Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch: Difference between revisions

See also related discussions and archives:

• Wikipedia talk:Avoid weasel words
• Wikipedia talk:Avoid peacock terms
• Wikipedia talk:Avoid neologisms
• Wikipedia talk:Words to avoid

Some users seem to be circumventing WP:TERRORIST by using the term in category and article names rather than in the bodies of articles, is this allowed? Gob Lofa (talk) 15:22, 19 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Gob Lofa:, probably not. Examples? Faceless Enemy (talk) 03:34, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First this is a guideline, not a policy, and secondly it refers to people and groups, not events. I saw your comments at Talk:List of terrorist incidents in London#Move. You wanted the article moved to "List of incidents in London labelled as terrorism." Even if the guideline applied the effect of your change would be to imply that there were some sources that did not consider the attacks to be terrorism, which violates policy. TFD (talk) 06:32, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It does heavily imply that the people and groups who we say do the acts we categorize as terrorist acts are terrorists. But yeah, it's not technically against the rules. So it comes down to a question of whether there's encyclopedic value to grouping things labelled as terrorism (which is what the category is, regardless of its title).

As this is merely the Manual of Style, I'll not answer that question here. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:01, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

My original preference with the London article was to replace the word 'terrorist' with 'VNSA', which is descriptive without being value-laden. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:32, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think it does that. Compare with crime. We could say crimes committed in the U.S. last year included x number of DUIs. It only violates the guideline when we start labelling anyone guilty of DUI a criminal. In "Modeling Violent Non-State Actors", the authors say that "terrorist organizations" are a form of VNSA. It seems like an improvement over current terminology that labels every non-state group the U.S. opposes as terrorists. But it has its problems too, beyond being fairly obscure. Why are insurgents who oppose U.S.-backed governments called VNSAs, while U.S., backed insurgents are not? What about U.S. paid mercenaries? TFD (talk) 03:26, 25 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First I've ever heard that term. I guess whether it's value-laden depends on whether you're more afraid of terror or violent acts. But yeah, its American-only context isn't great for something about London. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:29, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Gob Lofa, in Faceless Enemy's post of 03:34, 24 February 2015 (UTC) s/he asked, "Examples?" I know that I have developed Category:Organizations designated as terrorist and Category:Designated terrorist organizations associated with Islam although perhaps these should more accurately be moved to Category:Groups governmentally designated as terrorist and Category:Groups associated with Islam governmentally designated as terrorist organizations as per common name and re reference to the nations making the designation. If you have a problem with editor action please cite the cases and perhaps ping the editors involved. Please also specify how you think editors have been circumventing WP:TERRORIST. The title of the page is "words to watch". GregKaye 08:24, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One of the usual disputes regarding political articles often has to do with identifying organizations or persons with political labels. Always when I've seen done as POV-pushing, it has been so that editors with a conservative slant want to mark the opponents as liberals and the editors with the liberal-slant want to mark the opponents as conservatives. A 2013 Daily Telegraph article calls these kind of labels "health warnings" [1]. The purpose is similar as with weasel words: "oh, the critics are just some liberals". It shouldn't be due to refer to a foundation as conservative/liberal on every occasion, but on the other hand sometimes labels are required for presenting a dispute in a thorough way, and the result is fine if the editor is careful. Usually when it's done in a disruptive way, there's a number of unrelated low-quality sources bundled together to make the claim for the label, i.e. "is a conservative author [1][2][3][4]".

Does anyone know has this ever been discussed at MOS, and should something about it be drafted? --Pudeo' 05:25, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a WP:MOS issue at all; it's not a style matter, but a WP:NPOV policy matter. On that, I think this is a case-by-case kind of thing. With many topics, it is important for readers to be able to discern left-wing vs. right-wing bias. The problem comes up either when actual facts are being POV-labeled as just opinions advanced by "the other side" (as often happens in the global warming "debate", which isn't really a debate but science met with denialism), and/or when views are labelled as being exclusively those of "the other side" but we don't have reliable sources that demonstrate this. (For example, some leftists may be tempted to skew an article on US gun control by suggesting that support for the Second Amendment emanates from a conservative agenda; in reality, millions of rural Democrats are also gun owners, even if the Republican party takes a louder political position on the matter, and as a party converges on that support more cohesively.)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How do the principals of avoiding words like claim apply in topics about supernatural events? Do we assume that the credibility of experts of supernatural things is in question due to the nature of the paranormal?--Prisencolinensinainciusol (talk) 23:28, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Prisencolinensinainciusol please note that the guideline is called, WP:Manual of Style/Words to watch and that it begins, "There are [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not censored|no forbidden words or expressions on Wikipedia]], ..." The first WP:PILLAR is the intent to build an encyclopaedia and the WP:CLAIM issue is presented as a guideline. GregKaye 08:35, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• The big problem here I guess would most likely relate to miracles broadly construed. So far as I know, there is nothing in any policies or guidelines which prohibits use saying, for example, that a qualified medic has described an apparently miraculous cure as a miracle. However, at the same time, we probably should not include any such statements indicating the belief in something being of supernatural origin in wikipedia's voice, but rather in phrasing like "according to (x), it was a miracle" or supernatural event. There would of course be basis for an exception for broadly religious or supernatural stories in which the events are either explicitly described as supernatural in some way or obviously intended to be seen as being of a supernatural nature. John Carter (talk) 17:09, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, it's PoV-pushing to advance an interpretation that something supernatural was even meant in the first place when someone says "miracle" or "miraculous" outside of a clearly religious context. These words are most often used to simply refer to the improbable. When I say "It was so dark and cloudy, it's a miracle it didn't actually rain today", I certainly don't imply anything religious. It's not WP's job to infer value-laden meaning, or to impute mental processes (e.g. a medic's actual spiritual beliefs, to use the above example), for which we have no reliable-source evidence.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:17, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Propose adding myth and mythology to the content on "words to watch" in WP:LABEL in regard to all uses of the word. I don't intend by this that the words be excluded from use but just, if alternative presentations can be given, then these should be considered. This is in line with the general spirit of the article which begins with the text: "There are no forbidden words or expressions on Wikipedia, but certain expressions should be used with care, because they may introduce bias."

At present the text of WP:LABEL begins, "Value-laden labels ... may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution."

In the thread immediately above I have suggested that this can read, "Value-laden labels ... may express contentious opinion and [may be] best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution."

This proposal follows a long discussion at: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion#Disambiguations of divinities in which continued and unanimous opposition was given to the use of the disambiguation "... (mythology)".

The problem here is perceived WP:SYSTEMICBIAS in which present day faiths seem to be automatically classified as "religions", "faiths" etc. while previously practised faiths get regularly classified as "myths" and "mythologies". Words like "folklore" regularly don't even get a look in. My contention is that practitioners of present day religions have established bias by being instrumental in developing the description of prior forms of belief as myth.

According to the online Oxford dictionary definition of: myth, there seems to be no major problem with the first definition.

1. A traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events:

If this was viewed in isolation there might be no problem as the word might be considered to neutrally present a narrative on a religious theme. I am not sure when or how the second definition definition was developed/was first used but I consider this to present the problem.

2. A widely held but false belief or idea:

The result, I think, is that present day religions are falsely differentiated from previous faiths.

I think that the problem here goes far beyond a mere #Expression of doubt but that the usage goes as far as to WP:ASSERT falsity when the same stance is not adopted with present day faiths. See the articles Creation myth (which I am not necessarily arguing against) and Genesis creation narrative for examples of this.

A positive way forward I think would be actions such as to favour links such articles as Ancient Greek religion as opposed to Greek mythology. This, I think, would reduce current discrepancy.

I will notify the religion and mythology wikiprojects of this discussion. GregKaye 11:47, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think this imposes a bias where none existed before. The religion wikiproject has basically unilaterally decided that mythology belongs to them, and the only valid point of view from which to study mythology is a religious one. Those of us interested in the historical, anthropological, artistic and literary aspects of traditional storytelling are apparently wrong and can just pack up and go home. You may have unanymity in the religion project, but you have not given other points of view a chance to respond before moving articles.

My own particular interest, Irish myth, shows up the problems with your approach. I note you have moved a handful of Irish mythological characters from "(mythology)" to "(Irish folklore)", but this shows a degree of ignorance of the subject as these are primarily literary, not folkloric, characters. Pre-Christian mythological stories stopped being passed on orally quite early and were preserved by an elite class of antiquarian monks trying to reconstruct what they thought of as a historical narrative that would support their Christian religious foundations and the ruling dynasties they lived under (and were probably mostly part of). These stories have always had secular as well as religious purposes - as do the myths of other cultures. --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Nicknack009 you are right in pointing out that I have tackled the topic from a religious angle and, when I initiated the well supported thread: Disambiguations of divinities as an RfC, I only did this with notification to the religion and philosophy board. In hindsight I should have also notified the history and geography board as I have done here.

However, I have also posted on the Mythology wikiproject board to inform of threads/actions in an effort to try to keep things inclusive. All the moves that I made were within categories of gods and godesses and with the three folklore examples that you mention being found within Category:Irish gods. There remains, as I see it, a POV issue with content in a sphere involving religion and belief where words that can be interpreted with negative connotations such as myth and mythology get attached. As far as a "words to watch" approach is concerned then I would hope that nothing would be overly prescriptive but, if a disambiguation such as (Irish literature) would work, this might pose a neutral option. There are plenty of authors that have written about supposed deities along a spectrum from perceived non-fiction to the penning of wilfully fallacious tales and, in this context, words like literature may make no or little judgement. Myth and mythology, however, are not neutral words. They have a shade to suggest fallacy and, within the parameters of dealing with religious topics, I think that they should be words to watch.

GregKaye 20:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Myth" has a technical, non-pejorative meaning that you're ignoring - not to mention that "religion" has negative connotations, to the extent that Christians of my acquaintance insist that Christianity is not a religion. Give me a good myth over a religion any day. But frankly, it's bad enough that we're increasingly told we can't speak frankly about active religious beliefs for fear of giving offence, without extending that oversensitivity to the traditions of people and cultures long dead. Language policing is annoying enough in the social and political spheres without bringing it into scholarship. --Nicknack009 (talk) 21:21, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Nicknack009 and oppose this proposal. This isn't a religious issue. There is no need to make it one. Egsan Bacon (talk) 20:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nicknack009, you have ignored my open presentation of both definitions clearly presented above. Are you saying that people do not associate myth with falsity? My conjecture is that they most certainly do. There is a one sided bias of the terminology of myth is only applied to faiths that, for whatever reason, have fallen out of currency. GregKaye 22:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Egsan Bacon of course it is a religious issue. Modern faiths with, arguably, no greater justification than faiths of the past are treated as religions and this all happens in a context in which faiths of the past are described as myths. There is no balance. GregKaye 21:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I said earlier that "The religion wikiproject has basically unilaterally decided that mythology belongs to them". You're still doing it. While there is some overlap, "mythology" and "religion" are not synonyms, and you need to understand the distinction. Mythology is a body of traditional storytelling, which often has a religious purpose (among other purposes). Religion is a body of ritual practices and beliefs, which often involves myths. As an example, Christianity, a religion that is currently practised, has a body of mythology, including parts of the Bible, which are part of the religion and are read, recited and studied as part of religious practice, as well as stories like the Harrowing of Hell, Paradise Lost and Jesus Christ Superstar, which are not. Likewise, the worship of Dionysus was part of ancient Greek religion, but Euripedes' The Bacchae, a major source for the mythology of Dionysus, is a secular work of art that has been interpreted as a criticism of traditional religious practices, and very likely expressed veiled political concerns. Mythology is not simply dead religion, and invoking religious sensitivity on behalf of mythology in the name of "balance" doesn't make any sense. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:53, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I regret to say that I agree with Nick here. As the person who created both Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/Encyclopedic articles and Wikipedia:WikiProject Mythology/Encyclopedic articles, both of which are based on some of the better encyclopedias directly relevant to their topic, I would very very much argue that the one project has attempted to take over the other, just that, for better or worse, most articles fall within the scope of both of them, and the religion project is more active. And also, of course, as Nick says, mythology is about the stories of a religion, not about the religion itself. Particularly in the older religions, where aspects other than the stories themselves aren't given as much attention, like forms of worship, theology, structure of worship, there is a lot of overlap, because the stories of any religion are of significant importance to that religion. And, yes, a lot of articles and topics do appear in both lists, particularly the names of entities who are included in the pantheons or broader belief systems of a religion. Would I mind in any way the WikiProject Mythology becoming more active again? Not in the least. Does its comparative inactivity make it necessary that the more active WikiProject Religion basically be told "hands off"? No, because, from what I remember, most of the editors involved in one project were also active in the other. John Carter (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone's telling the religion project "hands off". It's good and right and necessary that there's input into mythological topics from the religion angle. It's just important to remember that other angles exist and we need their input as well - and we shouldn't go framing language in such a way as to exclude them. --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:07, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I think we should only use "myth" and "mythology" when necessary and simply be more specific otherwise. Both terms are widely used in an academic, non-pejorative manner but the definition of myth can vary greatly from scholar to scholar, and it does have pejorative semantic element, especially in colloquial English. It's also often reserved for anything that isn't a "living religion". Of course, we're using the term in an academic sense, not a colloquial manner, but I think that the solution to this issue is to simply to be specific wherever possible. I don't think [DEITY NAME (mythology)] is ever an appropriate disambiguation for these reasons. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:55, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think Nicknack009 makes some excellent points, and :bloodofox:'s suggestion here is basically sensible. The words "mythology" and "myth" should be used carefully and advisedly. Bad: "The Egyptians thought that Osiris was king of the underworld, but that is only a myth." Good: "In Táin Bó Cúailgne, a key work of Irish mythology, the hero Cú Chulainn has a number of encounters with deities such as the Morrígan." Ancient religions need to be understood on their own terms, not in terms laid down by modern-day religious sentiment, no matter how ecumenical. Q·L·1968 ☿ 23:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose proposal. Just don't use it in the pejorative layman's sense, but only in the scholarly academic sense. This is too central a concept in the study of religion for it to make sense to consider a problematic word - it would be impossible to write about religion and to follow the usage of the sources.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:05, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: In the current text of WP:LABEL, I already find "Avoid myth in its informal sense, and establish the scholarly context for any formal use of the term." That sounds appropriate to me. (Has it just been added?) It might be worth adding "mythology" to that sentence; otherwise, I'm not sure what the proposal is meant to do. GregKaye's made clear that counting it as a "word to watch" doesn't mean banning it from our lexicon, just cluing people in that there's a wrong way to use the word. Q·L·1968 ☿ 23:20, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The "myth" aspect was already a part of the WP:LABEL guideline. Flyer22 (talk) 20:09, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's fair to say we should be careful with the word "myth", as it does have the meaning "something that a lot of people think is true, but isn't". I really don't think there's any need to worry about "mythology", which only has one meaning. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:24, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. I agree with Nicknack009. Paul August ☎ 11:49, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment It seems to me that this is a debate over a word that potentially has consequences for many words. To a large extent it depends on what we assume to be the distinction between English and "Simple English", I for one can distinguished in "legend" between a legend on monument and an urban legend, but ought the editors of Wikipedia expect Wikiepdia readers to know of that distinction? At what age group and educational level is this encyclopaedia aimed? This is covered to a limited extent in MOS:JARGON and the essay Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable (although I think it is hoisted by its own petard "typical level where the topic is studied (for example, high school, college, or graduate school)". What is a high school, college and graduate school? These are dialect expressions and words! If we assume that it is acceptable to use a term such as "high school" then should we assume that Nicknack009's reasonable use of myth is acceptable? -- PBS (talk) 13:03, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per Nicknack009 and everybody else. Introduces a bias that did not exist before. --Mr. Guye (talk) 17:07, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Related concern This seems part of a larger program the broadly replace the term "mythology" with the term "religion", for example the following edits (inappropriately in my view) replace "Greek mythology" with "ancient Greek religion": [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]. These are only a few of what seems to be many many more. I would respectfully ask that these edits be reverted untill we can come to consensus concerning proper usage. Paul August ☎ 15:00, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a very odd substitution since mythologies only form part of religion, any religion is much more than its mythologies.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Maunus that any religion is much more than its mythologies, and that's precisely why "mythology" should not be used where we mean "religion". The Gaia and Pontus edits for example seem perfectly reasonable, even if these articles do lean heavily on mythology. Q·L·1968 ☿ 16:20, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am not aware of either Gaia or Pontus having any central relation to Greek religion (i.e. cult, rituals) they seem to me to be solely characters within the mythological complex, in the same way that Queen Jezebel and King David are not central figures in Christian religion, but in Christian mythology.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They don't have to have a central relation. We're talking about a polytheistic religion; it's inherently pluricentric. Pausanias says that the oracle of Delphi belonged to Gaia originally (Description of Greece 10.5.5); the same writer mentions sanctuaries, temples and/or altars of Gaia at Athens (1.18.7), Phila (1.31.4), Sparta (3.11.9), Olympia (5.14.10), Ægæ (7.25.13), and Tegea (8.48.8). Gaia is offered prayers and libations by several characters in Æschylus' Libation Bearers, generally on behalf of the dead. Aristophanes gives an invocation of Gaia, among other deities, in Thesmophoriazusæ. (This and further information available at theoi.com.) On the same website's page on Pontus, you can see two depictions of Pontus on mosaics. Mythology is one aspect of religion; iconography, cult practice, and divination are others. Neither Gaia nor Pontus is restricted to mythology, but are part of a wider milieu. Q·L·1968 ☿ 19:09, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That is a reasonable argument that I would be happy to concede, blanket changes of mythology to religion I would not.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:26, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There I completely agree. Such changes should be thoughtfully considered, not made willy-nilly. Q·L·1968 ☿ 19:56, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment in the first discussion started as related to this topic, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion#Disambiguations of divinities, I have now presented large contents of references from the Encyclopaedia Britannica, in comparison to which, parallel Wikipedia content inconsistently and yet predominantly presents a far greater emphasis on mythology. One of earliest points that I raised in my original post was the gender discrepancy in which female divinities were far more likely to be disambiguated ".. (mythology)" than male divinities and this has been born out in later content on that page. A lot of the Britannica and gender research was conducted following my posting of this thread and perhaps issues can be pursued simply by means of quoting such guidelines as WP:SYSTEMICBIAS and WP:NPOV. However, the current emphasis on mythology in Wikipedia, at least in comparison to sources like Britannica, I think, needs to be addressed. I do not think that the word mythology is being used with fair representation and that, to guard against further abuses, a reference in W2W would help. I think that, given the above, "mythology" can certainly be considered (to some extent) a word to watch and, in various cases, words pertaining to "history", "culture" and "religion" may often be more relevantly applied. GregKaye 12:45, 19 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GregKaye, your proposal confuses me. Like QuartierLatin1968 (Q·L·) noted above (the "23:20, 16 March 2015 (UTC)" post), the "myth" aspect was already a part of the WP:LABEL guideline. So why did you propose that "myth" be added to it? Was your proposal more about adding "mythology" to the guideline? Since "myth" is already there, it's like the oppose votes above are forming WP:Consensus to remove "myth" from the guideline. I did tweak one aspect regarding the guideline, as noted lower. Flyer22 (talk) 20:09, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't think anyone wants to remove "myth" from the guideline. What people oppose is a blanket change of mythology to religion because (of course) not all myths are or were religious in nature. It might be worth making it clear that myth and mythology are words to watch in the context of things that are or were once genuine beliefs. If significant numbers of people once believed in something, or currently believe in something, then it might be a mistake to call it a myth. (This goes beyond religion, of course; you wouldn't want to call a political concept a 'myth' either, not unless it's universally described as such in the lines of the Stab-in-the-back myth.) The current wording is "Avoid myth in its informal sense, and establish the scholarly context for any formal use of the term", which I think is about right; the issue is that the OP here misjudged how often there is an established scholarly context for it. --Aquillion (talk) 06:54, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Flyer22, Aquillion In a Religion Wikiproject thread I have provided extensive references first from Britannica to show the way that various divinities across a full range of major pantheons were presented as gods, goddesses and deities. When a book written from the perspective of mythology was cited I then presented a raft of references within the book within which various divinities were described in similar ways. In comparison to Britannica I think that Wikipedia is unnecessarily and unevenly assertive in regard to its presentation of and labelling of topics as mythology.

Certainly religion and myth, amongst other issues, are intertwined ... but how is it possible to say that one has precedence? In another thread I noted that Wikipedia has two articles on chicken and egg.

Whether by intention or not I think that there has been a POV pushing in Wikipedia in its presentation of mythology and this may be partly due to the prominent display of "Mercury (mythology)" in project pages such as WP:DISAMB. In all fields of study (inclusive of archeology, cultural studies, mythology and religious studies) a character such as Mercury will be referred to as a god. This is common to all fields. Within Wikipedia content various of the gods in question are presented with sole reference as being in X mythology. In the context of guidelines, and especially in the specific context of the connotations of myth as being associated with fallacy, I think that a biased view is presented. There is certainly an unfair bias in comparison to our presentations of modern religions. There is no article that presents opening texts as "In Judeo-Christian mythology Jehovah ..." or as "In Islamic mythology, Allah ..." In cases where a figure was venerated, worshipped and/or believed in then I think that religion at least deserves a mention. GregKaye 15:25, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Egsan Bacon, Maunus, Paul August, Mr. Guye, for an illustration of the extent that the interpretation as mythology is being pushed please look at the following;

• List of death deities
• List of fertility deities
• List of health deities
• List of love and lust deities
• List of nature deities
• List of sky deities
• List of war deities
• List of water deities
• List of wind deities

Word such as religion and pantheon are in existance and yet every sphere of practice in all these cases is defined as "mythology". In each case there were associated religious practices with such aspects as priests, temples and sacrifice. It is a vast POV push to define all of this as solely as mythology and the only way that I see it is that people here have serious issues with WP:OWN. I want to ask what you think can be done to balance things out. As far as I can see, even from the earliest of Earth mother type practice, religion comes first.

GregKaye 23:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per GregKaye's counterarguments immediately above. I have changed my mind. Defining certain stuff as "religion" and others as "mythology" without significant scholarly consensus or without significant Wikipedian consensus pushes a POV that does not benefit anyone's personal religious beliefs. --Mr. Guye (talk) 23:59, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Agreed on "myth" but not "mythology". The first word does have a frequent negative connotation (though we can use it properly in context without giving that connotation, simply by writing well). "Mythology" has no such connotation. This goes multiple ways, though. We need to be careful not to label all mythological figures "gods" or "deities", label all legendary figures "mythological", or label all mythological stories and their details "religious". All that said, yes, we do need to avoid labeling at least living religions, en toto, as "mythologies" or "mythological", since it can be taken in a pejorative way, and it's a misuse of the terms. Only parts of religions involve mythology, but it occurs even in major ones based on written scriptures. Christian mythology is a real thing, and well-educated Christians know this. Oone example among many: the story of the flowering of Joseph's staff upon meeting Mary is mythological, and not a part of biblical doctrine; it's also obviously metaphoric of something anyone over the age of puberty understands, and there is no serious debate about that point. Were we to have an article about this, it would be acceptable to refer to this story as part of Christian mythology.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:44, 1 April 2015 (UTC) Updated 17:42, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

SMcCandlish This entry on mythology in the online Oxford dictionary includes the definition:

• 1.1 A set of stories or beliefs about a particular person, institution, or situation, especially when exaggerated or fictitious:

we look for change in our thirties, not in our forties, as popular mythology has it

It was, popular mythology tells us, one of the contributing factors to the American Revolution, and it might just lead to a revolution here.

Contrary to today's popular mythology about our past, slavery and exploitation were not taboo subjects then.

Thanks, Betty, for your stunning and original contribution to American popular mythology.

The word "mythology" is equally associated with exaggeration and fallacy. In this I am not saying religious stories in any religion may not have arrived to us packed with exaggeration and fallacy. The only troubles are that the word mythology is very clearly associated with this definition and that, as this word is resisted in its use in relation to present day religions, this creates WP:SYSTEMICBIAS. Something has to give. In regard to ancient deities everything gets WP:LABELed as "mythology" and it seems to me that non-neutral editors are, intentionally or not, actively pushing this POV. In relation to "deities" the label "religion" is not, for instance that I have seen, been given use in headings. "Mythology" is used exclusively in this context with this, I think, prejudging label being plastered everywhere.

I am not saying that the words "myth" and "mythology" should be banned from content but that they should be "words to watch". They should only be used in application to ancient religions to the same extent that they are used in connection to modern religions. GregKaye 07:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's a metaphoric usage clear in context; another is when we speak of a fictional "mythology", e.g. "Star Trek mythology". Neither of those cases affect interpretation of the use of the word "mythology" in the sort of context we're contemplating here. "Myth" is a very different case; it is quite often used specifically to denigrate religious beliefs as false.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  17:35, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose For a variety of reasons, but TLDR if I wrote them up. One important reason is that I can't see it solving the problems the proposal aims to solve, the same arguments will take place. I will point out that many theologians (who are believers in their religions) discuss the mythological aspects of their religions. Dougweller (talk) 12:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cf. my comments earlier along related lines; "mythology" and "mythological" in the context of religion refers to a religion's traditional narrative cycle. But "myth" in that context can refer to the same thing, or it can be a pejorative used by adherents of one "true" religion to cast doubt "false" ones. This is why I supported adding "myth" (in the religious context) to this guideline, but distinguishing it from "mytholog[y|ical]". While, as GregKaye documents, there's a metaphorical pejorative sense of "mythological" and "mythology", there's often nothing metaphoric about the pejorative use of "myth".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  17:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

SMcCandlish we have a situation presented in the lists of deities shown above where presentations of mythology covers the various subjects with comparatively slight reference being made to religion. The topic here is gods and yet there is little comparison between the treatment of modern and past religions. There is gross bias in play. Certainly the within Wikipedia wrongs mentioned can be tackled through the application of other guidelines but some baseline comment here would really help. Added to this is the problem that mythology is a tainted word. Various faiths, present and past, are presented in Wikipedia and yet the term mythology, tainted as it is with the concept of fallacy, is predominantly plastered across the latter. GregKaye 20:19, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your argument, but disagree with it. I concur that "myth" is too frequently used as a pejorative, within the context of religion, but "mythology" and "mythological" are not; their pejorative use is metaphoric, in other contexts.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:03, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

SMcCandlish take List of death deities for example. Take a look. It is presented as a list of deities which pertains to religion. However mythology is, as far as I can tell, plastered all over this article while articles related to the Abrahamic religions keep myth related terminologies at a comparative distance. There is clear systemic bias here. GregKaye 17:16, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@GregKaye: Or there's the simple fact that there is no "death deity" in any of the [extant] Abrahamic religions. It seems to me that you are looking hard for reasons to be offended, or going out of your way to suggest ways in which others can take offense, rather than addressing any actual outcry. Even if that article's topic did encompass Abrahamic religions, it would be a matter of fixing that article, and wouldn't prove a systemic problem. (FWIW, I would be in favor of changing "mythology" to "religion" in most of that article's subheadings, though I'm skeptical about doing it to all of them, for reasons that I elucidate below). See, by way of counter-example, Triple deity, which does include Abrahamic religion. I see no such bias there today, nor did it when I started that article as one of my first serious WP endeavors. If it were a systemic bias, we'd see it at this article, too, and other similar comparative religion articles; that's in the nature of what "systemic" means. The words myth[ology|ological] are used sparingly at that article, and in accordance with the articles to which it links when doing so, e.g. Sami mythology. (Disclaimer: I say this based on a cursory re-skimming; I concede that there may be a couple of questionable uses of such terms somewhere in the article, but again, that's a matter for correction at that article, not proof of huge WP-wide problem.)

It's not that "articles related to the Abrahamic religions keep myth[-]related terminologies at a comparative distance"; rather, some editors who really don't like those words go to extra effort to keep them from ever being applied in those articles, even when it's actually appropriate to do so. This is a WP:NPOV problem, but it's one of elevating Abrahamic religions as somehow "beyond" the concept of mythology. The last thing we need to do is escalate and spread this special-exceptionalism by effectively declaring all religions and purported religions magically immune to this terminology, rather than instead doing the right thing, which is insisting that it be used consistently. I've already referred above to the Christian myth of Joseph's flowering staff; if we have an article on this, it should refer to it as mythological. It's not even, technically speaking, apocryphal.

An additional consideration is that for many ancient religions, or purported religions, we have nothing at all but mythology. We have no other vestiges, except perhaps a few ritual objects from alleged sacred sites (see postprocessual archaeology and its detractors for why such interpretations can be controversial, or see the book Motel of the Mysteries for a humorous take on it), or perhaps a third-party description by an enemy's scribe, like Tacitus writing about the Gauls and Germani. Exactly what constitutes "religion" per se from other forms of spirituality, and non-devotional cultural beliefs, is a difficult question, and it's not our job to force the label "religion" or "religious" on mythological material that may not actually qualify.

Much of what survives of both Irish and Welsh mythology (in both cases filtered through later Christian scribes who bowdlerized to an unknowable extent) does not appear to be religious at all, but, like much of the Norse sagas, a grandiose and euhemerizing take on what a pre-literate culture can remember of its own actual history. While some of O'Rahilly's historical model of ancient Irish history, based on these mythological cycles, has been shown by more recent research to have numerous flaws, a substantial portion of it has not, and is almost certainly correct in general outline. Parts of it have been bolstered by genetic and other evidence. We have a similar problem with the Arthurian cycle and the Matter of Britain more broadly, as it wildly mixes history, legend/myth, more prosaic folklore, and vestiges of ancient Celtic religion. It's absolutely wrong in most context to refer to Arthur, Merlin, etc. as "deities" or as part of a "religion", but they are absolutely mythological at their core, commingled with poorly recorded actual history, and then layered upon by legend and outright fiction over the intervening centuries. (I don't mean to belabor northwestern European mythology, I can just speak about it with more certainty).

Yet another factor to consider is that the modern, Western concept of religion is not shared across all cultures, nor even within modern Western culture (millions of Westerns identify as having strong spiritual beliefs but not religion, or even an staunch opposition to religion). In many mytho-spiritual systems, the figures we too-conveniently label "gods" in English are nothing at all like the God/Allah of Abrahamic religion, nor even the distant, and otherworldly gods of the Greek and Roman pantheons. They may simply be one's own venerated ancestors, or heroic immortals believed to walk among us at will, or something ineffable that infuses all living thing, or all things, and so on. "Religion" is often actually a very poor label, and we systemically use it overbroadly and vaguely. "Mythology", on the other hand, has a more distinct meaning: A recorded narrative cycle of stories involving the supernatural and how it is thought by a culture to relate to its origins and place in the natural world (usually including death and an expected afterlife). The key part is "a recorded narrative cycle"; i.e., a mythology is essentially a primary source that we can consult, while a religion has no such concrete definition.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:26, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PS: At Triple deity I did, on closer inspection, find "Hindu mythology", without the context making clear that it referred to a mythological cycle, rather than the religion more generally. Rather that start a debate about that, it seemed more sensible to change all the table headings from labels like "Hindu mythology" and "Greek mythology" to simply "Hindu" and "Greek". This also fixed the problem that the Arthurian cycle was being referred to as "mythology" when it's actually legend. (The distinction is important, but need not be dwelt on here.)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  01:30, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The quote box being used without context in WP:LABEL was grossly misleading and unnecessary. We have excellent text that describes the problems with contentious labels. The quote (of no one in particular, mind you) is simply not needed and should be removed. If you want to explain a particular word in the text, feel free to offer some text for a possible explanation here.

jps (talk) 18:40, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's not misleading; those are contentious labels in many situations, even though some may also have non-judgmental uses. It's presented, just as in the sections above and below, as a series of examples and doesn't claim to be a quotation. NebY (talk) 19:07, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The examples aren't very good. There isn't a justification for including those particular words and some of them are included without any comment. The text is much better. As it is presented right now, users might think that it's okay to simply remove all those words wherever they see them which is highly problematic. jps (talk) 19:14, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I tweaked one part regarding that section, in case editors think that they automatically have to use WP:Intext-attribution; they do not. WP:Intext-attribution is clear that it can mislead. I have certainly seen it applied wrongly. Flyer22 (talk) 19:49, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The examples that you most recently removed are all appropriate. Most of Sect, fundamentalist, heretic, extremist, denialist, myth, -gate, pseudo- and controversial are used without any derogatory intent in particular contexts, but in general use all are frequently intended as or read as inherently critical, derogatory or condemnatory. Four of them are discussed at length in the text below the box. It is possible that some are "not universally accepted" (as you put it in an edit summary); that rather suggests that they are indeed contentious. If editors "simply remove all those words wherever they see them" then the problem is surely one of competence - they have disregarded or simply not read the text that the box introduces. Have you encountered a recent instance of this, perhaps actually citing the MOS, that you have sought to correct by amending the MOS? NebY (talk) 20:07, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, people cited WP:LABEL as a reason to remove the description of a webpage that engages in climate change denial. To claim that this is a pejorative description of the blog is certainly the POV of those who believe in climate change denial, but when reliable sources identify the webpage as such, it seems that many users (who may have ulterior agendas) are quick to appeal to this MOS as a trump card. jps (talk) 16:12, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Come on now, assume a little good faith. This false dichotomy that unless you accept completely the IPCC with regard to climate change you are a denialist is not scientific in the least. And in order to back up your use of a contentious label you decide to just change the MOS to fit your needs. History will not be kind to this continued misuse of science. Arzel (talk) 18:12, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be referring to the dispute you're engaged in over Anthony Watts (blogger). So far as I can tell, WP:LABEL has been mentioned once, at WP:BLPN#Anthony Watts (blogger), when Arzel wrote "wp:label applies. Defining a living person in negative terms by those openly hostile to them is both a violation of npov and blp."[9] That's not a case of, in your words above, "users might think that it's okay to simply remove all those words wherever they see them which is highly problematic" and Arzel didn't refer to the list of examples. Nevertheless, within an hour you'd deleted the entire series from WP:LABEL[10] and you went on to try deleting a group of nine words. You'll understand that it looks as if you really just wanted to delete "denialist" and the rest were collateral damage. NebY (talk) 19:51, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice if there were some text about why "denialist" is a label. Would you care to write some for inclusion? I deleted others because there was no explanation of how they were labels properly. I don't understand why we have words listed which are not mentioned in the text. jps (talk) 20:34, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

jps The text at WP:LABEL is very far from excellent and presents direct contradiction the opening text of WP:W2W. This begins with the statement "There are no forbidden words or expressions on Wikipedia". Regardless of this the text of WP:LABEL WP:ASSERTs: "Value-laden labels ... are best avoided". I have suggested that this should say "Value-laden labels ... may be best avoided". Editors raise issue with article titles such as List of terrorist incidents in London in lengthy waste of time discussions like this. Please can a change to a less assertive and prescriptive text for WP:LABEL.

• I also provisionally agree with you about denialism and doubt that we can assert the "denialist" will certainly act as an unwarranted label in all circumstances. I personally agree with usage in relation to the mentioned issues Climate change denial, HIV/AIDS denialism and Holocaust denial, GregKaye 14:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, claiming a value-judgment where none has happened is a problem. The word myth has caused similar problems in relation to, for example, flood myths. We really just need to revamp this. The point is that if reliable sources use the "label" it is not Wikipedia's place to remove it. jps (talk) 20:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't necessarily have a problem with the titles "flood myths" and "creation myths" as these are used equally in reference to the wide range of "religions" that contain these narratives. However, it may be notable that:

• "flood story" gets "About 23,300 results" in books

"flood story" gets "About 3,580 results" in scholar

• "flood myth" gets "About 7,900 results" in books

"flood myth" gets "About 1,270 results" in scholar

I would personally interpret "flood legend" as per WP:PRECISE but this is less supported.

• "flood legend" gets "About 5,690 results" in books

"flood legend" gets "About 324 results" in scholar

There is no denying though that "flood myth" is widely used. The main issue for me is the WP:SYSTEMICBIAS in "myth" related terminology favour of modern religions over ancient faiths. Wording is not evenly used. Howver mine is a different issue to yours. GregKaye 09:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The "bias" is certainly there, but it is there in a way that is slightly problematic in that extant believers object to their religious stories being identified properly as myths in spite of the academic literature's preference for such "LABELS" while the academic literature's preference is preserved on the pages which write about religious stories that are not believed by currently living adherents.

In any case, do we have consensus to reword at least?

jps (talk) 11:26, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What rewording are you proposing? Does it concern GregKaye's perception of a contradiction between "There are no forbidden words or expressions on Wikipedia" and "Value-laden labels ... are best avoided"? I hope not; it's not contradictory to say no words are forbidden but some are best avoided. Is it about Greg's concerns around "myth", which have been raised in so many places but not achieved consensus? Is it about "denialist"? We can hardly say Greg's "provisionally agree" concerning denial can be added to your more sweeping deletions to establish consensus, even if you hadn't faced opposition to those removals from myself and Arzel. But do propose a rewording and see if you can gain consensus. NebY (talk) 11:55, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NebY My "are best avoided" views were firstly in relation to the issue of terrorism above and were in regard to comments of "violation" of wp:label in a long running discussion at Talk:List of terrorist incidents in London. Many editors considered this to ba a fair use of article title. My argument is that, if an editor edits with a word that labelled as a label, then that editor can be logically labelled as not editing to best standard. There is a world of difference between dogmatically asserting "are best avoided" and giving fair indication "may be best avoided". GregKaye 12:06, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification and indeed, I see your suggestion of including "may be" was part of your RFC Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Proposed changes to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Contentious labels. As that has no support as yet, I don't suppose that can be what jps is referring to. NebY (talk) 12:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just saying that words that fall in the quotebox should at least be explained in the text. jps (talk) 16:08, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a principle that's been applied to any of the sections in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch and there's no obvious reason why the WP:QUOTE section should deviate from the rest in that, so you'll need a wider discussion than this one to establish consensus on the principle. NebY (talk) 17:34, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can you point to the discussion where the words in the quote box were decided upon? I can't find it. jps (talk) 00:45, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

After waiting a week, I've come to realize that there has never been a discussion on what words to include. I'll start one below.

GregKaye, regarding this and this, I reverted because I see no WP:Consensus for changing "are" to "may be." And seeing as this is a WP:Guideline, you should have WP:Consensus for it. Like NebY told you above in this section, "that has no support as yet." I disagree with changing "are" to "may be" because those are words that should generally be avoided in Wikipedia articles, unless widely supported by WP:Reliable sources and used in a way that adheres to WP:Due weight. We need no softening of language in that regard. Flyer22 (talk) 05:45, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PBS, given what I stated above about WP:In-text attribution, how is your edit, which reverted mine, an improvement? I fail to see how my wording "gutted whole point of the paragraph." The whole point of the paragraph is a mess, and should be fixed. Like I stated above, that wording makes it seem like editors "automatically have to use WP:Intext-attribution; they do not. WP:Intext-attribution is clear that it can mislead. I have certainly seen it applied wrongly." Flyer22 (talk) 14:58, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that the following words are unambiguously contentious and would need reliable sources before being used in Wikipedia's voice:

• racist
• perverted
• heretic
• extremist
• terrorist
• bigot
• -gate
• pseudo-

The other words I find are not so unambiguously contentious and our text either doesn't discuss them or is ambiguous about them (c.f. myth).

Comments?

jps (talk) 14:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree about all the terms in the list, but would add "cult" and "sect" and maybe a few related words. Calling someone a "criminal" might be problematic, for instance. John Carter (talk) 15:12, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This attempt to remove the word "Denialist" should be rejected at hand. Furthermore, this is the wrong way to go about such a change. Arzel (talk) 16:03, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This looks like exactly the right way to discuss a revision of the list of examples. For the sake of clarity, I'll note that jps's proposal would remove "cult", "sect", "fundamentalist", "denialist", "freedom fighter", "myth" and "controversial". You're free to argue that any of those should still be included. NebY (talk) 20:04, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One way of proposing change that I have often seen and practised is first present the existing situation, then to present a proposed situation (or issue, set of issues) then perhaps to not any changes and present any related thoughts and arguments. This seems to been a contentious page and, although I will not judge whether an "attempt" was involved, Arzel is right to raise the issue. GregKaye 12:51, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Heretic[al]"/"heresy" in the context of Roman Catholicism (and its offshoots) isn't contentious, but a matter of factual record; either the church (usually the Pope, or the king in Anglicanism) declared something heresy, or not. Used in other contexts, these words would be a PoV problem, but this doesn't seem to be happening, so I don't see an issue to address here. Those Watergate-derived "-gate" labels are also a matter of fact; something has either been popularly termed that way or it hasn't, and whether we title the article that way is a WP:COMMONNAME issue, and whether we mention the label in the text is a matter for case-by-case discussion at the articles' talk pages about how prevalent it is in the sources, and whether they have an agenda to push. "Pervert[ed]" would be contentious in WP's voice even if sources did use it, since it's a subjective moral judgment. "Pseudo-" is simply Latin for 'false' and is not contentious in any way in many cases; it's a common element in various scientific names for animals, minerals, etc. We don't need to modify the guideline to account for obvious misuse of the prefix to impart value judgments. "Terrorism" is a specific set of tactics, generally mass murder and the destruction of public edifices, or the threat of such actions, to achieve political ends. While the word can be used in a loaded way, so can just about anything, and it isn't inherently judgmental. "Sect" isn't either; it simply means "religious group, especially one with beliefs that differ from those of other groups within the same overall religion". The fact that some people misuse it to mean "a weird cult" doesn't mean we can't use it. "Cult" almost always, in present-day English, conveys a negative connotation. While there is still some surviving use of the term in an anthropological sense (our own article Dionysus uses it in this neutral way in the lead, for example), it's a term of art in such cases and not apt to be understood as neutral by non-specialist readers, so the term is best avoided in such contexts, and replaced with "worship of", "a shrine to", and other more specific phrasing that fits the context in question. In reference to what we usually think of as "cults" (Heaven's Gate, etc.), yes we need sources, but we need sources for everything anyway. I would agree with adding it to this guideline, but there's nothing wrong with following the sources and using "cult" to describe Heaven's Gate or the Jonestown group. We even have reliable sources for working definitions of "cult" in that context and how to distinguish a cult (in that sense) from a religion. It's not WP's job to draw such a distinction ourselves, per WP:NOR, but it is our job to reflect how the sources treat these subjects. There is absolutely no doubt that a majority of reliable sources treat Scientology as a cult, for example, and our article on that topic properly reflects this. The problem is just using WP's voice to try to definitively label something a "cult" rather than report that specific sources have done so. "Denial[ist]" is a matter of fact, not opinion; either someone's published views do or do not deny something that is otherwise generally accepted. Similarly for "revisionist". "Racist" and "bigot[ry]" are obviously going to be problematic, but the former can be used without being an issue when the sources support it. There's no question, for example, that Jim Crow laws were racist, and it's not a PoV problem for WP to say so. "Bigot[ry]" is simply a loaded way of saying "racist"; it's an ad hominem personal label, like "jackass", instead of a description of a belief system or pattern of behavior ("-ism"). I don't see any evidence that it's being used in articles and needs to be addressed by this guideline. We don't need to list every single term in here that someone could conceivable misuse in an article, only those that are perennially problematic.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  20:51, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment by NAEG There's a whiff of a proposal here, but it seems incomplete to me. Our section now provides an open ended list of examples (notice the ellipsis at the start and end of the list of sample words). Our text does not say that any of these ALWAYS are contentious; it only says they MIGHT be. This puts the onus on editors to use good judgment and cooperative BRD on case-by-case basis. Proposal sounds like a proposal to (A) keep an open-ended list of MAYBE words and our MAYBE text, while (B) adding a new section of ALWAYS-TROUBLE words and text that MANDATES criteria for their usage. This strikes me as very well-intended WP:CREEP. @Peter Gulutzan:, elsewhere you opined that the proposal would remove "denialist" from the list of sample words. I don't read it that way, first because the OP said nothing about purging the MAYBE words/text; secondly because the list of sample words is not exclusive, i.e., it is open-ended. So no worries, mate, you can keep citing this to keep saying we can't say "deny" derivatives at Anthony Watts (blogger) unless we also include sources, like that published report from the American Academy of Arts & Sciences mentioned at the talk page. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:45, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What I actually said is here. I don't recall that I cited WP:WTW at some earlier time. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to your statement that this proposal might "result in removing 'denialist' from the list of words to watch". I don't think that is what is being proposed for reasons stated above. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:08, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A lot depends on context of usage in RS, but generally speaking the list looks about right, with the possible exception of pseudo-, which is commonly used for legitimate descriptive purposes, like quasi-.

I would think that "cult" could probably be added, with caution, because it is often used legitimately in a critical capacity, such as "cult of personality", etc.; but probably not "sect", which is too commonly used for legitimate classification purposes in RS in religious studies. Wikipedia editors should not use these terms editorially to summarize critical RS unless there is a consensus as to the preponderance.

"Denialist" definitely should be removed, as there are extremely limited number of "value-laden" applications of that general term. The "climate change" related application is an example of misapplication of this policy for POV ends; that is to say, as a basis for excluding RS criticism of commentary on climate change denying that it is happening, or the extent, etc., which is the dictionary definition of the term.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:02, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for confirming that this is simply an exercise to remove the "Denialist" in order to call climate change skeptics "deniers". I am afraid you are wrong about the dictionary definition. Arzel (talk) 18:15, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

[11] --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:09, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have to concur with Ubikwit; too many of these words have non-contentious uses, in reliable sources. I also have to agree with NewsAndEventsGuy's analysis: We are mix-and-matching "maybe" and "always" contentious terms, and doing so in an unclear fashion, with the result that we do not have a clear proposal here, only the beginnings of one.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:27, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the status quo worse, though? It indicates a number of words that are identified as "problematic" without explanation and then offers extended rejoinders for a number of others that it lists which seem to detract from the whole point of the section. jps (talk) 14:24, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think John Carter makes a good case for "criminal" to be included. As for cult and sect, I'm less convinced that they are perennially problematic as SMcCandlish puts it. A "sect" can be a very neutral designation and, until relatively recently, so was the term "cult". On the other hand, I think the current use of "cult" is pretty much always pejorative and it is eschewed in the academic literature, so let's include that one. I aslo think SMcCandlish makes some excellent points about some of other other words currently used. Let's try again. Here is a list of the most problematic terms, as far as I can tell that the consensus states:

• perverted
• cult [under discussion - see below]
• extremist
• terrorist
• bigot
• criminal
• crank

Are there others which are big red flags?

jps (talk) 12:51, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

_{Apologies for rejoining this late.} While the use of "cult" to describe existing religions and movements may be generally pejorative, "cult" is currently used by historians and others in a non-pejorative sense; current academic literature concerning ancient religions uses it freely. If we do include it, let's make that distinction. NebY (talk) 16:03, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and in the case of cult of personality it is used pretty widely. jps (talk) 16:18, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Sect" is pretty much the European variant for the recent American usage of the word "cult." I agree that in both cases the terms can be and reasonably are frequently used in a nonpejorative way. The "cult of saints" for instance is one of the standard ways to describe that form of veneration, and from what I've seen one of the standard names for encyclopedic entries on that form of veneration, and in the US the word "sect" is primarily used in a nonpejorative way to describe groups within a larger faith tradition. In neither case is the use of the word as a part of a broader term, like "Protestant sect" or "cult of saints," necessarily problematic, but if used as stand-alone terms they can be. John Carter (talk) 18:11, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I removed "cult" just because I think that the discussion would be too long. Are there any additional words? jps (talk) 19:29, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion we've already had may show the way to retaining "cult" with little change to the existing wording e.g. "such as calling an modern organization a cult". NebY (talk) 22:39, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I added another one. While the word "crank" is often used in passing to describe pseudoscience proponents, it is not a word which should be used in Wikipedia, I'd argue. jps (talk) 01:19, 20 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is just turning into a PoV-pushing exercise, "these are the words I subjectively don't like". "Criminal", for one thing, is a verifiable factual matter: either convicted or not.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:19, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the proper term for such "convict"? jps (talk) 14:22, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I think using the unqualified term "criminal" can be very problematic. "Convicted criminal" is verifiable, but what about people who have their records expunged? What about people who were wrongfully convicted? What about people who are pardoned? Are they all verifiably "criminals"? It's best to avoid the term and describe the legal situation the person finds themselves in. Yes, the word "criminal" might be used, but it can't simply be a label, I think. This is very problematic. jps (talk) 21:38, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think the list above is far better than the one currently being used in the sense that it includes a higher percentage of simply unambiguous problems. I don't think much (or anything really) would have to change in the text for this replacement. Please let me know your thoughts.

jps (talk) 21:37, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I dislike ambiguity and there were several comments. Please post a list showing strikeout and underline to indicate changes, and then ask the question. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:18, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would say we are not a go. The thread as a whole indicates a substantial lack of consensus not only with regard to what "the words" are but whether they're "maybe" or "always" not-OK.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:27, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I'm wondering, however, if maybe we could simply use the words above as a starting point for the box. E.g. I think this box is better than the current one:

jps (talk) 14:27, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know to what extent anything might be done on this but I think that labels can work both ways. There are value-laden labels that may be considered to inappropriately discredit a person or group and there are value laden labels that may be considered to inappropriately exonerate a person or group. I do not personally see why a word like "extremist" should be kept on the list when all this long established word implies is taking things to extremes when "jihadist" is not on the list when this neologism has connotations of doctrinal justification for actions. On this it is important to note that there is a fundamental difference between Jihad and Jihadism with Offensive jihad arguably contravening the defensive intentions of the Quran based doctrine. I think that it also exerts POV when many of the groups so described may be most essentially being engaged in conflict with other Sunni, Shia and/or Sufi groups. Many of these groups describe themselves as Mujahideen which, according to article content, relates to the claim of being "engaged in Jihad" but, as mentioned, jihad may often represent something quite different from the expansionist, child abducting, aide worker killing, minority persecuting behaviours involved. GregKaye 13:48, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have added "iconic" to the list of peacock/puffery terms. It's still used quite often in senses where it should be avoided and where it contributes nothing to a sentence. Things that are truly iconic can always be described in terms that clearly state what the iconic thing "stands for" and why. Perhaps it's been considered before, as it's a very prevalent word, but it hasn't been mentioned recently on this talk page. Roches (talk) 22:22, 20 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This was undone, and I undid the revert. Many of the words on the list are often used correctly ("landmark", "hit"), and the fact that "iconic" does have legitimate uses does not mean that it shouldn't be on the list. If there are "enough examples", do consider removing another word instead. At this point in time, "iconic" is being overused. It will go out of vogue eventually, and then it won't need to be on the list anymore. Roches (talk) 02:11, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I reverted you here and here. There are indeed enough examples in that box, and I am tired of seeing editors coming along and adding words that they dislike (a WP:IDON'TLIKEIT basis) to it without any discussion. This is a WP:Guideline, and changes to it that affect how Wikipedia is edited should have WP:Consensus. The word iconic is commonly a valid and acceptable word on Wikipedia, especially when supported by WP:Reliable sources. If it's used in a non-WP:Neutral way, we have means to fix that. We should not be giving editors the impression that the word should generally be avoided. In other words, pointing them to this guideline and telling them "generally avoid that word" likely will not be what is best. Flyer22 (talk) 02:18, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The section title, words that may introduce bias, implies that the words should only be avoided if they do introduce bias. The guideline itself is clearly a caution against using words when they promote a subject without imparting verifiable information, rather than a ban on the use of those words.

You raise a valid concern about the possibility of someone using the guideline to justify removing a proper use of "iconic," although the presence of any word on that list creates that same possibility. I added the word to the list without prior consensus because I did not think anyone would object to its presence. I certainly wouldn't have altered the text of the guideline without consensus. I also wouldn't have changed the contents of one of the lists of words that are generally to be avoided, such as the next list, which contains words like "cult" and "racist." I won't change anything in the future without prior consensus, however. Roches (talk) 02:56, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Amongst earlier Proposed changes to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Contentious labels I proposed:

• Changing the text from saying "Value-laden labels ... are best avoided" to saying "Value-laden labels ... may be best avoided"

and SMcCandlish expressed agreement that this would be a beneficial change.

The text currently presents:

• Value-laden labels—... —may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject. In some cases, in-text attribution might be a better option. ...

However this IMO prescriptive/formulaic wording has facilitated to dogmatic discussions on more related to the application of rules than the appropriateness of content. See: Talk:List of terrorist incidents in London#Move for an example. My contention is that the current wording of the guideline may be taken to judge a title such as List of terrorist incidents in London as not being the best and this is before the appropriateness of the title has even been considered.

I also see the "are best avoided" wording to be in general contradiction with the opening text of WP:W2W which begins: "There are no forbidden words or expressions on Wikipedia, ...". How can we say that "There are no forbidden words" but then assert that some "are best avoided"?

I twice attempted to make the change to a "may be best avoided" wording with the changes being reverted by Flyer22.

GregKaye 09:05, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I explained why I reverted you, stating, "I disagree with changing 'are' to 'may be' because those are words that should generally be avoided in Wikipedia articles, unless widely supported by WP:Reliable sources and used in a way that adheres to WP:Due weight. We need no softening of language in that regard." My opinion on the matter won't be changing. And as pointed out in the discussion where I explained, you've been trying to get this text changed for some time, and started a WP:RfC on the matter. That WP:RfC gained no traction. You can obviously start another one, and advertise it by alerting the WP:Village pump to it. Flyer22 (talk) 09:12, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, as also noted in that discussion where I explained why I reverted you, I did my part to make that section better. Flyer22 (talk) 09:16, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Flyer22 I really appreciate the part you played in the development of the text and consider this to go far beyond merely having tweaked the text as you had humbly described it. Thank-you.

I also completely agree with you that there are "words that should generally be avoided in Wikipedia articles". What I am saying is that a prescriptive approach in Wikipedia that, to my mind, dogmatically states "are best avoided". This comes in the context where we have WP:PG on issues such as WP:OR, WP:SYSTEMICBIAS and, as you have also pointed out, WP:Due weight. Very clearly we are not going present contents that are not well presented. Obviously the problems within the discussion at Talk:List of terrorist incidents in London#Move came prior to your excellent tweaking.

In line with your comment I would also think that it may be reasonable to present:

• Value-laden labels... —may express contentious opinion should generally be avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject. In some cases, in-text attribution might be a better option. ...

Still thinking of the mentioned example of List of terrorist incidents in London, say there is an attack in London that editors think fits into this content.  ::Flyer22 I really appreciate the part you played in the development of the text and consider this to go far beyond merely having tweaked the text as you had described. Thank-you.

I also completely agree with you that there are "words that should generally be avoided in Wikipedia articles". What I am saying is that a prescriptive approach in Wikipedia that, to my mind, dogmatically states "are best avoided". This comes in the context where we have WP:PG on issues such as WP:OR, WP:SYSTEMICBIAS and, as you have also pointed out, WP:Due weight. Very clearly we are not going present contents that are not well presented. Obviously the problems within the discussion at Talk:List of terrorist incidents in London#Move came prior to your excellent tweaking.

In line with your comment I would also think that it may be reasonable to present:

• Value-laden labels... —may express contentious opinion should generally be avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject. In some cases, in-text attribution might be a better option. ...

Still thinking of the mentioned example of List of terrorist incidents in London, say there is an attack in London that editors think fits into this content but, for whatever reason news reports chose to use a different wording than terrorism and terror, this should not necessarily mean that this story should be automatically barred from inclusion or, carrying this conjecture a little further, just because one theoretical story which had not been described in terrorist parlance had been referenced in the article, there should be no need, on this basis, to change the article title. However, most potential problems would seem to have been resolved by your edit and I am pleased to have drawn attention to the issue. Say, for whatever reason news reports chose to use a different wording than terrorism and terror, this should not necessarily mean that this story should be automatically barred from inclusion or, carrying this conjecture a little further, just because one theoretical story which had not been described in terrorist parlance had been referenced in the article, there should be no need, on this basis, to change the article title. However, most potential problems would seem to have been resolved by your edit. For my part I am pleased to have drawn attention to the issue. GregKaye 12:57, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I still disagree. Flyer22 (talk) 13:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]