User talk:Floquenbeam: Difference between revisions

Notes Normal humans: I'm not online very often these days, and when I am, I don't have much stomach for anything complicated, stressful, depressing, or time consuming. You're still welcome to post here, but it's unlikely I'll be able or willing to help in a timely manner. Admins: I'm not online very often these days, so if you think an admin action I've taken in the past is wrong or no longer useful, go ahead and undo or change it without feeling like you have to talk to me first. WP:SOLVED WP:LIGHTBULB WP:VOGONS WP:BEDFELLOWS

Folly, thou conquerest, and I must yield! Against stupidity the very gods Themselves contend in vain. --Friedrich Schiller

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Based on your comments at the top of the page, I'm considering blocking you as NOTHERE, ALMOSTNOTHERE, and/or/but INCOUNTENANCE. This is your final warning (until the next warning, which may not be placed HERE).--Bbb23 (talk) 15:34, 3 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What's a "No There" block? --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:46, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More than Almost No There.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:59, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think it may have been miswritten. It is a there is no there there block. Risker (talk) 00:02, 6 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I never misrite anything.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no "There is No There There" Cabal cabal. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:32, 6 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

June

Cornflowers

There's the cabal of the outcasts thanking you for your appreciation of member (by what he did, like yourself) Malik Shabazz. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:46, 6 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Same cabal - with a new member it seems - thanking you for a clear statement about not wanting to serve a certain system. I remember the last time well that I debated with myself to stay or not (2012). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I just was removing vandalism and came across that was he threatening me ? my first time with that kind of situation was kind of lost with that Jack90s15 (talk) 01:49, 6 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jack90s15: What was going on:

• There was an article with some pretty dubious BLP-violating information.
• An editor gutted the article with an imperfect edit summary
• I presume you thought this was vandalism and reverted (adding back dubious BLP-violating info, presumably by accident)
• They removed it again
• You reverted again and warned them on their talk page for removing sourced info (understandable, but not really appropriate in this case)
• They replied, saying that the police had been notified (presumably to track down who added the BLP-violating info in the first place) and asking you not to revert again
• I noticed this, removed the BLP violations, and left a note on their talk page that they need to be aware of our NLT policy, and noting you are probably not who they are reporting to the police.

The take-away is:

• People should clearly explain what they're doing in edit summaries
• People who are doing anti-vandal work need to pay close attention to what they're reverting. It isn't a race.
• People need to not make legal threats.

--Floquenbeam (talk) 14:05, 6 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the rundown of what happened and the useful insight I appreciate it Jack90s15 (talk) 02:11, 7 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2019).

Administrator changes

Andonic • Consumed Crustacean • Enigmaman • Euryalus • EWS23 • HereToHelp • Nv8200pa • Peripitus • StringTheory11 • Vejvančický

CheckUser changes

Ivanvector

Guideline and policy news

• An RfC seeks to clarify whether WP:OUTING should include information on just the English Wikipedia or any Wikimedia project.
• An RfC on WT:RfA concluded that Requests for adminship and bureaucratship are discussions seeking to build consensus.
• An RfC proposal to make the templates for discussion (TfD) process more like the requested moves (RM) process, i.e. "as a clearinghouse of template discussions", was closed as successful.

Technical news

• The CSD feature of Twinkle now allows admins to notify page creators of deletion if the page had not been tagged. The default behavior matches that of tagging notifications, and replaces the ability to open the user talk page upon deletion. You can customize which criteria receive notifications in your Twinkle preferences: look for Notify page creator when deleting under these criteria.
• Twinkle's d-batch (batch delete) feature now supports deleting subpages (and related redirects and talk pages) of each page. The pages will be listed first but use with caution! The und-batch (batch undelete) option can now also restore talk pages.

Miscellaneous

• The previously discussed unblocking of IP addresses indefinitely-blocked before 2009 was approved and has taken place.
• The 2019 talk pages consultation produced a report for Phase 1 and has entered Phase 2.

Regarding Wikipedia:Community response to Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram: throwing yourself under the bus is both brave and understandable, but this may not be the right bus. What happens if Fram diffuses tensions by agreeing not to edit WP until the present crisis is resolved, in exchange for an unblock? What happens if Jimbo, or the board, or someone else steps in and puts things on hold? If there are just a few casualties (such as you) and then there's a sudden lull, then maybe everything will turn out fine ... or, maybe, to make a point, the WMF will insist that the casualties stay dead. Food for thought. (Feel free to delete this message if you don't want the drama spilling over onto your talk page.) - Dank (push to talk) 14:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hesistate to make this comparison, because this is many orders of magnitude less important. I am not equating them and me, just trying to explain the general point. But I do recall many people thought that sitting at lunch counters where you weren't welcome was needlessly disruptive and provocative, and that discussion and persuasion where what was really needed. I really, really do not want to be part of a system where "the WMF [gets to] insist that the casualties stay dead". So if I'm permanently desysopped, I wouldn't want to be a sysop anyway. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:00, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, I don't know if you know this, but I've lived in or near the lunch counter city for 30 years now. I'll support whatever decisions you choose to make; I just want to point out that there's a whole range of provocative actions you could take as an admin short of unblocking. (I can think of a couple but I want to stay above the fray, for now.) Your call. - Dank (push to talk) 15:13, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to suggest that unblocking now would deprive the WMF of the opportunity to right this themselves, and push them into a defensive stance on the issue. I think the better part of valor would be to wait 24 hours to see if Jimbo or others in the Foundation come around to this first. bd2412 T 15:47, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that rushing to action is counterproductive. We should remember that while as volunteers we can speak and act whenever we think it is right to do so, WMF employees can't always respond on the same basis. Presumably they will need to have discussions among multiple people, review of any replies, etc., and that can take some time. This is especially true if there is any sensitive information involved that requires extra scrutiny of what they say and to whom. It seems foolish that they weren't better prepared for pushback, but given that it seems they weren't, we should expect some lag in their reaction. --RL0919 (talk) 16:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One of the issues I have with these arguments is what happens to Fram's reputation. Waiting for a reply allows doubt to creep in, people to think, "well maybe they were right, maybe the reason for the ban is something so egregious it warrants swift action and zero communication." I don't get the sense that's what happened here but instead that one or more people snitched to the WMF because of hurt feelings and the WMF felt the need, now, suddenly, to uphold civility issues. But we can't know until the WMF responds. In the meantime, per community norms, only the en.wp community can enact an en.wp ban and desysop. Victoria (tk) 16:41, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wanted to make sure you saw this post in response to your question about what arbcom knew - not that there's much information in it, but of course while I was posting at ACN, Fram's comment was cross-posted to BN and everybody went to look over there.

Also, I'll be in a meeting at noon San Francisco time, and if all hell breaks loose then, it'll be really hard to get any work done! Please schedule your drama at a more convenient time, such as when I can get popcorn. (I'm kidding, but I'm also hoping we can take some time to sort out what exactly is going on without more drama, and less than two hours from now, while a lot of us are doing our day jobs, is a short deadline. I realize "I'd be sad if you got desysopped and I could have maybe done something about the situation but I had to go to a meeting about molecules" is an extremely self-centered way to think about this situation, but I haven't had time yet this morning to figure out what's going outside of my own brain. Incidentally, I did miss my bus..... Anyway, maybe give it till tomorrow, at least?) Opabinia regalis (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A meeting about molecules? That's tiny matter in the scale of things ;) Sitush (talk) 17:29, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All hell need not break loose; WMF can choose what to do next. And I imagine the meeting will be Fram-centric no matter what I do. No, I'm resolved to wait only until the time I grudgingly agreed to wait earlier. Enjoy your molecule meeting, though. I wish my real life meetings were about molecules, they'd have a much higher chance of being interesting then. Which should give you an idea about how interesting my meetings are... --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You made me post from my phone, which I hate! Yeah, the problem is that the meeting is interesting; I wouldn't mind so much if you were distracting me from a meeting about TPS reports (oh good, I typed "TPS" and predictive text knew what I was going for). I've always been impressed with your willingness to go ahead and get shit done, in cases where I'd still be hemming and hawing. I can't say "you guys should wait because there's significant progress happening behind the scenes" but I can say "I dont think this is likely to prompt any new progress, and might actually reinforce some bad ideas some people have". Opabinia externa (talk) 19:05, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Couldn't find the whiskey, sorry. Best of luck mate, whatever happens. ——SerialNumber54129 19:02, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank fuck. Now I've got a few hours to dig out the uisce beatha :) happy days, and many more of them. ——SerialNumber54129 19:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Can I have this now? Or do I have to wait? --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nevermind, i can surely have it *now*. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Make it a double...? Good man. 19:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

[1] Black Kite (talk) 19:02, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

had not seen that, and had the unblock all typed out. thanks for the note, BK. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We’ve had plenty of disagreements but I really valued your approach here. Sincerely. That WMF pop in with minutes to go with another boilerplate is unbelievable and insulting. Thank you, on this instance, for upholding the real values of Wikipedia, I will never forget it. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This was so clutch. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking your principled stance, which apparently at least achieved some transparency and hopefully accountability too. EllenCT (talk) 19:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No sarcasm -- you will forever go down in my book as one of the best administrators of Wikipedia.--WaltCip (talk) 19:28, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks guys, but... (looks down and shuffles feet) this is embarrassing. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree completely with the sentiments expressed by the editors who have already posted on your talk page. Thank you many times over Floq. MarnetteD|Talk 19:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

	The Tank Man Award
	You did it. You put yourself out there and you got their attention. And maybe, just maybe, even a start toward a resolution. You are a hero today. MelanieN (talk) 19:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well now you're just embarrassing me. On a good day I have 1/100,000 the courage that guy had. Please don't say stuff like that. I mean, thanks, of course, but please don't. Some might interpret that as evidence my motivation is personal attention-seeking. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:32, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	Good move. Brave, possibly foolhardy, but if you have to go through RfA again I'll be adding a strong support for you doing the right thing. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have rarely seen someone with such integrity, kindness and courage. Well met. Isa (talk) 19:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All of these things. It transcends any rift. Well done. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

+1 Sitush (talk) 19:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, mate. --Golbez (talk) 19:47, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That was a very brave move you made, even if it doesn't work out, you have shown yourself as a very courageous individual. Kosack (talk) 19:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, "courageous" is a very good word. Lepricavark (talk) 19:52, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All of the above, with bells on. --bonadea contributions talk 19:52, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from me as well. We'll see whether WMF is willing to declare war on the community over this and possibly whether the community is willing to stand up for itself.--Carabinieri (talk) 19:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Never was a barnstar more aptly named. Here's hoping that sanity prevails and this isn't the start of a wheel-war.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:00, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Great work. I'm not surprised to see you acting so boldly in the face of something so iniquitous. Cassianto^Talk 21:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

	The Admin's Barnstar
	Going against the opinion of those one might see as superiors is an action that ought to be merited with plaudits. Please accept this barnstar as but one of many. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 19:46, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

== A barnstar for you! ==

	The Special Barnstar
	I'm not sure that I agree with what you did, but I appreciate that you did what you could to defend your values. StudiesWorld (talk) 19:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Having thought more about it, I have come to the conclusion that I strongly disagree with you and believe that you acted inappropriately due to a lack of information. However, I think that we all got swept up into a mob mentality and you were not alone in wanting this action. I am ashamed of my role in this mob and hope that others will reconsider their positions. StudiesWorld (talk) 01:30, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	Thank you for your actions! Huldra (talk) 20:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

	The Special Barnstar
	Your unblocking of Fram is not only brave but it's also very much appreciated so thank you, If I could I would give you all of the beers in the world and then some!, Thanks again, –Davey2010Talk 20:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

	The Special Barnstar
	However this ends, I stand with you. EclipseDude (Chase Totality) 20:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

		The Socratic Barnstar
		You are a credit to the world we work in Nishidani (talk) 21:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, yeah, another award. I know you're being flooded with these. I appreciate your willingness to potentially sacrifice yourself for the good of the wiki, though, and I thought that deserved a reward. Thanks for your amazing adminning. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 21:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Got you a beer. I'm actually in a secret cabal, and will block you in a half an hour from a never-before used WMF account, so get ready for that. Don't worry--I won't explain why. In the meantime, enjoy. Thanks Floq. Drmies (talk) 22:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I trust Drmies won't mind my butting in here, but I hope you, Floq, don't mix the beer with the tea – might make for too many bathroom trips. If, given the situation, you'd like me to get you an antacid or a sedative, just let me know. Anyway, thanks for standing up for what's right. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

	The Admin's Barnstar
	In recognition of what is probably the boldest admin action I've ever known. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:31, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have very little idea what's going on, but congratulations on decisive and brave action. Yngvadottir (talk) 23:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And thanks as well. If the WMF desysops you for undoing an office action, you can count my vote for your re-sysopping RfA. I don;t believe it will come to that, though. In any case, thanks for acting. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:07, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean you don't think a RFA will be necessary? You could be right, the way I read the WMF's statement, we're free to reinstate Floquenbeam after 30 days without a RFA if we desire. The same I think we can with Fram after their ban expires or is removed. Nil Einne (talk) 00:43, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone is applauding you, Floq, but you must have known there would be repercussions to your undoing of an Office action. I see it was more important for you to stand against an unfair (or at least, unexplained) WMF action than be concerned about your own status. While that is admirable, I guess I'm selfish because I don't want Wikipedia to lose you as an admin. Personally, while WMF has been less than transparent, I think we don't know all of their reasons but that is my opinion because I've only made my way reading 1/2 of the page where this all has been discussed.

I just didn't want to it to get lost in all of the congratulatory messages here the bigger fact that we don't have you to rely on as an administrator, and that is a loss to the entire community. Maybe we're at a point where you don't care about that anymore but I (and I'm sure I'm not alone) DO care and I hope that in the days to come, we can all welcome you back to the admin community.

I'm pessimistic that this situation will not be resolved to the community's satisfaction because we are just volunteers and the WMF is a wealthy nonprofit corporation. But, at some point, I want to see you back on the boards, setting editors straight, exiling trolls and offering your no-nonsense but always on target opinion that comes from years of working on this enormous project. We'll be here whenever you want to return to adminning. Peace. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's more than being an admin. Like integrity, doing what's right, being willing to sacrifice for the little guy, etc. Floq gets this and gets my utmost respect for following through on a proposed action. When I started editing there were a handful of WMF staffers. How did they get to be wealthy? Not by churning out featured article after featured article for free or for wielding the mop, doing the dirty work. Hat tip to you Floq. I wanted to give you a lovely barnstar thingie, but can't think of the right one. Anyway, be well. Victoria (tk) 01:22, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your courage; you have our support, whatever happens. What a fucked-up place this has turned out to be. All the best, Miniapolis 01:51, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I too am with you on this. I wish I could do the same. Enigma^msg 01:51, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		I support you standing up to the WMF. Benjamin (talk) 00:54, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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