Talk:KCTY (Kansas City): Difference between revisions

Missouri Unassessed

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Television: Stations Unassessed

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The request to rename this article to KCTY (Kansas City) has been carried out. If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

• KCTY (defunct) → KCTY (Kansas City)
• KFAZ (defunct) → KFAZ (Louisiana)
• KFOR-TV (defunct) → KFOR-TV (Nebraska)
• KWEM-LP (defunct) → KWEM-LP (Oklahoma)
• KWJD-LP (defunct) → KWJD-LP (California)
• WFBT (defunct) → WFBT (New York)
• WHFV (defunct) → WHFV (Fredericksburg, Virginia)
• WHDH-TV (defunct) → WHDH-TV (1957–72)
• WNAC-TV (defunct) → WNAC-TV (Boston)
• KQBN-LP (defunct) → KQBN-LP (Arizona)
• KESU-LP (defunct) → KESU-LP (Hanamaulu, Hawaii)
• KJLR-LP (defunct) → KJLR-LP (Arkansas)
• WLPN-LP (defunct) → WLPN-LP (New Orleans)

– This RM follows from a recently concluded RfC. It proposes 13 page moves to change (defunct) disambiguators to more specific ones for television station articles in the United States.

In the WHDH-TV case, year disambiguation is a must given the reuse of the callsign for another Boston TV station. Raymie (t • c) 07:01, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. The changes don't indicate that the station is no longer around, & look like they could be for an active station. At current, only a further delineation is needed if 1 or more stations have used the same callsign, like WRAP.Stereorock (talk) 10:58, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per above, bad idea and confusing. Location-based hatnotes are for disambiguation...the WHDH one could be acceptable, but that's because the callsign is shared with another TV station. Xenon54 (talk) 14:03, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Stereorock and Xenon54: My response to both of these would be rooted in the RfC. I particularly appreciated this comment from SMcCandlish in the RfC: Note that we don't have bio articles named things like "Xerxes Y. Zounds (deceased)", or company articles like "XYZ Corporation (defunct)", or bands like "The Primitives (disbanded)", or a product like "ABC Biscuits (discontinued)". A search for articles using (defunct) as a disambiguator is primarily turning up radio and TV station articles. That finding correlates with the comment by SounderBruce that kick-started this whole process last month in one of my DYK nominations: I didn't realize how many articles are breaking the normal conventions for disambiguation...it definitely needs to be addressed at the project level.

  If I were to have articles "John Q. Public" and "John Q. Public (deceased)", those titles are not as useful for disambiguation as "John Q. Public (painter)" and "John Q. Public (politician)". This is a similar change to that one. Raymie (t • c) 19:13, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Xenon54 and Raymie:Broadcasting stations are different. The callsigns get reused, whereas “XYZ Corporation” may not be. WHDH-TV/5 is defunct, and operated on a separate license from WCVB-TV, & the current WHDH/7. Similarly, WHDH aid a different license from WNAC-TV in Boston, which is also different from the current WNAC-TV in Providence. Having WNAC-TV (Boston) & WNAC-TV as separate articles could imply that there are 2 currently-operating stations with the callsign WNAC-TV! No, marking defunct stations as defunct is the clearest way to denote that fact & that the station no longer operates, & therefore is not the same as the current holder of the callsign. What you’re suggesting just creates further confusion & muddying of the waters, so to speak.Stereorock (talk) 22:15, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per previous consensus discussion. The above opposes are sorely confused. WP does not indicate in article titles whether something is current, new, extinct, obsolete, dead, active, retired, a lost work, or any other such temporal notion. Ever.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:28, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @SMcCandlish:Comment We oppose commentors are not confused. Radio & Television stations have a finite number of callsigns available, some of which get re-used on different stations in the same geographic location. This is not the same as "The New York Metropolitans" & "New York Mets", for example, which are 2 separate teams in 2 separate centuries using the same nickname, for example. Each U.S. broadcasting station has a callsign issued to it by the F.C.C., which "owns" the callsign, & can reissue it whenever the old station gives it up, either through a callsign change, or going off the air. Therefore, it is necessary to differentiate between a current callsign holder & a defunct station which held the same callsign, if that callsign is in current use. If no station has taken a callsign since when the previous holder gave up that callsign, the "(defunct)" doesn't have to be added.

  All callsigns may be "current" in that they can all be issued by the F.C.C., and this is important to consider when discussing this issue. This is what the "consensus" doesn't take into account in this situation. When discussing WXKW, there were 2 unrelated stations in the past which used it in the Albany area, neither of which is current, so the callsign WXKW can be reissued, and in fact exists in Key West. It therefore becomes necessary to indicate that these old stations are defunct because the callsign has been reissued. Otherwise, there arises the need to created 2 separate articles, one based on the 1948-53 WXKW, & another based on the 1961-6 incarnation. They were both in the Albany area. Adding (defunct) is a cleaner, easier method of article naming.

  One final word about consensus: I do not know of any other members of WP:WPRS, or its equivalent T.V. articles who were made aware of this discussion, apart from Raymie (if Raymie is a member of the TV group, I do not know. It appears Raymie isn't in WP:WPRS). Therefore, I put forward that the consensus isn't valid as we were not made aware of this discussion, and could have provided input then.Stereorock (talk) 11:15, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Lots of things have a limited, prescribed number a names available to them, and we still do not disambiguate them with temporally specific labelling. It just is not done here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:53, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Just because "it's not done elsewhere" doesn't mean that this isn't the right way to do it here. We have been doing it this way for over a decade. It works. There is no need to change it. Might I add that I did not see any note of the RfC on the WP:WPRS talk page, meaning the "consensus" is invalid as it was not made known to the appropriate groups.Stereorock (talk) 11:10, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Additional: as noted below, changing it to (community) creates an impression to a less-knowledgeable user that the current callsign holder is being heard in another city. There are several active stations calling themselves "WEEI", for example, but the only actual WEEI is on 850 kHz in Boston, and WEEI-FM is on 93.7 MHz at Lawrence, Massachusetts. WVEI & WVEI-FM are not WEEI, but call themsleves that. Changing defunct stations to the community methodology may create confusion that a defunct station is relaying an active station. Also, the F.C.C. does differentiate defunct stations by adding a leading D in front of the callsigns (at least in stations listed in the CDBS.)Stereorock (talk) 15:18, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Nah. This amounts to a "consensus is wrong, dammit!" argument. If the community has already decided we do not disambiguate this way, an argument that it should do so after all is a day late and dollar short. You're welcome to make a proposal to change it, at WT:DAB, or WT:AT, or WP:VPPRO, but trying to change it one article at a time is not constructive (it has WP:CONLEVEL and WP:FAITACCOMPLI issues). Just because you can think of a rationale for using such disambiguation doesn't magically mean it trumps all the rationales for not doing it. No one said the idea was stupid or crazy; it's simply outweighed by other concerns. If it weren't, we'd've been disambiguating this way from the start, across innumerable topics. The "well, we've been doing it with these articles for a long time" argument someone made is bogus, per WP:CONTENTAGE. Lots of wikiprojects on subjects of narrow interest do unhelpful things that end up being reversed years later after sufficient numbers of disinterested editors notice.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:42, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support—as noted, this sort of disambiguation is just not done here for other subjects, and this case doesn't warrant an exception. Imzadi 1979 → 07:06, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Again, this has been done this way for over a decade, and the RfC was not made known to either the Radio Stations nor TV Stations project that I can find, skewing the results. The way we label articles simply works, and works well.Stereorock (talk) 11:13, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. No good reason to treat stations differently fron anything else. older ≠ wiser 09:51, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  There is, as station callsigns are not merely names, but callsign issued by the government, which is the entity that "owns" callsigns. The stations themselves operate under a license, and own the physical assets, but not the frequency nor the callsign. If this were a case of naming by the station name, like "Z100 (New Jersey)" & "Z100 (Portland, Oregon)", that would be one thing. Those companies own that intellectual property, but the callsigns WHTZ & KKRZ are not. In that sense, the callsigns are never officially retired, and can be reused, so there must be a differentiation made between the active station using that callsign, & any inactive stations. The only times that is currently deviated from is if more than one defunct station used the call, like in the case of WRAP (Orlando, Florida-area station in the 1920s vs. the Norfolk, Virginia-area WRAP). With how many stations came on the air & went off in the 1920s, changing the current naming convention would create issues. I maintain that the current system is best.Stereorock (talk) 11:25, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Qualified support. The proposal is a good implementation of the RfC's consensus and matches other areas of Wikipedia. WXKW (defunct) is unusual because it describes two former stations using those letters at different times. As the topic is the radio stations rather than their callsign, it should probably be split into one article per topic, called WXKW (1948–1953) and WXKW (1961–1966) or just WXKW (1948) and WXKW (1961). In fact, we should consider qualifying all these titles by date rather than place, as dates are unambiguous and future-proof. We might also modify WHDH's title to WHDH-TV (1957–1972) per MOS:DATERANGE, or just WHDH-TV (1957). Certes (talk) 10:51, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I say the RfC is invalid because there was no notice made to the Radio Stations nor T.V. stations projects' pages, that I can find. There is no good reason to change it because (defunct) has been done this way for over a decade, it works, and callsigns may be reissued necessitating the need to differentiate a defunct station from one currently using a callsign. There may also be a problem with using (C.o.L.) after the callsign as more than one station licensed to the same municipality can use the same callsign. Even (date) could be ambiguous if 2 defunct stations used the same callsign within the same year.Stereorock (talk) 11:16, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Another exception to the above WXKW case: WFCI. WFCI was the callsign on 2 separate stations at Pawtucket, Rhode Island, which had the same owner, but existed at different times. The first one was in existence circa 1927-32, & again from 1941-1954. There are 2 distinct separate licenses for these stations, but are covered at WFCI (defunct) because of the common callsign & owner. One could argue that the second station was a continuation of the first, in a sense, but as far as the F.C.C. is concerned, these are 2 separate licenses.Stereorock (talk) 11:29, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. The problem with "(defunct)" is that it places all the emphasis on what is past vs. what is current. As an encyclopedia, and not a guide to current FCC call signs, there should not be a presumption that subjects which are no longer around are less notable than ones that are. Also, there is an inherent contradiction regarding scope. If the subject of the article is a station, "(defunct)" does not adequately distinguish former stations from each other - both the location and years might be necessary to do so in some cases. (If the subject were the callsign, there would be no reason to separate the current incarnation from the former incarnations. But as the stations have nothing in common other than an arbitrarily assigned callsign, I don't think that is an appropriate scope.)--Trystan (talk) 12:54, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Where is there a presumption that a defunct station is less notable than the current holder of a callsign? In some instances, the defunct station may be more notable than the current callsign holder, but the current callsign holder is the current callsign holder. When the callsign changes, the article changes with it. There is more chance for confusion by putting in a community of license than defunct because it makes it look like there are 2 holders of that particular callsign! At least with (defunct), there is a differentiation being made. In the instance of 2 or more defunct stations with the same callsign, only then does a need arise to add another modifier, like years of operation or community of license. No, Wikipedia is not a guide to callsigns, but for stations that are licensed by their regulatory authorities, that is how we name their pages. There is so much misconception about callsigns that Wikipedia should follow the regulatory authorities' methods; for instance, there are not 2 WPROs in Providence, R.I.. WPRO is the A.M. station whereas WPRO-FM is the F.M. station. We add (AM) to WPRO's call for the article as there is a need. However, if there is an earlier, defunct, WPRO, your average Joe could think that WPRO is being relayed in another city today. That is another problem with the proposed changes: it makes defunct stations' articles look like active stations.Stereorock (talk) 13:21, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  It’s not the job of the disambiguator to convey if something no longer exists. The lead sentence should clarify that. If the former station is the primary topic, it wouldn’t have a disambiguator at all, only the newer one would.--Trystan (talk) 13:47, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Qualifying by date range rather than location should convey the closure to even the most average of Joes. We might also create redirects from KABC (Place) to aid searching. Certes (talk) 14:05, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  If we did end up changing this, I like your date suggestion over the by-community suggestion.Stereorock (talk) 15:42, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  At this point I am neutral as to whether there is a better alternative to using "defunct" as a disambiguator. However, I strongly oppose qualifying by date range. The articles for defunct stations, as with currently operating stations should be about the station's entire history, regardless of how many call signs it has had, with very few exceptions. As such, in order to properly convey what the article is about, the date range should include the station's entire history of operation. If this method was used there could be overlap with other stations that held the call sign used as the article's title within that period, making it rather confusing for readers. Using only the years the station held the call sign used as the title is even more problematic, as creates the false impression that the article is about the period the station held that call sign, rather than about the entire history of the station, leading readers and editors alike to believe that the main content of the article should be confined to the history of the station that is within those years. It effectively changes the article's subject in the minds of many of the readers. If a defunct station only held one call sign during its entire years of operation this would not be a problem, but there should be one consistent method for dealing with defunct stations.--Tdl1060 (talk) 23:48, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  That's why I am in favor of keeping the naming methodology as-is, as it works. If it's one defunct station, it gets (defunct). If it's 2 or more, then it gets a (community) or variation thereof.Stereorock (talk) 10:41, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  That simply proves that other disambiguation is readily available, and we thus have no need to apply "(defunct)" to this category – alone of all categories – as if it were mystically special.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:45, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Concern: I can't find a 13-page RfC, nor was this change brought up on the WP:WPRS nor TV pages, and should be.Stereorock (talk) 13:37, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: The radio station discussion on this same issue is here. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:28 on April 4, 2019 (UTC)

  Because there are 2 discussions happening, I don't think consensus can be reached on one page & not the other. This should all be on a single, separate, page.Stereorock (talk) 10:48, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Strongly Oppose: Having these pages with current-like callsigns makes the reader thing the station is still active. The word "defunct" clearly states the station is no longer on the air. If there are two stations with the same callsign and each is defunct, then the callsign and city and state can come into play. But when it's just one callsign it's silly and a bad idea. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:29 on April 4, 2019 (UTC)

  Agree with Neutralhomer (talk · contribs)'s statement.Stereorock (talk) 10:38, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Indicating the active/alive/current versus inactive/dead/defunct status of a subject is not the purpose or part of the purpose of our article titles; that's the job of the article content. How you can you (plural) not already be aware of this? Do you not notice that we do not have article titles like "Jasper Wood (deceased)" and "The High Life (canceled TV series)" and "Albania (former satrapy)"? It's not how we disambiguate – we use "(photographer)" and "(1996 TV series)" and simply "(satrapy)", respectively. When we need to disambiguate further we add a detail, e.g. "(TV series)" → "(1996 TV series)"; we don't add "currentness" status. If there'd been two satrapies named Albania and one still existed, the historical one would would be at "Albania (Sassanid satrapy)", not "Albania (former satrapy)".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:35, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per SMcCandlish.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:51, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Again, because something is "not done here", doesn't make it the right way to do it. The best way to do it is how it is being done.Stereorock (talk) 13:53, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Then make a WP:PROPOSAL at WT:DAB to change our disambiguation rules.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:35, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]