Talk:Catalan Republic (1931): Difference between revisions

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Catalan Republic was copied or moved into Catalan Republic (1931) with this edit on 23 October 2017. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

So, as a spin-off from the 2017 discussion that decided that, since there was no unequivocal evidence that the republic ever existed, only that a declaration of independence had been made, it should instead be merged with the article related to the declaration of independence, I thought I'd look at the references to this article. What I see here is that the same thing appears to have occurred - none of the references cited here unequivocally states that a country existed in the two days between 14-17 October 1931. Instead we have:

1) A first-hand account of the events on 15th April 1931, apparently written at the time, re-published in El Punta Vui. This is not a secondary source stating that a Catalan republic existed. Much less one stating that one existed between 14-17 April 1931.

2) A 1932 article from Time that describes Catalonia as being part of Spain, albeit with increased autonomy.

3) Juliá, Santos (2009). La Constitución de 1931. Lustel, Madrid pp. 31-32 ISBN 978-84-9890-083-5 - I do not have access to this reference, but it is only being relied on in this article to describe the general situation in 1931, and not the existence of a Catalan Republic.

4) Balcells, Albert (2006). «El reto de Cataluña». La Aventura de la Historia (15). ISSN 1579-427X - similarly to 3) above, I don't have access to this source, but it is not being relied on in this article to substantiate the existence of this state.

5) A 1931 New York Times article that explicitly describes Catalonia as "staying in Spain" after "announcing they would be independent". This substantiates that a declaration of independence was made. It does not substantiate that a state actually existed as a result of it.

What we appear to have is a conclusion reached by editors based on original research - that a Catalan Republic existed from 14-17 April, 1931. This is not permitted. If no evidence that this state actually existed can be found in reliable, secondary sources, then it should be re-named "1931 Catalan declaration of independence" or something similar. FOARP (talk) 07:30, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose rename. Francesc Macià proclaimed the Catalan Republic on 14 April 1931. A provisional government was formed, and the government of the Spanish Republic negotiated with this provisional government, after which it disestablished itself in favour of autonomy within the Spanish Republic. A Google Books search of "Catalan Republic" 1931 gets plenty of hits, showing both that adequate sources exist and that "Catalan Republic" is both a natural and a common name. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. It does not require a test of whether a thing "really existed" in law or in fact, only whether reliable sources exist for that thing, and that thing's name. Scolaire (talk) 11:34, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Scolaire, firstly, this is not a rename proposal but a question as to sourcing (as in, there isn't any). Please go and look at the sources that come up in your Google search. They repeatedly say things like "The Esquerra chief, Colonel Macià, had originally demanded a Catalan Republic" (not an existing republic), "left-wing nationalist leader Francesc Macià31 proclaimed an independent Catalan republic" (proclaiming something is not the same as it existing), "Macià, was only persuaded to withdraw his proclamation of a 'Catalan Republic within a Spanish Federal Republic' by the.." (so the proclamation was withdrawn... did the republic exist?). In fact your search supports a renaming to "the proclamation of the Catalan Republic" which is the terms used in many of the sources. FOARP (talk) 14:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose rename per Scolaire's argument. Questioning our sources over whether something existed or not, typically leads to OR. Dimadick (talk) 18:38, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If the sources don't say that it existed, concluding that is existed is not defensible. FOARP (talk) 14:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Firstly, the proposal starts from a wrong assumption by considering that this was the result of a "declaration of independence". Actually, what was declared was a "Catalan Republic within the Iberian Federation", i.e. a non-independent state. Arguing that the name should be changed because no independent state existed is misleading with respect to the scope of the article itself. In fact, the article itself does not establish that this was an independent state, and much to the contrary, makes reference to the content of the actual declaration. Impru20^talk 14:23, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am not saying that the state had to be independent. I am saying that there is no reference showing that the state, independent or not, ever existed asides from the proclamation. Additionally, this is not a rename discussion listed using the WP:RM template. FOARP (talk) 14:34, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You stated as a spin-off from the 2017 discussion that decided that, since there was no unequivocal evidence that the republic ever existed, only that a declaration of independence had been made, it should instead be merged with the article related to the declaration of independence (...) What I see here is that the same thing appears to have occurred - none of the references cited here unequivocally states that a country existed in the two days between 6-7 October 1931 (...) What we appear to have is a conclusion reached by editors based on original research - that a Catalan Republic existed from 14-17 April, 1931.

This was not a declaration of independence, but the proclamation of a federated state within Spain. A provisional government was even formed which was later given continuity in the form of the Generalitat of Catalonia, but this was never intended as an independent entity. Trying to point this as if this was an actual independent republic is misleading and flawed in concept, because the article does not reflect that anywhere. Impru20^talk 14:40, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I did not say that this was an independent state - just that it asserts that a state existed without a reference stating that it did, and that this is similar to the 2017 independence issue. It does not matter whether it was independent or not, what matters is whether it existed at all in the form described on this page (i.e., as a republic between 14-17 October 1931). None of the references cited here state that it did. For example - how do we know that it ceased to exist on 17 October 1931? No reference actually says this. FOARP (talk) 14:49, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

17 October 1931? Seriously, while you may have some points in some of the points made (such as the anthem or flag), I think you are confusing all three 1931, 1934 and 2017 periods in such a way that it is absolutely pointless to continue with this discussion, because I'm not sure whether you are actually treating each article within its scope or merely copy-pasting the same text in all three of them as if they were equal and interchangeable. In both 1931 and 1934 there were active governments behaving its own way after their respective declarations, whereas the 2017 declaration was merely symbolic and did not have any practical effect beyond the declaration itself. Impru20^talk 15:02, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]