User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The current trustees occupying "community-selected" seats are Doc James, Pundit and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is Jan Eissfeldt.

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I think you and the WMF owe all of us an explanation. I'd point out that a failure to sort things here will likely result in further, extended turmoil. Fromtheolddays (talk) 11:34, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

See here @Doc James as well, it's still an ongoing discussion. Grüße vom Sänger ♫ ^(talk) 12:27, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A statement in a new section at WP:FRAM would be great, when you're done. Thank you. starship.paint (talk) 13:44, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy, there was a very troubling allegation made at the discussion around this issue, and I'm afraid it may get lost in the noise, because if true, it would indicate that the Wikimedia Foundation did not fail to consider or communicate well, but is instead actively going against the interest of the communities it was founded to support. [1] I would not normally give much credence to such an allegation without such evidence, but I have also never known Risker to say something careless or thoughtless, and I know she does indeed know and talk to several of the people involved. So, I'll ask you directly—is this true? Does the WMF actually have an end goal of undermining the communities' independence and taking more authority on at a global level? Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:34, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(+1). If this was someone else, I would have discounted it but Risker is too credible. ∯WBG^converse 16:36, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(+1). Agreed. With I think all of the above - explanation, statement, allegation. Shearonink (talk) 18:24, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(+1) If the WMF's goal is to undermine the autonomy of our communities, then we are in a constitutional crisis. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:35, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I mean technically none of this is new or against the TOS. They just choose not to act on the power they have that often. Constitutional crisis or acting like this is a new thing is just incorrect. In the end it is their sandbox. PackMecEng (talk) 20:43, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As soon as we take that defeatist perspective, it is game over. It is NOT "their sandbox." There was a Wikipedia before there was a WMF. It is a legalistic ownership entity with the task of software development and site maintenance at a macro level, and coordination of convention events. The local Wikipedias are supposed to be autonomous and self-governing. Carrite (talk) 02:04, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is not defeatist, it is how pretty much every website that has users is run. It cannot be completely autonomous and self-governed for a host of reasons, mostly legal. The question is where in the margins and split is. Ultimately though, final call is with the office, not volunteers. Wikipedia is not owned by volunteers, technically never has been. PackMecEng (talk) 03:05, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) It cannot be completely autonomous and self-governed for a host of reasons, mostly legal It's clear that the WMF ban of Fram was not legally necessary. Thus, your point about the community being unable to be 100% self-governing, while likely true, is irrelevant. Nothing is preventing the WMF from allowing its communities to be more self-governing than they currently are. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:11, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's clear that the WMF ban of Fram was not legally necessary. Based on what? My understanding is there is still a bunch of private information on the case. Thus it is unlikely to be a provable statement. Also to a point you are correct, WMF can allow the volunteers to be more self-governed or they can choose not to and it is 100% their call to make. PackMecEng (talk) 03:45, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All indications are that the case was entirely about Fram's on-wiki conduct, which is viewable in the revision history unless something got deleted. So the evidence is all public. It's like when someone is arrested on the basis of a security video, and the video is public, people examine it and can't find the crime, and the person is convicted without the authorities identifying the crime either. Sure, there may have been a private complaint, but if a crime took place it must be in the video somewhere, so it should be possible to locate it.

Also what is this about "the WMF's communities"? It's really supposed to be the communities' WMF. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 05:56, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Except there are also indications that there is private information. Is all the info on-wiki somewhere? Perhaps we do not know, there could be off wiki but private info. (I doubt that btw, but still possible) The other issue is sure, the info is probably on wiki. What was the info they used? Finally in the end, does that actually matter? PackMecEng (talk) 13:38, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The most obvious private information is communications from individuals, communications that could be used to identify individuals and subject them to retribution. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:53, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I may be mistaken, but it appears to me that some users have lost sight of the fact that WMF's primary duty is the future of the project first and foremost - which is what we all should be thinking about rather than who gets to control whom. WMF is governed by established By-Laws and the members comprising the Board of Trustees are responsible for seeing that the Foundation's governing documents are properly (and legally) followed which includes taking care of their fiduciary responsibilities. Let's just say there are justifiable concerns that incivility has become a serious issue, and a volunteer (or 2 or 3) have become a liability to the project for whatever reason. It is the Board of Trustees' duty (and fiduciary responsibility) to find ways to protect the project first and foremost. It's quite possible their choices may not always align with ours (the wider community), much less garner widespread community approval. Jimbo has done amazing things for WP, but when push comes to shove, his legal obligation is to the project first, and so it goes for all the members of the Board of Trustees and the entire staff of the WMF. They have a heavy cross to bear. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:41, 16 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PacManEng, Atsme, yes it definitely does matter. There's no need to publish anyone's private correspondence with the WMF but if the offending activity was on-wiki then the rest of us can examine it with our own eyes. There are zero examples of clear harassment on-wiki because if there were any, they would have come up in on-wiki dispute resolution long ago. If there is an unclear example then the WMF had no fiduciary duty to do anything about it (since it's unclear), and anyway that would have come up in DR too. And if there's a pattern of low level unpleasant interactions that the WMF decided required intervention from them, then they could give us a big pile of diffs showing the pattern they acted on. There are undoubtedly dozens or 100s of such interactions so giving us the diffs wouldn't identify the particular complainer. In fact there are so many potential complainers with similar interactions, that they could leave out the diffs involving the real complainers while still giving us something to go on. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 02:02, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps that would of been nice of them to do, though not required. They saw an issue and corrected it. Strictly speaking from a rules standpoint the only ones going against the rules are the two admins and bureaucrat that knowingly abused their tools to make a point. But the office was nice enough not to continue action against them. PackMecEng (talk) 03:49, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They did not abuse their tools. They acted to protect the project from a hostile takeover attempt. T&S said they would block/desysop anyone who unblocked Fram. Floq unblocked, T&S desysopped Floq. Then Bish unblocked again and WJB resysopped Floq, and T&S didn't carry out their threat that time, i.e. they backed down. The pushback against them was successful and hopefully slowed down further incursions. If the 3 of them broke WMF rules, it's up to WMF to do something about it, but T&S instead turned the matter over to us. If you are saying they broke OUR rules, you have to tell me which rule, and whichever rule you name, I'm going to say that particular rule is not firm, and I know that it's not firm because none of Wikipedia's rules are firm. And they made a good call in deciding to ignore whatever rule you're going to say they broke.

We should not be doing T&S's dirty work. We should be giving medals to those 3. If T&S wants to smack them they can do it themselves and take the blowback themselves. That's what they said they would do, but then they thought the better of it. Of course T&S still acted stupidly, but they could have been even more stupid, and I'm glad they weren't. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 16:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was a wheel war(also note the office is not subject to that only admins), unblocking someone they shouldn't, and giving tools back to someone that had them removed. The rest is just not what happened or what the rules are. Frankly all three should lose their tools but I doubt that would happen. PackMecEng (talk) 17:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You doubt it would happen because they have the broad support of the community and arbitrators from what we can tell so far, and the T&S department does not. EllenCT (talk) 18:20, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, poorly thought out tantrums of "I do what I want!!1!" The same garbage that makes the office intervention necessary. When rules no longer have meaning someone has to step in and correct the situation. PackMecEng (talk) 18:29, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What rules? We used to have rules that judgements would be made in the sunlight. Now nobody knows what the rules are because accusations, evidence, and trials are secret when a clique who can't bother to refer civility issues to the arbcom says they need to be. How are we supposed to know anything about the standards to which we are expected to adhere? How can anyone know that those standards don't take second fiddle to powerful connections of complainants, especially under these circumstances in which they were introduced? Why are other projects with rampant racism, sexism, authoritarianism and ethnicity-related abuse left twisting in the wind while T&S targets a 14-year admin with a clean block record for holding a well-connected editor with a decade of serious English composition and sourcing issues to reasonable competence standards? EllenCT (talk) 21:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The rules I was talking about is WP:OFFICE which the three involved willfully violated for WP:IDONTLIKEIT reasons. The stuff about other projects, it's whataboutism. But just because there are issues elsewhere does not mean they should not be fixed here as well. PackMecEng (talk) 22:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

IDONTLIKEIT is a content essay. IAR is policy. The community believes that banning Fram does not improve the encyclopedia. The only harassment of which we know for certain he's been accused was absolutely in furtherance of improving the encyclopedia, seen as harassment subjectively by those who hold harmony and tranquility above our editorial, copyvio, and sourcing standards. Perhaps the superblock guy has good reasons that would convince me, but nobody can tell until the T&S civility criteria are known. EllenCT (talk) 23:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

IAR does not apply to office and TOS actions, you know that. Also I am dubious of anyone that cites IAR anymore, this many years in there is generally a system in place for anything. Which in there case there was it's just as I said no one cares because "I do what I want!!1!" as I mentioned before. PackMecEng (talk) 00:29, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How do I "know that"? If by TOS, you mean the Terms of Use, have you even read it? It says:

"Especially problematic users who have had accounts or access blocked on multiple Project editions may be subject to a ban from all of the Project editions, in accordance with the Global Ban Policy. In contrast to ... these Terms of Use, policies established by the community ... cover a single Project edition...."

There is nothing in the ToU about partial or temporary bans. This policy change doesn't just lack the consent of the volunteers who provide the content, the new policy wasn't even properly noticed by the Foundation in their own Terms. EllenCT (talk) 02:50, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This was not a global ban so I am not sure why you would link there. The relevant polices for what the office did here can be found at WP:OFFICE under primary & secondary office actions. Which includes partial foundation bans and removal of advanced rights. All covered by the terms of use, as explained there. That is why I linked it early on, since all the relevant policies are there. PackMecEng (talk) 13:57, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[2] was instituted without community discussion or prior announcement. What part of the Terms of Use are you saying "covered" it? EllenCT (talk) 22:35, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Section 10, clearly listed there and was referenced in the comments by the WMFOffice account here. Heck that change was from February, not exactly out of nowhere at this point. PackMecEng (talk) 00:37, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's the section I quoted above: "In contrast to ... these Terms of Use, policies established by the community ... may cover a single Project." Was there any more notice given to the WP:OFFICE policy change than that single diff? EllenCT (talk) 03:12, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

From what I can track down here, it is the outcome of this from March 2018. PackMecEng (talk) 14:42, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme. the WMF responsibility to to support the movement, not undermine it. They must see that it acts legally, but this had never been a problem--for actual illegal conduct on WP, such as that involved in childprotection, their work is fully supported by the community; for matters such as copyvio their role--and a role they do excellently--is to protect the contributors against unwarranted copyright claims. Civility between members is indeed a problem for the communities, and the enWP community seems to have standards in this field that I consider absurdly permissive, but they're not illegal, and I am not at all sure that my own more conventional standards have consensus. If the WMF had actual expertise here, its support would be to help us move them in a more responsible direction by developing better mechanisms that we would regard as fair and effective . The recent event(s) show it has no realistic concept of either fairness or effectiveness--in camera proceedings are not fair, and if needed at all should be limited to true emergencies; and action taken months after the offense is not effective.

It has been obvious for some time that the WMF staff would like to run WP. That is not their role. Their role is to support WP. The proper role of the board at this point is to restrain the staff from taking a course that would destroy WP as an open voluntary movement. DGG ( talk ) 09:08, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Any updates? 172.58.59.159 (talk) 20:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Any updates? Carrite (talk) 13:05, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Sheep get fleeced, or so I'm told. And what's more valuable than fleece? or money? Time! So we've all got lots of time invested here, and if you ( and I say you because I don't know enough about the structure/platform to fight back effectively) don't fight back, all or a lot of that time is going to get stolen from you. Easy choice, accept the fleecing or fight back. I'll join whatever resistance is mounted, if possible. Nocturnalnow (talk) 05:05, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Who is this "we" you speak of with an investment in the encyclopedia? You've made, what, 2 edits to article space in 2019? --JBL (talk) 21:01, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No wonder the kids have trouble with math. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:12, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Count 'em. ‑ Iridescent 22:25, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To spell it out, its not very mathematical to count the number of anything in 2019, think hurricanes, and take that as a representative mathematical sample. Good grief. Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:31, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What you just wrote is meaningless gibberish. To spell it out, you do not contribute to the encyclopedia. --JBL (talk) 11:29, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

At this exact moment, I am contributing to a discussion about the future of the encyclopedia. I say that is contributing. If I were making ad hominem attacks on you, that would be not contributing at all.

I get it. This "what happened at the board meeting" discussion is a tough one. Its easier to go off on a personal tangent than entertain, think about, even discuss hard choices relating to the topic at hand, but I encourage you to force yourself to get your focus on the topic and not dissecting individual words like "we" that others are expressing. AGF. Nocturnalnow (talk) 19:09, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I seem to recall when this hell broke loose that I was encouraged to wait until it was "office time" in California. That was a couple of weeks ago. Jimbo, what's happening here? The absence of communication and leadership is apparent and absolutely unforgivable to our community. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:21, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I do note you have time to Tweet on other unrelated events though. Such a shame you can't give us some insight here while you're tweeting on other events. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:52, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I remember that too..something about "they're not even awake yet in Cali." That was the first mistake...keeping anything important in la-la land.

• Still in a holding pattern. Carrite (talk) 05:43, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Recent and ongoing discussions reveal that most editors and the WMF itself are under the assumption that the WMF is in charge here, but who decided that? There was a Wikipedia and Wikipedians long before there was a WMF. I've been trying to trace the history of the WMF, combing through interesting links like the old mailing lists and the first revision of the WMF bylaws to find where and when this change was made, but I figured it would be better to just ask you. It seems like, in those early days, it was your intention that the community have authority over content, conduct, and all matters other than the behind-the-scenes "development and maintenance" on the project. But in the years since, the WMF has made a number of increasingly disruptive decisions, changes, and power grabs, inconsistent with their original goals, all while ballooning into an expensive, dysfunctional bureaucracy.

Who gave them that authority? You? The community (Ha!)? The clueless donors enabling them with the power of the almighty dollar? What basis is there for them to dictate to the community, and at what point exactly was that power ceded to them? Thanks. 2600:387:A:9A2:0:0:0:6 (talk) 15:54, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be under the impression that Wikipedia was just an independent community group before the WMF was created, but that's not the case; it's always had an owner. Initially, it was wholly owned by the private company Bomis; in 2003 Bomis transferred the assets to the WMF. The issue being raised by the current discussions isn't who ultimately controls Wikipedia—nobody disputes that the WMF owns the assets and takes on the liabilities, and has the technical right to boot whoever they like—but an ethical issue of how much the owning body should intervene and under what circumstances. ‑ Iridescent 16:16, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Much as I appreciate the input, I'm asking Jimbo directly what his intent was all those years ago, and for his take on how we ended up here. He's the only one who can answer that. How the WMF operates today seems very different from his espoused philosophies back then. I don't doubt that the WMF (and Bomis before them) owns the physical servers, the web address, and the branding rights, but do they own the content? Do they own the community? Since when? 2600:387:A:9A2:0:0:0:6 (talk) 16:42, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Anon, I was here before the WMF was created and was part of some of the discussions. Jimbo himself was widely considered "in charge" in the early days of the project, despite various competing claims, and began to make an earnest effort to devolve and distribute that power starting in late 2003. This led to the creation of the WMF, the arbitration committee, OTRS, the independence of the mediawiki software, and formalization of Wikipedia-related trademarks. Jimbo's goals then were for the community to be self-sustaining and self-governing such that it would fulfill its mission with less of his involvement as time went on. It was never a goal for the WMF to have any sort of authority over or involvement in community or content decisions beyond the removal of libellous material and copyright violations, which the WMF took on for reasons of compliance. You might also contact BradPatrick or Danny Wool who could tell you more. UninvitedCompany 18:06, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is pretty accurate as a too-brief summary of the history. This is an edited version of the key sentences as I would put it myself: "Jimbo's goals then were for the community to be self-sustaining and self-governing such that it would fulfill its mission with less of his involvement as time went on. It was never a goal for the WMF to have any sort of authority over or involvement in community or content decisions beyond the removal of libellous material and copyright violations and other limited actions for public safety of various kinds, which the WMF took on for reasons of compliance." And that isn't the whole of it really, I would also argue that the WMF can and should have a role of facilitating and guiding community consultations to help the community resolve sticky issues where there is a failing of process. Reading between the lines here, you can likely guess my view of the current situation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:02, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the response. "...the WMF can and should have a role of facilitating and guiding community consultations to help the community resolve sticky issues..." I hope you realize that the community won't support that, no matter how you dress it up. It would give the WMF the potential to be judge, jury, and executioner, even if only in what they deem "sticky" situations - like when the community takes action against a change the WMF tries to push through against community consensus, whether that be visual editor, blocking a long-term admin, or whatever. As you know, those examples aren't hypothetical. Same anon, different IP→107.242.117.56 (talk) 14:56, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You have clearly misunderstood what I said. Nothing about "facilitating and guiding community consultations" even remotely implies that I think they should be "judge, jury, and executioner". I don't even know what chain of thought got you from one to the other. The point is that there are things we know to be true: there are very few admins created and while most people (the vast majority) think that's a problem, there is no consensus and no process towards consensus towards resolving that issue. It's a thankless task to take on and run a project to work through various options to find something that would get us to a better place - no one has stepped up to do that (a few have tried, and thank goodness for them). WMF community support people have done a great job on consultations around terms of service and so on - we do have some positive examples of how to do this right. It isn't about ramming things down people's throat - it's about taking on the hard job of listening and framing debate, convening real-life groups to work on issues, etc.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:51, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, you added "and other limited actions for public safety of various kinds," above, and that, to me, feels like an attempt at rewriting history; since I wasn't there, I can not say for sure. This whole thing feels weird...really weird...to me. It feels to me as if WMF has got you and the rest of us checkmated (I believe you are always on the side of the community), perhaps because of some rules or regulations, new or old, and you are in full blown damage control. Nocturnalnow (talk) 01:36, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Or, this is a matter of public safety, which demanded immediate expansion of WMF's authority? just thinking out loud. Nocturnalnow (talk) 01:40, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If this were a "matter of public safety", WMF failed in a different way. If Fram is genuinely dangerous, he is still allowed to edit other projects, and here again in a year. If allowing him on the project truly is a safety risk, he shouldn't be allowed on any of them again at all, not just be banned from one for a year. But I do not remotely believe that's the case. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:48, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As far as instituting new Foundation-imposed, project-specific bans, foundation:Resolution:Delegation of policy-making authority gave them the authority to modify the Terms of Use to allow it, but they never actually made the necessary ToU modifications before making an unannounced, undiscussed edit to WP:OFFICE here and on Meta back in February. The only member of the community who noticed the change at all was the German User:Sänger, who asked for a community consultation on Meta, and was told there was not and would not be one. The Board could rescind their delegation of permission, and the community could ask admins to e.g. modify MediaWiki:Editpage-head-copy-warn with a description of why it's necessary and how to contact the Board with the request to do so. I feel this is a use-it-or-lose-it situation. EllenCT (talk) 18:19, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo,

It's been ten days since the out-of-process action of the T&S department, and since then our community—your community—has been tearing itself apart. (Being a Brit it's a reflection of Brexit, except in this case there is a deafening silence from the powers that be). Since then the community has raised several fundamental problems with the WMF and T&S (and this is aside from the potential COI which has been brushed under the take with the incredibly crass comment by the chair of the WMF Board likening anyone who complained to Gamergaters).

The question is: how little do you want of the community at the end of this? Delaying everything further and further is just pouring petrol on the fires, and the time for clear statements and decisions was some time ago. Are the community's legitimate concerns (and those of the German, Belgian and Chinese projects) constantly going to be pushed onto the back burners? If so, I'll give WP five years tops before it implodes into smithereens - ending with a whimper, not a bang.

WP was built by volunteers donating time, effort and money, and this is seemingly being wasted by silence and paralysis at the WMF. It needs to be rectified sooner, not later. - SchroCat (talk) 19:28, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, I have not spent the last ten days ranting and raving and issuing threats but I am deeply concerned about this debacle. I really recommend that you and Doc James make a statement very soon. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 22:20, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am staying away from the discussions out of respect for you and the rest of the board. I think we all look forward to a comprehensive, cogent reply. UninvitedCompany 23:02, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We on the board are in active conversations. I think you will receive a comprehensive, cogent reply, but we are looking to be thoughtful, reflective, to examine every aspect of this, and neither allow invalid precedent to be set, nor to set invalid precedent. The best way to avoid a bad outcome is to look to first principles, look at what has gone wrong, and to propose a process for healing but also for building a process that works better in the future.

In those board discussions, I am stating my own views directly and clearly, but it would be inappropriate to share them here and now, because as we all know, there are those who like to engage in "Jimbo said" argumentation, which doesn't clear the air but instead often only creates more heat.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:58, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy, The longer this is knocked into the long grass, the less likely tempers are to cool. Nothing will happen over the weekend, so the next time they get into the office, we'll be at two weeks after the initial ban - and this is something that (apparently) several people within the organisation had prior knowledge of. I know you all want to put an full statement out to everyone trying to settle everything at the same time, but the view from the coal face is either that you (as an entity) are all stalling, and/or the increasing annoyance at the Jan Eissfeldt's 'non-comments' which don't shed light on a way forward, but (again) only come across as a stalling tactic, while also giving the impression of "you're going to get nothing out of us, you peons". I thought we were supposed to be open, honest and transparent around here (with obvious safety exceptions)? It increasingly feels like the opposite: closed caucuses in smoke-filled back rooms is what the community feels is going on. Trust in T&S (ironically) and Jan Eissfeldt is incredibly low at the moment - it feels like a stitch up job. Some form of interim (but concrete) step towards enlightenment is what is needed in the short term (ie in the early days of w/c 24 June) - and not another Jan Eissfeldt statement that provides little light but generates a lot of community heat.

Jimmy, you need to understand that there is a lot of anger about this - not in defence of Fram as an individual, but in the way T&S/WMF have utterly mishandled this whole affair. There will continue to be speculation on the potential COI and all the other myriad perceived offences of the WMF staff until a decent explanation is forthcoming; with that increasing speculation, the trust and disharmony within the community will grow like a rather unpleasant cancer.

And having no appeals procedure in place? Please - that sort of thing goes against every form of natural justice I can think of. Fine to retain it for the total site-wide eternal SanFranBan for real crimes and real safety, but for a partial, time-limited ban over a perceived infringement in a grey area - that needs a whole different approach, and I'm surprised T&S are so far removed from the realities of WP editing (and common sense) that they can't see that. - SchroCat (talk) 16:03, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "and neither allow invalid precedent to be set, nor to set invalid precedent." This is slightly alarming to read, because it implies that the board (or at least many people on it) recognizes that they screwed up in this case, but that they're worried about backing down because it would "set a bad precedent" - hence the constant, baffling insistence by some representatives of the WMF that WMF bans cannot be appealed, something that is bad policy, demonstrably untrue, directly contradicts your own statements on the subject, and which therefore harms relations with the community every time it is repeated. "I can't back down, it would set a bad precedent!" is an extremely unhealthy attitude for anyone in a position of authority to have. --Aquillion (talk) 19:40, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Aquillion: that could also be read to mean a concern with Fram's actions/comments was bad/invalid grounds for a ban, and would set a bad precedent if it's allowed to stand. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:40, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh, yes, I absolutely think that Jimbo thinks Fram's ban is a bad precedent (the full context of the quote makes it clear he's talking about bad precedents on "both sides", so to speak.) That gave me the impression that he would prefer to just reverse the ban as a "bad precedent", but that others have their backs up and refuse to allow it because they feel that anything that gives the appearance that WMF bans are appealable, regardless of situation, would itself be a bad precedent; and that he's being diplomatic and trying to find a way through this standoff. I mean this is all reading tea-leaves, obviously, but it fits the behavior and stances taken by the major actors involved... and if it's the case, I hope at least some people in a position to do something about it recognize "never admit fault, it sets a bad precedent" isn't the sort of outlook someone on the board should have. Especially if the precedent they're concerned about is "WMF bans are not appealable", something that is not and will never be true. The WMF will and must back down if they make a severe enough mistake; this cannot be avoided. Everyone involved knows this. Therefore WMF bans are always subject to at least informal appeals, and pretending otherwise only serves to exacerbate tensions with the community. Even Eissfeldt's However, despite efforts by some community members to scrutinize the contributions of Fram and various people who are speculated to have complained to the Foundation, the community does not and cannot have all the facts of this case, meaning that NYB’s condition is not met response to NewYorkBrad, made in the same breath as he tries to insist WMF bans are not appealable, implicitly acknowledges that under the right conditions the WMF would have no choice but to accept an appeal. --Aquillion (talk) 20:44, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

what's the rush ppl.. really 4 weeks is nothing for anything that matters. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 21:12, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. If it was important it would be relatively easy to arrange a conversation about all of this. No communication sends a message that this is not important enough to deal with. Justice delayed is justice denied should still mean something here - even if trial in camera and without appeal is someone's idea of a "normal" process - SchroCat (talk) 16:03, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, three years is nothing for anything that matters. Maybe we'll all get a vote? "We send the EU $50 million every day. Let's spend it on our NHS instead!" Michel Barnier 123 (talk) 21:27, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said before. I see this as just another incident moving our societies toward even more authoritarianism, always with the best intentions and usually some twisted and arcane laws/rules/reasoning to justify how the increased authoritarianism is in our, the masses, best interests. The really interesting and defining part of all this is likely to be, imo, how the community reacts, if at all, when the increased authority of the WMF ( temporary or otherwise ) is explained and justified, as I expect it will be...all in good time. Nocturnalnow (talk) 19:33, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If this was a clear, justifiable and open action that the WMF have policies and pathways for - something planned and known about in advance, not just an off-the-hoof action - then it should not take ten days for this to be investigated and explained. In the global world of modern communication techniques, the most numbing excuse I have seen so far for the lack of answers is "we can't arrange a telephone call". That's fine; we'll just rip ourselves apart a little further and sow more seeds of distrust and disharmony waiting for someone to be able to schedule a phone call on something they are picking up a salary or expenses for. - SchroCat (talk) 19:40, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You know, the other part of this is that even if people find themselves in more of a master/slave relationship in any situation, e.g. citizen vs. government, employee vs. boss, editor vs. WMF, this is the norm throughout human history and maybe we have just been lucky enough to have been part of 1 of the temporary ages of enlightenment? If this trend, imo, toward dramatically increasing Big Brother authoritarianism and castration of freedoms of speech, thought, association, and press ( Assange ), is too strong to resist successfully, there will always be the opportunity for people individually and collectively to do good works and still be considered a "good slave". Sometimes people just have to accept the reality that people/we are coming under unreasonable authority and make the best of it. Lots of Chinese people have become wealthy, arguably more freer, and perhaps quite happy over the past 30 years and yet, has the level of authority really decreased that much? Maybe a bad analogy, I'm just saying, sometimes people throughout history have had to accept being pushed around by various authorities and make the best of it or run away from it. Could be Wikipedians' turn.Nocturnalnow (talk) 19:55, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just wondering why we expect the board to say something quicker than we expect arbcom to make a statement.. Considering the way they operate isn't too different. People doing something a couple of hours on the side. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:08, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As I’ve said above, as this is supposed to have been a planned action by the Office, they should not need to investigate 101 actions by individuals: they should already have done this and be able to justify their actions rather quickly and clearly. Arbcom have to do the investigative process before they make a statement. Two weeks to explain actions they should have details of at hand is 10 days too long. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Jimmy, I think your "looking to be thoughtful, reflective, to examine every aspect of this, and neither allow invalid precedent to be set, nor to set invalid precedent" approach is wise and constructive (and I thank you for it). But do you think that, while you (and the rest of the board) are working to get your "comprehensive, cogent reply" together, it is helpful for Jan Eissfeldt to be issuing further "We're in charge, we can't be questioned, and it remains unappealable because we say so" responses? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:47, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I think that one takeaway from this is that Eissfeldt should not be talking to the community as a representative of the WMF in the future, at least not during a crisis; he does seem to have a flair for pouring oil on troubled fires and a very poor understanding of what sort of things you should say to get freaked-out Wikipedians to calm down. --Aquillion (talk) 19:43, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• While his responses have been ... Bad, I do want to ensure that he at least gets credit for stepping out from behind the role account. Tazerdadog (talk) 19:49, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, WP:CONEXCEPT states:

"Decisions, rulings, and acts of the WMF Board and its duly appointed designees take precedence over, and preempt, consensus. A consensus among editors that any such decision, ruling, or act violates Wikimedia Foundation policies may be communicated to the WMF in writing."

Where do we write to explain that the Terms of Use (Section 10, "...in contrast to...") is inconsistent with the Office actions policy? Would doing so open a formal review by C-level management? EllenCT (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Quite honestly, I'm inclined for that to very literally mean "write". I've half a mind to actually print off the relevant portions of that discussion and send it to them by good old snail mail. Maybe once they see that stack of paper, they'll be inclined to do more than give the "Hey, we'll do what we want, piss off" responses that we've gotten so far. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:33, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I take it to mean something entirely different, EllenCT. There you go - different pespectives. What it reads to me is that if a group of editors reach a consensus (decision, ruling, or act) that violates WFM policies, that's not a good thing. The WMF's appointed designees take precedence over such a consensus and preempt it. Editors cannot overrule WMF policy by consensus so any editor who disagrees with whatever editor consensus decided can send their complaint in writing to the WMF. Perhaps WP:NPOV is along that same line - it cannot be changed even by editor consensus. I may be wrong but that's how it reads to me. ^Atsme _Talk �� 22:49, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So putting it on parchment in calligraphy isn't likely to get it out of the circular file? This is why I think a notice petition targeted to editors only via MediaWiki:Editpage-head-copy-warn, warning them that they are now subject to an unpublished behavioral policy in contravention of the ToU and asking them to email the individual Board members asking them to pass a resolution to impose Newyorkbrad's compromise and rescind foundation:Resolution:Delegation of policy-making authority is the right compromise to something more drastic like a sitenotice, striking, or forking. That is minimally targeted to the affected audience only asking for the minimal sufficient resolution and prevention. EllenCT (talk) 23:48, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, WP:OFFICE, which since 2017 has stated that some bans are unappealable, says at the top that it was, "established by Jimmy Wales." Is that accurate? EllenCT (talk) 20:35, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It’s the same old thing. Draconian rules are made to confront horrible crimes, but they end up being applied to misdemeanors, especially when committed by political enemies. T&S seems appropriate for handling things that could turn into criminal or civil litigation. However, when the problem is an administrator using naughty words like “fuck” and “bullshit” too often, that’s better left to ArbCom. There has been no indication that this Fram incident needed to be handled by WMF. It looks like some insider got angry at Fram and decided to do them in via non-appealable process. Jimmy, I challenge you to prove otherwise. Initially I supported WMF and told people to calm down, but the more I dig into it, the worse it looks. Jehochman ^Talk 23:44, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I reached a similar but slightly different conclusion, especially in light of the Belgian incident. I think the very concept of T&S was fundamentally flawed from the get-go. It's ridiculous to ask us to TRUST T&S simply because they were trusted members of the community before. When you elevate a volunteer into a paid employee with a narrow mandate, they can hardly be expected to act for the community at the expense of the mandate. From the Belgian incident, it is clear the mandate of T&S is to protect WMF from any trouble, however minor, however ridiculous. Obviously, this has meant T&S cares not about due process, nor about being fair to long-time contributors. If something could possibly end up giving them a headache in the future, they excise it (it always seems to mean involved contributors) mercilessly. In other words, a single contributor to wikipedia is ridiculously expendableto them, forget innocence vs. guilt-- that doesn't even feature into the decision process of T&S.

I just started contributing to wikipedia,and for one reason alone. I wanted to give back to this community but have not dollars. I spent a whole day reading through the relevant documents in-wiki and that is the conclusion I came to. So, if I reached a wrong one, something's gone horribly wrong in the handling of this affair. (I am reserving judgement on whether Fram did or not deserve what he got, that's not even the issue here, although it is somewhere else.) So, as above, a challenge is extended to prove otherwise. Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 03:15, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to see you coming around on this, Jehochman. It wouldn't hurt for you to go back and amend your comments in the community discussion elsewhere (I had to really bite my tongue when I read them...). Jimmy, where are we at on this? Has the ED even been informed of the situation? Has the board given her direction, and if so, what? Carrite (talk) 05:10, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the ED is aware. The board is still discussing with each other and with staff. I'm a participant in this but not in a position to say when it will come to a conclusion.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:18, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Was this FRAMBAN sanction approved by a lawyer? What I see of Jans experience looks pretty thin. He’s not a lawyer, he isn’t a native English speaker nor a linguist, and he’s a recent university graduate who studied philosophy. That’s very nice but probably doesn’t qualify him as an expert in the matter which he ruled upon. Most importantly, he was not selected by the community, so none of us have any reason to trust him. I think ArbCom would have been a vastly superior entity to decide his case. If WMF receives an anonymous complaint, why can’t they refer the matter anonymously to ArbCom for resolution? Why did they choose to bungle it themselves? Jehochman ^Talk 11:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Without commenting at this moment on any of the rest of it, I can say that I do not know, and don't personally consider it particularly relevant or interesting, whether legal was consulted beforehand. I don't think legal is the right avenue for any of us to be thinking about how to improve things in this or in related circumstances.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your thoughts. When personal conduct of an employee is an issue, it is common to check with legal to make sure the response is appropriate, proportionate, equitable and free of bias. I know a volunteer isn't an employee but I’d like to think we maintain the same high standards. You weren’t sanctioning an obvious vandal. This was a highly trusted member of the community. This should have been checked and rechecked to make sure it was appropriate and a clear explanation should have been made available from the start. If you can’t explain something clearly, then you don’t understand it well enough yourself. I'm also concerned that WMF encroached on ArbCom's mandate and was much worse than ArbCom would have been in handling this matter. Jehochman ^Talk 14:34, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is a flowchart (File:Trust and Safety Office action workflow.png, uploaded 6/17 by a T&S employee) implying that WMF Legal is a mandatory stop before blocking. Jan posted it at the top of their 6/17 reply to the "community response" discussion. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:43, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Jimbo, great fan of Wikipedia here! I saw your invitation to edit your page and decided to give it a try. A couple days ago, I slipped in a "the". It had stuck but somewhere it got lost and then another user added it again, so it's still there. So, I tried to do something bolder and changed about 2.5 words. Got immediately caught by the wikipolice. They don't even discuss the merit of the edit. All they say is I can't change someone else's words. I know it's not good to change someone's comment for it might accidentally end up changing their meaning too. But, I genuinely believe your invitation to edit implied exception to that. So, what do you think? Should I take the matter further to try and get in edits in there, or is your invitation just there for aesthetics? (No offence intended, just don't know how else to put it). You have my eternal respect for giving the world Wikipedia!Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 13:30, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is regrettable, on my review I think it was a small enough change that it didn't change the meaning of what was written. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 14:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but it did spark off a very amusing edit-war over 'parallelism', so not all bad... -- Begoon 14:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I firmly believe it should be called "Rhombusism." This is just one of my outré grammar positions. I'm working on a pamphlet. Dumuzid (talk) 14:55, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we could run both names side-by-side for a while...? -- Begoon 15:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't look at all the edits reverted back and forth, I'm glad that I didn't revert to it myself now that I see that. Your comments made me have a good laugh Begoon thanks. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 15:45, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I came upon this today in The Economist Expresso; "An anti-Brexit demonstration in March was the biggest protest since the Iraq war."

So, in my mind, that is a reminder that with the passage of time the overreach and wrongful exercise of authority by people who have been given authority (in the Iraq war case, Tony Blair) all is forgiven, forgotten and the abusers ( imo ) of such authority often return to places of respect and leadership ( e.g. Blair and W. Bush).

In fact, such authoritarianism (imo) is and has been so common and so often with regard to extreme matters of life and death ( usually unnecessary wars ), that its likely naïve for anybody to be very surprised or upset by what's going on here.

When the authoritarianism is such that it riles up large segments of the effected community, e.g. Vietnam War, whatever got the Yellow Vests thing going, segregation laws in the USA South, "Let them eat cake" in France, "Tea tax" in the USA, the super aggressive (imo) treatment of Aaron Swartz and Julian Assange, the effected community has only 4 choices that I can think of:

1: Do nothing and try not to think about it too much

2: Accept and rationalize the justification for the abusive authoritarianism

3: Demonstrate/Protest against the specific incident/event

4: Revolt against and strip away the authority of the specific regime.

In this particular matter, I do not, as someone alluded to earlier, have enough experience or skin in the game to, with authority (pun), guess or propose which of the 4 paths the community should take, but I can offer my opinion based upon what I've seen within this community and read about the current state of affairs which is:

Choice 3: is a no-go. The personalities of the editors are simply too cooperative and peaceful to choose this. Also, since I do not hear about any substantial demonstrations on behalf of Assange near where he is imprisoned, I just don't see the passion and time dedication necessary to do that, and even if it were to be done, the authorities have become super psychologically effective at appeasing and or waiting out the demonstrators; Macron being the best I've ever seen. Also, if the authorities are determined enough, they can usually keep doing what they want to do for years, regardless of the numbers or passion of the protestors (Vietnam War).

Choice 4: This is the least likely yet most constructive and courageous choice for the project, imo, however I do not have any idea as to how to go about this, though I think others here do know exactly how to go about it. Least likely for a whole host of reasons, primarily a lack of passion.

Choices 1 or 2 or a combination thereof: Extremely likely especially given the constant turnover of new editors and the more sheepish nature (imo ) of the younger generations as they stream into this and other platforms. Also, the overwhelming majority of editors know nothing about this whatsoever. Those who voice such anger and disappointment have not, as far as I know, taken any action to inform the general public ( which is the only way to reach the majority of the editors, imo ). Nocturnalnow (talk) 14:57, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This weekend I was out on Lake Pepin in my sailboat. Alone. I was thinking of Wikipedia.

I thought of everything I did to lobby for the creation of the arbitration committee, to make it successful, to strike the balance between transparancy and effectiveness. I thought of the work I did as an early OTRS volunteer to ensure that it was the community and not the paid staff dealing with routine requests. I thought of the community backlash I endured from dealing with an administrator conduct matter where I could not defend myself without disclosing confidential information. I thought of all the times I turned the other cheek, and of all the civility discussions with Anthere, and the efforts to set limits, and lead by example, and to be the light for others to follow. I thought, in short, of everything I did to further the goals of a self-governing community.

And I thought of how we are now on the cusp of the moment where that no longer matters.

Peace

UninvitedCompany 19:10, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]