to be addressed. The nonsense involved such things as dark hints that Tony Blair had something to do with it, or that I might personally be benefitting from it, etc. That was then, and remains now, complete crazy talk.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:07, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, I'm sorry if the question was so confusing that you weren't able to understand it. Let's try again.

June 16, 2011 - WikiBilim receives a letter of support from the CEO of the Samruk-Kazyna Foundation, providing financial sponsorship to WikiBilim. A press conference announces this to the world, with participation of Ting Chen, then the Chair of your Wikimedia Foundation, Jimbo.

June 20, 2011 - The Wikimedia Foundation holds a board meeting via IRC. Ting Chen and you were both in attendance. Did Ting Chen mention his trip to Kazakhstan or the press conference that had taken place just days before?

August 3, 2011 - The Wikimedia Foundation holds another board meeting, this time in person, in Haifa. Ting Chen and you were both in attendance. There was a "Personal Activities Update", where "each Board member was granted 2 minutes to provide their colleagues with a personal and Wikimedia-related work update." Did Ting Chen mention Kazakhstan? Did you mention your plan to announce a "Wikipedian of the Year" award at the next few days' Wikimania summit in Haifa?

August 4-7, 2011 - You named the head of WikiBilim as "Wikipedian of the Year" and awarded him $5,000 of your own money. At this point, did you still not know "WikiBilim's receiving funding from the Kazakh government" because this was still "before it was brought to your attention"? In other words, Jimbo, is it possible that you selected such a prestigious award as "Wikipedian of the Year" without investigating and learning how the recipient's organization was being funded? Did you ask Ting Chen about his participation in the press conference about 7 weeks prior, to learn more about WikiBilim, to which you were about to hand a $5,000 check; if not, why not; or were you not aware of Ting Chen's participation in the Kazakh press conference?

Could you please comment on which of the following is more true -- (A) At the time you awarded Rauan Kenzhekhanuly (of WikiBilim) the "Wikipedian of the Year" award, you had only cursorily understood the connections between his organization and funding from the Kazakhstan government, but you went ahead with the award anyway; or, (B) At the time you awarded Rauan Kenzhekhanuly the award, you had no understanding of any possible connection between his organization and funding from the Kazakhstan government? Note that neither of these premisses nor the questions above mention Tony Blair or any other red herring subjects, so please just address the questions without trying to widen the discussion. Clarification of these points would help for some of us not to be called "liars" by you when we discuss matters that we didn't have visibility into. Thank you. - 2001:558:1400:10:B5EB:9417:83C0:16AC (talk) 13:37, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't know, but I guess you wouldn't either, since you can't spell it... Prioryman (talk) 19:47, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You and Greg Kohs need to hang out more together. Correcting minor spelling mistakes of others and feeling all smug about it as a way of building heavy concrete bridges into a shiny new tomorrow where Wikipediocracy people and anti-Wikipediocracy people walk hand in hand together singing songs about how you get to make money of a public encyclopedia because you guys are such gosh darn good spellers.Volunteer Marek 01:33, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, I've started a straw poll to propose that the appearance of this article on DYK (if it is accepted) should be delayed by three months from the date that the nomination is accepted. Please see WT:DYK#Proposal to delay publication of Pierre-sur-Haute DYK for three months and feel free to add your views. Prioryman (talk) 06:24, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to report that I've voted oppose on your proposal, and that it appears to be going down in well-deserved flames. There is no place in our work to permit this kind of intimidation and we need to put the governments of the world on notice that you don't easily censor Wikipedia and that we will fight for our values.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:46, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is rather different from your attitude towards the FBI seal issue back in 2010. Let me quote you on that: "Here is what will happen if we run this DYK on the front page: nothing much. The FBI won't do anything new or different. The press might or might not notice, and if they do notice, it'll lead to a couple of new stories at most. I'm not at all concerned about pressure from the FBI or the press - it isn't about that. It's really more about preserving the idea of NPOV and really taking it seriously. It's recognizing that running this on the front page *in reaction to a news story about the Wikimedia Foundation and the FBI* is not our style. If we were a tabloid newpaper, we'd likely take up the (very popular, as far as I have seen) cause of fighting the FBI on this, poking them about it daily. But we aren't like that, and we shouldn't be like that." (User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 63#Here is what will happen if we run this) You also said "I rather said the opposite: posting the contested logo to the front page would be clearly political, and Wikipedia should not be political." Yet here you are making an explicitly political argument for running the DYK. Your attitude has changed a bit, hasn't it? I guess this means you now consider Wikipedia to be "a tabloid newspaper" and are no longer interested in "preserving the idea of NPOV and really taking it seriously". Prioryman (talk) 00:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I do not consider Wikipedia to be a tabloid newspaper, I am am 100% in favor of preserving the idea of NPOV and really taking it seriously. And yes, I have changed my mind on this issue to some extent. I'll note as well that the FBI sending an idiotic takedown demand is a very very different matter from summoning a volunteer to the office of a security service and intimidating them into deleting something under threat of being detained. Had the DCRI kept this to wrangling with the WMF through lawyers, I'd say: there's nothing to get excited about. But they crossed a line that I find shocks the conscience, and so in this case, I do not think that a presumptive ban on the DYK hook is warranted.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:03, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is Wikimedia's legal team looking at the legality of the agent's/agency's behaviour? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 04:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Jimbo, do you have any sense of whether the WMF plans to take stronger action than the rather wimpy message we have seen? Is there anything useful we plebians can do to press for stronger action? I feel that it is very important to respond strongly to those police-state tactics, and that the world press would support us if we did. Looie496 (talk) 04:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see anything wimpy about the WMF response. But what additional response do you recommend? I agree with you that strong response is very important.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't any further response be redundant? The blistering Streisand effect has taught the officer involved and the agency everything they need to know about that kind of behaviour. Did the officer involved or the agency break French or EU law? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:11, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What we need to get somehow is more press coverage. There have been a few stories, but they have missed the central point, focusing on the demand to delete the article and burying many paragraphs down the really outrageous thing, which was intimidating an uninvolved volunteer into carrying out the deletion. Regarding the Streisand effect, people who are familiar with the American or British systems may not understand the degree to which government functionaries in France (and Italy, Spain, etc.) are unresponsive to anything except orders from their superiors. Looie496 (talk) 02:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea whatsoever of what to do, but... I ask the WMF and Jimmy Wales, to consider the implications on the personal security of French admins of the French language WP. Most of all, I ask that you do not place THEM at risk to uphold YOUR beliefs. No matter how much I do agree with your beliefs - and in this case I completely do - I can not stop thinking what if it was the Portuguese intelligence doing that? Would I be threatened tomorrow? What would some smart guy in the US do for me? Write a post? You must think of something better than that. And a remark, here we go, with people asking for blackouts - that was the worst idea you ever supported... You weakened your - our - position as a institution looking to share knowledge, but with no "political party"-like activity. I hope it will not hurt us, and someone in France, now. - Nabla (talk) 23:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that you believe that statement is untrue due to your close relationship with the subject of the article, now as I already said, the statement itself is cited, and verified which means as far as wikipedia is concerned it is true

Quote without comment. Ken Arromdee (talk) 18:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

thank you for correcting my "understanding" or better said how I phrased the matter, I have clarified my position and requested further comment if you would care to give me your insight into the matter.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:41, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your reply, I will take that to heart.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:40, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. Please draw your attention to the situation with Internet censorship in Russia. Several days ago it became known that at least one Russian WP page was blacklisted, but the situation worsened when official documents received by Wikimedia RU showed that Suicide methods and Vaporizer (drug) were censored too. I think that the situation need your intervention. Thank you in advance, Ain92 (talk) 19:37, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just out of curiosity, what intervention are you suggesting? According to Google translation of that link above, "We would like to remind that this list can become the reason for preventing access to Wikipedias in Russian, English, and potentially - in other languages, given that the current mechanisms of page blocking on the side of the content provider only make it possible to block the access to the whole site. Even though we shall suggest the editing communities to modify the articles, the risk of keeping the list of suicide methods in the article dedicated to this encycloped ic subject is sufficiently high." Logically, it seems like there are three possibilities here:

• a) Wikipedia slavishly kowtows to whatever the Russia government wants taken out, of which this is likely only a small portion as their freedom of press continues to fade away. (Imagine how that will play when Kazakhstan makes the same demand...)
• b) Wikipedia stays blocked in Russia forever. A shame, because Wikipedia could be a democratic force, but on the other hand, in a future Cold or other War, we might be glad if the Russians have less background in the sciences.
• c) The Russian ISPs figure out a way to block only the pages they were told to block after all. At which point nothing has been lost but what we would have given up trying to implement #1 anyway, and for that, there are thumb drives.

So under what scenario does it make sense for Wikipedia to do anything to accommodate the Russian demands? (On the other side, it may not be necessary to stage a site blackout...) Wnt (talk) 21:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For me, being blocked is always preferable to collaborating with censors. It's important to understand that the fear of site-wide blocking is based in concerns that some (smaller, presumably) ISPs may lack sufficient technical resources to block individual pages, forcing them to block the entire site to comply with the law. Believe me, if those ISPs block the entire site, while other ISPs only block specific pages, the ones which block all of Wikipedia will lose customers very very quickly. We are not weak, we are very powerful. Catering to the demands of weak and cowardly politicians - the kind who fear the spread of knowledge - is not the Wikipedia way.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

and people find ways around blocks pretty easily anyways... -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 00:05, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! n:ru:Джимми Уэйлс: Подчиняться давлению слабых и трусливых политиков — это не путь Википедии. --sasha (krassotkin) 08:15, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The ISP concerns are not very correct. There are many talks in press that per-page blocking (they say, "Deep Packet Inspection") is impossible and only per-site blocking is used. And blocked sites (there are many so far) show major backbone ISP logos such as Rostelecom and Beeline even if you use some local sub-providers. So, provider switching probably won't work. --ssr (talk) 18:59, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

well, encryption is supposed to defeat deep packet inspection. siply putting https in. not sure if it actually works, but it goes to show, there's almost always some way to bypass blocks. -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 03:08, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

These are reasonable tech-talks, but the real "baseline" dialogue currently sounds like: "GOV: We gonna block this particular page according to law // WMRU: We only can edit the article according to our rules and US laws // GOV: We've seen you edited the page and it looks OK for us". This is slightly different from French gov story, and WMF lawyer was answering them in the most correct way, so tried WMRU. --ssr (talk) 07:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly tempting to say that we are dealing with "political censorship" in Russia, but I'd like to remark that, frankly speaking, nothing more than information about drug-making and ways of committing suicide is being blocked. We may think of it as a sort of prologue to purely political demands, but at the moment Russia's actions are completely legal. The country has signed the European convention of human rights, which states:

ARTICLE 10

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

--194.242.5.23 (talk) 07:33, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, to which Russia signed up in 1998. In practice, Clause 1 offers freedom of expression, while Clause 2 allows the state to move the goalposts wherever it chooses. Article 10 is nowhere near as strong as the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:18, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I know. Sure, US Constitution is prior for Wikipedia. I mean to stress the fact that certain persons tend to describe the situation in dark colors, saying that big terrible Russia is imposing illegitimate laws driven by fear and cowardice of its government which is afraid of freedom of speech; such ideas are not exactly correct, and Russia has the right to set such restrictions in terms of international law. Therefore, personally I won't call that "censorship". --194.242.5.23 (talk) 09:28, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is censorship, plain and simple. It is an illegitimate law and it is driven by fear and cowardice.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:35, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I'm Эйхер. I wanted to let you know that I undid one or more of your recent contributions because it appeared to be promotional. Advertising and using Wikipedia as a "soapbox" are against Wikipedia policy and not permitted. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you. Excuse me, sir, but your unwary comments are likely to make a disaster in Russian Wikipedia (not because of possible blacklisting, but beacause they have made many users, usually temperate, to forget about rules and goals of the project and to put themselves into political battles). It isn't especially neutral to call foreign legislation illegitimate, even it is far from be wise indeed. I actually didn't undo yor comment, because I believe it would be impolite on user's personal talkpage. I hope you do it yourself. With kind regard, Эйхер (talk) 17:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Russia is banning encyclopedic articles about chemical substances, for heavens sake! How is that not censorship, not illegitimate? Saudi Arabia banning the Wikipedia article on Theory of evolution, China banning the article on Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, Russia banning Wikipedia articles on Amphetamine and Methamphetamine, and France deleting a Wikipedia article about a widely known "secret" military radio station (that is sourced on TV interviews with its commander and publically available information): Is this Wikipedia in the new internet? It's censorship. --Atlasowa (talk) 13:15, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

State censorship is not a welcome thing, obviously. But we also shouldn't wash our hands in terms of maintaining responsible content in sensitive articles. It's nowhere near as bad as I remember when I last looked at it, but I'm still not sure whether Suicide methods is a better article for containing information about what the best drug is for overdosing on and how someone might be able to get hold of a version of it, even though it is not generally available in most countries. I'm also not sure its a good topic for a fork in the first place. Formerip (talk) 12:40, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Our responsible and thoughtful editorial judgment must always come first, yes. We should strive for factual, neutral, high quality information. In the current situation in Russia, entire topics of human knowledge have been declared off limits for discussion. This is a deep human rights violation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is populist and biased statements about human rights in Russia. English-speaking civilization is far from perfect too. New state which change the World and make it a truly free and united will be created by Netizens and will be Russian-speaking. ---Zemant (talk) 02:05, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo is correct. There are some who say that it is not "censorship" if censorship is done against illegal material. There are others who say that it is not "censorship" if censorship is applied by a private company as a matter of business strategy. If we believed them all then censorship would be a meaningless word useful only for thinking forbidden thoughts. We should instead use the word according to its plain meaning.

I should explain to those interested why I feel it is important to provide information on these topics, specifically methamphetamine synthesis, which I edited and considerably expanded from January 23-29 of 2012. (encompassed within [3] - but as it happens, the Russian version cited by Roskomnadzor never incorporated any of those changes anyway!) The immediate cause for this editing was that I read an article about how hospital burn wards were being driven out of business by uncompensated expenses from hordes of amateur "meth cooks" who managed to very severely injure themselves with a popular one-pot synthesis for the drug.

My first goal in editing was to make the method by which injuries occur more understandable. Namely, the synthesis involves taking a large amount of lantern fuel, mixing in lithium that reacts strongly with water, and keeping it all in a soda bottle that has to be periodically "burped" to keep it from exploding. The result of any contact with air is that the lithium, which may already be sparking in the lantern fuel, sets it off as it sprays out in all directions. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is quite strict about copyright, or I would have tried to have included some key snippets of the spectacular YouTube videos distributed by police to make this more viscerally understandable.

However, to be clear, this was not the only consideration that crossed my mind. While the information I put in the article was by no means a complete how-to recipe, it provided useful references, though I feel certain that anyone serious would have found them as quickly and easily as I did. It is possible that some readers would see how readily the information was available and read further, and attempt the synthesis, however unwise that might be. That is in some ways an obviously bad thing. But on the other hand -- these syntheses are routinely performed by major crime cartels. They will of course maintain the needed information and practical expertise no matter what the law is. Should I accept that this knowledge is now and forever the property of the criminal syndicates, and encourage a policy that would help them to maintain control of the market? I think not.

While editing the section, I actually felt almost as if I were practicing narcotics enforcement, but in a more effective way than the government. I can't barge into a cartel stash house and seize their product. But if I can reduce the specialness, the commercial value of their secret knowledge by making it more public, if I can punch some holes in the careful control that they and the government work together to maintain over the supply in order to inflate prices and profits, then I can have a similar effect. The difference being that if the government raids a stash house today, the cartels will provide to the customers tomorrow, but if random people reading Wikipedia really do try to produce their own supply, then the cartels never see that money back. And of course if they don't then there is nothing to be worried about morally in the first place. Indeed, I would even argue (though with less confidence) that I believe that the profit motive is what fuels not just the production of these drugs, but their marketing and ultimately their consumption, so that if the flow of profit is damaged by legalization or any lesser means, I think their overall use in the population will decrease. Wnt (talk) 18:52, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, "Better Living Through Chemistry knowledge" is a major part. Perhaps more could be done to describe the price-drop in some legalization efforts, where the cost of legalized drugs became 20x times less, with less need to steal money to support a medical-addiction habit. That could be contrasted with cases, opposite, where the legalized prices rose due to monopoly tactics. In areas where cigarettes are banned, then the price for a rolled cigarette can be 20x-30x times higher than legalized sales which also allow for medical regulations or repeated health warnings. Every bag could say, "Heavy use of street snow is linked to brain damage similar to Alzheimer's". In the past few years, Wikipedia's coverage of dope-related illnesses has greatly expanded. And more could be written. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"we might be glad if the Russians have less background in the sciences." [for lacking access to WP for, presumably, a few years] (by Wnt). Please, more jokes! Do you really think that Russia needs WP to keep science going on? Wow! - Nabla (talk) 23:26, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, admittedly, no - just as I don't think that blacklisting Wikipedia will stop Russians from making methamphetamine, or pursuing other less painful methods of suicide. But if there is an effect to be had it is a good effect, across the board. The truth is always true, and never leads astray. Wnt (talk) 02:31, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK, the Press Complaints Commission Editors' Code of Practice says "When reporting suicide, care should be taken to avoid excessive detail about the method used." 5, ii) The concerns about the Russian Wikipedia articles were based initially on WP:NOTHOWTO issues, but have degenerated into old fashioned censorship and battle lines being drawn over freedom of speech.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:22, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly enough, there's a suggestion in the French press this morning that the French judiciary might order ISPs to block access to the Pierre-sur-Haute military radio station article. [4] No idea if this will actually happen, though - it would seem a bit pointless at this stage. Prioryman (talk) 11:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is like a sad Inspector Clouseau revival. "I arrest you all in the name of the law!" Tarc (talk) 12:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Today, the MediaWiki software was upgraded to 1.22wmf1 (7bb4399), and this includes the quicker Scribunto interface to make Lua script functions start much faster. During the next few days, there might be some minor performance problems in various gadgets, or such, as they are adjusted for the upgraded software. However, the preliminary tests have revealed that the Lua-based wp:CS1 cites are reformatting, today, at over 185 per second, versus only 14 per second for the markup-based cites of last year (185/14 = 13x faster). Compared to the March Lua performance, typical wp:CS1-style citation footnotes now reformat ~50% faster. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:47, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is fascinating. Thank you for this update, and as well for all the technical updates you have shared with us here in the past months. I don't always remember to thank you for them, but please know that I really like hearing about this stuff.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:22, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, in most cases, there wasn't much to discuss... just waiting and waiting for the better technology to be installed, rewriting templates to run faster, waiting for templates to be upgraded, and then getting Lua reconfigured to run smoothly. But now, the future is finally here. We have "re-treaded" Wikipedia's sneakers to reformat most pages as quickly as major computers formally processed a typical customer transaction. And now, we have reached the point where our "templates" not only rapidly reformat the text, but they will begin to read paragraphs and suggest better wording for editors to insert (or auto-correct obvious cases; see: talk of wp:CS1 cites), for numerous special-case problems. Analogous to "connected speech analysis" we can have Lua-based templates which scan for trigger phrases, or even rapidly split a paragraph into separate words and analyze the use of each word, but within the limits of what an editor wants to consider, when editing the text. This technology enters the realm of "measuring" NPOV-neutral text, perhaps by counting superlative or negative words, or counting repeated use of specific source websites, to remind editors to be sure the balance reflects the viewpoints of many major sources about a topic. These smart templates will begin to look at the wording and suggest better alternatives. However, our first priority was just to re-tread the prior technology, to restore the speed of editing back to become a comfortable human-level of interaction, as in the early years of Wikipedia. Finally, a new day has dawned. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]