Talk:Chemical element: Difference between revisions

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This article is written in British English with Oxford and IUPAC spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise; aluminium, sulfur and caesium) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide and chemistry naming conventions, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

"By November 2016, the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry had recognized a total of 118 elements"^{[citation needed]}

"In chemistry, an element is a pure substance consisting only of atoms that all have the same numbers of protons in their atomic nuclei"^{[citation needed]}

The very first sentence says "an element is a pure substance consisting only of atoms that all have the same numbers of protons in their nuclei". This is one aspect of the IUPAC definition, but only part of the definition. From https://goldbook.iupac.org/terms/view/C01022 -

"1. A species of atoms; all atoms with the same number of protons in the atomic nucleus.

2. A pure chemical substance composed of atoms with the same number of protons in the atomic nucleus. Sometimes this concept is called the elementary substance as distinct from the chemical element as defined under 1, but mostly the term chemical element is used for both concepts."

Treating an element as only the "pure substance" is incompatible with the statement later in the introductory paragraph "All of the baryonic matter of the universe is composed of chemical elements." - Most baryonic matter is NOT in "pure substance" form, but in compounds and/or ionized states. Later in the paragraph states "... elements occur in the Earth as compounds or mixtures" - but how could an "element occur" if it is only defined as a pure substance? There's a clear confusion caused by two different meanings for the same word. The same problem manifests throughout the article (for example the awkward statement on allotropes "Atoms of chemically pure elements may bond to each other chemically in more than one way", vs the rather clear "Isotopes are atoms of the same element ..., but having different numbers of neutrons"). I think both definitions need to be stated up front, as the concept of "element" encompasses both definitions and atoms of a particular kind in all their forms (compound, ionized, etc.). ArthurPSmith (talk) 16:13, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As APS knows, over at Wikidata exactly the same discussion is going on: see d:Wikidata_talk:WikiProject_Chemistry#Data_structure_for_elemental_substance_and_element. Whatever the outcome, WD and enwiki best should be consistent or align.

Incidentally-1, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elements § Article scope: add molecules (like I2) to scope & infobox? touches thie same topic (@Double sharp:).

Incidentally-2, looks like there are more variants than just allotropes: see the developing list at d:Wikidata:WikiProject Chemistry/Tools#Chemical element and corresponding simple substance.

-DePiep (talk) 16:29, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Was [:https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chemical_element&oldid=963545483 that revision] better? Burzuchius (talk) 16:37, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think so. The second definition could be maybe mentioned as an addition to that old lede paragraph, saying "The term is also often used to refer to a pure chemical substance whose atoms all have the same proton number." Double sharp (talk) 16:46, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it was "better" in all respects, but it did have a better first sentence. I don't mean to impose a Wikidata-based view of the matter here either, even though that is where this problem was pointed out to me - the question is what is a true and consistent thing to say about it. And no, this article doesn't need to wait for any outcome of a Wikidata discussion. It's clear this article as it stands adopts both meanings inconsistently. The "species of atom" definition is more encompassing, but it does not quite capture the substance side of it. Perhaps an opening definition along the lines of "There are two closely related meanings to the term chemical element, as a species of atoms, or a pure substance composed only of atoms of the same species". ? ArthurPSmith (talk) 18:12, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've adjusted the opening sentence and doubled the goldbook reference to be clear where the claim is coming from. There may be some other cleanup that would be appropriate here also - I'm not sure where the "chemically pure element" stuff is coming from for example - an element is by definition pure, so this is redundant verbiage. ArthurPSmith (talk) 20:21, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. It's just I expect the two descriptions (WD and enwiki) to have congruence, and the WD discussion at least for me is pointing out the issue. I want to understand the WD element datamodel more widely too, for future usage. This article here has improved already. -DePiep (talk) 21:54, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A chemical element is a species of atoms that have a given number of protons in their nuclei, including the pure substance consisting only of that species.[1] Unlike chemical compounds, 2405:201:5C20:F805:4973:3AE4:11BD:4555 (talk) 10:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Chemical element. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Could someone please remove some of the templates added in this diff [1], which seem to be questionably relevant to the article. Specifically please could the {{Abiogenesis timeline}} be removed, as this article has little to do with the origin of life, Could the {{Industries}} be removed because I don't see how any of the links in it are relevant, and could the {{Diatomic elements}} template be removed because it duplicates the contents of the article and I don't see why sorting out diatomic elements is relevant here. Thank you. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 12:25, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]