Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous): Difference between revisions

Neatsville, Kentucky in April was the 2nd most viewed Kentucky-related article and has been similarly highly viewed for several months. I cannot make sense of this. This is a small unincorporated community in the middle of rural Kentucky. I cannot find any TV show or movie referencing it. It also doesn't make sense that anyone would be gaming this outcome for months (although I suppose this isn't impossible). Am I missing something? Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 21:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating. Two-year pageviews are even higher on average, peaking in mid-2023. I see no news coverage or anything else that would drive this traffic. BD2412 T 21:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The start of this climb in pageviews seems to have been on 24/25 August 2021 ([1]), when daily pageviews climbed from 2 to 410 to 1,717. Perhaps this may narrow the search for what is causing this. Curbon7 (talk) 22:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Billy Joe in the same Kentucky county announced he saw a UFO on 8/24. LOL. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 23:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, nearly all of the traffic coming to the article is from unidentified external routes (which is highly unusual), and there is virtually no traffic from this article to other articles (also highly unusual). BD2412 T 22:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe there's a viral post or tweet somewhere with an easter egg? Schazjmd (talk) 22:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly. Although I've not heard it, I can easily imagine a meme in which "Neatsville" (a redirect to the article) becomes a trendy term of approval. (Compare Coolsville.) Alternatively, someone may be trying to get it into a most-viewed listing. It would be interesting to know how many different IPs have accessed the article (perhaps counting each IPv6 /64 as one), rather than just the number of hits. Certes (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects seem to be negligible in their impact. Unchecking "Include redirects" makes virtually no difference. Regarding someone gaming this, that's an awful lot of such to sustain. Of course, this could be a script disguising itself as a real person. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the pointer on redirects: I hadn't spotted that. Yes, I assumed it was scripted. It does seem erratic and slightly seasonal, with peaks in spring 2023 and 2024, but does not vary much by day of week. Certes (talk) 22:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That crossed my mind, but I think the incoming traffic would be more varied and identifiable for something like that, rather than a dark web monolith (speculation before further details). Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 23:23, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This sounds like a repeat of Mount Takahe, which also has inexplicably high reader numbers. And like Takahe, Neatsville has fairly average reader numbers when only counting the Mobile App and only slightly elevated reader numbers with by spiders. FWIW, neither News nor Twitter/X show many if any mentions. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting really ridiculous. It's skewing statistics, even to the point where new editors are noticing. I don't want make this into some huge problem, but I think "nipping it in the bud" is well called for now. Please admins block the access of this apparent script kiddie. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 21:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have logged a case in WP:ANI. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Admins do not have the ability to block people from viewing articles, this would have to be handled by the system administrators. You would probably be best filing a ticket on Phabricator, though I'm not sure they'd take action. 86.23.109.101 (talk) 22:53, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what action can or should be taken. This doesn't seem to be a denial-of-service attack (or, if it is, it's an incredibly lame one). Wikipedia's terms of service don't prevent anyone from viewing pages, even multiple times; in fact it's encouraged. I don't know whether the hosting system can, or should, rate-limit a particular IP address or range, even assuming that most of the unusual traffic comes from one IP or a small range. Certes (talk) 23:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I wouldn't be reporting this as a performance or security issue, but rather a data corruption issue. And I sense this might not be taken very seriously, but I have a thing against the presentation of false data and that in that presentation, the person doing it is getting away with it, possibly encouraging more of this kind of corruption by others. I think it is in our long-run interests to stop it or put some kind of brakes on it. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 23:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this is due to a malicious botnet, shouldn't you have WMF report this to law enforcement? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:20, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if it's malicious. It's just skewing our cumulative views data on a single article. I might rather have an ISP notified if that could be pinned down. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 02:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The internet can be a bit of a wild west sometimes. I don't think calling the police to report a DDOS attack would result in anything. DDOS attacks are usually carried out by hacked zombie computers, and are often transnational. So it's a bit hard to police. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:43, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An inexplicable steady increase in readership to an article happened one time before, and the explanation was that it had been included as an example/default link somewhere. Will see if I can find the details. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a possibility if it's not a link from English Wikipedia but another project or website. I had already reviewed EN pages linking to the article and didn't see anything. Thanks for checking. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 23:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's tempting to put a banner on the top of the article: "Please tell us what brought you to this article" with a link to the talk page, see if any of the 17,000+ readers answer. Schazjmd (talk) 23:49, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many years ago I found – guess how – that the address anton@pobox.com was used as an example in what appeared to be a guide to email for new users (in Russian, but hosted in Israel). —Tamfang (talk) 22:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Found this through some searching, not really sure where it came from: urlscan1: Kepler's Supernova article, urlscan2: Neatsville, Kentucky article. The scan was for a different url, which redirected to those Wikipedia pages with some (ad tracking?) parameters. – 2804:F1...99:B28F (talk) 05:48, *edited:06:42, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mind you, the interesting thing would have been to know where that original link was from (possibly emails? unsure) - both were scanned on the 17th of last month and both articles have an increase in views, but without knowing where that's from and if it always redirects there, it doesn't really mean it's even related with the view count unfortunately. – 2804:F1...99:B28F (talk) 06:42, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for bringing this here. Is it fair to say that Kepler's Supernova is also getting the same kind of fake views? Or could its extra recent views have a legitimate reason behind it? Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 07:03, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not that I could find, both noticeably grew in views since April: Kepler's Supernova, Neatsville, Kentucky

According to wikitech:Analytics/AQS/Pageviews#Most viewed articles the most viewed list (same data as the graphs) tries to only count page request from "human users", so it's not clear if the views are fake, though a reason is also not obvious. Do you know why the Neatsville article had similar numbers in from March to June of last year? – 2804:F1...99:B28F (talk) 08:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea, and I'm in Kentucky. This place really is "in the sticks". Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:34, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Talk page for Kepler's Supernova says Publishers Clearing House for some reason included a link to [the page] in email (promoting daily contests) for awhile. Page view patterns are the same as with Neatsville. Not sure if this IP is relevant either 107.128.181.22 (talk) 08:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Publishers Clearing House for some reason included a link to [the page] in email (promoting daily contests) for awhile. This seems like the most plausible explanation so far. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have reported this as a security issue (re: data integrity) to Phabricator. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It might be very helpful to know how many different IP addresses access the page a lot (say >100 times a day) and whether they're in a single range. Obviously this requires access to non-public information, but it should be safe to pass on a digest with the actual IPs removed. Certes (talk) 11:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@StefenTower could you add me to the phab ticket please? RoySmith (talk) 20:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As it is still set as a security issue, I don't believe I am allowed to do that, and I don't know how to anyway. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 02:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course you're allowed to. You created the ticket, right? RoySmith (talk) 02:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Physically allowed to, apparently, but rules-wise, I don't know. I'd rather not do it if I'm breaching a protocol. Anyway, I have made a statement in the phab ticket if those administrating don't consider it a security matter and want to take that classification off, that would be fine by me. Then, anyone can subscribe. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 03:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can go to "Edit Task", type some more subscribers in the subscribers box, then click "Save Changes". –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:13, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for pointing that out. I've never been asked to add anyone to a ticket before, so it didn't appear obvious to me how to do so. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 03:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, now that you know how, would you please add me? RoySmith (talk) 15:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Neatsville, Kentucky in May was the top most viewed Kentucky-related article. This effectively trashes the point of having a Popular pages list. There are bigger things to be outraged about in this world, but as far as Wikipedia goes, this really honks me off. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The number of views 26k is so low it could easily be explained by a default link somewhere. The Publishers Clearing House explanation given above sounds reasonable, or something like it. These kinds of things are not uncommon. If the popular pages list is important, you could modify the list with another bot. -- GreenC 17:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a very recent phenomenon. The views have been skewed off and on since over a year ago (see "Two year pageviews..." link above). Also, the explanation as such doesn't absolve this as not being a problem. There is no excuse for PCH or any entity for sending non-purposeful (junk) links to people. Whether or not it affects our system performance, it is abusive. As far as modifying Popular pages results, if there was a straightforward way to asterisk, strikethrough, hide or shade an entry based on particular criteria, that would suffice, but writing a new bot seems overwrought. I could temporarily strikethrough, hide or shade the top or nth entry via CSS but then that would require monthly maintenance. I think I'll just write a nasty letter to PCH - that may be our real solution (half-joke, half-serious). Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 20:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Meh, somebody put a link in an email or newsletter or something. That doesn't strike me as abusive; if people are clicking the links and reading our article that's really no different than anyone who sees one of our articles through a link in a tweet or Discord, that page was popular. It doesn't seem like there's anything to be done. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 21:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We'll just have to disagree on this. They had no business skewing views to these articles. What on earth is the purpose? These are not legitimate views. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wait one min-u-ette here. If these are all genuine human visits off an e-mail or promotion, how come I'm the only one to edit the article (once) since September? With the huge amount of visits, that seems to defy reason. For a small rural town, it has a kind of interesting story, having been relocated twice – so it's weird that edits wouldn't have happened. These are highly likely bot hits disguised as human hits. That's not a problem?? Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 22:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible for Wikipedia articles to be embedded into a webpage, and if so, is it possible these collect pageview data without people clicking through? Curbon7 (talk) 23:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes (<iframe>) and yes. Probably uncommon though. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. it's not a problem. Who cares why any of our articles are read and who by? Phil Bridger (talk) 06:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your opinion, but it's not as simple as that. This is systems data used beyond the superficial aspect that you imagine. Note that if views data wasn't important, it wouldn't be collected and stored in the first place. It can be used for various purposes, like for instance, project prioritization. Corruption of data is a real problem. I am not suggesting this specific issue reported here is a huge problem but one that should be addressed lest it really get out of hand. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Phil. Usually website backlinks are a good thing, for search engine optimization and brand awareness reasons. If it causes one aberrant data point in one report, that's fairly minor. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Through my background in database development and 20 years as a Wikipedian, I insist it's a real (though not currently huge) problem by what I've already stated. Also, there seems to be an insistent assumption these are true views. Based on information that's been made available, the strong suggestion is that these are effectively bot hits. Also, I highly doubt we are getting SEO benefits from distributed junk hits, and who doesn't already know our brand? The bottom line is this has a potential to really bollocks up various processes that use this data if it isn't nipped in the bud. "Fairly minor" is today. But tomorrow? Yeah, let 'em increasingly tarnish our data. Cool, man, cool. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 07:32, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We really need to ask someone with access to private logs whether these views come predominantly from one IP (or a small range) or are widespread. If the latter then they may also be able to tell us (perhaps from the referrer) whether they are predominantly from one webpage, perhaps via an iframe embedded in HTML bulk e-mail. Certes (talk) 09:53, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. That's a part of why I logged the issue in Phabricator, so that an investigation can be conducted. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I realize that when I said "distributed", I was buying into an assumption but yes, it's possible this comes from one IP or a small range. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even that's not absolute proof. A significant portion of our page views from mainland China come to use through just two (2) IP addresses (used by a VPN service). If you find that most of the traffic comes from a single IP, that does not mean that a single person is reloading the same page every few seconds round the clock. It could mean that a lot of people are using a VPN or other shared service.

You might also be interested in https://theconversation.com/2022-wasnt-the-year-of-cleopatra-so-why-was-she-the-most-viewed-page-on-wikipedia-197350 and similar reports. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:41, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess my view doesn't count because I have only been editing Wikipedia for 17 years and my background is in systems programming, but I'll state it anyway. It is that the only problem here is with people who place too much faith in reports. Measure what you actually want to measure, not what's easiest to measure, and don't try to change what you're measuring to make it easier. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:47, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some reports do weed out automated views, sometimes by limiting their scope to articles which have between 5% and 95% of their views from mobiles. (Example: Signpost.) This technique is helpful but not foolproof, especially if someone who reads the report is trying to appear on it in some sort of SEO game. Certes (talk) 21:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As someone with a similar background, these are the kinds of arguments you find in IT departments, I suppose. The report isn't the problem but rather the report is indicative of a data problem, and it's the data problem that should be solved, because that problem could increase and cause other issues. And yes, we should change what we're measuring, rather, prevent bad data input (the case here), because you don't want "garbage in". Spending time to assure clean data going into further processing in other systems was a significant part of my IT work. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:01, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am inclined to concur that we aren't looking at genuine readers here - few people seem to go from Neatsville to other articles. Compare Donald Trump, where almost all readers then go on to read other articles. That might be an iframe deal or a bot, but not people directly reading the article. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:45, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course we aren't. But what does any of this have to do with Wikipedia? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:47, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are lots of people who are interested in how widely shared information on a given Wikipedia page is. That tells us something about which topics are important, which ones need to be taken care of etc. Distributing information is the purpose of a Wikipedia page after all. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This may be related (or unrelated), but my talk page received an unusual number of page views each day from late March to early April: see here. Besides a couple of messages from the bots, there weren't any other activity on my talk during that time [2]. I doubt those page views (at least on my talk page) are genuine. Some1 (talk) 03:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rename the article?[edit]

This constant pinging of our article could easily be disrupted by renaming the article without leaving a redirect, if only for a day or two. Of course that might still count as vandalism, and make Skynet very angry. NebY (talk) 19:02, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Done. I have temporarily boldly moved the page to Neatsville, Adair County, Kentucky. I will move it back in a week (at 16:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)), and we will see what comes of that. BD2412 T 16:08, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: I have also temporarily changed all incoming links from reader-facing spaces. In case anyone is concerned that the above move will impede legitimate searches for this title, it is now the first search result that comes up when searching for Neatsville, Kentucky. Cheers! BD2412 T 16:25, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Neat! And nicely done. I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out; already I've been surprised to find that the iOS app is still giving me the article at Neatsville, Kentucky (but a blank talk page and an "unexpected response from the server" for its history) as well as at Neatsville, Adair County, Kentucky. Maybe I'm the last to learn the iOS app uses a different database, which lags. NebY (talk) 20:38, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both for the concept and implementation. I imagine at the very least the results will add to our body of knowledge. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:22, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems a bit odd to let off-site pressures dictate the titles of our articles. Also if the Publisher's Clearing House explanation is accurate, we have now broken this link for regular users. Also may be a violation of WP:PMRC. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:14, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is effectively an experiment to determine whether moving the article — for one week — resolves the issue that has been reported. It may well be that these views are the result of an internal glitch rather than on off-site one, and this resolves that all the same. It may be that when the article is moved back, the issue will resume. The only way to find out is to perform the experiment and gather the data for analysis. As noted, the correct article is still the number one article that comes up when using the search function, and given the page views prior to this situation arising, actual inconvenience to regular users should be nominal. BD2412 T 02:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would oppose a permanent rename for a flimsy reason like that, but all along, this was set up as a one-week test, and I don't see a big problem there. Anyway, I saw that Neatsville, Kentucky was redirected after this test was started, so I wonder if that defeats the point of the test. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 02:58, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it will defeat the point, since pageviews of redirects are tracked separately from pageviews of their targets. But then I could be misunderstanding. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:04, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that's true, but now these miscreant/fake hits will be hitting a live mainspace page that happens to be the same page they were targeting before. So, they won't be getting any indication they are hitting a nonexistent page like they would have when the test was first set up. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 03:10, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) The point of moving without the redirect was to see whether the absence of anything at this target would "break" whatever is causing the excessive page views. Perhaps the few hours during which there was no redirect was enough to do that. The test does not have to run for a week, that was an arbitrary time set figuring that whatever process was involved might itself be on a week-long clock. Maybe a few days would do. BD2412 T 03:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New data: This is remarkable. Two days after moving the article, Neatsville, Kentucky continues to average close to 20,000 pageviews per day, but Neatsville, Adair County, Kentucky is averaging 50 pageviews per day. Anyone actually navigating to the Neatsville, Kentucky link would be redirected to Neatsville, Adair County, Kentucky, which should therefore also have those tens of thousands of views. This definitively means that visits to Neatsville, Kentucky are not organic views from regular readers, but are queries of the URL itself that therefore do not get redirected. BD2412 T 17:15, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's maybe not so clear; I find that if I click "include redirects" then Neatsville, Adair County, Kentucky is receiving 20,000+ pageviews a day[3]. On the other hand, toying with the Agents setting gives me another puzzle. Over the last 90 days, the ratio of "User"[4] to "Automated"[5] views of Neatsville, Kentucky varied from 1:1 to 8:1 and more, but both peaked on 01 June 2024. Even assuming some views misidentify themselves, I can't even start to explain both the variation and the coincidence. NebY (talk) 18:26, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding (and this may be incorrect) is that including redirects merely adds the number of views to the page and the number of views to the redirect. I do not believe it is possible to have a view of the redirect that results in the viewer being redirected to the page, but does not also lead to a view to the page itself, such that pageviews alone should always be higher than redirect views alone (compare pageviews of "FBI" versus "Federal Bureau of Investigation"). BD2412 T 19:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, that it's simple addition does make sense. Still, the FAQ does say If a user browses to a redirect, a pageview is registered for the redirect but not for the target page. That suggests to me that it's technically feasible that ~20,000 human readers went to Neatsville, Kentucky, were redirected, and did read Neatsville, Adair County, Kentucky - but I've little experience of this tool, could be very wrong. NebY (talk) 19:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have yet to find a working redirect that has more pageviews than the page to which it redirects. BD2412 T 04:12, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the question can be definitively answered by looking at Meghan Markle versus Meghan, Duchess of Sussex. The page was moved back and forth between titles a few times while her "official" name was being disputed, and the higher pageview count always jumped to the article title at the moment. BD2412 T 18:03, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to note that I haven't lost interest in this. I just don't know what to add. I'm just going to hope that system admins take this up at some point, using various findings here. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 10:23, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I agree with earlier comments that any improvements should be made in data analysis, and not by rejecting page requests. If the triggers to detect denial-of-service issues haven't been set off, by net neutrality principles, the Wikipedia servers shouldn't be filtering page requests. isaacl (talk) 14:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean let's have a better way of detecting what are not genuine views by people, then of course that is a useful band-aid for views reports. But the rampant fake access for no discernible reason remains, and who knows where that is going if the systems admins don't know where it's coming from and gets worse and becomes a DOS. Net neutrality isn't a web server matter but an ISP one. Websites can choose to block whoever they want. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not speaking from a legal perspective, but a conceptual one. The Wikimedia Foundation's mission is "to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally." ([6]) It shouldn't decide what requests to process and which to not until necessary to protect its infrastructure. Triggers can include monitoring incoming flows and dynamically setting conditions. But until the triggers are met, it shouldn't play favourites in deciding what clients get access. isaacl (talk) 15:45, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The infrastructure in terms of data integrity *is* being harmed. Performance isn't a concern, yet, and I haven't pretended that this is the case as of now, but it could become one if something isn't done. Bad data should trigger a response. Also, we're not talking about picking and choosing which access to accept willy-nilly - anything done about this would target a specific access producing said bad data. It's all right to stop access done for nefarious purposes (given it is technically feasible to do so), and I see no way this violates any concept of neutrality. This is not "playing favourites". All traffic is considered legitimate unless it demonstrates that it is not. And these views run-ups are almost certainly illegitimate (of course, to be fully determined in the Phab task). Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article has now been moved back. Moving the page does not appear to have had any effect on incoming views, but appears to have confirmed that these views were just calling the URL, and not actually looking at it (i.e., not following to the redirect target while it was a redirect). My going theory is that this is itself a test by some outside entity that intends to manipulate page views for some other page in the future, probably for commercial or political ends, and is confirming its ability to do so. BD2412 T 20:16, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why people are making such a big fuss over this. The main concern here seems to be that it messes up our internal page view stats. I agree that can be annoying, but it's also inevitable that things like this will happen. It's a truism in the Big Data world that there will be garbage in your data. You need to accept that and be able to deal with it on the analysis side. You're never going to track down and correct all the sources of garbage, so don't bother trying. RoySmith (talk) 14:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's funny how folks keep coming here to tell us that it's all right for this site to be pummeled with fake visits (on edit: in the process, harming data integrity - my point all along) and just be cool with that. This isn't a few odd hits we're talking about. Sure, we can apply a band-aid to analyze views differently but we can also have the miscreants blocked and/or shut down (as long as that is technically feasible - something yet to be determined). Nobody is talking about chasing down any or all crap views. This is clearly a special case. And if it's not taken seriously, whoever is doing so will be emboldened to go further. If we do nothing, we are inviting worse. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 01:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"all right for this site to be pummeled with fake visits and just be cool with that"

Oh noes, some weirdo spends the day pressing F5 on his browser to increase the views on one article. Or that Publishers Clearing House links to that page in promotion or something.

What changes on our end? Absolutely nothing, except an article has more views than if they didn't do that. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@StefenTower., please Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance. There are people paid to worry about this. If they're not worried, we don't need to be worried. They are not worried about someone racking up 20K page views per day. That represents something around 1/50,000th the normal daily traffic. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I *am* leaving it up to the people who run this site to make decisions about this. That's why I created the Phab ticket. I'm not the one finding a resolution. My trust is placed in them. If they decide to let it go, that's their decision. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 05:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And again, it's the data integrity more than the performance. I thought I had made that clear before. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it was simply "more views", it wouldn't bother me in the least. If one reads above what the issue is about in total, they would see that data that is likely used in decision support, such as in WikiProjects, is being skewed to such a degree as to screw up top rankings. It may not seem so alarming now, but if nothing is done about it, what stops it from ballooning into something that even affects performance? But for me, the harm to data integrity is enough to warrant some kind of action. At the very least, we need a band-aid to look at these kinds of views and recategorize them. I don't think that is close to a complete solution, but I will take that for now. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 05:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TL;DR: A data integrity problem (but not currently a performance problem) is being caused by some entity running up hundreds of thousands of fake views per month of select articles, particularly Neatsville, Kentucky, leading to corrupted presentations in reports based on this views data. Apparent solutions include more smartly identifying such views and recategorizing them (as they highly likely aren't views from real people) and figuring out what exactly is the origin or origins of this access and taking steps such as blocking to handle them. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't it seem very likely that this traffic is being caused by a client-server botnet that is waiting for instructions?

It's normal for bot-nets to connect to a webserver to get instructions. But that's tricky for the bot-operators, because it has to be a website they have no legitimate connection to, and if the server is shut down, then all their bots are effectively worthless. Instead, If you point your bot-net to an obscure Wikipedia page it not only saves you the trouble of hacking into an unsecured web server, but it also means that sys-admins are unlikely to spot the uptick in traffic.

If this theory is correct, one day the "owner" of the bot net would insert some command into the page and all the infected devices would do some horrible thing. Perhaps the article should be be edit protected before that day comes. ApLundell (talk) 01:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody's said this yet, at least not that I can see, but I seem to remember a mystery along these lines happening some time ago, in which a photograph of a flower was getting some unbelievable number of hits -- it turned out to be that some app was using its URL as a way to diagnose connection issues. So it was not 100% benign -- it was someone being a cheap-ass about bandwidth and they really should have used something hosted on their own servers -- but it was not really malicious, just kind of lazy. jp×g🗯️ 00:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We've got people whose job it is to worry about this kind of stuff. Not only do they have a better handle on how big a problem this is than we do, but they have access to server logs that we don't, giving them a ton more information than we have about where this is coming from. And if they decide something needs to be done about it, they have access to the tools to do it. Why don't we just let them do their jobs? And then we can all get back to important stuff like figuring out which shade of green to paint the bikeshed. RoySmith (talk) 00:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nature magazine has been running a series of Science Fiction short stories called "Futures". The latest one -- "Plastic-eating fungus caused doomsday:[2][3] A collaborative effort" -- is told as a series of entries to a Wikipedia talk page. Never thought of Wikipedia as a genre. AFAIK, this is the first Wikipedia fiction -- not counting hoax articles, of course.

I don't know how long this link will be good, so I downloaded a pdf copy of this story in case it goes away. -- llywrch (talk) 02:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good find, thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:59, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Llywrch see lena by qntm Mach61 23:20, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have to do this: ^[1]

Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:11, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK, this is the first Wikipedia fiction Nope! Pre-dated by works like Neurocracy (2021), Missing Links and Secret Histories (2013), and I'm sure there's many more examples. – Teratix ₵ 10:02, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Llywrch, and Teratix: I have redirected Wikipedia in fiction to Wikipedia in culture. If the use of the above mentioned works is discussed in sources, it would be worth adding mention of them to that article. BD2412 T 19:49, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised that I missed Missing Links and Secret Histories, since I've read every issue of the Signpost since its creation years ago. But my oldest daughter was 6 at the time & having children that young limits every activity outside of work, eating & sleeping -- & sometimes the last two are also affected. -- llywrch (talk) 06:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another example of fiction in the form of a Wikipedia article is "Basilisk collection" by Blackle Mori. Jruderman (talk) 11:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While reading an unofficial wiki about a webcomic franchise, I noticed that the wiki has an article of a Wikipedia-like (parodied?) character. His typing style and one of his bullet point in his promotional image seem to be somewhat obvious to me. --린눈라단 (talk) 04:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone else please take a glance at Bill Cook and Ron Herzman? It seems really odd to have one article about these two different people. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 22:51, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• How about Glen and Les Charles or The Carpenters (Karen Carpenter and Richard Carpenter)? Same principles of WP:NBIO still apply, but I'm still looking for specific rules about two persons in the same article.

Of course, same rules don't apply to fictional characters, like Luke and Laura, but there's WP:AT at least. Also, Luke Spencer and Laura Spencer (General Hospital) have their own articles. George Ho (talk) 00:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• It quite often happens that people dont have much notability outside the duo, i.e., if you write separate articles, there will be a heavy overlap beyond "born and raised" and "died and rests" So it makes perfect sense to have a single page. - Altenmann >talk 00:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, we have category:Duos, and, comparable is a subcategory Category:Business duos. Why would not that be academic duos as well? Heck, we have John and Paul after all :-). - Altenmann >talk 00:18, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two academics who co-author are not the same as a singing duo. The article should be split so they each have a separate page. PamD 05:21, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If they are permanent coauthors then they are the same as Category:Business duos. - Altenmann >talk 05:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, because they have separate lives, and teaching careers, and in one case political aspirations. Not all their publications are joint: see https://bill-cook.com/resume/ and https://www.geneseo.edu/english/ronald-herzman. PamD 07:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

they have separate lives, and teaching careers, and in one case political aspirations. Those elements aren't indicators of notability, honestly. Per WP:N, WP:NBIO, WP:NACADEMICS, and WP:BLP if still living, everything about each of them comes down to what they are notable only for and how notable their own careers are outside the collaboration. Furthermore, the sources you provided are primary, so what about secondary and tertiary ones? George Ho (talk) 08:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Look at the books they have written:

• The Medieval World FView, jointly, which has run into 3 editions
• La Vision Medieval Del Mundo, tr. Milagros Rivera Garreta. Barcelona: Editorial Vincens‑Vives, 1985 (with William R. Cook). (From Herzman's CV, not mentioned by Cook)
• 7 more books by Cook listed at https://bill-cook.com/resume/
• 2 more books by Herzman listed at https://www.geneseo.edu/english/ronald-herzman

Not exactly "permanent coauthors". PamD 20:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

… Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller … —Tamfang (talk) 21:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some examples I have encountered are: Charles and Ray Eames, Mary Dann and Carrie Dann, Peter and Rosemary Grant. Johnuniq (talk) 09:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, every page in Category:Married couples. jp×g🗯️ 00:24, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sacco and Vanzetti. XOR'easter (talk) 20:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here’s what to expect, and how to prepare.

Hello everyone, the new Community Wishlist (formerly Community Wishlist Survey) opens on 15 July for piloting. I will jump straight into an FAQ to help with some questions you may have:

Q: How long do I have to submit wishes?

A: As part of the changes, Wishlist will remain open. There is no deadline for wish submission.

Q: What is this ‘Focus Area’ thing?

A: The Foundation will identify patterns with wishes that share a collective problem and group them into areas known as ‘Focus Areas’. The grouping of wishes will begin in August 2024.

Q: At what point do we vote? Are we even still voting?

A: Contributors are encouraged to discuss and vote on Focus Areas to highlight the areas.

Q: How will this new system move wishes forward for addressing?

A: The Foundation, affiliates, and volunteer developers can adopt Focus Areas. The Wikimedia Foundation is committed to integrating Focus Areas into our Annual Planning for 2025-26.

Focus Areas align to hypotheses (specific projects, typically taking up to one quarter) and/or Key Results (broader projects taking up to one year).

Q: How do I submit a wish? Has anything changed about submissions?

A: Yes there are some changes. Please have a look at the guide.

I hope the FAQ helped. You can read more about the launch.

You are encouraged to start drafting your wishes at your pace. Please consult the guide as you do so. Also if you have an earlier unfulfilled wish that you want to re-submit, we are happy to assist you draft.

You can start your draft (see an example) and don't hesitate to ask for support when drafting by sending me a link to your draft/sandbox via Meta email to help/review it. Alternatively you can leave the link in the Drafts List.

–– STei (WMF) (talk) 11:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding that registration for Wikimania 2024 is open for those attending. There will be a session on the Community Wishlist, we look forward to seeing you. –– STei (WMF) (talk) 12:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the UK football contract ends in 30 June. I am trying to remove any club information of the player who is out of contract. But I was informed that out-of-contract player doesn't mean he leaves the club (similar to a man is alive if there is no proof that he is dead), and he is still within the club. I would like to know if it is true? Are there any example? Thanks a lot. Winston (talk) 19:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know nothing about that topic but superficially it would seem that mass removal of players from clubs at 30 June each year would be disruptive. Articles should not need that kind of accuracy. If necessary, add a sentence to the effect that contracts expire at a certain time and there is a period of uncertainty. Johnuniq (talk) 02:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But do I need to provide a reliable source to update the free agent status (removing the club) (e.g. Cody Drameh)? But my edit got reverted because the admin think my edit is unsourced. I personally think that free agent after contract expiration is automatic (just like age, it could automatically count). And reverting my edit (i.e. saying the player is still in the club) need a source to say that there is a new contract between two parties. Winston (talk) 02:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like original research to me. Do not describe any player as a free agent without a reliable source saying they are. I guess you can say that a player's contract expired on such-and-such a date, if you cite a reliable source for that. Whether or not a player's contract is renewed is also subject to being supported by a reliable source. Slow down, this is an encyclopedia, and we do not get ahead of the published news. Donald Albury 13:47, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Donald Albury I think I understand your point of view. May I explain why I couldn't agree with you

According to free agent in wiki: In professional association football, a free agent is either a player that has been released by a professional association football club and now is no longer affiliated with any league, or a player whose contract with their current club has expired and is thus free to join any other club under the terms of the Bosman ruling. As two sentences is linked with or, so the player is a free agent if any one of the two condition is met. And thus the player is a free agent when there is no evidence of a contract.

Therefore

1. The player is automatically a free agent when the current contract expire

2. The player with the club doesn't infer that the player is associated with the club in any employer-employee means. The player can sign with other clubs even he is with one club. To me the player is a free agent rather than belong to a club.

3. To keep the player in the club officially (not just training in the training ground), a contract is needed. And thus I think without a reliable source (evidence of the a new contract), it would sounds like original research to me that the player is associate with a football club professionally. Winston (talk) 01:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman Please feel free to add your comment here Winston (talk) 08:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, given your dispute was with me, I am appalled that it has taken you 3 days to notify me about this discussion.

Secondly, in the absence of a reliable source, we do not edit, especially about living people. In the Cody Drameh example, he was not on the club's official list of released players. There was no source presented by you saying he left the club (until I found one). GiantSnowman 17:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman First of all I don't think this is a dispute with you. I think this is more than how player under a club is defined. Because if the definition is not clarified there will be more edit fight and I think it would be beneficial for more wikipedian to discussed together:

1. Is player out of contract equals to free agent? I found the part that is related to free agent in wiki states that a player whose contract with their current club has expired and is thus free to join any other club under the terms of the Bosman ruling is defined as free agent. So latter statement states a player, even there is evidence of training with the club, without the evidence of contract with the club is considered free agent.

2. What is the Current team under Infobox football biography template means? The document said The club for which the player currently plays, or is employed by. If the player now works in a non-playing role at the club, add this after the club in brackets. For retired players and free agents not currently employed by any club or federation, leave blank. So if a player is a free agent, the Current team section should be blank. And it seems to me that player without evidence of employment should leave black. In my own personal view, it should leave blank until there are evidence that the player is not a free agent.

3. When you say in the absence of a reliable source, we do not edit. I would say we should edit based on the known reliable source. What is the known reliable source is the expired contract. Based on (1) the player is a free agent and (2) leave the Current team blank.

4. When you say no source presented by you saying he left the club. By referring (2) if current team means the club for which the player currently plays, or is employed by, then I think no evidence of left the club could not satisfy the definition of current club because no evidence of leaving the club would not imply the player currently play (or eligible to play) or employed.

Please feel free to comment Winston (talk) 01:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, all content in Wikipedia must be verifiable from reliable sources. Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, so nothing that is stated in Free agent is sufficient by itself to support a claim elsewhere in Wikipedia. Anything that is entered in a infobox must also be verifiable from reliable sources. Any attempt to say that a player is a free agent without a reliable source saying so is original research. A consequence of the verifiability policy is that we sometimes have to leave things unsaid because we have not yet found a reliable source that supports it. Donald Albury 12:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But I don't understand keeping the player within the club without a reliable source is not considered as original research? Is the player retaining in the club can be testified under verifiability policy?

I understand your view on the policy but I am not sure if I understand that how keeping the player within a club without a reliable source can take precedence? Could you elaborate more on that? Also could you add more comment on the free agent definition?

Also when we say a player is under a club, normally we would refer to the player signing a contract with the club. But it seems to me that you are ignoring the contract end date within the reliable source. Winston (talk) 02:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When you talk about the reliable source, Michael Cooper never say that he is 24 years old, also offical page his age is never mentioned. Thus there is no reliable source of the player is 24 year old. Assuming the age of 24 based on his date of birth is not reliable, is unsourced (the club info never mention Michael Cooper is 24 year old).

I think it is worth discussing why there is no source needed while inferring age but not player is officially unattached after contract expiry? Winston (talk) 10:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Winstonhyypia Michael Cooper's date of birth is reliably sourced (see the ref linked in the infobox). An algorithm calculates his current age (as anyone numerate could do, each day). That is reliable. PamD 15:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PamD Only the date of birth is reliably source but not the age (he never mention his age, the club info also didn't show his age). I would like to understand why calculating age based on DOB is allowed while a free agent after contract expiry require source. To me both are inferred from reliable source (age is from date of birth and free agent status is from the last known contract expiry). Winston (talk) 22:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone knowing the date of a person's birth (which in this case we know from a reliable source), can calculate that person's age on the current date. Such calculations do not need a source, per Wikipedia:No original research#Routine calculations. Please stop this. What you are doing appears to be wikilawyering. Donald Albury 00:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Donald Albury Then I don't understand why the player is considered out of contract when there is no reliable source of having a new contract is considered as original research? I really believe it is a consensus player is out of contract is a free agent also defined in free agent). Winston (talk) 03:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Donald Albury Could you elaborate more on how my analogy appears to be wikilawyering? When I edit based on evidence (expired contract) and then people ask for evidence (which the expired contract is the evidence of the end of the employer-employee relationship). The expired contract is already an evidence of the player had a employer-employee relationship. Could you help me understand how employer-employee relationship ended at contract expire is considered original research? How would that considered as assumption? How would keeping the player in the club is correct? Winston (talk) 04:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Donald Albury Also there is Fixed-Term Contract saying a fixed-term contract can also be used for the completion of a specific task and the contract will be terminated automatically upon completion of the task. And I think it is the player contract works in this way.

I stated everything based on the free agent, fixed-term contract. I think the argument would be more constructive it is based on wiki policy. When you asked for evidence of player not including in the squad, I already mentioned that the nature of the fixed term contract and definition of free agent would be suffice to say that the player need a contract to keep the employer-employee relationship. This is not assumption this is automatic (unless there is a reliable source saying the player sign a new contract). Winston (talk) 04:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Donald Albury I think the analogy of asking evidence of age based on reliable source of DOB is very similar to the asking evidence of player is free agent based on reliable source of last known contract. In my view both are automatic. Winston (talk) 04:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a sports lawyer, but I know that having a contract and registration are different, although thay may overlap enormously in the case of professional players, especially since Bosman. I don't know what effects Brexit has had on British clubs. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Phil Bridger In the english FA website there is FA NFAR Standard Tripartite Representation Agreement under representation agreements. Please feel free to check the SERVICES section. Winston (talk) 02:43, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Phil Bridger I checked the FA website and there is FA Handbook, under Rules of The Association that provide more information. Winston (talk) 04:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would strongly advise against any mass removal based on an assumption. I think in a high proportion of cases contracts are renewed, usually without much publicity, except for a few "stars". There is a tremendous amount of work involved in changing and then changing back - are you sure you are up to it? Johnbod (talk) 17:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And does it matter? The English professional leagues finish in May and start again in August, at which time there are usually plenty of sources saying who plays where. This is an encyclopedia, not a breaking news site, so includes some content that may be outdated for a couple of months. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree this is not a breaking news site but should the article reflect the condition based on the reliable source (which in my own perspective the most reliable source is the previous contract)? Winston (talk) 03:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It matter because I was warned by the admin saying that there is lack of evidence of player leaving the club. He would block me from editing. But I think the edit I made is based on the evidence of a contract (I quoted the free agent which said the player is automatically a free agent while contract expire. I also quoted fixed time contract which said the employer-employee relationship terminate automatically after contract expire). In my point of view evidence is needed to conclude that the player is having an employer-employee relationship instead. Winston (talk) 04:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've notified Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football in the hope that this discussion may benefit from the participation of informed editors and because it has the potential to affect many articles of interest to that project. I'm a little surprised this discussion was opened here and not there. NebY (talk) 16:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a prime example of Wikipedia not needing to be updated quite so quickly. It should be expected that team rosters will be in flux between seasons, and that our articles can not be updated until new contracts/rosters are announced. Blueboar (talk) 17:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It really depends on the nature of Wikipedia. Should the article keep updated to represent the moving status? Is other editor allowed to update the wiki article based on the updated information based on reliable source? Winston (talk) 18:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell from reading the above you do not have "updated information". You have old information concerning the end date in an old contract, not updated information about whether anything has replaced it or any termination clause has been acted upon, plus your deductions. You've focused on contracts rather than registration, but employment law regarding contracts is not simple - for example, a contract can exist even without a written statement of terms. Football's registration systems include professional and amateur players, so they won't depend on employment contracts or persistence of paid work between seasons. More generally, absence of information is not evidence of absence; much happens without being reported in the press. Happily, Wikipedia policy protects us from presenting as fact deductions based on diverse scraps of information such as those you mention above. If you have a reliable source saying that a footballer's affiliation has changed, you can change the article, but if all you have is information that their contract was due to end by now, it's a breach of WP:No original research to remove their sourced affiliation or insert a claim that they're now a free agent. NebY (talk) 20:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@NebY I think this is the result of lack of information in either side of the argument that both side agrees.

1. When you say I don't have the "updated information". I want to state the fact that everyone agree here that there is no reliable source of player signing a new contract with the club. So in both ways (free agent vs still in the club) is not known. That's why I bring up this discussion. By the definition of free agent the player out of contract is a free agent.

2. I couldn't agree that the term old contract because it is the last known reliable source. I would rather name it as the latest contract with reliable source (there is no newer reliable source saying there is a new contract with the player).

3. I didn't say I agree contract could be more complicated than that. But if you say "the player could sign a contract with the club" without evidence that wouldn't be convincing.

4. May I use England Football as an example, based on REGISTRATION OF PLAYERS section of Standardized Rules of FA Handbook 2023-24, there is section 6.1.2 states that a Player’s registration with a Club as a Contract Player shall continue until the earlier of the date upon which: (a) the contract between the Contract Player and the Club expires. This should be the linkage between registration and contract. Once the the registration end with the contract. This is written in the rulebook and it is not deduction.

5. I think it would be hard to prove that there is termination clause in the contract. I think if when you say the player could still in the club because there could be a termination clause without any reliable source. Would that be fact based? Winston (talk) 01:30, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I didn't know there are talk page for football. Winston (talk) 18:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think part of the problem in this discussion is that to my understanding Winstonhyypia is assuming that all the info they have is correct and not changing, and that any change is properly communicated. The issue is that a fair amount of players extend quietly or automatically via different triggers and clubs/media update about it late if at all (for e.g. David Williams played all of last season with Perth Glory but there was never an announcement of a contract extension, and there was something similar with Jake Brimmer a couple of seasons ago). It's usually dependent on the "star power" of the player as well as the club's level (in women's football it's really hard to track). --SuperJew (talk) 20:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SuperJew It would depends if we should update based on the last known reliable source (I would say contract). My approach is didn't assume any contract extension without reliable source, the admins are saying the the player is still in the club without any reliable source saying the player left the club. I think in both ways you can bring counter example to say it is wrong. Both way would be affected by lack of information. Sometime the club didn't announce the contract extension of the player. Sometime the club didn't announce the leave of the player.

But without any known reliable source, I think the best option is to say that the player is a free agent (based on the definition of free agent and also the definition of fixed term contract) and rather not saying the player is still attached to the club. Winston (talk) 01:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Winstonhyypia, do you actually have a source that says "His contract definitely expired yesterday, and we confirm that it was not extended or renewed"?

Or do you just have a source that says "It will expire on this date in the future (unless it is extended or amended, of course)", and now that 'this date' has arrived, you're guessing that the original terms of the contract were still in force?

Are you even looking at a source with a specific date (e.g., 30 June 2024), or are you just looking at one that says "the 2023–2024 season" and guessing that the contract will expire at exactly 23:59 on 30 June?

A mere assumption is not sufficient for any of this. What if you're wrong? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:48, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the Cody Drameh example which kickstarted all this, there was a source saying 'we have offered the player a new contact', and then nothing further. Winston then assumed that, as the contract offer had not been accepted, the player had automatically left the club. I found a source confirming leaving the club a few days later. GiantSnowman 07:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman I think the key argument is "What is the status of the player if the latest contract is expired and there is no reliable source regarding of signing a new contract? Should the player automatically be a free agent?"

I already quoted Standardized Rules of FA Handbook (please check the link in the conversation above) that a player will no longer be registered to the club when there is no contract. In the same handbook it also mentioned that non-contract player applies to National League or below. Also inside the article free agent, a player is a defined as a free agent when the current contract expire.

I am writing here because the player would be automatically de-registered from the club when contract expire. Thus if the last expired contract is the latest reliable source then based on the definition of free agent, fixed-term contract and the FA rule, the player is a free agent. And it requires the evidence of a non-expiring contract to say that the player is registered under a club. I think it would be a good discussion to explain under the definitions above, saying a out-of-contract player a free agent is considered as original research. Winston (talk) 10:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing Most of the free agent could be found in transfermarkt. I would double check with the information online and make my edit.

I would like to clarify that my discussion is based on the fact that there is no reliable source about player signing new contract. Most all of the free agents listed in transfermarkt have no source say "His contract definitely expired yesterday, and we confirm that it was not extended or renewed" or "His contract definitely expired yesterday, and we confirm that it was extended or renewed". In both ways there is no reliable source. So things could go wrong in both ways. Also making an edit or not is making an assumption. The same question could be asked "do you actually have a source that says "His contract definitely expired yesterday, and we confirm that it was extended or renewed? What if you're wrong?". With the lack of information saying the player is staying and the player is leaving is a guess. But if we based on reliable source, the latest reliable source would be the expired contract. So what I am asking is, given the latest reliable source is the expired contract , should we say the player is a free agent when the contract is over? Winston (talk) 10:18, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Short answer: no, too soon to say anything. Blueboar (talk) 10:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind elaborate more on your reasoning? I think other people would like to understand why it is too soon to say he leave the club but it is not too soon to say that he is a free agent, by definition? Winston (talk) 11:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you considered the possibility that he has signed a contract, but no sources have reported it yet? IF that is the case, then he isn’t a free agent.

The fact is we don’t actually know his current status with the team. What we DO know is he was with the team last season. That is good enough for now… it is OK to leave the article as being “out of date” for a few months… until we DO actually know the player’s status for the next season.

Then there is the issue of simple practicality. The uncertainty of contract renewal likely affects dozens (if not hundreds) of players every year. It makes no sense to “update” all these articles to “Free Agent”… only to have to re-update them yet again a few weeks/months later when all these players either re-sign with their old team, sign with a new team, or are not picked up by any team. Allowing the article to remain “outdated” until we have more information is simply more practical. Blueboar (talk) 12:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think there are possibility that he signed a contract or not. In both ways people can ask the same question. People can be asked to consider the possibility that he didn't sign a contract and is a free agent. Since both ways is possible I think the conclusion can't be made based on this approach. Also if Wikipedia article should base on reliable source then I think people would also ask your approach as no reliable source of a new contract is available. Thus I think it would be best to say the player is a free agent if there is no reliable source of a new contract (also satisfy the definition of free agent). I think it make more sense as this is the definition of free agent and fixed term contract. And I don't see what's wrong if the player is updated as a free agent, and then updated with the existing club a few days later (based on the reliable source of a new contract). If Wikipedia based on reliable source then I don't see why this approach doesn't align with Wikipedia rule. Winston (talk) 15:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it were just one player, fine… but I strongly suspect it is far more than just one. Having to update, and then immediately re-update, on potentially hundreds of articles… and do so every year… is just disruptive. ‘Nuff said. Blueboar (talk) 15:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Blueboar If the wikipedia policy (reliable source) didn't apply to the article (also if the policy is not the discussion and the article should be based on reliable source.

1. When there are some editor comes in to make an edit, saying a player with expired contract as a free agent and remove his latest club info. By my understand on contract law, FA rule this edit should be allowed. Any revert of the club info (saying the player is still register under the club) requires evidence of contract extension because player registration above League 2 requires contract.

2. I started this discussion is because I am going to write down the points to discuss that the player is a free agent after contract expiry by definition not by original research. Winston (talk) 19:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are missing my point. It may arguably be verifiable that players are free agents the second their contracts expire. But “Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion”. Sometimes it is better to wait for evolving situations to play out before we include it in our article. I think this is one of those situations. Be patient. Blueboar (talk) 19:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Until you have a specific, clearly reliable source in hand that WP:Directly supports the claim that the individual athlete has not signed a contract, then you cannot do this. Your understanding of contract law is not a reliable source. WP:You are not a reliable source.

Perhaps it will make more sense as a story:

• The previously announced contract expired on Monday.
• Unknown to you, also on Monday, the player signed a new contract.
• On Tuesday, you change the article to say the player is a free agent and not part of the team because the old contract expired on Monday (and you still don't know about the new contract).
• On Wednesday, the team announces that the player signed a contract and is still with the team.

Do you know what that means? It means that on Tuesday you were putting lies about a living person into the Wikipedia article.

Don't do that. Wait until we have real information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing I didn't say the expiry is based on my understanding. I already wrote in the above that

1. Based on definition of free agent, a player without a contract is a free agent by definition.

2. Based on the definition of fixed-term contract. The employer-employee relationship is will be terminated upon completion.

3. Based on FA Handbook (please check the link above), a player would no longer be registered from the club when contract expire.

In your example there are 2 things I would argue

1. "Unknown to you" - I think it should be unknown to public. Based on the reliable source definition then it is best to say the player is a free agent on Tuesday. Everyone should making wiki edit based on reliable source, right?

2. I couldn't agree that the editor is making a lie too if there is no public information regarding to the new contract. This is the conclusion based on reliable source. Winston (talk) 19:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Based on these definitions" is not the same as "based on a reliable source that WP:Directly supports the claim".

"Based on these definitions" is indirect support. If you want to make a positive statement ("As of Monday, he is a free agent"), then you must have a source that actually says this. You cannot have only a source that says "If nothing else changes, he will become a free agent on Monday two years in the future". That source does not directly support a claim that he really is a free agent. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In your example this is my understanding:

1. The player established employer-employee relationship for two years (it didn't have a support of player status after Monday). So the player is under the club until Monday (in normal terms). The source only Directly Support until Monday.

2. After Monday if there is no evidence of a new contract then by definition the player is a free agent. The source didn't have a Direct Support after Monday. Winston (talk) 20:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Outdent) Something that hasn’t been established: WHY does our article need to note that a player is (technically and probably temporarily) a free agent? Why NOT just wait until the situation stabilizes and we know whether he has a new contract (and with which team)? Blueboar (talk) 20:12, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I start this discussion based on the principle of wiki. For example if an edit war is established, then how should the conflict be resolved. And my claim is if there is no evidence of a new contract the player is a free agent. So if some editor change the status to free agent (removing the player from the team) then it should take evidence for other editor to revert the edit by showing that a new contract is signed. I think that would be the best if an edit war is established.

Lastly I didn't mean to agree or disagree your approach but I am viewing this from conflict resolution perspective. Winston (talk) 20:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than try to disentangle the errors in reasoning from the grammatical errors and factual errors in your response to me, far above, there's something more fundamentally worrying about it and all your responses here. It seems that you haven't actually read through Wikipedia:No original research, grasped the principles and how they apply to all of us including yourself, or seen the blunt statement in it,

Do not combine material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.

Your desire to say things about football players that are not explicitly stated by sources is fundamentally contrary to Wikipedia policy.

Does this mean Wikipedia may be out of date? Yes, but that's fine. It's the most up-to-date encyclopedia ever, but not everything in it is up-to-the-minute and that is not our purpose. Our absolute reliance on reliable sources means that we're not at the cutting edge of scientific research or reporting the current status of every company either. We don't promise that, we don't assume our readers expect or demand that, and we don't compromise our fundamental principles to attempt or pretend that.

Lastly, an extraordinary number of editors have explained to you in many different ways that you should not, must not, edit our articles in the way you propose. It's time for you to listen, heed that and accept it. NebY (talk) 20:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First of all multiple sources I use (in point form) point to the same conclusion, based on their definition. Also the source of FA I use is to say that player is deregistered from the club when the contract expire (the process saying that the player would no longer be registered). I am not combining the sources to state or imply a conclusion. Maybe my english is bad but multiple sources is not going to be used to make a conclusion. They are multiple references to say that the employer-employee relationship is broken when the contract expire.

There are lots of editor making Wiki edits every day. If there are people making the edit and if I need to revert his edit based on your suggestion, what is the grounds/where is the supporting policy that wikipedia empower me to revert the edit? Could you make an explanation more clearly so that I could follow? Throughout the discussion I am seeing concerns but I couldn't find there are policy that can strongly support the reverting the edit. Winston (talk) 22:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there an actual conflict needing resolution, or are you just curious about how we might handle a hypothetical conflict? Blueboar (talk) 20:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For example my edit on Cody Drameh Winston (talk) 21:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(After edit conflicts) Winston, rather than continually repeating the same point, it would be helpful if you stopped writing and tried to understand why people are disagreeing with you. See WP:Bludgeon. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:00, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Phil, I saw reply mostly on the concern (what if there are newer information in the future, then the edit you made would be wrong). I am explaining why the edit is showing the beauty of reliable source. I agree that some edit (e.g. removing the player from the club and then revert the edit later on) seems like a meaningless job but this is the best representation of the player at the moment people making edit (without any new reliable source of contract).

I didn't mean to make a mass edit but a reliable source of player is not attached to the club is needed when a player's contract expire doesn't seems right to me. Winston (talk) 21:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello everyone,

This is a kind reminder that the voting period to ratify the Wikimedia Movement Charter will be closed on July 9, 2024, at 23:59 UTC.

If you have not voted yet, please vote on SecurePoll.

On behalf of the Charter Electoral Commission,

RamzyM (WMF) 03:45, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This page has a broken infobox that I have no idea how to fix. Can someone help out with this? I hope this is the right place to ask. 🎸✒️ ZoidChan23 🥁🍕 20:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know whether this was the right place to ask, but I've reverted to an unbroken version. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:53, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, thanks. 🎸✒️ ZoidChan23 🥁🍕 15:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello all,

A special election has been called to fill additional vacancies on the U4C. The call for candidates phase is open from now through July 19, 2024.

The Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is a global group dedicated to providing an equitable and consistent implementation of the UCoC. Community members are invited to submit their applications in the special election for the U4C. For more information and the responsibilities of the U4C, please review the U4C Charter.

In this special election, according to chapter 2 of the U4C charter, there are 9 seats available on the U4C: four community-at-large seats and five regional seats to ensure the U4C represents the diversity of the movement. No more than two members of the U4C can be elected from the same home wiki. Therefore, candidates must not have English Wikipedia, German Wikipedia, or Italian Wikipedia as their home wiki.

Read more and submit your application on Meta-wiki.

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-- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 00:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If nobody from this project is eligible, what exactly is the point of posting a call for candidates here? – Joe (talk) 12:15, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I think it is useful for the community to be kept informed of the progress of filling the seats on the Universal Code of Conduct coordinating committee, including the plan for a special election and that candidates are being sought, even if those candidates must be from other wikis. isaacl (talk) 18:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, I can imagine the reaction of some editors if they found out such an election were being conducted without the English WP being officially notified. Donald Albury 20:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You might know someone from a different project whom you'd like to encourage to apply. You might be reading this page, but your home wiki is actually somewhere else. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedians might be interested in knowing about a popular article released yesterday about admin @David Gerard, the alleged systematic misuse of Reliable sources and numerous instances of editing under clear COIs across several years. The article has received substantial attention on Twitter (600k views in less than a day). I'm skeptical of some specific claims made in the article, but overall, I think that it makes important well-sourced accusations of misbehavior, and that the community (and admins) might want to have a broader discussion about it.

I'm not sure what would be appropriate venues for discussion on this. agucova (talk) 14:57, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appropriate venues would not include someone's blog or Twitter. I don't know whether David Gerard is right or wrong on the subject of reliable sources, but I do know that tracingwoodgrains.com and Twitter are not. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They're words, written in the English language, which you can read and decide whether they're true or not.

I mean, if there's a "wet paint" sign on the bench, would you just ignore it and plop straight down because it doesn't have a green entry at RSP? jp×g🗯️ 19:13, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they're English words, but they will only all be read be Wikipedia-obsessives (or, even worse, people who are obsessed with one Wikipedia editor) with too much time on their hands. "Wet paint" can be read in a split second. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On a first read through, this is clearly a thoroughly researched piece by a writer who is familiar with how Wikipedia operates and diligently provides his diffs. It's not a random Twitter complaint to dismiss out of hand. It deserves careful consideration. – Teratix ₵ 15:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

no one is a villain in their own mind is very much my feeling from reading it. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:09, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sophocles worded it so much more eloquently. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did a spot check of several of the sources and conversations and did not particularly think it was fair in its analysis. It felt very deliberately set up to make the standard "Wikipedia hates conservatives" critique, especially in how it framed the result of the PinkNews discussion. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)^{Talk to Me!} 18:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. It's angry logorrhea from a Quillette fan. Nothing of consequence. XOR'easter (talk) 19:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hate when people think they can decide "what is of consequence" for other people. 2603:7000:92F0:1100:51CB:6D03:8226:ABA1 (talk) 06:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it could have been worse -- it could have been an angry driveby troll comment at the Village Pump. jp×g🗯️ 19:29, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Nothing of consequence" including BLP CoI violations? I don't intend to relitigate anything but that did seem pretty consequential to me. iczero (talk) 05:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the article did not focus on this at all, but rather on Gerard's behavior. This does not seem like a crucial consideration to the discussion. agucova (talk) 20:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're so blessed to have DG. I stopped reading when they damningly referenced his views on the Huffington Post, which apparently changed between 2010 and 2020. Shocking stuff. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To add a summary for onlookers not looking to spend 2 hours diving into the article.

The article is a pretty in-depth investigation from someone familiar with Wikipedia policies, where they allege that David Gerard has, over the span of almost a decade, engaged in systematic and strategic editing in a personal crusade against several people, violating not only a number of enwiki policies, but also largely going unnoticed, despite a number of disparate ArbCom cases and reported incidents, all which failed to see a bigger pattern in his edits.

The author explains that a key way he managed to do this was by feeding negative information about some of these people to journalists, which would then publish articles with the information, which he would then use as references in their articles to portray them in a negative light. He would also use the Reliable sources system differentially, in numerous instances using it to justify his edits under COI.

The article contains many serious allegations, and my impression after digging into them is that at least some of them have substantial and straightforward merit, directly verifiable from the provided evidence.

I urge editors to not get bogged down on specific claims made in the introduction about the Reliable sources system, since this is not actually the main focus of the article. The accusations made are far more serious and far-reaching. agucova (talk) 18:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, this is how I feel about it. The big claims are BlPs Ask me about air Cryogenic air (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah other editors are capable of reading, and having read it all I can't say I'm very jnoressed. "largely going unnoticed, despite a number of disparate ArbCom cases" I've yet to hear of an ArbCom case that goes 'largely unnoticed'. feeding negative information about some of these people to journalists I'm absolutely sure, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the journalist and editors of the Guardian didn't take one single persons word for granted without making certain of what they published. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the policy violation is not the feeding information to the journalists, but then using that reference to edit under a clear COI (not only being in a crusade against the person, but also having been a source). Also, with "largely going unnoticed" I meant that the crusades/COIs were what went mostly unnoticed. agucova (talk) 20:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If they've been taken to ANI or ArbCom they haven't gone unnoticed, the results just weren't to some editors liking. And if a reliable source substantiates the claims then it's a very weak COI. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, maybe I didn't express myself clearly. I meant that the ANI and ArbCom cases just didn't cover the accusations in the article, but instead focus on specific things that on their own don't look like flagrant violations. The Scott Alexander ANI did establish the COI, but didn't notice the other articles where Gerard had also done the same thing. The article threads them together to make a broader case. agucova (talk) 20:41, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well if there is really anything there, and I still don't believe there is, then someone will need to make a case at ANI or ArbCom with diffs to show the behaviour. But I would note that anything on rationalwiki has nothing to do with Wikipedia, same with Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, etc. I agreed elsewhere recently that editors making nasty remarks on external sites should be covered by Wikipedia policies (it isn't currently), but that would also apply to linking to tweats that do the same. Also anyone wanting to discuss the reliability of Pinknews should take it to WP:RSN, same with Quillette or Unz, Gerard did not decide anything about this sources, and any personal biases they may have (which I'm sure they do, as all people have biases) were only one voice in a community decision. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agreed elsewhere recently that editors making nasty remarks on external sites should be covered by Wikipedia policies - though it's worth pointing out that what people post here is still covered; linking to an offsite screed doesn't protect people from WP:ASPERSIONs. Agucova has posted repeated aspersions about DG in this thread, outright alleging a cloud of vague sinister activities with no specific policy-based accusations or evidence attached to them at all. If that keeps happening I would suggest a WP:BOOMERANG; it is not acceptable for editors to try and drag off-wiki harassment like this here. --Aquillion (talk) 21:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was noting the linking to a tweet, now linked by multiple editors, that describes DG as 'the Forest Gump of the internet' and that doing so is probably against policy. I was just trying to not point it out directly. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC

That's something I actually called myself, 'cos I keep being on the sidelines of interesting things. (Though I never played college football and don't run, like, at all.) The blog post now attributes it - David Gerard (talk) 22:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I've struck my comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note my careful use of the word 'alleged'. I haven't made any accusations. I'm in the course of preparing a proper ANI case, but it's not simple or fast when there's two decades of context to go through. agucova (talk) 21:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Alleged" does not free someone from the constraints of WP:ASPERSIONs; the entire point of the policy is to prevent people from making vague handwavy aspersions of the sort that you are introducing here. --Aquillion (talk) 22:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

'Diffs or no allegations' is the normal standard, and those allegations should be at the appropriate venue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:23, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article was also linked here. It seems to be today's Twitterstorm. If the people posting this want to get something done, rather than just whinge about how awful Wikipedia is, they need to make their point succinctly on Wikipedia, rather than expect people to read a very long blog post whose provenance we do not know. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've provided a summary above, but the article covers so many accusations that it's not easy to compress it all. It's just an inherently very complex case. agucova (talk) 20:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After reading it myself, it mostly looks like nonsense written by an angry culture-warrior type who detests David and who is upset that WP:RSes don't cover their pet topics the way they like, but who doesn't have any actual arguments or diffs to back up policy-based complaints. It also looks like most of the other people who have read it seem to agree, so I'd suggest you either WP:DROPTHESTICK or make any actual arguments for specific policies you feel were violated and things you believe should happen on WP:ANI or WP:AE, with actual diffs that relate to policy-based arguments and not just links to random blogs. If you insist on doing so, I'd strongly suggest doing it without linking the screed in question - it's clearly not helpful and fails to make a coherent policy-based argument itself. Either way I'd expect a WP:BOOMERANG if you keep pushing it too hard; we have no control over what people post off-wiki, but on-wiki, editors are protected from WP:HOUNDing and WP:ASPERSIONS, which you're already pretty deep into. Pointing at a largely nonsensical blogpost from an axe-grindy culture-warrior and asking people to not get bogged down on specific claims while making vague handwavy aspersions against a well-established editor in good standing with stuff like the accusations made are far more serious and far-reaching is not acceptable. If you want to continue without becoming the focus yourself, then every single thing you say about DG needs to be extremely specific about what policies you feel have been violated, with specific diffs for each accusation; if you're unwilling to do that, you need to WP:DROPTHESTICK, accept that you got hoodwinked by a blog post, and move on, preferably with an apology to DG for bringing this nonsense here in the first place. --Aquillion (talk) 21:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From a quick read, this seems to just be someone who has multi-decade beef with David writing a rambling and often nonsensical screed. Best course of action is to just ignore it, it'll blow over. Curbon7 (talk) 20:27, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I read the article, and it doesn't make a bit of sense. What does the price of Bitcoin have to do with Gerard's influence over the definition of reliable sources? It piles up detail on detail with no clear explanation of what the actual bannable behavior is. Agucova's insistence that we "not get bogged down on specific claims" basically means "Gerard is bad, don't worry about understanding why". Toughpigs (talk) 21:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I said to, "not get bogged down on specific claims made in the introduction about the Reliable sources system". I'm saying that the relevant claims are the ones after the introduction. agucova (talk) 21:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• STOP - or at least pause. If we are going to talk about a specific editor, at least have the courtesy to notify them of the discussion. Blueboar (talk) 22:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize for not giving a notice to DG; I seem to have forgotten some of my Wikipedia etiquette with time.

Because I worry about further hurting the case for what, I believe, are serious accusations, I'll follow Aquillion's suggestion and WP:DROPTHESTICK. I'm ceasing discussion on this thread until I can write down a proper ANI case with a good restatement of the evidence in the article. Admins should feel free to lock down this discussion.

I don't feel like I'm the best person to write down an ANI case, so if anyone wants to take this over from me, feel free to let me know through my talk page. agucova (talk) 22:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for covering this important controversy. There is a balance to be found between protecting whistleblowers and safeguarding the accused from potential defamation. But the mentality in this thread is too much about discarding the accusation without having taken the time to read them.

I don't know how representative the article is of David Gerard's edits in general, since it focuses on the problems. But the article is an in-depth investigation, well-written and well-sourced. The fact that it's self-published should not be a reason to simply ignore any piece of information from it, especially in the context of a discussion, and considering that it links to many Wikipedia diffs. As suggested here, there should be some nuance: "Self-published works are sometimes acceptable as sources, so self-publication is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to automatically dismiss a source as 'bad' or 'unreliable' or 'unusable'.".

I do not know David Gerard personally, but regrettably, the article resonates with my experiences over the past few months. You can occasionally see high-profile editors that show a recurring pattern of strawman arguments, edit wars, sarcasms, and pedantry about Wikipedia's rules that justifies opinionated edits. I have much respect for the people who spend significant time trying to improve the encyclopedia. But it's tragic how aggressive activism and bad epistemics sometimes bring out the worst in very smart and morally dedicated people. Alenoach (talk) 21:17, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TracingWoodgrains (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an editor here. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the tag. I have edited only very rarely, and I do not believe it would be appropriate for me to step in for the first time as a participant in an ongoing controversy spurred by one of my articles. This is obviously a subject I have strong feelings about, but I do not believe I should bring those feelings onto Wikipedia given the conflict of interest created by my article. I believe my writing speaks for itself on this matter. TracingWoodgrains (talk) 23:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then you are admittedly not here to build the encyclopedia. Since you haven't broken any rules, I don't see any reason to block you for you to be blocked on that basis. Maybe you'll decide to become active. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, I guess you could put it that way? I don't believe that policy fits; it's not that I'm not here to build an encyclopedia, it's that I'm not here at all. I've never been an active Wikipedia user and am only responding to people now because they're tagging me in. I researched details about your site as a journalistic exercise from the standpoint of a curious outsider. Were I to edit in the future, I suspect having my first serious activity in the site be engaging in a detailed dispute over an article I wrote would be a poor way to begin. TracingWoodgrains (talk) 01:47, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Valjean: It's good that you "don't see any reason to block you [TracingWoodgrains] on that basis", because you can't block anyone on this website for any reason. -- Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 18:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

LOL! As well I know. I'm not an admin, but my comment was intended to prevent such a thing from happening. I had just witnessed an account related to this debacle blocked for that reason (NOTHERE), and it was justified. In this case, I don't see any justifiable reason for a block. My comment was purely preventive. After I wrote it, I realized that my comment might trigger such a reaction, so I finished off with that comment in order to prevent it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have now stricken that wording, since it led to this misunderstanding. I hope the works. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When somebody writes an article on an external website critical of Wikipedia, I am not aware of any standard practice to ping their account with vaguely-worded threats(?) of administrative action, and I would be opposed to starting such a practice, as it does not seem smart or useful. jp×g🗯️ 19:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice if you read what I have written before commenting. There was no threat to this editor. I hoped they would begin editing more. I just wanted to prevent what happened to another editor from happening here. It was just written clumsily, so AGF. BTW, that other editor has been unblocked. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What the post actually says[edit]

It is very strange to me how many people are in this section giving confident opinions about the merits of the claims in the post, while admitting to not having read it, or saying something about how its "provenance" is unknown -- it's not a cuneiform tablet, it's a blog post on the Internet, you can just go read it, and then use your brain to tell whether or not the things it says are true. If you aren't going to read it, then your opinion on whether it's true is almost by definition incapable of being useful. At any rate, it is fairly long, so I will reproduce here the summary I posted elsewhere.

If you read the article, it's not really a screed, nor is it "nonsensical", nor is it any of the other weird stuff people are saying who have not read it. For those without a lot of time on their hands, it's about an even split between:

1. Statements of fact that every drama-sniffer around here is already quite familiar with (people fling shit about politics all the time at RSN, Gerard was topic-banned a few years ago for aggressively pursuing COI edits in re Dr. Scotty Codex, etc)
2. Opinions that well-respected Wikipedians express all the time (it is a gigantic pain in the arse when people queue up AWB jobs to indiscriminately mass-remove deprecated sources; RSN is often a sewer).
3. Catalog of various based deeds David has done over time (represent WMUK for years, be the first CheckUser of all time, lead the charge against the crystal-woo morons, be the sysadmin of a really funny shock site, be right about the Chelsea Manning fiasco), various cringe deeds (get topic-banned after an aggressive COI campaign to defame aforementioned Dr. Scotty Codex, ongoing sloppy mass-removals of deprecated sources), and various neutral deeds (he hates cryptocurrency, and I guess he was a big LessWrong guy back in the day, which in retrospect makes the thing with Dr. Codex even more silly).

The main bombshell accusation being made in this piece against Gerard is something that basically everyone here knows: there is a big gaggle of libs who are always trying to use WP:RSP as a septic tank into which to flush newspapers they don't like. Now, before some bumberchute at Wikipediocracy gets their hemorrhoids up reading me type this dangerous harmful right-wing propaganda: it is not just libs who do this. Wikipedia, in its majestic equality, also lets Republicans act like chimpanzees about whether the Wetumpka Argus-Picayune or whatever is destroying our country and must be removed from all citations. But broadly, I think we are all pretty well aware of this. By volume, about 10% of RSN is discussion attempting to find consensus on what sources are reliable for use on Wikipedia, and 90% is rancid political mudflinging. Does anybody seriously disagree with this? It's a zoo! Clearly, we are ashamed enough about it being a zoo to insta-gib n00bs who show up and tell us so. But are we proud enough of our encyclopedia to actually fix it? jp×g🗯️ 19:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you have you numbers back to front, the vast majority of RSN is banal questions about uncontroversial sources. The contentious discussions get lots of attention, but editors then miss all the minor discussions that go past unnoticed.

If anyone has any disagreement with consensus on Pinknews, Unz, or Quillette can open a discussion. If editors don't agree with them they might look to the quality of their arguments rather than posts that claim one individual is some master influencer. Yes the culture war generates lots of crap, but RSN isn't the cause of that.

Also again yes I read the whole post before even my first reply. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:38, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's what I mean: there really are discussions assessing the reliability of random unfamiliar sources in the boring straightforward way the noticeboard is well-suited for. The problem is that there's been a separate system grafted onto that, in which people write thousands of words of barely-readable walltext trying to give incredibly detailed assessments of decades' worth of output by major national newspapers... and then the only possible outcomes are "green", "yellow", "red" and "gray". The noticeboard/source list format does not work very well for doing this. This separate system is operated almost entirely by political animus, and unlike most onwiki politics arguments, it has wide-ranging destructive effects on the entire project.

For example, if there is some big nasty 600-comment-long RfC about gun control at Talk:Gun control, the worst-case scenario is that the article gun control says something dumb, temporarily (there can be another RfC later, and it's pretty simple to go back to an old revision). But if there is some big nasty RfC about gun control at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, the worst-case scenario -- it doesn't actually matter which side wins, because both sides call it "victory" when one of the the other guys' sources is shitlisted -- is that some hapless website/newspaper gets painted red or gray, and somebody will go on a cackling AWB spree and completely hose up ten thousand articles by ripping out half the references, including articles about other political stuff that had nothing to do with the original argument.

This will also tear up articles about random stuff that isn't even remotely political. Many of them will then run the risk of being deleted because there "have no sources" (read: they have perfectly usable sources that happened to employ a guy who wrote something really stupid about politics ten years later). The loss of this content and these articles is, in practice, typically permanent. Source deprecation/GUNREL is basically a cluster munition that causes collateral damage all over the project every time it's fired, and I think we would probably be better off if we tried to be cognizant about this and resist the urge to give everything a reductive color-coded label. jp×g🗯️ 20:11, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But the flip side is that political bias can also lead people to place excessive weight on trivial things or the opinions of non-experts who don't really belong in the article; or, worst of all, to take things that have actually dubious sourcing and state it as fact. If we don't draw a line as to the quality of required sources, what happens in political articles is that angry partisans on all sides of a dispute cram in everything they can dredge up, either to push the article in one direction or in a genuine good-faith effort to "balance out" what they see as bias by others. This results in articles that are bloated, unreadable, full of dubiously-sourced points or counterpoints, and which generally fail to reflect the tone, focus, and accuracy we would find from higher-quality sources. I think that if you look over how high-traffic articles have progressed over the last decade (as RSN and RSP achieved their current state), they have mostly improved in every respect - more accurate, better sourcing, more neutral, and so on. See eg. this paper discussing it. Saying "we're losing content" isn't meaningful because high-traffic, well-established articles aren't supposed to grow endlessly; they constantly both gain and lose content. The question is whether we're maintaining a balance that reflects the best sources - ie. removing poorly-supported, marginal or undue things and adding high-quality well-sourced things in a more balanced manner - and overall I think we've been getting better at that over time. For the most part, the only egregiously unbalanced articles are ones that have few editors, and that's not something that can be solved with policy or practice, since those things still require editors to implement them. --Aquillion (talk) 02:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think perhaps the biggest issue is the "cackling AWB spree". Sure, we shouldn't rely on unreliable news articles, but winning an "argument" on RSP shouldn't be a good reason to rip sources out of a huge pile of wiki articles. It's a gross overreaction if anything and a huge pain to fix if/when yet another argument breaks out on RSP and reverses that "decision". iczero (talk) 05:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly my main take-away from the article is that anyone who edits a lot and has opinions is going to inevitably end up pushing those opinions one way or another. This is probably a bad thing but cannot really be fixed: the most we can do is take care of the more egregious episodes. —Ashley Y 19:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Usual disclaimer that David Gerard is a huge asset to the site and is usually right... but... without relitigating old disputes, let's not say that "[DG] was right about the Chelsea Manning fiasco". That was undoubtedly his lowest moment. What could have been a boring, standard WP:Requested Move turned into months of drama because DG insisted on doing the move out of process. If he had just dropped off a !vote like any other editor, or hell, done nothing, the article was going to move anyway, as indeed it eventually did after the dust settled. Just rather than having it be a community decision, just like 99.9% of other potentially controversial moves, he just tried to cowboy the move through on grounds of personal authority? It was a mistake. It made the result weaker, not stronger, as it opens up tales like this about admin abuse as the reason why, rather than "no this is what the community decided." The lesson is to just wait for the discussion to close. SnowFire (talk) 03:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]