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Man the lifeboats! Bad press on the horizon!

The Arbitration Committee just arbitrated itself into a hole. The female victim of nasty offsite harassment? Banned. The male perpetrator of that harrassment? Not banned. Not blocked. Not warned. Not admonished. Not sanctioned in any way. Lightbreather would have been banned either way, but to allow her harasser to get off without any kind of sanction seems like a decision that will come back to bite them in the ass. Curried Soul (talk) 03:49, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A male person identified as sending harassing material was site banned weeks ago. A second person was also alleged to be involved, but despite exhaustive examination there was no consensus on the strength of the evidence against them. The female victim of the harassment was not banned because they were harassed, they were banned on the strength of evidence that they consistently refused to follow WP policy, as submitted by the community on the Evidence page, and predating the off-wiki harassment you refer to. But you already know all this, as you've clearly been following the case. -- Euryalus (talk) 04:17, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, she earned her ban fair and square before the off-wiki harassment happened. One accused harasser has a "retired" banner on their user page and can be dealt with swiftly if they return disruptively. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:24, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that unnamed accused harrasser retired "due to on- and off-wiki WP:Harassment and WP:Outing". Hmm. They are free to return whenever they wish. They are free to start another account and have a "clean start" (if they have not already). Euryalus says that an editor was site banned for sending harassing material, but does not identify the account. The community deserves to know who this was and it should be recorded as part of the case enforecement just as the interaction ban between Lightbreather and Scalhotrod was recorded. Curried Soul (talk) 14:32, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, for shit's sakes, Single Purpose Account, stop hyping this commonly-known fact into a big "mystery": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Two_kinds_of_pork Carrite (talk) 14:49, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This information is included in the proposed decision: [1]. Yunshui ^雲 _水 14:55, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

ArbCom couldn't even find that a user had a disruptive COI despite said user proudly admitting it on their user page. My confidence in their abilities is, understandably, low. Just reading the proposed decision, though, shows either incredible inconsistency or slavish admiration of [certain] editors///removed personal attack. Carrite (talk) 16:30, 15 July 2015 (UTC)///. Sceptre ^(talk) 15:41, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WMF has no policy on non-discrimination towards women for its online volunteers

There is no consensus on the English Wikipedia regarding what constitutes "civility," and the lengthy arguments full of vulgar sexual terms about women on this website will continue indefinitely unless a consensus is reached. (I have just "hatted", i.e., "closed down" one on this page.)

The Wikimedia Foundation has decided that non-discrimination is not included in its terms of use. Hence the English Wikipedia is perfectly free, as a social group run by consensus, to discriminate against women if it so chooses.

Interestingly enough, the Wikimedia Foundation applies the non-discrimination policies required by US law to its own staffers, even though it doesn't apply non-discrimination policies to its online volunteers.

We can "imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge," but as long as the price of freely sharing that knowledge remains sexual harassment and death threats, about half the population, especially the female half, isn't going to want to participate.

I am certain it must be frustrating for law enforcement when organizations like this one do not live up to their responsibilities for self-policing their own online communities.

It remains to be seen whether educational and cultural institutions continue to endorse an organization that refuses to prohibit discrimination against women, and whether negative publicity has any effect. --Djembayz (talk) 15:35, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You "closed down" a series of posts by three British editors (me included) pointing out the differences in the use of the English language in the UK and the US. In your hatting of the posts you used insulting language which I take to be directed at our national origin. Your vision of "civility" appears to be one dimensional and deeply unpleasant. You're right, there is no consensus on "civility" with the meaning you think it should have. May it long remain that way. DeCausa (talk) 18:51, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Editors who engage in discrimnatory conduct are very likely to get blocked for one of a number of reasons, because Wikipedia is (at least notionally) a cluocracy, not a bureaucracy. I see on glaring exception in James Cantor, who remains able to promote his deeply offensive beliefs on transgender issues despite the glaring COI. For the most part, though, bigots don't last long. In the matter of hatting comments for excessive Britishness, I reverted that as the comment was offensive and Jimbo is an honorary Brit these days. Guy (Help!) 09:17, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

British people and British culture are actually highly respected in this US city, which has two free television broadcast channels of BBC. The British-style "pubs" here, known for conviviality, are considered more respectable than "bars." I truly regret that we can not create an intact social fabric in DC like the one in Britain, which has made an exemplary effort to provide health care and housing for its citizens. The difficult social conditions in this city, which have produced many angry, desperate people, are a contributing factor for several of the women on this site who are being grouchy about the subject of respect. Quite possibly the reason you can joke around more freely with terms like the one in question in Britain is that Britain is a relatively civilized place, with large numbers of well-behaved people, that has been much more successful in implementing the rule of law.

I am open to the possibility that the posters above feel what they have been saying is innocent enough, that they view their piece of these conflicts as being more about national identity than about gender relations, and that they are serious in advocating against applying the BBC guidelines on strong language on this site. Clearly you don't want amateurs like me (who can come across as offensive and insulting even when it's not my intention) handling sensitive cultural matters, but I also note that my suggestion that it is time to bring in the more experienced cultural relations professionals who are officially designated to handle this task has been rejected.

It has been a year of back and forth on this topic, with no resolution in sight. It is increasingly clear that some people participating on Wikipedia are not in a strong enough personal position to withstand the rough-and-tumble atmosphere on the site. And while I guess we could start organizing groups in the volunteer community to support editors who run into problems with the rough-and-tumble atmosphere, who really wants to spend their free time on the phone listening to people complain about a situation that the organization has no intention of changing? --Djembayz (talk) 14:35, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Who's against the BBC guidelines? Did you read them? "The BBC does not ban words or phrases. However, it is the responsibility of all content makers to ensure strong language is used only where it is editorially justified. The acceptability of language to intended audiences should be judged with care." (My added emphasis.) That seems a very sound guideline. The decision-making process to ban or not ban words or phrases because of the offence they give (or the lack of offence) would be invidious because of the global nature of WP. It would be quite wrong to impose the standards of Washington DC or of Britain. Why ban the c-word but fail to prohibit mentioning Muhammad without PBUH? If you're going by the the greatest offence to the greatest number, the latter has it. Civility in a global arena is a complex question and there will never be a solution based on the narrowness of "what offends me is uncivil, what offends you is WP:NOTCENSORED", which is what so much of this boils down to. DeCausa (talk) 20:05, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To use another example that works in the other direction, what about the word spaz? As an American that is completely innocuous, so it would be ridiculous to ban it because some people are more familiar with its other meaning. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:51, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The WMF and Harassment, in and beyond Lightbreather

As you know, WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreather is about to be completed. This isn’t really about the arbitration decision, so much as about what the WMF needs to do next with regard to off-wiki harassment. I am not trying to re-argue the ArbCom decision. An argument can be made that the ArbCom is justified in banning Lightbreather, or that the ban is an overreaction and the lesser remedies would have sufficed. (My own thought is that the ban was justified due to her own conduct. Some arbitrators agree and some do not.) The underlying problem that is beyond the remit of ArbCom, but within the scope of responsibilities of the WMF, is what to do about off-wiki harassment, in particular by what appears to be a toxic subculture of editors who will stop at nothing to enforce their will on Wikipedia. We have seen this sort of behavior to a lesser extent in GamerGate, and we have seen it in a greater extent in Lightbreather. My opinion is that the WMF has not done enough. Off-wiki harassment of Wikipedia editors is an existential threat to the neutrality of Wikipedia, just as is undisclosed commercial paid editing. However, undisclosed commercial paid editing is only a threat to the neutrality of Wikipedia. It is not a threat to the editors of Wikipedia. Off-wiki harassment is a threat both to the neutrality of Wikipedia and the editors of Wikipedia. The failure is that of the WMF, not that of ArbCom.

Maybe the WMF has been working behind the scenes with regard to off-wiki harassment, but has been maintaining a low profile, seeking to stay behind the scenes. If so, that isn’t enough. The WMF should not only be working behind the scenes. Since off-wiki harassment is both a threat to Wikipedia and a threat to its editors, and since only the WMF can address the threat, the WMF needs to be seen as actively protecting its editors. The WMF needs to establish that it will act with force, indeed, with ferocity, against harassment. This isn’t a matter of establishing a friendly environment. This is a matter of ensuring that the laws of the land fully protect the editors of Wikipedia.

There is discussion in the case about the need for a court order. I don’t know the details, but it appears that Lightbreather didn’t get the full support of the WMF in fighting the harassment. Maybe she did get the support that was required. If so, she isn’t seen as having gotten the support that was required, and sometimes the appearance of justice is even more important than actual justice.

Several respected female editors are not satisfied with the handling of the case. The inability of the ArbCom to deal with the problem is not the ArbCom’s failing. It appears to be the WMF’s failure. If the failure was that of law enforcement, maybe the WMF needs to explain that. When there is known off-wiki harassment, the WMF should not be maintaining a low profile, which just amounts to putting the head in the sand. (Some male editors think that the WMF’s efforts to maintain a “friendly place” are politically correct tokenism. Maybe, in trying to keep WMF servers free of profanity, the WMF is looking at a lesser danger rather than a greater danger, profanity rather than threats.)

Some editors have noted that the policy against doxxing makes it difficult for editors who are actively being harassed to fight back. The WMF should at least look into how to weigh that policy against the policy against harassment. (If the WMF itself would take the leadership in fighting harassment, there might be less reason for harassed editors to attempt to expose their harassers.)

The prominence that Wikipedia has achieved as a compendium of knowledge makes it vulnerable to efforts to bias its neutrality, and it is occasionally attacked by small groups who will stop at nothing to slant it, and will go so far as to engage in threats. The WMF has taken a responsibility on itself to protect Wikipedia and its editors. This effort needs to be public, not just behind the scenes.

Maybe the WMF really is addressing the problem of harassment. If so, it needs to be seen as addressing the problem of harassment. It needs to be seen as willing to act with force, and even with ferocity, to prevent harassment and threats.

Robert McClenon (talk) 17:49, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sufficiently familiar with all the details of this particular case to be able to offer a very insightful opinion about it. Rather than rehash it all here (likely to be painful and messy) it might be good to email me some information, including where I can learn more.

The first thing I'd ask you and others to read is this. It sounds like you are arguing for a broadening of this program, and that's something I would personally support if I am convinced that it would be helpful.

But another thing to remember is that in many many cases of off-wiki harassment (again, I am not speaking of the particular case above, as I know too little to have any real judgment about it), there simply are no legal remedies. If someone isn't breaking the law, or if they are breaking the law but hiding behind Tor or similar means of remaining hidden, then there really isn't anything that the Wikimedia Foundation can do. That's super frustrating but it is true.

Another thing to remember is that in many cases of online conflict, the lines get so blurred by blows and counterblows of online fury that it becomes very difficult to single out one side as "good". One thing I always recommend to people who are being harassed or treated badly is "leave a clean paper trail" - what I mean by that is that if someone is being obnoxious to you, and you're obnoxious back, and then move forward to avail yourself of conflict resolution processes, it makes it much harder for newcomers to piece together who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

I'm very welcoming of specific ideas and proposals for what the WMF can do - and examples can be valuable for that. Again, I don't think hashing through the details of this particular case again in public is a good idea, but I'd love to hear your analysis privately of at what point you think the WMF could and should have acted, and what they should have done.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:20, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just in regards to Jimbo's comments about there being 'no legal remedies', if someone is not breaking the law, then is it harassment? Criticism is no excuse to harass. However I have seen more than a few instances where subjects of legitimate criticism have tried to cry foul. Vordrak (talk) 14:11, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to the Legal Fees Assistance Program, as it is stated, it should be implemented, but needs expansion in one obvious specific area. That is to editors who have no special status, but who are personally sued on account of their editing. There is at least one article subject who within the past year did threaten to sue not only the WMF but individual editors on account of edits that he said were defamatory. That was clearly intended only to have an even graver chilling effect than the usual legal threat, especially since Wikipedia already has its own method for dealing with any actually defamatory edit, which is to suppress the edit and block the editor. The Legal Fees Assistance Program should, at the least, be expanded to non-privileged editors who are threatened with legal action. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:49, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I had not initially been suggesting that the WMF should pay the legal fees of editors who were harassed, but that is reasonable. I had initially been suggesting that the WMF should use its own legal resources, as the WMF, to obtain appropriate relief against harassment, such as by injunctions. I still think that is also occasionally in order. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:49, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While the two incidents of off-wiki harassment of Lightbreather that I am familiar with were entirely despicable, I do not perceive that either would give rise to a legal remedy, at least under U.S. law. In the United States, much online speech that all of us would deplore, and which would disqualify an identified perpetrator of it from the Wikipedia community, is nonetheless likely to be held entitled to First Amendment protection.

Note, for example, how New York's "aggravated harassment" statute was declared unconstitutional last year on vagueness and overbreadth grounds—a serious problem in the era of online stalking, harassment, and threats going far beyond the Wikipedia context. Compare the type of Facebook postings that were at issue in Elonis v. United States, decided by the U.S. Supreme Court a few weeks ago. (As a disgression, I believe page 4 of the Court's opinion is the first time Wikipedia was ever mentioned in a U.S. Supreme Court opinion. This is hardly the way we wanted to make our debut.)

I am familiar with other cases of on- and off-wiki harassment of editors in which I believe some remedy could be available. The specific cases should not be discussed on-wiki, but if there is interest in reevaluating the WMF's approach to this area, I would be glad to be part of the discussion. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:34, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, wouldn't cases like JarlaxleArtemis have some legal remedy? This person has been sending death threats, threats of physical violence, and constant torment of various users for years. Users that have turned to the WMF for aid to no avail. Supposedly he's US based and the WMF knows exactly who he is. Aren't death threats legally actionable pretty much anywhere in the US? I bring it because the general gist of the discussion is that such harassment can't be combated without WMF intervention but another user explained how that would be useless as they have turned to the WMF to deal with the JarlaxleArtemis abuse and they were unable to help. Capeo (talk) 16:02, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a very good question, and I confess that I don't personally know at this moment the details of the WMF legal department's view on this particular case. I'm here at the board meeting with Geoff, and so in a spare minute, if I get a chance, I'll ask him about it. If the reason is specific to this case, I may not be able to speak specifically about it, depending on what the situation is, but I'll tell you what I can. And if the reason is due to a policy or philosophy of when the WMF should help, then I'm happy to help lead a community request to the board that we expand our efforts to cover such cases. But, again, I don't know enough about the current thinking on this case at the moment.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As it happens Philippe just responded at the case page. It seems JarlaxleArtemis is a point of focus for his team. He obviously couldn't speak about any specifics as far as legal matters but policy and legal avenues are being investigated. One rather telling thing he mentioned though is the technological limitations of the blocking tools which appear to be archaic and ineffectual and easily subverted. Maybe it's time to look into updating these tools. Effective blocking would be a first line defense against on-wiki harassment at least. Capeo (talk) 19:02, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Victim compensation funds or whatever this becomes should be separate from WMF and Wikipedia. Possibly even a consortium of like minded communities interested in preventing the same problem. To paraphrase, "Wikipedia is free as in free information, it's not free as in free beer." Set it up differently and cooperate but don't turn WP or WMF into the Internet Police. That will invariably have conflict at fringes that WP does not want to be in. The Elonis case for example that Newyorkbrad mentioned was clear cut harrassment. Conviction was reversed on technical question of strict liability and a jury instructions for criminal cases. The conviction was overturned, not on protected free speech vs. threats to harm, but on instructions given to the jury. Only Justice Thomas voted to uphold the conviction and all three female justices agreed to overturn the conviction (which is the giant clue that it wasn't the harassment they were deciding but rahter a principle of law regarding the rights of the accused - cotes were strictly along protection of the accused rather than free speech rights and threats). It would be horrific to have WP "lose" a high profile case like that where WP's interestes weren't even at issue. It's bad enough that Etonis used Wikipedia for legal advice (and prevailed though not on those grounds). It would be worse to lose such an obvious example of harassment on a technical jury instruction. It would be much better for a consortium including WP (Facebook should be ponying up some money there as it was their platform through which the harasser accessed his victims) supporting the victim through services including lost wages necessary to fight harassment. How would WP neutrally cover a subject like Bill Cosby if WP is directly involved in financing aspects of such cases? Jimbo should hit up Zuckerberg and others like Twitter to start an industry consortium that has the goal of ending harassment on their fora. It's not as broad as "all online harassment" but the harassment related to internet communities. Law enforcement doesn't distinguish death threats on the internet by, say Ross Ulbricht, and death threats made on facebook by an random IP but they do prioritize. A consortium will be needed to police fora from within if the low level stuff will get any traction. The mexican drug lord escapee tweeted a number of death threats and the police prioritize that over gamergate threats. A consortium need not focus on the high profile ones being dealt with by LE, but vigorously quashing the low level stuff is very doable with resolve. --DHeyward (talk) 04:24, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Elonis didn't, at least not as far as the majority opinion discusses it. He merely linked to Freedom of Speech from a Facebook page.

The opinion was solely predicated on the principle that intent is assumed to be part of every criminal act.

Elonis' argued that the court of the first instance, and indeed the appeal court had not alleged intent, let alone proved it. The supreme court supported his argument.

The case was not about "harassment" but about threats. To assume that female justices would have automatically found against Elonis, where male justices would not seems specious to say the least.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:23, 20 July 2015 (UTC).[reply]
01:23, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not clear to me why (in principle) ArbCom could not deal with such an issue. If you are harassed by some other editor outside of Wikipedia, then I don't see why you could not contact ArbCom via email and provide all the evidence you have, including the evidence about the identity of the editor. That would not be doxing, as you are not publicly disclosing any private information. Count Iblis (talk) 23:11, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why waste the bandwidth when an Office Action ban is just fine? ArbCom really isn't equipped for it. Nor do I trust them to act in the interest of WMF either legally or otherwise. That's not their purpose. It's a short note: "You are no longer welcome on any WMF servers. Your known accounts have been blocked by office action and may not be unblocked. Attempts to breach the ban will be dealt with to the extent allowed by law. Sincerely, WMF Office Legal Department." It's WMF that has to decide what side they choose to be on when it comes to protection. This includes harassment, child pornography, and legal threats. I don't think there is much Office Action hesitation when someone makes a physical threat of violence either to themselves or others, nor do I think the WMF office is much conflicted about how to handle contributors that threaten legal action against WMF or editors that express support of child pornography. There should be that same clarity of purpose when dealing with harassment. It's great that ArbCom banned "Two Kinds of Pork" but why wasn't it also followed with an office action ban? Anybody that jeopardizes the project in way that is so far beyond the bounds of a "disagreement" needs more than ArbCom which only exists to serve the community. The hand wringing should be replaced with clear Office Action that basically takes ArbCom out of the equation as final arbiter in these cases. In fact, relieving them of that burden would clarify their purpose immensely and we wouldn't have to conflate editor condiuct with victimization. Let ArbCom deal with serial 3RR abusers and good faith disputes that don't revolve around the legal fringes. Even the Schapps issue should have been dealt with by WMF Office Action in addition to whatever ArbCom did - including an Office Action block of contribsx. Hopefully it was and it is just private. --DHeyward (talk) 04:24, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just my thought but I don't think we should bring up lightbreather. She is going to be site banned so there would be no way for her to defend herself, time to move on. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:19, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As the OP makes clear, the focus of this discussion is meant to be the broader issue of off-wiki harassment rather than the specifics of Lightbreather's actions and the appropriate response to them. Your comment is off-base. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:47, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am commenting on the general intent of the OP of the broader issue on not any individual cases, if anyone admin feels this is somehow not ok please remove. I think that there is obviously a need to put into place certain processes to protect users. Privacy is a concern but so is doxxing, and other legitimate issues of harassment. When it is done through on wiki I think that it is easier to track but the problem with supplying user details to another user for the intent of investigation can be easily abused. A problem in any industry dealing with private or sensitive information is involved will tell you the dangers of individuals that use social engineering to get that info to use for harassment or other bad purposes. We have seen abuses in these checkuser processes including one recently that involved a private arbcom case resulting in a desysoping. I agree a response is needed by WMF but I urge caution in thinking how the information can help and hurt. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 02:01, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Robert McClenon is 100% correct here and I fully agree WMF needs to do something (or something more) to deal with harassment. But it's important to note that much of this was sexual harassment. In general, identity-based harassment is not tolerated by the community, with the exception of gender. If someone uses the n-word, action is often swift and decisive. But we've had entire ANIs and AEs about whether it's okay to call people "cunts" or "twats". Editors at the receiving end of this are told to suck it up, to grow thicker skins. Having WMF address harassment is lovely (and it would be nice if they give special attention to identity-based harassment), but there needs to be something to address the leniency regarding sexual harassment by the community and admins. We need a shift in how the project deals with it. I don't know how this can be done, but at the very least having influential people call for action on this would be a start. I've tossed out some ideas on LB's case's PD talk page if anyone cares to see them. TL;DR - Wikipedia has a cultural problem that must be addressed. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:30, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As you must know well, the "entire ANIs and AEs" involved extensive discussion on how those words were used and different perspectives on what those words meant in different cultural settings: American usage/meaning, in particular, differing from other English-speaking countries, and differences also within those other countries. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any such diffences on the n-word in the English-speaking world nowadays. What undermines those voicing concerns about the gender issues on WP is that kind of casual overstatement ("identity-based harassment is not tolerated by the community, with the exception of gender"). DeCausa (talk) 04:55, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, overstatements are the problem. Like your misquote of me. I said in general. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:27, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Generally, identity-based harassment is not tolerated by the community, with the exception of gender". There it is, in all its glory. How does that make the slightest difference to the point I was making? DeCausa (talk) 06:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You accuse someone of overstatement by misquoting them to make their statement into an overstatement, and you fail to see why that makes a difference? The point you were making was blatantly false to the point of ridiculousness. As an American living in London, I can reassure any Americans who have bought into this nonsense that calling a woman in a serious situation a "cunt" is not a personal attack is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. It is certainly true that "cunt" is considered a much more seriously "bad" word in the US. The UK meaning is much more like "bitch". If you call a woman a "bitch" in a conversation at Wikipedia, that's a personal attack and deserving of an immediate block for a meaningful amount of time. Repeat offenses are deserving of a permanent ban. The other thing you said, that the "n-word" doesn't have the same kind of different usages in different communities is also obviously false. The whole argument is, as a whole, completely nonsense from top to bottom.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:43, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If you think the c-word in the UK generally means something "more like bitch", you live in your own bubble. How long have you lived in the UK? What's truly ridiculous is you can live in this country for that amount of time and both be so off track and yet have such confidence in your misunderstanding of our language. There are, indeed, cultural circumstances in the UK where using the c-word is considered denigrating to women. It's not uniform and varies geographically, by class, and by political afiliation. But one thing it rarely means is "bitch" in any of those situations - although there are undoubtedly some occassions were it could. As for the so-called "misquote", the point is the absurd and ridiculous "with the exception of gender". It matters not a jot whether the sentence began with "generally". DeCausa (talk) 19:36, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are wrong, and to such an extent that it is not really possible to interpret what you are saying as anything other than trolling. On your user page, you claim to be a lawyer. I want you to tell me, with a straight face, that if in a serious meeting with partners of your law firm, in a disagreement with a female partner you called her a "cunt" this would be perfectly acceptable behavior and not considered sexist at all. No? Then get lost and stop trying to muddy the waters with abject nonsense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:27, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Get lost"! Of course it would not be said in the scenario you mentioned. The c-word is the most offensive four letter word in the UK. (One of the errors in your original reply to me was that you think it is a more seriously "bad" word in the US) But your scenario displays a surprising lack of knowledge of usage in the UK. It is rarely applied to women: for the most part, it is a descriptive of a man, and generally implies that he is cruel/vicious/generally evil or stupid/foolish or is used as a vacuous term having no particular personality implication (on a par with geezer although with a considerably stronger word). I believe the Australians tend to use it in the last sense. The point is women are not generally called the c-word. This is where your confusion with "bitch" arises. A man might be called a "cunt" but (probably) the closest insult to a woman (albeit using a milder word) is "bitch". There are exceptions to this. In certain geographical/class circumstances a woman might be called the word, but that is carrying over the meaning as it more generally applies to men. Taking the UK as a whole, this is very definitely a relatively minor fringe usage. However, in the UK, there are undoubtedly many people who would consider that using the word is offensive or denigrating specifically to women. But it's not because it's directed at women in the way you seem to think (or as it is in the US). I'm sorry to have to do a tldr explanation but your rudeness to me and your surprising lack of understanding of the word in the UK seems to call for it. (Btw, you might be assisted by reading our own article on the word). DeCausa (talk) 07:03, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. You've misunderstood the UK usage etc, Jimbo, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 09:44, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To call a woman a cunt is grossly offensive, I believe Sinead o'Connor recently called Kim Kardashian it. It's a sort of societal taboo, you just don't do it. Is it because of its sexual connotation? Maybe. It isn't a pleasant word, and is offensive, whoever it is directed at, but Jimbo you're really wrong in thinking that calling a male a "cunt" or "twat" is intended to be offensive to women. Where I live in southern Wales it's fairly common, in fact I've often heard it between friends to express their good fortune like "I won a grand on the lottery last night". Friend says "Lucky cunt". And intentionally being offensive to women sexually is the last thing which is intended in saying it. Like it would be calling a male a dick, it has no sexual meaning when used in that context, they both mean "a contemptible obnoxious idiot" basically. I agree that such words shouldn't be uttered at each other on here though, and I do think Jimbo has a point at least that a lot of women dislike the word. But to call a female a cunt really is ten times worse than "bitch", they're not comparable in the UK at all really, bitch is very common when directed at a woman, and some men would say it to his wife/girlfriend if she is being annoying, but "cunt" is rarely used towards a female and reserved for moments of extreme anger, intending to be grossly offensive. 95% of the time it is directed at a male, and basically means "you utter tool" without any thought of what it technically means sexually. The problem with calling somebody it on the web is that you never know the true gender identity of who it is directed at, and obviously in a professional working environment it is not something to be said.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:09, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Blofeld's explanation of the usage of the word is commensurate with my experience of it. It can be used in friendly banter between friends (I've only heard it used by males to males). Other than that it is an objectionable insult, but in the UK it is not generally considered a misogynistic insult and is generally not used to demean women. It's only through reading related discussions here that I have come to learn that in the US the term is (I think) akin to something like dismissing a woman as being "only a vagina" - and that is truly horrible, but it is not the way I've ever heard the word used in the UK. And it certainly does not mean "bitch" - Jimbo is truly wrong on that (I do appreciate your attempts to explain, Jimbo, but even with your time spent in the UK you are still speaking as an American to Americans). "Bitch" certainly is sexist in nature in that it is almost exclusively directed towards women (and I've actually mostly heard it used by women, although I've heard gay male friends use it amongst themselves). But "cunt" is not used the same way. The obvious answer is to never call anyone a cunt here on Wikipedia (or imply they might be a cunt, or advise them on how not to be a cunt, etc), as the word is undeniably offensive in a public context (in two different ways in two different cultures, but nonetheless offensive). What we should not be doing is assuming that person from culture A means the same thing as person from culture B when they both use the same word. Mr Potto (talk) 11:41, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Djembayz: - I think your "hatnote" here is a step in the wrong direction. You may be frustrated with this discussion for one reason or another, and perhaps it is a sidetrack of a sidetrack, but gratuitously bringing the editors' sex into it is exactly what we need to avoid doing in order to reduce the risk of sexual discrimination on Wikipedia. I think you ought to strike that part of your comment in the interests of moving forward productively. Wnt (talk) 15:33, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I happen to know that Jimmy feels passionately about protecting Wikipedians - especially female Wikipedians - from harassment and cyberstalking. I know this because some years ago there was a long discussion of the issue, and I was part of that discussion. Ironically, many of the same people making a massive fuss about Lightbreather also pretended that this necessarily private discussion was The End Of The World As We Know It. It's almost as if some people just want excuses to bash Wikipedia, and Jimmy specifically. Guy (Help!) 11:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just having a discussion about something doesn't mean feeling passionately about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Popish Plot (talk • contribs) 17:38, 16 July 2015 (UTC) Popish Plot (talk) 17:38, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He didn't say that, obviously. I don't see how you could possibly imagine he meant that. His point is that he knows I'm passionate about the issue because he's known me for years and has witnessed me in both private and public conversation, where my passion for this issue is evident.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:45, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He did say that but I guess he was joking around, the problem is that this is no joking matter. Popish Plot (talk) 20:11, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I most emphatically was not joking. My point was wholly serious: when Jimmy talks about sexual harassment, intimidation and the like, it is because, as far as I can tell from my interactions with him, he cares deeply about those things. Human dignity actually matters to him. It does to me, too: I wrote the standard advice to BLP subjects at OTRS. The majority of such discussions on Wikipedia right now, though, are not about those things at all, but about trying to crowbar one side or the other of some long-festering dispute (usually gamergate) into every issue. There is a world of difference between the faux-politesse of civil POV-pushers, and genuine respect for fellow human beings. Any Wikipedia who does not see this, and who is not up for reassessing their own behaviour and apologising when they get it wrong, is part of the problem. We all make mistakes. Wikipedia does not mandate perfection. It does mandate at least some humility. That's the tough bit, especially for those of us who are, in our real-world lives, strong personalities and accustomed to taking a leadership role within our own field. People here may not have English as a first language, they may be an emotional mess, they may be a psychological basket case. When we have to eject them, we should do it with class and let them retain their dignity, at least if they are not obvious trolls or vandals. Guy (Help!) 13:04, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was hoping you were joking because it really is a bit silly to say. The issue here is why isn't there a sexual harassment policy? Because you had a discussion once sop there is no need? That is literally what you said before, but thanks for clarifying. I do agree having perfection as a goal is setting up for failure, it isn't going to happen. And we should act with class and not make trollish comments. Popish Plot (talk) 13:40, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Harassment is already covered by existing policies. All forms of harassment. Guy (Help!) 08:52, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that most of the current dilemma relates to the question of whether a site ban requires evidence of harassment "beyond a reasonable doubt" or whether a preponderance of evidence is sufficient. WMF Legal — if they spent time and money to go on the offensive — might be able to identify bad actors "beyond a reasonable doubt," whereas without subpoenas being put into play, greater uncertainty remains. Now, do we really want WMF Legal going on the offensive? One should be careful of what one wishes... Is that a good use of donor dollars? Perhaps, but where does one draw the line? It's not a totally simple thing, JW's observation about Tor and Brad's about lack of statutory relief notwithstanding. Carrite (talk) 15:17, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A site ban is not the same as taking someone's property or throwing them in jail. It would seem to me that WMF can ban someone from their website for whatever reason they see fit, without regard to standards required by civil or criminal law (preponderance of evidence, or evidence beyond a reasonable doubt). I'm not a lawyer, though, so others are free to correct me here. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:02, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, ArbCom certainly had a problem with that concept. Carrite (talk) 17:15, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't insist on respect, you won't get it

Acting as your big sister, Mr. Wales, let me jump in and give you a hand, and hat that discussion above. I didn't hear that, were you talking to me? I live in a rough neighborhood, two shootings last week, and the way things work here is that you have to insist on respect. If you don't insist on respect, you won't get it.

An African American woman who spent years in public life shared the following technique: "I didn't hear you, were you talking to me? Because if you were, I didn't hear a thing you were saying." And if the person repeats themselves, ask, "Are you finished yet?" and walk away.

And when you can't get respect, your only option, if you want to be safe, is to leave. I'm not going to step forward and propose respect become a policy, even if Arbcom suggests I do it, as I don't want to be harassed. Arbcom is utterly unwilling and unable to enforce respect for women. I'd say it's up to you, the male editors, and the WMF to propose a policy of respect at this point, not me!

When women can't get respect, they walk away. And it's pretty clear that's the current situation on this website.

If you don't insist on respect, you won't get it. --Djembayz (talk) 12:47, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me but who has disrespected you? Hell in a Bucket (talk) 14:44, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's interesting. I've tried exactly that method. Some of my esteemed colleagues called it "lack of responsiveness". All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:22, 19 July 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Public and Private Proceedings

It occurs to me that, although I stand by my statement that not enough is done about coordinated harassment, part of the problem is a difference between ArbCom proceedings and WMF Office Actions. That is that ArbCom proceedings are (with the exception of a very few in camera ArbCom cases) very public, and WMF Office Actions are done off the record. The off-the-record nature of WMF Office Actions creates the appearance that justice is not being done. Sometimes the appearance that justice is not being done is as harmful as actual injustice. If ArbCom is able to hold its quasi-judicial proceedings in public, is there a good solid legal reason why WMF Office Actions have to be done off-the-record, which makes them essentially invisible? I realize that in a few cases, such as pedophilia, the nature of the offense is so horrible that it is best to say nothing. But in general, if ArbCom can act publicly, why is WMF required to act off-the-record and so appear not to be acting? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:26, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not only that, their actions often appear capricious. It would be easy enough to, for instance, attempt a joint statement "By agreement with the WMF, User:Placeholder has had all privileges of editing WMF sites removed." If there is no agreement, the reason for the ban should be published. Either it is right and the editor will slink off with their tail between their legs, or it is wrong and will be challengeable. The WMF should not be banning people on shaky grounds, of course, so this should never happen. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:28, 19 July 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Why isn't there a sexual harassment policy for English Wikipedia?

Despite all the intense discussions, the site leadership has refused to create a sexual harassment policy for English Wikipedia. You have thousands of pages of policies, an admonition to "Be bold!," and even so, no sexual harassment policy. The first time I created a redlink space where somebody could create a sexual harassment policy, it was reverted as an act of vandalism! And in fact, the current Arbcom, which is composed of 14 men and only one woman, keeps arguing that no sexual harassment policy is necessary. If site leadership is so concerned about protecting women, why is it opposing even having a sexual harassment policy? If you think you will intimidate us by saying we shouldn't "bash" an organization that refuses to create and enforce a sexual harassment policy, think again. Even Gandhi said a woman is justified in fighting to the death when her honour is attacked.

I actually rather like Mr. Wales, and have publicly stated that I will have one of the people who sexually harassed him on this site thrown out of any event I attend. However, what we need is a modern, enforceable policy that protects Mr. Wales and his volunteers. Appeals to just "be nice" don't work without a police force to back them up. A modern sexual harassment policy that is compatible with the operations of European and US law enforcement is far preferable to campaigns of counterharassment and vigilante justice.

Other open source projects have like the TODO Open Code of Conduct, that prohibit sexual harassment. Why can't this one? --Djembayz (talk) 16:14, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss here. Regarding "site leadership", I'm not sure who this is referring to. YOU and every other volunteer is the site's leadership. CorporateM (Talk) 16:48, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question. Is there anything in particular that needs to be said either in a sexual harassment policy or in the harassment policy in general about sexual harassment? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:42, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't up to the ArbCom whether we should have a sexual harassment policy. ArbCom doesn't make policy. It applies it. If the community wants a policy, it should make one. A Request for Comments is the way to do that. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:42, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In a workplace, sexual harassment has two forms, which are quite different. The first, which is very clear and very serious, is attempting to obtain sexual favors in the workplace, and is unique to sexual harassment. The second, which is more complex and comes in shades of gray, is creating a hostile environment, based on a "reasonable woman" test. It isn't unique to sexual harassment, because an environment can be hostile to any of various types of employees, such as based on race or nationality, or on occupation within the workplace. Presumably the issue is the second type, which is why I am asking what should be specifically said about sexual harassment. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:42, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

tI could be a slippery slope. There are shades of grey so it's hard to have a one size fits all policy. What if the policy said "No sexual harassment is allowed. Right now it says no harassment is allowed, period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harassment That should cover sexual harassment. How to define sexual harassment exactly? It depends on context. Wikipedia doesn't really have strict rules, just guidelines, to encourage people to discuss and come to a compromise. Popish Plot (talk) 17:53, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think very similar arguments are raised anytime a change is suggested to any policy, guideline or essay. Our approach to handling complex and nuanced topics should be common sense and refinement over time, as oppose to inaction caused by the fear that we won't get it right. The current policy has sections devoted to stalking, legal threats and other issues, but nothing that is redundant with sexual harassment. CorporateM (Talk) 18:01, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It could be that similar arguments are raised each time because it's always a valid and accurate argument for keeping the harassment policy as is. It has nothing that is redundant with sexual harassment? Not sure if that is true. Popish Plot (talk) 18:24, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am unwilling to start this discussion in the Request for Comments section or the Wikipedia_talk:Harassment page, because I do not want to be harassed myself. I would like to request some of the respected male editors on this site to start the discussion, on behalf of myself and all the other women who are being intimidated here, at the Request for Comments section, and to advocate for respectful treatment of women. I do not think this is not too much to ask. --Djembayz (talk) 18:05, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

At least one male editor has asked above exactly what needs to be said in a sexual harassment policy that goes beyond the harassment policy. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:19, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I will comment that the lengthy discussion about whether a particular sexual insult (c**t) was really a sexual insult was disingenuous. In the times when the word has been used, it stretches the assumption of good faith to claim that it was not meant to be offensive. We certainly don't need a sexual harassment policy to deal with that word, when we have a harassment policy and a civility policy. So what should be added to a harassment policy or a sexual harassment policy about sexual harassment? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:19, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In that kind of case, someone using the c**t word, common sense should have prevailed, that it is obviously sexual harassment, no need for context. But apparently common sense did not prevail? Ok maybe we do need a list of banned words? Some sort of rule someone can point to so as to not have to waste time explaining to someone why the c word is sexual harassment, you'll never convince someone of that if they are not arguing in good faith and just want to harass women to get them to go away. You'd think that if someone really read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harassment they would come away from it realizing calling people vulgar names is not ok. I bring up common sense but I should realize that some people pretend they don't have common sense just so they can troll. Popish Plot (talk) 18:28, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See, it's exactly that I have a problem with. It's more the divide in values and difference between the US and the UK. The c word or twat or whatever in the UK are very rarely intended in a sexually provocative way, they're generally used for a contemptible, obnoxious idiot. Calling somebody the c word isn't pleasant, but it's almost as unlikely to be used for sexual harassment as "dick" is for harassing a male sexually. I know of nobody on here who fits the bill as somebody blatantly "sexually" harassing others.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:08, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on having a list of banned words should not be needed because I think it may be needed so people can't play dumb. So the c word is used as a joke in Britain? Ok. Say an british wikipedian uses it by mistake as a joke to describe an American female Wikipedia editor. That is offensive. Explain to them calmly why and if they keep doing it after, the playing dumb defense should nopt be applicable. Popish Plot (talk) 13:47, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The real problem, in my opinion, was not the word, as much as that the particular editor who used it is polarizing. Common sense did not prevail because that editor's defenders used a non-common-sense argument. The idea of a list of banned words has been proposed and rejected. I argued against it because it would permit editors who wished to be deliberately offensive to misspell words on the list and then claim that the word was not on the list of banned words. Anyway, now there is an RFC to add a sexual harassment section to the harassment policy. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:55, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh, I don't know if there is a solution then, if people would really play dumb and misspell bad words on purpose and then act innocent? Yeah that's real professional. Popish Plot (talk) 20:09, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

really, though, in that case the sexual connotation by itself is not material. Our policies and guidelines are that editors are, in essence, "in polite company." In polite company such words are not used casually to describe others. Saying that the words means "jerk" or "idiot" makes it worse, not better, as it's clear it's being applied to an editor. The defense that they were being offensive but not sexually offensive. What kind of defense would this be: "Yes, your honor I shot and killed her. But I used a .38 caliber bullet, not the .44 magnum. It would be wrong to kill her with the .44 magnum." If we're not going to enforce the civility policy in general, making it more specific so people start arguing about whether it was sexually incivil vs. just incivil isn't going to lead to more civility, it will just degrade the argument just as the above c-word argument has devolved and comparing it to run-of-the-mill insults makes it somehow more acceptable. Do we really want to excuse all incivility except sexual incivility so the argument always devolves into whether it it was sexual or not? That's where a separate policy is pushing us. --DHeyward (talk) 00:23, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's an example of non-sexist, almost certainly UK, use of the c- word in a recent bit of vandalism here: the lead sentence of Newcastle dab page modified to read ""Newcastle" stands for the shittest team going and biggest c***s going" (no asterisks used). I assume it's Newcastle United F.C. that the vandal had in mind. PamD 20:12, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, since folks keep claiming it's not a sexist term in the UK, let's use England's most notable, reliable, and respected dictionary: the OED. The first two definitions are about genitals ("The female genitals; the vulva or vagina.") and woman ("A woman as a source of sexual gratification; a promiscuous woman; a slut. Also as a general term of abuse for a woman." and "Sexual intercourse with a woman or women; women as a source of sexual gratification."). The third definition (much later in origin) is "As a term of abuse for a man." All compounds listed relate to genitals or women. The OED also notes "cunt remains the English word most avoided as taboo" and "it is now normally considered the strongest swear word in English". Even if it's being used toward men, it's still a strong swear word. Given that its history of usage was only for women and later applied to men, I would seem that the insult was intended to emasculate men. So I don't buy the argument that it's magically not offensive or not sexist in the UK. OED accessed online through university's library. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:05, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone wants to see some typical uses of the word in British English, to assess the difference between American and British usage, I would suggest reading The Cuckoo's Calling by Robert Galbraith (i.e. J.K. Rowling). À propos book recommendations and Americans in England: if you haven't already read them, @Jimbo Wales:, you might enjoy Watching the English by Kate Fox and Over Here by Raymond Seitz. --Boson (talk) 23:28, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

None of us are saying it isn't offensive to call somebody a cunt, it is offensive, whoever it is directed at. It is rarely used towards a woman though, and is almost always directed by a male towards a contemptible male without absolutely any female sexual connotation, much like "dick" is not meant sexually when you call somebody it. In the UK, yes, a lot of women dislike the word, I know a few women who'd be disgusted to hear it being spoken, but I think most would know that it isn't at all intended as a sexist remark. It's used as an insult for a male at least 95% of the time. I've never heard it used as a term for a promiscuous female, "slut", "slapper", "whore" are common terms, not cunt. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:34, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It appears the the British are not unaware of its meaning --It's "very offensive" -- well, why so? It is also a woman's sexual organ, and people don't like being called a part of a woman? -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:08, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The simple answer is that the Geek Social Fallacies are baked into psyche of the Wikimedia community. The GSFs and sexual harassment policies don't tend to work well together. Sceptre ^(talk) 18:04, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia does have a specific policy against sexual harassment -- however, it is buried in the morass of bad organization and meaningless blather that is WP:Civility. I proposed a rewrite at WT:Civility/sandbox some time ago, but nobody provided feedback on it. Really, I think we need to rewrite WP:Civility, merge in WP:Harassment, and once we have a single policy that is actually clear and terse enough for people to read, we can make a few carefully chosen statements in it about any special measures we want to take to improve the situation with sexual harassment. Wnt (talk) 23:53, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Civility and WP:NPA definitely need a rewrite. I don't know if they should be merged, but they need to be conceived as a unit, with different aspects. The civility component can then concentrate on being positively welcoming and avoiding things that turn away those who have a valuable contribution to make (be nice); NPA can concentrate on actual personal attacks and insults (don't be abusive) and the harassment component can concentrate on the more serious problem of persistent abuse and hate speech targeting individuals. Guidelines about not addressing other editors in the second person (for instance) serve no useful purpose at WP:NPA and just muddy the waters. I often think the people discussing these matters elewhere cannot have read the policy pages in question. --Boson (talk) 21:32, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Simplify and add more lightness" - please do take a machete to it. Guy (Help!) 09:10, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comment

Per @Djembayz:'s request, I have started an RFC here about identifying sexual harassment as a type of harassment in WP:HARASSMENT. Sexual harassment policies are quite ubiquitous in any workplace environment or online community and widely believed to be effective at reducing the number of incidences of actual harassment.

Djembayz expressed reservations about commenting, but I would encourage the opposite. We should hope to achieve a good number of female editors participating in the discussion, despite their demographical minority in the community. CorporateM (Talk) 19:27, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's already discussion on VPP about this. Move it there. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:48, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't compare workplace sexual harassment policies with anything we want here. Corporate sexual harassment policies exist as a response to laws and lawsuits. Their primary purpose is to protect the corporation from criminal and civil liability. As a side effect, it may protect employees but that's not their goal just as HR and Corporate legal counsel don't exist to represent the interests other than the corporation. Actions that can get victims fired are things like recording the harasser, retaining or having legal counsel present during interviews, refusing to cooperate in investigations, discussing the case outside of management or HR, etc, etc. Corporations respond to complaints but in a way that limits their exposure to lawsuits by any party. Wikipedia is also not in a position to do what the fundamental core of all corporate sexual harassment policies have at their core: training and signed statements that employees have been trained and are aware of reporting policies as well as the behavior polices. "Seek outside counsel" or "contact law enforcement" is not in any corporate training I have ever seen. --DHeyward (talk) 00:46, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The reason they are relevant is because it shows that sexual harassment policies are a de-facto standard of any code of conduct. Wikipedia probably has one of the most comprehensive codes of conduct in existence across its many behavioral policies, but we have a glaring omission. Also, if these policies "work" - meaning they reduce sexual harassment in the workplace - they will most likely work here to, and that's all that really matters. But of course our policy would be a bit different than a corporate one for the reasons outlined above. CorporateM (Talk) 16:37, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Internet Brands

Article has a "Controversies" section cited almost exclusively to primary sources. Some of the sources may say "Reuters", but are actually press release reposts. Despite our interest in the Wikimedia movement, I don't think a section cited almost completely to Wikimedia.org is an appropriate application of WP:WPNOTRS, which says that articles should be "based mainly on reliable secondary sources". WP:CRITICISM is also relevant in regards to a dedicated Controversies section. And it's common sense that losing one customer does not warrant a large devoted section.

I have raised the issue at COIN and it was archived without response. It was suggested that RSN may be more appropriate, so I went there and still no dice. It's especially frustrating because on the very same day I complained at BLPN about a dedicated controversy section on a BLP page on a topic where there was substantial secondary coverage and it was fixed in under 24 hours. This situation on a company page is much worse, given that the Controversy section is much larger and made up of primary sources, and I've been chasing it for weeks.

There has long been discussions about whether and to what extent BLP should apply to companies, but shouldn't we remove poorly sourced contentious material anywhere on any article, regardless of whether special policies exist or not? In a case like this, should a company post at BLPN and argue it falls under BLPGROUP? Why is it so hard for someone to get this kind of thing removed on company pages, but so much easier on BLPs?

I needed to vent/soapbox for a bit. Thanks for letting me use your Talk page for it ;-) PS - I am not affiliated with this company. CorporateM (Talk) 22:08, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for mentioning at the end that you aren't affiliated with the company. I was about to ask. :)

I am not sure from what you wrote why you raised the issue at COIN - do you have a COI of some kind? I think you are saying no. So then, why don't you just make the edit?

In this particular case there is a good argument for WP:NAVEL as relevant. We often put too much information in when Wikipedia is in some small way involved, and we have to consciously counterbalance that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:23, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It looks to me like a WP:COATRACK and I am far from convinced that the article should exist at all. Guy (Help!) 23:00, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Internet Brands is a well known and pretty important Internet company. Unlike companies that are direct brands themselves, they are an "aggregator" or "rollup" of many brands. So - not that famous, but I think important enough to have an article.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:44, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Prior discussion (and lack of response for some of these) at:

(that's for the ones I know of)

In the last of these listed prior discussions CorporateM declared to have "a very remote potential COI" (while prior to that I had thought his WP:COIN listing of the topic would have been inspired by all WP editors having some sort of COI w.r.t. the first subtopic of Internet Brands#Controversies, i.e. "... Wikimedia").

I think CorporateM has some legitimate concerns, but as for the Internet Brands "Controversies" section most Wikipedians (myself included) would probably not have many clues as to what this is about (to which I may add, the feeling that crept on me when reading the article's "Controversies" section was: pfui, IANAL, let's keep out of this... which I don't say in my defense). On the other hand, CorporateM's vagueness regarding their potential COI leaves me wondering who is defending what? So my first suggestion to that editor would be to give a bit more info as to the nature of the very remote potential COI, imho would make it much more likely other Wikipedia editors would respond to their requests.

A second recommendation involves the WP:RSN listing: the request was far from formatted in the "Source–Article–Content" scheme suggested on top of that page. Only the "Article" was clearly mentioned in the request, the rest was in the "here are some links, find out for yourself" format. There's no obligation to make a request clearer, but from my experience with that noticeboard, requests that aren't explicit on the suggested format more easily lead to non-response, and certainly when containing vagueties like "some possible COI but not really disclosed". --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:34, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's difficult to say whether I should have edited myself or not, or if I should have even disclosed, when the COI is remote. However, I deeply protest to this idea that so much information is needed about the exact nature of my COI. Are you planning on making different edits depending on what it is?

Lets say in one example scenario (a), I use to work there many years ago and in another case (b) a close friend works there and brought the page to my attention. What is the relevance to whether this is case (a) or case (b)? What use does the community have for this information? The only use of this information discussed is "curiosity".CorporateM (Talk) 15:38, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Re. "this idea that so much information is needed about the exact nature" – none of the info is "needed", I was merely trying to explain lack of response (including my own), replying to your question "Why is it so hard for someone to get this kind of thing removed on company pages, but so much easier on BLPs?": I think that at least part of the answer to that question is that unclear situations may have kind of a natural "let's stay out of this" response. But, thanks for the additional info.

I'm convinced that the RSN posting would have had a more effective response when listing (quite dryly): "I have a problem with using <named source X>, <named source Y> for <content Abc>". There also, as already indicated, nothing of this is obligatory, just ups the chance on an adequate response, speaking from my experience with that noticeboard. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:18, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

CorporateM - I went to make the edit myself but realized that there is one reliable source (Noam Cohen, New York Times) and so it probably merits a sentence or two. I went to the talk page to read what you might be suggesting, and noticed that you haven't posted on the talk page. Wouldn't that be the right place to start? I am at Wikimania and thus quite short on time, so I don't have time to read Noam Cohen's piece and work out the wording of a shorter mention. If you'll do that, I am happy to read and confirm that your proposal is good and NPOV and make the edit. Before I do so, though, I'll also ask for review as to whether the community feels that I have a conflict of interest. (As I am trying to *reduce* the amount of negative information about this company, I think it's hard to make the case that there is a problem with that, but if anyone feels so, then I'll bow out and help you find another editor to make the edit.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:19, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's something fishy been going on here. I see there's one sentence about all the different websites this company owns, and they all have links; many of these were worked on by User:LoveWikis (now blocked for promotion/advertising) and User:LuvWikis (also blocked for the same). I don't really have the inclination for user investigations but I wouldn't be surprised if more can be deduced. Going forward, it might be best to merge many if not all of the sites back into the main article; you can then make the sections of that article be the different websites, and you can put stuff like the Wikitravel controversy under a ==Wikitravel== header instead of a ==Controversies== header. Wnt (talk) 01:17, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, I see it. There is one good source in all that mess. NYT, which is one of the best press sources around. I've taken a quick shot at summarizing it below.

Summary of NYT source

"Internet Brands acquired Wikitravel in 2005 for $1.7 million. After it introduced advertising, the following year many volunteer contributors left, because they didn't want to donate their time to a commercial website. The Wikimedia Foundation introduced a competing website, and lawfully began the site using thousands of articles from Wiki-travel that were under a Creative Commons license. This led to a legal dispute when Internet Brands alleged Wikipedia users were encouraging WikiTravel users to shift to the Wikimedia-owned competitor. Internet Brands said this was an unfair business practice, among other things. The Wikimedia Foundation filed a counter-claim calling the lawsuit intimidation and saying that forking is lawful. Internet Brands said Wikimedia made a copy of its own Wiki-travel website. The two organizations attempted to reach a compromise unsuccessfully."

I didn't participate on the article Talk page, because I would prefer they not know I was involved in their page. (though as a side-note, nobody has participated there in more than 2 years as well). Regarding the potential COI, I am not concerned about it personally and won't scream foul, so that depends on what you're comfortable with and if anyone else wants to raise a red flag. Making obvious counter-COI edits use to be one of the exceptions in WP:COI and it's not as if avoiding certain situations will result in you not being trolled - you will be trolled no matter what you do. CorporateM (Talk) 07:20, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Re. Wikitravel as a separate article or not: I have no opinion, but if it isn't merged as Wnt proposes, a similar attention might go to Wikitravel#Community fork in 2012 (and its references). The boilerplate notice of the Wikitravel article (linking to Wikivoyage) is maybe also a bit blatant?

The Community fork section of the Wikitravel article ends with a settlement in February 2013, sourced to C|Net – if there was a settlement, that might be useful to inlude in the Wikitravel section of the Internet Brands article too, of course referenced to the best available sources.

Further, for sourcing (general remark), I don't know whether it is needed to use this exception, but a section of WP:V, WP:CIRCULAR, second paragraph, allows to source information about Wikipedia, in article namespace, to Wikipedia and its sister projects (with caution etc...). Maybe this doesn't apply to the Wikimedia Foundation. Was just thinking about it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:58, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

& more to be looked at: Wikivoyage, particularly Wikivoyage#History, and the boilerplate notice with a cross-namespace link to Wikipedia:Wikivoyage (and not linking to the non-Wikimedia related project). --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:11, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The WikiTravel page seems to have the same problems and is probably where this originated. "In 2012, after a lengthy history of dissatisfaction with Wikitravel's host and owner Internet Brands" That is not quite a WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim, but it's a pretty strong one that requires a very good source, but instead it's cited to broken links to primary sources from WikiVoyage. "The dissatisfaction related to long standing discontent at poor hosting, poor site updates" again cited to WikiVoyage itself. One of the sources is literally a mailing list. I think this is difficult to fix, because Wikipedians tend to defend content that suits their interests and POV.

My take would be to mention it on the Internet Brands page and let it stand as a section, as it is now, on any sub-pages where more detail is appropriate. Internet Brands has about $100 million in revenues and they bought WikiTravel for $1.5 million. It's a tiny blip in their business history. CorporateM (Talk) 09:30, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is pretty shameful; in comparison we have a very respectful article on Britannica even if we do compete with them. CorporateM (Talk) 21:30, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can Administrators get blocked

Good morning, Jimbo Wales. I've come here to ask a question.

Can a adminstrator block another administrator and can you block an administator

I just wanted to know, because I do not know the answer. Please leave your answer/reply here, Thanks if you answer.

Ayaz1989 (talk) 11:49, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good question. I would like to know a clean simple answer also. On another note, the asking editor has an edit history only a couple of days long and exhibits a fairly high level of editing sophistication which is a red flag for a SOCK. They are also wikilinking to user subpages which is rather odd. Nyth63 12:09, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, an administrator can block another administrator. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 12:45, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They can also block themselves. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:12, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Very easily done. Black Kite (talk) 13:21, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is an ArbCom case currently in the workshop phase about an administrator who blocked another administrator and whether the block was improper. So, yes, an administrator can block another administrator, and it can be a controversial action. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:16, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Are you referring to the case where Administrator 1 protected a page over a controversy, Administrator 2 edited said page (and made similar controversial edits) only like one minute later, and Administrator 1 blocked Administrator 2 for editing through that protection? If you don't know what case I'm referring to, my apologies, but I can't seem to find the case myself, but if it's the same one as you are referring to, you should know... If this is really just something completely unrelated, you won't know what I am talking about, and I will strike through this... Dustin (talk) 18:43, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kww and The Rambling Man, currently in the workshop phase. I won't discuss the case further here, but it does involve an administrator blocking an administrator. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:47, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just let Admin_{i} indefinitely block Admin_{i+1} for i = N-1 till 1 where N is the number of Admins and then Admin_1 (a.k.a. Jimbo) can implement a new system to manage Wikipedia :) Count Iblis (talk) 22:05, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To answer the second part of your question, yes Jimbo can block an administrator if he wishes to do so. In fact he can block anyone and has done so in the past.--5 albert square (talk) 12:31, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo's last block, we can read here: "In August 2009, the Committee found Wales to be in breach of the blocking policy in his block of Bishonen, and acknowledged his "permanent abdication of the use of the blocking tool"." Count Iblis (talk) 18:38, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Jimbo's last block was in 2010 on User:196.212.0.35, ironically (given the content of the arbcom motion) with no block notification posted on the IP's talk page. Brustopher (talk) 19:43, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What about this edit in 2013? Nyth63 23:18, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's a page protection. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:07, 20 July 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Science and Art together

Nothing to see here. Elvis has left the building – repeatedly. Favonian (talk) 16:53, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Hello Jimbo Wales! I want to ask your help. I already asked at another user, but he nothing knows on that issue. And he forbid me leave my topic on talk page of relevant article. By all these reasons, I ask you: Who was first to use this scientific algorithm (original: author or resource):

«The word “semantic” stands for “the meaning of”:

The Beatles were a popular band from Liverpool; Lennon was a member of the Beatles; "Hey Jude" was recorded by the Beatles»

You can ask question to Tim Berners-Lee even (if you do not know reply). Thank you!!! - Proni25892 (talk) 14:16, 18 July 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Going out the door now, but.... the stilted English, phrases used here, Russian punctuation, use of random brackets in prose and edit summaries, interest in the Beatles and appeals to Jimbo.... all very reminscent of blocked sockmaster User:Need1521 or parent sockmaster and community banned User:Crazy1980, (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Need1521 or recent history of articles such as More popular than Jesus or Russian Orthodox Church.) I'll file another SPI when I get back. Valenciano (talk) 15:55, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Last night at Wikimania, there was a Beatles cover band at the reception at the art museum. I thought our repeatedly blocked friend may find that interesting.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:52, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ha, I hope we don't end up with two articles on the same subject, but this is one case where deleting one shouldn't turn the other into a redirect. EllenCT (talk) 17:34, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Important Issue!

There is no article about importance on Wikipedia. Hasn't there never been anything extensive published about what what we mean when we say something is important? I'm not being facetious. What a strange omission, for mankind never to publish anything at length on importance. Chrisrus (talk) 15:03, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think that Wikipedia's policy on notability is essentially the same as a policy on importance. How do they differ? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:55, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a question about why we don't have an article on 'importance', or a policy on the subject? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:01, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon, @AndyTheGrump: Not a policy, an article on the concept of "importance".

We have things like WP:MEDORDER which specify that symptoms of human medical conditions, for example, are more important than descriptions of the conditions in other animals. But I think you want something more like [2]. Both of which, by the way, if applied together to Wikipedia editing in general, might tell you that [3] is the most important information to add, once it makes it into a WP:MEDRS source, of course. But since importance is very situationally dependent, it makes sense that the encyclopedia has no article on it. I like the pointer to Wiktionary. EllenCT (talk) 17:55, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@EllenCT; Good and Evil are situationally dependent, but we have an article about them because the major minds wrote about that concept. If none have done that about importance, then there's not much Wikipedia can do but wait or cajole, because it's the most important referent not to have an article. Chrisrus (talk) 21:41, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unlike Wiktionary, Wikipedia has articles on words only when the words themselves have been the subject of notable discussions or controversies, as illustrated by one of the discussions above. Wikipedia normally has articles on concepts. When the same word can refer to different concepts we usually have a disambiguation page linking to the articles about the different concepts. I have therefore created a disambiguation page, linking to the meanings of importance that I can think of and that I can imagine a reader to be thinking of.--Boson (talk) 19:42, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Boson, am I to understand that nothing on the topic of importance per se has ever been published anywhere WP:RS? If so, philosophers should get on it right away, because it might be important. Chrisrus (talk) 21:41, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What I am saying is that "importance" is a word that is used for different concepts and that we have articles on, at least, some of those concepts. When talking about VIPs, the concept referred to is probably social status. When talking about whether something is important enough to be included in Wikipedia, we are talking about something like notability, and there is an article on that. When talking about what is important to a person, we are talking about personal values, and there is an article on that. The word may have other meanings that should be added to the disambiguation page. Perhaps we also need to link to an article on decision making models that discusses relative importance. "Importance" may be important in cognition, so it might be appropriate to link to an article that discusses the importamce of importance in that context. Once we know what concept the article is about, we can decide if we think that is the primary meaning of the word "importance", in which case we might want to rename the article to reflect that. Are you thinking of a particular concept? In other words, what do you mean by "importance per se"? --Boson (talk) 22:25, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree we should have one. Importance is important. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:33, 19 July 2015 (UTC).[reply]

I'm not so sure. Value (personal and cultural) seems a little undersupported to me. I still like [4] a little better, but maybe not forever. EllenCT (talk) 00:09, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A kitten for you!

Thank you so much!

Oeoi (talk) 17:13, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, you can put kittens on the Internet? Why did nobody tell me? Guy (Help!) 20:44, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, reports of children expressing their appreciation for turtles. EllenCT (talk) 00:10, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 62: / Line 62: @@
 :::Who's against the BBC guidelines? Did you read them? "'''The BBC does not ban words or phrases.''' However, it is the responsibility of all content makers to ensure strong language is used only where it is editorially justified. The acceptability of language to intended audiences should be judged with care." (My added emphasis.) That seems a very sound guideline. The decision-making process to ban or not ban words or phrases because of the offence they give (or the lack of offence) would be invidious because of the global nature of WP. It would be quite wrong to impose the standards of Washington DC or of Britain. Why ban the c-word but fail to prohibit mentioning [[Muhammad]] without [[WP:PBUH|PBUH]]? If you're going by the the greatest offence to the greatest number, the latter has it. Civility in a global arena is a complex question and there will never be a solution based on the narrowness of "what offends me is uncivil, what offends you is [[WP:NOTCENSORED]]", which is what so much of this boils down to. [[User:DeCausa|DeCausa]] ([[User talk:DeCausa|talk]]) 20:05, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
 ::::To use another example that works in the other direction, what about the word spaz? As an American that is completely innocuous, so it would be ridiculous to ban it because some people are more familiar with its other meaning. [[User:The Blade of the Northern Lights|The Blade of the Northern Lights]] ([[User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights|<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい</font>]]) 21:51, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
-:::Thanks to [[User:DeCausa|DeCausa]] for the response, which is making things clearer for me. <small>(Please bear with my beginners' approach in this post, as for all I know you helped write BBC guidelines yourself or specialize in this area somehow.)</small> My primary interest isn't civility as a principle, or how to define what's considered offensive; my bottom-line concern is safety, as in physical safety.
-:::Mostly I just want to stay safe. Same goes for other folks editing here. You may think that it's silly and unreasonable to feel unsafe as a result of banter, arguments, and a few sexual terms used by people on the Internet, but recent events ([[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreather|1]], [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate|2]]) do demonstrate that situations can go out of control.
-:::Since this website is open to the public, and the options for keeping bad actors out are not as robust as we would like, there's really no way to know for sure who you are dealing with here, or what their intentions are. There is often no way to tell what's going to develop into a problem until it is too late.
-:::Most of us don't live in [http://www.ontario.ca/home-and-community/we-can-all-help-stop-sexual-violence jurisdictions like Ontario that are making a major effort to enforce against harassment and assault of women], and there will be very little support from law enforcement when these incidents occur.
-:::The wisest move for women who are uneasy about the sexual content in the language used in interpersonal interactions is to break off contact and withdraw, as unobtrusively as possible, so as to avoid unwanted attention.
-:::If some cultures have an interaction style with regards to use of gender-related sexual terms that frightens people in other cultures, especially women, then the editors who are scared are not likely to be full participants.
-:::It is not clear why it is necessary to use gender-related sexual terms in interactions with other editors in order to write about non-sexual topics in an encyclopedia. It is clear that some members of the community are insistent that anybody who is scared of interacting with strangers who use gender-related sexual terms should just go away.
-:::<small>(Sidenote: Men also don't like being sexually harassed. Some here have told me privately that they don't like dealing with gender-specific insults and language. Historically, many men have experienced considerable suffering themselves as the result of sexual assaults, especially among prison and military populations. It may not be as easy for men to step forward when sexual harassment or abuse occur, and there are some types of suffering unique to men, but trauma and abuse is still suffering, regardless of whether it's men or women.)</small>
-:::Right now, it appears the plan is to keep telling people that if they are scared by the way we interact on this website, we will tell them they are wrong to be scared.
-:::We will tell volunteers that it is their responsibility to develop legally sound turn-key solutions, free of charge, and convince the rest of the community to grant them the authority to start enforcing these sanctions in their spare time.
-<small>
-:::As a part of this process, volunteers like me are supposed to come up with adequate responses for trained lawyers like Mr. DeCausa. He is no doubt tearing out his hair by now (if he is reading this) at my lack of understanding of the law, when all that was really needed in a response was specifying how "The acceptability of language to intended audiences should be judged with care" can be applied to the facts at hand, and developing an appropriate line of argument.
-</small>
-:::If Mr. D. (or anyone else) has somehow managed to wade through all this, my basic point is pretty simple:
-:::I just want to stay safe, and not be scared all the time editing here. Some of the gender-specific sexual language used here scares me, especially when it is used by angry people, and I'm [https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2014-July/004497.html not the only person] who feels this way. Having expressed my concerns, is there anything you can do in this regard to help? --[[User:Djembayz|Djembayz]] ([[User talk:Djembayz|talk]]) 02:17, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 == The WMF and Harassment, in and beyond Lightbreather ==