Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents: Difference between revisions

I personally think it is useful information (though I may be biased). My concern with the removal, and why I reverted it, is partly a matter of WP:BRD, and partly a matter of a posting to ANI that will be up momentarily. → ROUX ₪ 05:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I see that now. I'd like to keep this separate. It isn't that the information may not be useful, but I don't see why discussion of a range of coats of arms of different Kennedy individuals or families should be on the surname page rather than on the pages of the relevant people (or indeed a page about the coats of arms, if there are a few relevatn secondary sources to satisfy notability). But this is a bit of a new area for me, so if there are contra arguments, I'd like to hear them. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC) [reply]

Even assuming good faith here, Roux appears to be saying he wants to keep the material just so he can come here. It looks a lot like canvassing, hounding, and a lack of AGF on Roux's part. On Xanderliptak's side, it appears he's just being bold. My suggestion would be to stop this before it gets to look like you're setting the dogs on Xanderliptak. He's removing the images people have fought to get rid of, but now inexplicably are fighting to have restored. Might be time to reassess your own behavior.Malke 2010 (talk) 18:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Um... did you read anything I posted here? Seriously, don't post without reading what is going on. → ROUX ₪ 18:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be an echo in this section, namely someone griping about Xander being "followed". Some editors don't like being watched, and rung up for what they're doing, since they have this notion that they should be able to do whatever they want, unimpeded. They come here and complain that they're being "harassed"... by multiple users. At some point, the possibility might arise that the editor is being followed because he needs to be followed. Hanlon's razor might figure into this. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, this actually makes me somewhat angry. You do not understand a single thing that is going on here. You clearly have not bothered to read a single thing I wrote, and certainly haven't looked at the links I provided. I am not saying 'keep the material so I can come to ANI.' In terms of that specific article it is simply the first one I saw on my watchlist. Then I looked at Xanderliptak's contribs, and saw he has removed every instance of every image he uploaded to Commons. Further, on Commons, he has requested speedy deletion of all his images. (Something he can't do, not for the reason he has given.) Nobody has 'fought' to get rid of [9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39], almost all of which are articles about nobility, for whom coats of arms are a fairly important subject, recording as they do marriages, alliances, elevations (or demotions) in station, etc. The removal here of one of his images from the talk page of WP:WPHV is particularly noteworthy as well.

Xanderliptak is, quite simply, attempting to remove all of his images from use on enwiki, with concomitant attempt at deleting them from Commons. This is a problem that is related to ownership behaviour from over a year ago detailed here and here, which you would know if you had read the links I had initially posted.

In all seriousness, please do not comment when you have demonstrably not familiarized yourself with the details of what is going on. I bear no personal animus towards Xanderliptak, my concern is with widespread disruption arising from his repeated attempts to control the end result of images which he has freely contributed to the project. → ROUX ₪ 18:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has "fought to get rid of" Xander's images. The issue, as Roux states, is that he wants to maintain control of them, and since he can't do so, he's working on getting rid of them. (I'm sure they'll bring him a healthy profit on the black market.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This would be a good place to drop the stick and back away from the dead horse.Malke 2010 (talk) 20:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to advise Mr. Xander to that effect. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:12, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Malke, I tried saying this politely. Apparently you didn't read it. I'll be more blunt: you do not understand what is going on, you have obviously not looked at a single link or diff provided, and your contributions to this discussion are completely and totally unhelpful and off base. Please stop commenting. → ROUX ₪ 23:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Roux, I understand perfectly what is happening here. I don't see Xanderliptak doing anything but being bold in his edits. I don't see anything wrong with his removing the images. If editors want them back, they're free to put them back, or find other images, or they can take the articles off their watchlists. Focus on the edit, not the editor. And chill about it. It's time to let this go. Malke 2010 (talk) 23:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The way I understand it (and Roux, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), this guy is not "being bold", he's trying to assert ownership over his own creations, in defiance of the license rules. And he's been getting irritated because the rule-followers keep impeding him. I never heard of that guy until this past week, but it didn't take long to figure out what he was up to. How do you figure other editors are "free to put them back"? These are designs of family crests or something, which he himself created. So no one else could claim them as their own, and hence they couldn't upload them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you do not, Malke. Xanderliptak is not being WP:BOLD. of course you would know this if you had read the diffs I had provided, including practically identical behaviour from almost a year ago. Your insistence that you understand what is going on is clearly indicating that you have not read the diffs. The edits you have made to this discussion are beyond useless. Until you can indicate that you have actually read the diffs and links provided, I urge anyone else reading this to pay not the slightest bit of attention to anything you have to say on this matter. → ROUX ₪ 23:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)First, it's never wise to assume you know what his motives are. And second, if he created the image and is now removing it, what is the big deal here? If an editor makes an edit to an article, but then comes back and removes the edit and then puts in something else, or decides that the edit wasn't really a good one, who is to say he can't do that? Images come and go on Wikipedia. Nothing here is permanent. A week from now none of you will care about any of this.

Imagining what Xanderliptak's motives are appears to be the central problem here. There's a reason we have this guideline. Try it out in real life and you'll see what I mean. We can always assign motive based on our own prejudices and beliefs, but at the end of the day, we don't really know for certain what anybody's motive is, or is not. This whole thread was started based on an assumption that didn't take into account other things that might be going on. The previous arguments are now old. This new argument should have been addressed first on Xanderliptak's talk page and/or the various article talk pages. Not here. Malke 2010 (talk) 00:11, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

AGF is not a suicide pact. Again you are demonstrating that you have not familiarized yourself with the history. Addressing this problem with Xanderliptak directly would have been less than fruitful--again, if you had familiarized yourself with the history you would know this. Addressing the issue on 30+ talk pages would have been similarly useless. I beg you, stop inserting your uninformed commentary. It only obscures the situation. → ROUX ₪ 00:17, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

History is past. Today is all you have. Forget about it and move on.Malke 2010 (talk) 00:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to suggest that Malke moves on since he seems so spectacularly clueless about this issue. Jon (217.44.188.123 (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 00:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC).[reply]

If you actually read some of the stuff Xander has said recently, you don't have to "imagine" his motives, as he's right out there with it. He was trying to apply the "moral right" principle to his little creations, and he was told repeatedly that it doesn't apply. Having finally apparently gotten that message, he's going through and trying to get them zapped on dubious grounds. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:11, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If a rights holder didn't really understand and intend the implications of a CC licensing for an image, then we have sometimes deleted the image. Gimmetoo (talk) 01:35, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If editors have had issues with that guy for a year, it's probably not that simple. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is, however, not his stated intention. He has stated, variously, that they 'were intended to be quick sketches and I will replace them one by one with better versions' (paraphrase, not his exact words, but very close; of course that still doesn't explain why he is seeking deletion. He could simply upload new versions over the old ones), and 'these images have caused trouble so I may as well remove them until the new versions are ready' (again paraphrase. And ignoring the fact that the images are not the problem, his behaviour is). These are things he has said on Commons, and I can provide diffs if requested, as he has said nothing on enwiki about his motivations. Moving back to the original point of this post: there are severe behavioural issues with Xanderliptak, namely:

• Repeated application of WP:IDHT (visible in every recent dispute/discussion he has taken part in, both here and on Commons
• Repeated allegations against fellow editors and refusal to provide diffs of the alleged behaviour despite repeated requests
• Repeated misrepresentation of tenor, tone, and content of discussions and what other editors have said with, again, refusal to provide diffs backing up what he says despite repeated and unambiguous requests to provide same
• Repeated refusal to provide references backing up what he has stated
• Ownership behaviour of his images (diffs provided above setting the context as an ongoing issue for almost a year, not new)
• I will provide diffs of all the above if asked, I just don't have the energy right now to comb through that many pages.

I don't deny that Xanderliptak has made valuable contributions. Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry is spotty at best, and it is one of those areas where visual cues are practically mandatory for understanding the subject. However, the above issues, none of which are new, are a distinct problem and need to be addressed in totally unambiguous terms. I had proposed an editing restriction for Xanderliptak to address some of those issues; Prodego's premature archiving of the thread prevented discussion that might well have prevented this set of circumstances from occurring.

Several other editors who have bothered to read the history here seem, unless I am mistaken, to agree that there is a problem. A solution needs to be found, please, to prevent further disruption. → ROUX ₪ 02:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, Roux, there is an issue. I thought the dispute about one image was just getting resolved (leaving out three shields) - with an "out" provided on a silver platter - and I was disheartened when the dispute simply shifted to something else. I do think XL's image contributions are extremely valuable, but if XL wants to remove the images, my suggestion is to just let that happen. So long as XL only removes XL's own images and nobody else picks a fight, I suspect XL would eventually restore those or better images and the project will see a net benefit. And if that turns out to be false optimism, the issues get resolved another way. Gimmetoo (talk) 03:00, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have zero faith whatsoever that those images will ever be replaced. My AGF reserves here are fully depleted. Also as a general principle I think it is a bad idea for Wikipedia to indulge the "I'm taking my toys and going home" behaviour when it comes to encyclopedic content. The precedent it sets for disgruntled editors to remove content they have contributed is... bad. → ROUX ₪ 03:20, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have zero faith whatsoever that taking up this many kilobytes with what amounts to "Someone needs to talk to the user, but Roux has a past history with him" is conducive to anyone staying with the project. With regard to the deletion of images, if we're talking about him wanting to make a newer, better version, that's fine; I reverted the diffs linked above because I was under the impression the user was ragequitting over his inability to modify the licensing. If the images are going to be mass-deleted for whatever reason in the future, a bot should unlink them with an explanation. This will avoid confusion and have the added benefit of not annoying people with the articles on their watchlists. Recognizance (talk) 04:09, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The good thing is that Xander's edits were reverted - the images are back in the articles. I think just about all of his speedy deletions were overturned by the admins over on the Commons. It sucks when a contributor throws a hissyfit and spitefully starts destroying all their contributions as some sort of payback - holds their contributions/images hostage. That's where we need admins to step in and set the record straight - that you can't disrupt the project that way. Maybe this thread ought to be marked 'resolved' because really Malke is pointlessly winding Roux up. I think we should just leave this issue be, it's been dealt with. I doubt Xander will pull the same stunt again.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, if Roux is 'wound up' he did it to himself. It was Roux's choice to come here and make this complaint which doesn't need admin action. He could have done nothing, especially as Hamiltonstone didn't even want the image on the page in question. Roux could have waited. There's no emergency on Wikipedia, least of all with the deletion of images. This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. And ignoring the obvious lack of WP:AGF, WP:CANVASS, and WP:HOUND, makes this thread seem like an even bigger hissyfit than anything Xanderliptak has done. Stop hounding the guy. Nobody here likes his images anyway.Malke 2010 (talk) 16:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, look. Three people now have told you that you don't know what you're talking about. I have pointed out repeatedly that you clearly haven't read any of the links or diffs provided. If you had, you would know that this is really not about the single page which Hamiltonstone is involved with, that was merely the first one where I noticed this problem. Could you please just shut up until you know what you're talking about? → ROUX ₪ 16:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do see your points. But what I'm talking about is, you should not have come here as your first move. If you really want to start the process, start an RfC/U. Don't come here with every bit you find. Stop looking at his contributions. You're too involved here. I'm actually very sympathetic to you that you are so upset by this. I saw your request for an unblock and I felt very bad for you. But you're coming here first is not a good move. Do you see any admins here doing anything? Xanderliptak has disengaged on this thread. You should do the same. Everybody should do the same. For now, a good solution might be a self-imposed interaction ban, for say three weeks, etc. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Facepalm. There is no other option for a first move here. Discussion with Xanderliptak is pointless. RFC/U is less than pointless, it's just a delay of a month while more disruption can occur. I looked at his contributions solely because I saw one weird removal and wanted to know what was going on. You really, really don't have a clue what is going on here, and what has been going on for almost a year. Please cease your uninformed commentary. → ROUX ₪ 17:14, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have looked at all your diffs, etc. Believe, me, I know exactly what has been going on. Xanderliptak should stop removing images, and you should take a break from this. If you don't look at his contributions, you won't be upset. Let someone else notice things. And how do you know, maybe your comments have made an impression on him. Now it's time to wait and see.Malke 2010 (talk) 17:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Malke 2010. Xanderliptak has pissed off more than just Roux, and more than just Roux have been restoring all the images he has deleted from articles, declining all the speedies on commons etc. This isn't about two editors arguing, this is about one editor behaving in an out of order way by trying to control the onward disposition of images that they uploaded.Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from an uninvolved party passing through: If other contributors have been pissed off then it would probably be best if they make the complaint and follow up on it. Rightly or wrongly, considering their history, Roux's reporting of Xanderliptak here and forceful argumentation against Xanderliptak after the initial notification can give the impression of hounding. Notice of Xanderliptak's actions has been give to the admins here; a continuing prosecution would seem to be unnecessary. Lambanog (talk) 11:45, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hard to argue with that. Xander certainly has pissed more people off, but it may well be that they have concluded that the horse is already dead. Perhaps it's time to close up here. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fine. The next time that Xanderliptak pulls something like this--and the next, and the next--I will bring up this thread and the last one, and remind you lot that you had a chance to stop the disruption but ignored it. This editor has attacked others, been rabidly dishonest about others, attempted to own content, been disruptive, etc etc etc, with total impunity. I suggest that admins familiarise themselves with the concept of 'enabling.' → ROUX ₪ 21:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've been trying to improve Famine in India to a GA level article for the last few weeks. I am no longer able to assume good faith in User:Jamesinderbyshire who is being disruptive per my understanding of policies. I am asking experienced admins to evaluate the matter and enforce an article-space/talk-space topic ban on Jamesinderbyshire.

User:Jamesinderbyshire provided a ficticious reference by misquoting tow authors through an intricate setup of fake links/snippet view from Google books. He typed out the following (fake) quote from page 504 of the book[40]:

The quote, if true, would have pretty much put an end to the dispute with Jamesinderbyshire's POV prevailing (my claim was that the late 19th century period of 1875-1900 caused the maximum famine deaths which is a totally different period from the Bengal famine of 1943). I had to spend significant amount to my Wikipedia time to decipher Jamesinderbyshire's intricate setup of book names, authors and bad links to look for the correct books and locate the quote which reads like this:[41]

After pointing out this fallacy, Jamesinderbyshire apologized by claiming it was a mistake but then quickly went back to his pattern of indulging in trolling or original research on a different subtopic of the same article. [42] These are classic symptoms of gaming the system as the essay on fictitious references points out. The same essays states about fictitious references:

• "It is a most serious offense because it compromises the integrity of Wikipedia"
• "Fictitious references are typically those used to support a hoax, original research, essays or opinion passed off as neutral facts"

Of these, Jamesinderbyshire has indulged in two - original research and essays or opinion as has already been pointed out me and another user to Jamesinderbyshire.[43] [44]

The Famine codes and Malnutrition section of the talk page have the relevant details. Zuggernaut (talk) 21:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I made a mistake in a quote and immediately on having it drawn to my attention corrected and apologised for it. I also expressed an opinion in a talk page about Indian government expenditure. Other editors have also critiqued Zuggernaut's approach to editing the article at Talk:Famine in India. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 22:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also see the very considered comments by a number of editors at User talk:Zuggernaut in the British Empire section (this row built up originally from an ongoing dispute between Zuggernaut and multiple editors at British Empire) calling on him to restrain himself, explaining that he is misunderstanding POV and in particular one very considered statement there from User:Pfly [45]saying "while I can understand the frustration you might feel when faced with a team of Britons defending the BE page, I have to say your methods have not exactly lent themselves to sympathy from people like me". Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 22:15, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You typed out content that was blatantly inaccurate, put quotes around it and used it to support your position. I assumed good faith, you said sorry for the fictitious reference and then continued on with similar behavior. Your strategy is a classic example of someone who is trying to game the system to push your own POV. Zuggernaut (talk) 22:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to engage further in silly point-scoring. I apologised for the mistake and I did bot repeat it - the allegation you make about the second item is unrelated to the first. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 22:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a real pattern of wrongdoing here? One misquote is not a pattern of POV-pushing, and the only other diffs you provide seem, on the face of it, to be fairly harmless. I'm certainly not seeing enough evidence to suggest any sanctions of Jamesinderbyshire here. I've not really looked into the behaviour of Zuggernaut himself as yet. ~ mazca ^talk 23:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is a pattern. On a previous occasion he demonstrated similar behavior when he cited a page number in a book and provided a link which did show some of the pages before and after the page in question but not the actual page being used to strengthen his case. When I looked up the actual page elsewhere, I found that the data was irrelevant to the topic being discussed. [46] Nonetheless, doesn't WP:FAKE talk about a "zero-tolerance policy" for such behavior. Zuggernaut (talk) 00:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The misquote might be passed over except that Jamesinderbyshire went on to use the misquoted form specifically to support his argument. In my judgement that's a pretty serious error, and an appropriate response to having it pointed out would be for Jamesinderbyshire to withdraw from this particular discussion. Looie496 (talk) 00:53, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did he use the misquote to support his argument after it was brought to his attention that the quote was in error? If not, then we should AGF and assume this was a mistake. --RegentsPark (talk) 03:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm prepared to AGF and assume it was a mistake, but to mistakenly misstate a quote in exactly the way needed to support one's position, where a correct quote would not have supported it at all, is such an appalling mistake that I would want to hide my head in shame if I did it. Looie496 (talk) 03:40, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps. But as Larry Ubell says on the Leonard Lopate show, he who doesn't make mistakes is probably not doing anything. Best to AGF without passing judgement. --RegentsPark (talk) 03:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I came here after assuming good faith as I mentioned in an earlier response. Jamesinderbyshire has behaved in a similar manner just a day or two prior to this instance (page 501 of a different book was cited, the provided link had pages 500, 502 but no 501. When I looked up page 501 elsewhere, content was irrelevant to the argument). Maybye this is a case of WP:Competence? Whatever it is, it's caused plenty of disruption because I have to fight hard and spend significant amount of time on what is a very well known statistic. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We have one minor mistake corrected quickly. This should never come to ANI, but its pretty typical of this user who has both canvassed and forum shopped before on a subject where his edits pursue a clear Indian Nationalist agenda. This is a clear attempt to bully an editor with a sound edit history over multiple articles (including contentious ones) away from the proposers pet subject. If every editor here who made a mistake was blocked no one would be left --Snowded ^TALK 05:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This ANI is not about my behavior. It's about Jamesinderbyshire's attempts to use fictitious references by gaming the system to have his POV/OR prevail. Nonetheless, it's best to check a persons logs/history for the allegations that User:Snowded, Jamesinderbyshire's collaborator is making. Zuggernaut (talk) 17:18, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you bring something to ANI then your behaviour is subject to review. In this comment you are now alleging a conspiracy! I suggest you withdraw this one and start to behave collaboratively with other editors and stop forum shopping. --Snowded ^TALK 18:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Looie496, I can only say, yes, I was very embarassed - I know it looks like it might have been deliberate, but it really wasn't - I wasn't pasting a source from a Google Books entry, I was manually typing in late at night mytime from a book and I also had in my mind to say something about comparison with the 19th Century figures - the two got conflated and I completed the quote incorrectly. As I said, I did immediately apologise and revert this edit as soon as it was brought to my attention. I do understand how this would look and will try very hard not to make that error again. On Zuggernaut's second point about me behaving "in a similar matter" previously, this is simply incorrect. The reference he refers to is this [47] which does appear on page 501 in the Cambridge Economic History of India Volume 2, it's just that the quick Google Books search does not list page 501 - you have to click page 500 and then follow it down. The table on that page was relevant as it shows overall death statistics in India during the period in debate. Zuggernaut got agitated that I had claimed this covered "famine deaths" and not "general mortality", something I did not claim. I simply raised it as a discussion point and it has been rather unfortunately seized upon as evidence of some kind of malfeasance on my part, which is both unfair and untrue. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 10:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone who clicks the link in the paragraph above will see that page 501 does not appear in the preview. I get a clear message saying "Page 501 is not part of this book preview." I had to hunt down this book elsewhere, look up page 501 to discover that the page had detailed tables completely irrelevant to our topic as any discerning reader conversant with the article will be able to tell. Sadly this is a pattern with Jamesinderbyshire. He is trying to game the system in order to come up with data that supports his OR or POV. As the WP:FAKE essay points out, these are classic symptoms of someone trying to game the system. Zuggernaut (talk) 17:18, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're just a little unclear as to how Google Books works - the reference is to page 501, which does I assure you exist, which does have the table of data I accurately referred to. In fact, the only one attempting to Game here is you Zuggernaut, as you are attempting to gain uncontrolled access to the article by using ANI to hopefully drive editors off who produce sources you don't like. Note that other editors are busy reverting your latest round of edits to the article because, like me, they feel put out by your attitude. All very ironic because on Talk:British Empire, the original source of all this disgruntlement on your part, I actually tried to take your side and get some attention to the views you were proposing for content in the article; other editors there were so annoyed with your conduct that they wouldn't listen to you. Now you've added another annoyed editor to your growing collection. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:30, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In this edit Jamesinderbyshire claims that this source provides a "table of death rates according to a range of academic sources for India between 1871 and 1950." Well, p. 502 of that source does provide such a table. Jamesinderbyshire, hang your head in shame - 501 does not equal 502. Zuggernaut, Jamesinderbyshire made a mistake with one source and has acknowledged it. The only mistake with the second source seems to be that Jamesinderbyshire said 501 instead of 502. Unless I'm missing something I think your claims of WP:GAME and WP:FAKE are completely out of line. TFOWR 17:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and Jamesinderbyshire - you said the data goes up to 1950. It actually goes up to 1951. I'll let you off seeing it's the weekend, but do please pay attention. ;-) TFOWR 17:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks TFOWR, I am honestly trying, and I am honestly also quite confused now. When you go to that book, do you not see the page number as "501" on the page where the table is? I will take another look - perhaps it goes over several pages. As for the end date, yes, I stand corrected - it is 1950! Mistake. Cough. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:38, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, 'fraid not! What I'm seeing is at the top of page 502: "Table 5.12 Estimates of Expectation of Life at Birth by Sex, Indian sub-continent, 1871-1951". The bottom of page 500 is text and a couple of footnotes, and page 501 "is not part of this book preview". I wouldn't worry unduly: my chastisement was very definitely tongue-in-cheek. TFOWR 19:43, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I realised, thanks. Strange though - I see a large table on Google Books at page 501, entitled Table 5.11, Death Rate, Infant Mortality Rate in Indian Sub-continent, Various Sources, 1871-1951. The table is sideways on, eg, Landscape Mode. It's quite odd this - do people see Google Books differently? I assure you I am seeing that, I wonder if anyone else who is casually reading this can say if they are? Thanks. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, definitely don't get it. I can tell you, based on the tables I can see, that Table 5.11 is either on page 499 or page 501. I'm going to WP:AGF here and assume you're not trying to mislead me, and it really isn't on page 499 ;-) TFOWR 19:53, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's more a case of assuming sanity I think - hopefully I am still in one piece and when I see "Page 501" it really exists and not just in my head! My hold on reality is starting to depend on confirmation from other editors in talk pages... Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:55, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, wait a moment. The table in this book is in portrait, not in landscape, and on a page that has 502 printed on the page top and bottom. Clearly TFOWR is looking at table 5.12 and James is looking at Table 5.11, although I can't figure out how he can see it.Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - Jamesinderbyshire maintains that there's a mystical "page 501" between pages 500 and 502, and an equally mystical "Table 5.11" somewhere between "Table 5.10" and "Table 5.12". ;-) TFOWR 15:51, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Google Books presents things differently to different people in different parts of the world. (I had firsthand experience of this in an AFD discussion, several years ago; and I've seen the issue come up many times in the years since.) There are many reasons behind this. Officially, Google Books tries to respect different countries' copyright requirements. But there are almost certainly other factors at work, including things like incomplete database replication. Hence two maxims to remember:

• Don't ever just point to a Google Books search results page. What you see will not be what other people see. They won't necessarily see the results in the same order as you. They won't even necessarily see all of the same books as you.
• Don't use bare Google Books external hyperlinks as citations. Give a proper citation, with the title, author, publisher, year of publication, and page number. Supply the ISBN, where available, so that people can follow the Wikipedia:Booksources hyperlink to a book source of their choice. (For discussion pages, I personally use a brief ISBN+page number format. But for articles, always a full citation and never a Google Books hyperlink.)

Uncle G (talk) 08:46, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the explanation Uncle G, I didn't know that Google Books result vary to different user groups like that - I've not seen them much used in actual sourcing but they are pretty widely deployed during talk page discussions, so it's important to know about this and I will keep it in mind. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 10:12, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One feels there must be a guideline or help page somewhere that this advice gets added to - I always use cite book templates for Google books, but I was unaware that it showed different pages in different locations. Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:17, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New for me as well. That said this is now a content issue. Unless someone wants to look into Zuggernaut's behaviour in running to ANI about one mistake quickly corrected I'd suggest that this is closed off and discussion continues on the talk page of the article itself. --Snowded ^TALK 12:40, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Other than a general suggestion to zuggernaut that using ANI as a weapon in editorial battles is perhaps not the best of ideas, I'd say this is a dead horse that has no further need or desire to be flogged. --RegentsPark (talk) 15:54, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Zug seems to have slunk off. Unless James wants to make something of it, I suggest we mark this as resolved. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:43, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No argument here. Thanks for the various points of advice and will try to take them all on board. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:17, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Chase me dinosaurs, I'm an insect

While reading the Victoria, Crown Princess of Sweden article, I came across an odd user name, User:Princess Mary of Sweden. There I found a confession on the Princess' user page that Baseball Bugs, The Transhumanist, and Princess Mary of Sweden are socks. This is disruptive. I recommend investigation and then blockage of all the sock accounts. The main one is the Transhumanist, so that one can stay. This is because the Transhumanist edits but Bugs tries to butt into dramatic arguments on ANI and AN and Princess Mary sounds too much like real royalty (just like if someone were named Gregory W. Bush or Bernald H. Obama). Conclusion: shut down all the accounts except the main The Transhumanist

If I am wrong, sorry, but I don't think so. I'm just reporting what I saw. Let's have a checkuser work on this. I don't know how to submit a checkuser so either someone else do it or let the guilty get off scot free. Chase me dinosaurs, I'm an insect (talk) 02:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, but all the User:Princess Mary of Sweden page says is:

I am a permitted use of an alternate account.

It names no names and nothing about those other ones links them to alternate accounts.

Where are you getting this from?

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scroll to the bottom. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 03:11, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I notified Bugs, as Chase me failed to do so. Grsz¹¹ 03:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This screams out "Joe-job". SPI on the account and on the reporting account here? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ron in looking at the edit histories I am not sure what you want us to scroll to the bottom of. As to "Chase me", no edits for 15 months and then this comes up. It feels like a little unneeded wikimelodrama is about to ensue. MarnetteD | Talk 03:20, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First line is I am a permitted use of an alternate account.. This is followed by 89 Crlf's, a leading space and the text My main accounts are Baseball Bugs and The Transhumanist. This is a secret. Do not tell anyone or "out" me.. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 03:52, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This all screams "sockpuppet of banned user" to me. Access Denied ^{[FATAL ERROR]} 03:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone up for a bet that Chase me dinosaurs, I'm an insect == Princess Mary of Sweden? I'm in for a nickel. Looie496 (talk) 03:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Who knows. There's been more socking in the last week than in the past 6 months combined. Access Denied ^{[FATAL ERROR]} 03:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like someone has been holding a 15 month grudge. Let's be gone with this guy. Grsz¹¹ 03:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. Not that this is definitive, but Grundle's back in active operation, and has a thing about Obama ... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(lotsa ec)This[48] edit, both in its style and its placement, looks a lot like User:ChildofMidnight. Then again it could be Grundle fucking around, or who knows who else. PhGustaf (talk) 03:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone have any objections to indef'ing them both for disruption or trolling? This is, frankly, ridiculous. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:40, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support indef block for both, with a checkuser and possible ban (if not already banned as Grundle) Access Denied ^{[FATAL ERROR]} 03:57, 16 October 2010 (UTC) I don't know much about CoM except that he's very fond of harassing Bugs, and these accounts seem to fit that description.[reply]

CoM is fond of listing enemies, calling them "thugs" or the like, and running to Jimbo. Grundle does none of these. But it could of course be someone else. PhGustaf (talk) 04:24, 16 October 2010 (UTC) [reply]

• • What's been done with User:Princess Mary of Sweden that warrants revoking editing privileges? The account has six edits in total. Uncle G (talk) 03:43, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have serious doubts that the claims made that User:Princess Mary of Sweden is run by Baseball Bugs and/or The Transhumanist. The very fact that it is impersonating other users in this manner is egregiously disruptive, and also clear evidence that it is a sock account of somebody, likely someone who has a grudge against Bugs and Transhumanist. Starting an account for the sole pupose of falsely claiming that other users are operating it is beyond disruptive. Blocking it seems a good idea. A checkuser should also check for connections or socks. Furthermore, the reporting account looks like an impersonation account to harrass User:Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry. --Jayron32 03:49, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

SPI filed. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am willing to drop this. I only filed this report because of what I saw. They say I haven't edit. That's darn right, I just read Wikipedia now.

If you do file a SPI, this should include all parties and not conveniently leaving out some. All, Princess, Transhumanist, Bugs, should be included.

This also shows how manipulative Wikipedians can be. You call me Grundle. I am not Grundle. But that is a slimey and easy way to get rid of anyone you hate. I hate user X, call him Grundle. I hate user y, call him Grundle. I am losing a discussion, call the other side either a sock or Grundle. The next person who uses this tactic should be banned. This should be the new Wikipedia way.Chase me dinosaurs, I'm an insect (talk) 04:44, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nice rant... --Jayron32 04:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All we're saying is that Grundle has been extremely active lately, and there is a slight possibility that you are a Grundle sock. Understand now? Access Denied ^{[FATAL ERROR]} 04:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actual new users getting flustered is not suprising; what is annoying is sockpuppeteers who repeatedly come back here despite the fact that they get picked up reliably and blocked again, and get vocal about it each time.

You'd think they'd find somewhere else to hang out. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with CoM; is this one of his standard rants? Access Denied ^{[FATAL ERROR]} 05:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure, but if you check his edit history prior to todays little glitch, there's stuff going on at the Obama articles which bear his hallmarks. The link above that PhGustaf linked is very CoM-like. CoM and Grundle tended to edit from the same perspective, but where Grundle is snarky and sardonic when under a perceived threat, CoM tended to get angry and/or defensive. Check out User_talk:Jayron32/Archive11#Gerald_Walpin which shows CoM descending into his angry/defensive stance. There's similarities in the tone of his comments there with those of Chase Me... here. Additionally, that discussion shows some of the grudge that CoM shows towards Baseball Bugs. You can find similar conflicts with Transhumanist too, I'd imagine. --Jayron32 05:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could Grundle and ChildofMidnight be the same person operating two complex sockfarms? Access Denied ^{[FATAL ERROR]} 05:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Only under the "anything is possible" criteria. But seriously, no. They are distinct people, I have absolutely no doubt about that. --Jayron32 05:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They would have to be exceptionally careful if that were the case. No similar IP addresses, styles of editing, etc, and plus the more people that know about something, the harder it is to keep it a secret, so the editor behind it couldn't even tell his closest ally without a significant amount of risk involved. Overall, kinda maybe sorta possible, but highly unlikely. Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 05:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I ran wikichecker on Grundle2600 and CoM; their day of week and time of day patterns are fairly similar but nothing to warrant suspicion AFAIK. Access Denied ^{[FATAL ERROR]} 05:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)Almost certainly not. In the Obama wars a year or two ago, they pushed similar POVs, but in entirely different styles. For one thing, Grundle has never been mean, but mean is CoM's middle name. The passage quoted by AD above is odd: It has a CoM tenor to it, but seems less literate than I'd expect. I have notified CoM of this discussion. PhGustaf (talk) 05:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed my resolved tag per objection. I can't believe you guys are wasting so much effort fucking around with this blatant and obvious troll. I've indeffed him/her. Toddst1 (talk) 06:00, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

meh. I'm married and its Friday night. Got nothing better to do. --Jayron32 06:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. That's funny. I should send you my Margarita recipe. Toddst1 (talk) 06:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Out of tequila right now. Had a few cans of Yeungling, so that's helping a bit. --Jayron32 06:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm married, not out of Tequila, and it's Friday night. We've got much better things to do. But I'm stuck supporting a remote site IT change going on in the change window tonight. So nothing better happening, and no margarita. Yet.

Yet. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My wife's parents are visiting from out of town. So my better thing to do isn't getting done... ;) --Jayron32 06:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And I'm left scowling at the thought I can't enjoy one for another ~3 years. The drinking age in the US fails. Oh well, I've still got energy. =) Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 06:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I just saw the notice a little bit ago. First, I want to mention that while my interaction ban with CoM is still in place, I'm now allowed to comment for administrative purposes, so here goes: I doubt very much that either CoM or Grundle are behind the OP here. The one place where someone asked "does this look like CoM", I would say, No, it doesn't. Also, those two may have done some socking, but impostoring is not their style. I can think of several users who've done impostoring and dragged my name into it, but as I've learned, it's best to not spend very much time trying to figure out who's doing the socking, because that's precisely what they want - so just block the current offender and any "sleeper" accounts and be done with it. Although if a familiar pattern emerges, it doesn't hurt to look into it further. The fact that the OP is using an obvious play on Chase Me Ladies (as pointed out earlier) tells you something right there. What this actually reminds me of most starkly is the guy from summer 2009 (never identified) who impostored the indef'd user Axmann8 by using obvious plays on his name and editing the same articles that Axmann8 had worked on - mostly to do with Obama and other political matters. His sole purpose was to try to move Axmann8 from indef'd to banned, and he almost got away with it until somebody figured out what was going on. It's either that guy here, or someone else imitating that guy (an impostor of an impostor). If an SPI finds him, that would be good. He's been a minor thorn in my side and others' for some time now. The pattern in this case matches that of summer 2009, in that the OP might be trying to convince people he's CoM and/or Grundle, for the purpose of tricking the community into permanently banning one or both of them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

CoM's ban has been "reset" several times due to socking so it's not unreasonable to suspect that some of his "enemies" might try to impersonate him in this way so the clock on his ban keeps getting restarted. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 14:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: For what it's worth, I think CMDIAI isn't a problem user at all. He's never harassed me, and I personally have never encountered any problems with him, he's been courteous and polite. I don't support an SPI or anything similar on him; I'm not sure one is warranted? Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 13:20, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Baseball Bugs is looking into this matter. It should be resolved shortly with his help. IESNEC (talk) 15:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here he comes to save the day. PhGustaf (talk) 16:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now he's impostoring an impostor of the indef'd user called CENSEI. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:42, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this is User:Pickbothmanlol? This fits his modus operandi (Impersonation usernames, trolling AN/I). —Jeremy ^{(v^_^v PC/SP is a show-trial!)} 02:12, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note:Move from AIV per admin request:

• 63.118.16.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) range block needs to be reinstated. The IP range has been blocked twice for BLP policy violations and insertion of ethnic/descent categories to biographies. Previous ANI discusions here and here Original blocking admin is no longer active, so I'm making the range block request here. --Jezebel'sPonyo
  •  Done blocked this one IP for 1 year. This was not of the same range as the ANI thread indicated before, do you know what the prior rangeblock was, and do you have evidence that he is operating from that range now? --Jayron32 00:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was actually another editor who supplied the difs on my talk page, I just brought the issue here for follow-up. Reviewing the difs again it's apparent the now blocked IP is not related to the previous ANI complaints. He is however returning to the same behaviour that he has been blocked for twice previously, so thank you for giving him the year off. --Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 15:27, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Background

User Kubura (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a history of conflict with other editors over articles relating to Croatia. See his contribs. On 4 October I made two reversions of pending changes to previously accepted versions of Croatian language: [49] and [50]. As there appeared to be an edit war starting, I asked in the edit summaries for discussions of changes to take place on the article's talk page to attempt to reach some consensus. As the user, Jack Sparrow 3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and some Croatian IPs had continuously made the same edit, I asked for page protection [51].

Hounding

Kubura arrived at my talk page two days later to obviously make a WP:POINT and posted a 3RR warning [52] to which I responded explaining that he was in error and that my only involvement was as a reviewer, that he should feel free to either strike out the warning or recognise his error or not but that either way he should at least check contribution histories before lashing out and issuing warnings out of some vendetta. He chose to do neither, and in his response he addressed another user who had commented, and used a phrase that does not pop up often (see Sock puppetry below) "don't etiquette the opponent as nationalists."

I removed the warning myself two days later only for Kubura to return a further two days later and reinstate it with the summary "No censorship. You appeared on edit warring on 4 Oct 2010 with 2 reverts in 28 minutes, without explanation on the talkpage." A page watcher saw the reinstatement and removed it here [53]. Getting thoroughly peeved with this WP:HOUNDING I asked Kubura to stop posting irrelevant warnings on my talk page. Kubura responded that as far as he was concerned I was part of a tag team pushing POV on the article. I attempted again to impress upon Kubura that he was wrong not to AGF my 2 reversions of 4 October, that I was not part of a tag team or anti-Croatian conspiracy and that I was fed up to the eyeballs with his hounding. He then repeated his tag team allegation to an admin, stating that I was gaming the system: [54].

His next step in his campaign of harassment was to complain about me at WP:WQA here: [55]. This was in the midst of another rampage of WP:POINT warnings, where he issued notices of WP:ARBMAC to everyone who he disagreed with, and then posted to another user a hint to do his dirty work for him in reporting User:Kwamikagami to WP:ANI here: [56] as he could hardly go there himself due to unclean hands.

Sock puppetry, disruptive editing and personal attacks

Kubura has since made no logged in edits, however the campaign of disruptive editing and hounding has been continued by Croatian IPs: [57], [58], [59] including the same allegation of censorship directed at me that Kubura used, [60], [61] demonstrating an understanding of wiki editing, [62]. The IP focuses his attacks on me (for censorship), and Kubura's two other favourite targets, Kwamikagami and User:Ivan Štambuk. He specifically cites Kwamikagami's WP:INVOLVED investigation, and another subject close to Kubura's heart, Ivan's "insults." Another Croatian IP, 83.131.95.222 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) repeated the same arguments used by Kubura, made personal attacks calling other editors "liars", and trotted out the same phrases including the accusation that people were "ettiqueted as Croatian nationalist," an unusual turn of phrase used by Kubura.

I call WP:DUCK.

Relief

In view of the above, I am raising these matters for the attention of others, and request that you consider if any action should be taken against Kubura. Personally, I believe he should be blocked indefinitely, but I leave the conclusions to be drawn by, and any outcome decided, to my peers. Keristrasza (talk) 11:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Keristrasza's evaluation of the situation with User:Kubura. Keristrasza has been totally uninvolved with the discussions at Talk:Croatian language, but Kubura dragged him/her in nonetheless with ridiculous accusations. Kubura's hounding goes beyond just Keristrasza as well. He/she actively sought out someone who has a past history of reporting User:Kwamikagami for admin issues. This research turned up User:Neutralhomer, and Kubura posted this on his/her talk page. Neutralhomer then trotted over to WP:AN/I and used Kubura's information to initiate an AN/I complaint against Kwamikagami (a complaint which led nowhere). Kubura has contributed nothing to the discussion at Talk:Croatian language and has been disruptive on the Talk pages of those who oppose his/her POV. --Taivo (talk) 13:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This thread was archived for being over 24 hours old. Is this the wrong noticeboard, and if so to which one should I move it? Covering as it does vandalism, sock puppetry, and arbcom rulings, I am unsure which would be the most suitable Keristrasza (talk) 15:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It would appear that no one cared to act on your complaint. Jclemens (talk) 03:46, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In other words, a green light for him to just carry on regardless. Oh well, c'est la vie. Keristrasza (talk) 13:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A less than a month old account that originally claimed to be a WP:CLEANSTART case and still has no obvious link to the user's previous identity has just moved Climate change denial to Criticism of Climate Change (yes, complete with the wrong capitalisation) without any prior discussion. To avoid a move war, can an uninvolved admin please move back so that a discussion at WP:RM can be started cleanly. Thank you. Hans Adler 06:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done and move protection enabled. Toddst1 (talk) 06:56, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just for clarity, can you or someone provide a diff to the account's claim of cleanstart? Cheers, Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

da diff Toddst1 (talk) 07:03, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See new section below, which I have been preparing since I started this report. Off to a lecture now. Hans Adler 07:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, and I was just thinking I'd seen this user's editing style before.... Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problem... See here**Terra Novus's Diff**..I will stop editing this article if it really is such a issue due to me being a recent WP:CLEANSTART, but I hope that the more experienced editors involved will fix this article's WP:NPOV issues...--Novus Orator 07:07, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As a relevant aside, I'm about to close the Climate Change ArbCom case (once I have breakfast) and will be posting the details later today. Dougweller (talk) 07:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

About the user

After some additional research, here is some further reading:

• WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive638#Edit warring on Cryptozoology articles – 13-15 September, ANI discusses what to do with the disruption caused by the Gniniv in cryptozoology area
• Gniniv claims to retire (15 September)
• First edit by Terra Novus claims clean start (18 September)
• WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Terra Novus/Archive – 28 September, user asks for CU to clear them from suspected connection with FellGleaming
• User talk:Carcharoth#Confirmation – 1 October; user goes to an arbitrator's talk page for rubber stamping of their "clean start" after it came out that they had not notified anyone after disappearing while community action against them was discussed
• WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive642#User:Gniniv / User:Terra Novus / "Novus Orator" – 4 October ANI discussion
• Undiscussed highly contentious move in climate change area
• Extreme POV editing in climate change area

This seems to be a competence problem rather than bad faith, but something needs to be done. Hans Adler 07:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If certain types of editing are causing similar issues in other topics, then a topic ban is unlikely to do much good. Unless the Community is willing to put the user on probation (see Wikipedia:Editing restrictions for examples), or a mentorship thing (which is a timesink), I'm not sure anything short of a ban or indef block would be able to address such a situation. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:34, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would encourage this editor to take this opportunity to completely leave all controversial topics, or at least to return to his initial account. To Terra Novus, if you continue having problems like this with the new account, I think you'll quickly be banned, since you will be taking too much community time when people have to figure out what you're up to. If you want to keep trying to improve controversial topics, and you want a fair hearing, you should go back to your other account. Really, I would recommend getting out of contentious topics altogether, since candidly, you don't show a sensitivity to the types of things that will get you in trouble across the board. But for maximum leeway you should surely go back to your first account. Only if you are extremely confident that you can stay out of all controversial topics altogether with this account, as well as any areas in which you've previously edited, is there any remotely plausible chance that you will not be sanctioned under this new account, at least in my opinion. Mackan79 (talk) 07:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CLEANSTART is quite clear in its statement that editors who decide to place {{retired}} on their original account and create a new account should not return to edit the articles/subjects that they previously edited as it could lead to WP:SOCK issues. If the intent was to simply keep editing the same way, one cannot claim cleanstart. One can hold an WP:Alternate account for specific purposes, but at this point, the new account does not meet them. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are absolutely right, and as I said above I have stopped editing Climate Change articles. If any one will take the time to look at my edit history as Terra Novus (After my cleanstart), they will see that I have adhered to the noncontentious topics policy in the articles I have chosen to edit. This was just a ignorant misstep on my part into a new subject that was too contentious. As I acted in good faith (and, to be honest, in ignorance of the move request policy) I hope that the community will understand my full adherence to Wikipedia's principles.--Novus Orator 04:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Other recent edits

I've taken the time Terra Novus suggests, to review his edits, and I'm sorry to say that I can't agree that he's stuck to non-contentious topics or edited in a responsible manner within them:

• In this edit to the Pro-life article we get blatant misrepresentation of the cited source, which says, verbatim: "Traditional Jewish teachings sanction abortion as a means of safeguarding the life and well-being of a mother. While the Reform, Reconstructionist and Conservative movements openly advocate for the right to a safe and accessible abortion, the Orthodox movement is less unified on the issue."

• In this edit to the Green Party article we get the Green Party represented as "Socialism", via a sidebar, with no edit summary and no use of the talk page.

• In the Swedish welfare article we get drive-by POV tagging with no edit summary and no use of the talk page.

• In this edit to the Solid South political article more drive-by tagging, with an edit summary this time but still no use of the talk page.

• Our article on Race initially had this sentence that accurately summarized its four sources,

This new science has led many mainstream evolutionary scientists in anthropology and biology to question the very validity of race as a scientific concept describing an objectively real phenomenon.¹²³⁴

Then Terra Novus came along and first gave us this remarkable passage,

After the rise of the New Left amongst academia, a modified population genetics reflected a new understanding of the sources of phenotypic variation. Pressure from demographic groups in society has led many mainstream evolutionary scientists in anthropology and biology to question the very validity of race as a scientific concept describing an objectively real phenomenon, although, ironically, they were the ones who historically popularized the concept. (See also Political Correctness).¹²³⁴

and then eventually gave us this sentence, which cites the same four refs but grossly misrepresents their meaning:

This new thought has lead most modern scientists in anthropology and biology to totally discount the validity of naturalistic racism.¹²³⁴

• In this edit to the article on Messianic Judaism we get argumentative, pro-Christian tags inserted into a simple statement taken directly from its cited source on what Jews believe about Jesus.

• In this John Birch Society edit we get a change from the correct full statement,

The Southern Poverty Law Center, lists the society as a "Patriot' Group". Its definition of patriot groups includes: "Generally, Patriot groups define themselves as opposed to the 'New World Order' or advocate or adhere to extreme antigovernment doctrines".

to this truncated one,

The Southern Poverty Law Center, lists the society as a "Patriot' Group". Its definition of patriot groups includes: "Generally, Patriot groups define themselves as opposed to the 'New World Order'.

The SPLC cited reference did indeed include the phrase "or advocate or adhere to extreme antigovernment doctrines."

I appreciate and value Terra Novus' contributions to space vehicle articles, volcano articles, and similarly non-controversial articles. I also imagine he believes he's doing the right thing by making these kinds of changes. But it's my clear impression from these and other edits that he's so agenda-driven that he will purposely distort controversial articles to match his political and religious beliefs without respect for the sources they cite. He doesn't seem to be able subordinate his beliefs to the policies we're all required to abide by in order to contribute here. I have no idea what the best remedy for this problem might be, but I know it needs one. This pattern cannot be allowed to continue.  – OhioStandard (talk) 16:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the impressive presentation. Since this came after a claimed clean start (which was very ill-advised but presumably in good faith), I guess the best way forward would be a mentorship, possibly in combination with a topic ban for contentious topics and contentious edits, and an understanding that once there is a mentor available the user can no longer claim to have been ignorant about an edit's controversial nature. Hans Adler 17:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will be happy to accept the advice and help of a more experienced user...If anyone is willing to give me comments and correction as I work on becoming less biased that would be much appreciated...--Novus Orator 03:44, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A start would be to remove the statement "Please join me in helping lower WP:Systematic bias on Wikipedia. " from your user page. I hadn't looked at your contributions recently and hadn't realised the extent of the continuing problem. You also need to make it clear that you are not going to continue what I can only call a campaign and avoid any articles that you would believe would fall into the scope of such a campaign, as you don't appear to be able to "subordinate our beliefs to the policies we're all required to abide by in order to contribute here." I'd definitely support a topic ban for contentious topics and contentious edits. Dougweller (talk) 04:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think Hans Adler is being a bit generous here. Terra Novus is presumably intelligent enough to figure out when his edits are to an area that has a political or religious controversy attached to it (race, abortion etc etc). He knows he has strong views in some areas - I don't think those are going to get any less strong. Ergo, I don't see that a mentor to 'make him aware of an edit's controversial nature' is necessary at all. Every edit that people are complaining about, Terra Novus seems to hold the view that things are being 'distorted' by political pressure or bias. Therefore, if he ever feels it necessary to make an edit that 'corrects' this 'distortion', he needs to raise it on the talk page first. The same should be true of any editor - they shouldn't just be barging into an article, changing content on the grounds of 'religious bias', 'political correctness' or whatever. I don't think TN needs a mentor, and I don't think his own views are going to change substantially. He just needs to follow the rules - if you think something needs changing because of your views on the subject, get into a discussion.Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:40, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was making an assumption on Novus Orator's age that may or may not be correct and probably doesn't need further discussion. Also most people have a lot more exposure to demagogy than to rational arguments, and many editors seem to believe that everything is about opinion and feelings (probably reflecting the state of the US popular media) – so Wikipedia's norms take some getting used to. If nobody volunteers as a mentor, my proposal is moot anyway. In any case I support an indefinite (not infinite) topic ban for all contentious areas and all contentious edits to other areas. Hans Adler 12:02, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to the SPLC definition of "Patriot groups" it is possible that the definition, in itself, as it covers a large range of groups and motivations, might be misconstrued by some readers with regard to the infamous Birch society, with an thought that all of the ascribed factors are thus applicable to that group. To that extent, the attempt at truncation is likely defensible. Collect (talk) 14:20, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not without a source that says that the SPLC only applies those specific elements of the category to the JBS it ain't. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:12, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As OhioStandard rightly points out, much of the sourcing in TN's edits does not stand up to scrutiny. Here is another example from today in interracial marriage: [63]. The original content was unsourced, but the source provided by TN was no better (the website of an interracial dating agency). On Heim theory, there is no reliable secondary mainstream source available that describes this theory as an "emerging theory". After TN's edits to the lede,[64] ("trimming"), it is not apparent to the reader that this is a fringe theory, not currently within mainstream physics. These were two random examples. Mathsci (talk) 18:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, the dating agency link was already there as a URL - Terra Novus just turned it into a cite template footnote. Horrible ref, which I've removed now. Rd232 ^talk 19:12, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ledenierhomme (talk · contribs) was recently blocked for one week following the repeated insertion of negative material about a living person on the article Jonathan Cook. The user then evaded the block as an IP and the block was reset (see here). After repeatedly removing the block notice and declined unblock requests, the user's talk page access was revoked. Since the block expired, the user has returned to continue with the same problematic behavior. His very first edit, after removing the block notice and unblock requests, was to reinsert the very same material he was blocked for reverting on the Jonathan Cook article (here). The user then hounded my contributions, reverting my edits at two unrelated articles, both times reintroducing problematic material here and here. The user also has made reverts of multiple users at the article Expédition d'Irlande in the day since he returned. It appears that a 1 week block was not enough to get the message across. nableezy - 16:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Blocked indef which = The amount of time it takes for them to understand that they cannot edit war over BLP questionable material. I do not need to be consulted if another admin decides that point has been reached. Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:06, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Good block. --John (talk) 17:10, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Support block -- This editor has not gone to much trouble to show that he is editing in good faith. He is always just on the edge and this time he fell over. EdJohnston (talk) 18:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be reasonable to more or less automatically enable pc protection on controversial BLPs when things like this happen? Looie496 (talk) 01:08, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User ZjarriRrethues (talk · contribs · page moves · block user · block log), in this diff reveled my personal identity. That was my username before, so he knows it from then. As this problematic user (whose block expired in less the 15 days ago) was well aware of Wikipedia:Harassment policy, and informed several times about it, i would like urgent admin reaction regarding this incident. Also, i would love some insurance that this user will not again do this. I didn't removed my name, but someone should do that also. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 20:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh sorry I forgot about that(btw you were discussing this with another editor not me, since you've never reported me for that), but I'll remove it myself and an oversight should delete the diff. I'm sorry about it, but I honestly forgot about it(and my first block has nothing to do with that as for being problematic the verdict is on my 31 DYKs).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have Rev/Deleted both the original post and the correction mentioned above (because the diff shows what was changed from as well as to) and restored the corrected post to the page. I have also warned ZjarriRrethues about being so careless in future and, per WP:AGF, hope that this concludes the matter. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:20, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For future reference, NEVER place a link to a diff containing personal information on any page on Wikipedia, including this one. In stead, send it STRAIGHT to oversight. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:30, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Das Baz (talk · contribs) has repeatedly (at least 7 times) inserted an entry at 2012 about the end of bullfighting in Catalonia despite being reverted each time. I've warned him about this on his talk page [65] but he persists. To give him some credit, he did, at my request, ask about it at Talk:2012, sadly suggesting though that the reversions may have been malicious vandalism. No one has responded, but each of the three editors who have reverted have explained in edit summaries at one time or another that they are reverting as it is a local event. At least one other entry of his has been reverted for similar reasons (with a 4th editor involved), again with edit summaries for the reversion. He virtually never provides edit summaries, something else I've told him he should be doing. I've been involved with him before and he clearly won't listen to me. Perhaps if someone never involved with him had a word it would help. I'm not asking for him to be blocked, just counselled. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 20:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I have added some counseling to his talk page. Looie496 (talk) 00:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just added a polite and relevant reply at Talk:2012. HiLo48 (talk) 01:08, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Das Baz could probably be blocked for 24 under 3RR. While it isn't a revert, it is adding the same information over and over again. If that isn't possible, a block just for disruptive editing (24 as well) could be used unless the user stops. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 01:14, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I hope that every administrator reading this has the same reservations as I about blocking an editor for adding verifiable information to an article. Dougweller is quite right. We should be thinking "explain" not "block", here. For starters, perhaps one of the people who are in the "local event" camp on this issue could point to where the consensus is recorded that year articles only contain non-"local" information, and what the definition of "local" that is being used is. That would certainly help, not least because Das Baz could in turn be pointed to it. Uncle G (talk) 01:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • If you look at WP:YEARS, you'll see that there is a draft for guidelines for recent year articles, WP:RY. Those guidelines say: "Recent year articles (e.g., 2009, 2010) are among the most heavily edited on Wikipedia. Since so many events happen in a year, not all events will be notable enough to merit inclusion on the page. Such events may be better placed on a subpage. That an event is important to an individual editor, or even to a particular society or nation, is insufficient ground for its inclusion. The event must have a demonstrated, international significance. The fact that other year articles may include events which break this set of guidelines is not a valid reason to do so for another event." That seems pretty clear to me that local events are not noteworthy. Although only a draft, maybe that would help.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:42, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree with UncleG that a block is not appropriate here, however I should make something clear: Being verifiable is a necessary but not sufficient criteria for adding a bit of information to any article. Wikipedia articles are not a random collection of factoids paraphrased from random reliable sources. They are well written articles about a topic. Part of writing well is editing well, and that means making editorial decisions about what to write and, more often than not, what not to write, in an article. Merely being verifiable is not a trump card which wins any arguement, and can overrule core behavioral policies (such as WP:EW) or which takes precedent over good quality writing, in all that it is. --Jayron32 01:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree, no block for now but if Das Baz is reading this thread, consider this, "what if everybody did it". While there may be no current guideline/policy about inserting local events into year articles, imagine how friggin HUGE they would become if everything someone somewhere considered important was added to them? We have to draw the line somewhere and requiring such events to be of international scope makes good editorial sense. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:20, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone. I have to apologise for forgetting to add another repeated date insertion of his, one at September 18, the latest being [66] - "1948 – Sniper slays Yoni Abramski, age 12, in Jerusalem.". No article, no edit summary. He's added this about 17 times over the past 13 months, no edit summaries, reverting editors explaining their reasons. Dougweller (talk) 04:27, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have blocked Eman007 (talk · contribs) for 24 hours for numerous personal attacks at WP:WQA#Abuse by Users Paul.h & Binksternet in San Francisco Article, after previously being warned for edit-warring. Because this is the first block I have imposed outside the context of AIV and UAA, I would like to put it up for review. Is it a good block, and was it handled correctly? Any admin who feels the block was improper has my permission to overturn it. Looie496 (talk) 01:59, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not impartial—I was the target of the personal attacks—but I think the block was appropriately timed and sized. The blocked editor's assumption of bad faith was escalating with no indication of letting up; you recognized this and acted. Binksternet (talk) 02:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that a 24 hour block for WP:CIVIL violations was appropriate here. Eman007 resorted to comments about Binksternet as a person rather than addressing any problems with actions. Once a user changes focus from actions to person, or loses or lacks the ability to make a distinction between the two, a block is probably appropriate. --Jayron32 02:16, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good block. I recently reviewed that section at WP:WQA and starting to write a comment that the complaints appeared without merit, and that serious breaches of WP:CIVIL were being perpetrated. However, I did not comment because I thought I would probably only inflame the issue. Johnuniq (talk) 02:20, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good block. The NPA violations were obvious enough to justify a block. Couple that with the edit war over the last few days and there's little doubt left. It's the only block of a long-time, if infrequent, editor who got upset, so someone may want to review the unblock request, as it seems to more or less address the issue (assuming Looie has no objections)? --RexxS (talk) 02:40, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good block. I'd like to ask again why we allow on "My Preferences" the option to mark all edits as minor, as this user has done; that is very disruptive, as people who choose not to track minor edits on their watchlists will not see said edits. –MuZemike 02:41, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bad block. WP:CIV explicitly says that "editors are generally not blocked for minor incivility". There is much worse on this board and nobody does anything. I also don't see a warning; civility blocks without prior warning should generally occur only for racist attacks or similar serious breaches of community discourse. The main problem I see is the editor was trying to resolve a content dispute on the etiquette page. A more appropriate response would have been to direct the editor to the appropriate forum for resolution, if not actually resolve the issue. Gimmetoo (talk) 02:58, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Being the subject of a WP:WQA is its own civility warning, since that IS the noticeboard for civility violations. If you are aware of a discussion at WQA regarding yourself, you have been adequately warned that your behavior is a problem. --Jayron32 03:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jayron32, if you are claiming that starting a WQA report is its own warning, as well as a self-warning, where is this documented, and why does it not apply to ANI? Gimmetoo (talk) 03:27, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. My bad. I misinterpreted the situation. I thought that the WQA thread was about Eman007, not started by him. I guess based on his behavior there, I was led to the conclusion that someone had started a thread about HIS behavior. My point was that "When someone starts a thread at WQA about your actions elsewhere on Wikipedia, it is safe to say that you have been made aware that your actions are a problem" However, since HE started the thread, that makes my point a little misplaced. I still think it was a fine block, but I take your point. Sorry about the mixup. --Jayron32 03:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, no problem. Nevertheless, it seems to me that far worse incivility has not usually resulted in blocks from ANI. (Well, except for editors who already have a block log filled with civility blocks). I am concerned about uneven application. Gimmetoo (talk) 03:50, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, while the block was 100% justified in my opinion, his unblock request also seems heartfelt. What about unblocking him? Can we agree that this was a good block when it was made, and also think that he can be unblocked? It looks like the message has been received. --Jayron32 03:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have unblocked him. Looie496 (talk) 03:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above user had a final warning in July re his persistent attempts to create an article about his (non-notable) self as Matthew Dieu Allen. Up for WP:Proposed deletion (been there 6 days so its about to go) is Matthew Allen (actor). It is the same one. I'd just left a note on his talkpage re a Prod-2 recommendation that it be salted and a COI notice - but only then did I check out the rest of the page and see the final warning there. Plutonium27 (talk) 07:28, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're nicer than I am; I would have tagged that for A7 in a second. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 07:45, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Me nice? Aw shucks. No, I'm just a bit dim. I prod-2'd it just to suggest to the deleting admin to salt it as the original tagger mentioned previous attempts. And as its 6 days since it was tagged I reckoned it would go any time now. I didn't realise til a bit later it had been created 4 times before and there was a final warning in there . Plutonium27 (talk) 07:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even if I didn't know it was a recreation, I probably still would have tagged it- whether it would have been deleted is another matter. Anyways, this guy seems to have a terminal case of either IDIDNTHEARTHAT or incompetence, and I'm not seeing any signs of improvement. You issued him a warning about salting the article title; I'd say that suffices for a final warning. If not, someone can drop by and do the honors if they're so inclined. Seems he got a final warning in July over this, and just kept on going. Prospects for improvement don't look too promising. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 08:03, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is in fact the sixth time he's tried to create an article about himself, using three permutations. Four times as Matthew Dieu Allen (once in 2007, twice in April 2010 and once in July 2010), once as Matthew dieu Allen (also April 2010) and now Matthew Allen (actor). Other contribs are not impressive: projects he's been involved with and stuff for crystal (all speedied). There are still many variations on the name but and apparently no end in sight to his endeavour.Plutonium27 (talk) 08:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

P.S.bonus: base article tagged Plutonium27 (talk) 09:09, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ninetoyadome (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has nominated Western Azerbaijan for AFD, claiming the article is "basically an azeri fairy tale which doesnt have any evidence to back up". This is a fairly disruptive AFD nomination of what appears to be a fairly sourced article on the basis of nationalistic politics. The user has only edited Armenia-related articles to date, which is why this is appears to be a WP:SPA, and I doubt any communication with the user would get anywhere in this case. Therefore, on the basis of WP:IAR, I'm bringing this issue directly here. A speedy keep and slap on the wrist would be good. Strange Passerby (talk • c • status) 08:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Justus Maximus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Could an administrator please hide Justus Maximus' soapboxing at Talk:Communist terrorism and warn him to stop. I have already warned him on his talk page. Here is his latest posting. All these lengthy postings argue from the writings of Marx, Engels, Lenin and other early writers that Marxism is pro-terrorist. But articles must be based on secondary sources and therefore these postings are distracting. TFD (talk) 13:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"must be"? Not quite. Reread the guidelines on sources - primary sources may, indeed, be used to show what the primary sources state. Thus the writings of Marx are absolutely proper sources for what Marx wrote. Marx used the word "terrorismus" which is quite akin to "terrorism." The German word "terror" is also akin to the English word "terror." Collect (talk) 14:02, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are actually scholars who have made a study of Marx and Marxism, and it is not necessary for us to comb through his works and determine what he really meant. Furthermore, it is wrong to then form interpretations of the actions of the Soviet Union and of modern terrorist groups based on our interpretations of Marx. I realize that you may be able to do this, but that is original research. TFD (talk) 14:49, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This would appear to be a content dispute. Collect, while it is perfectly acceptable to quote Marx as saying "I hate white rabbits" it is not acceptable to interpret this into an explanation for the Soviet government's approach to Alice in Wonderland without a reliable source for the interpretation, and you know this full well. Ergo anyone attempting an to get an argument from first principles into a Wikipedia article is always going to run into WP:OR issues, even if this isn't soapboxing. Ultimately it doesn't matter what Justus Maximus thinks, what matters is what the sources say. Suggest everyone get back to discussing that. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Chesdovi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Not sure what to do with this editor. He's your pretty standard truth warrior ideologue and is going badly off the rails. Since the point-fest that was his article on "Judiasm and bus stops" which he freely aditted to having created because he was struggling to have an article on Judaism and violence deleted (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Judaism and bus stops) his edits have grown increasingly aggressive and bizarre. He's been using a fringe source to try to brand Istanbul, Tiberias, Sanaa, as the "Islamic cities of hell" (using an apocryphal hadith from the 12th century from a traveller that hated these cities). For instance "ISLAM CALLS THIS CITY HELL HELL HELL HELL", [67]. He recently sought to remove the fairly basic fact that Hebron is a holy city to Muslims (since they believe the prophet abraham is buried there and that Muhamad stopped there on his night journey to jerusalem) [68]. Almost all of his edits have a slant -- either downgrading the muslim interest in a place, or seeking to create the impression that there are so many Islamic "holy cities" (for instance, he's just added the absurdity that Kairouan is considered by "many muslims to Islams fourth holiest city") that there interest in places like Hebron and Jerusalem is of no matter (I also saw him recently seeking to downgrade the non-contreversial fact that the original Muslim Qibla was towards Jerusalem with some irrelevancies about language in the Koran [69]). The sheer volume of this stuff is impossible to keep up with, and he just reverts and brushes off appeals to stop. He, charitably, is either not equipped to write on mainstream Islamic views, or is so equipped, but is simply using wikipedia to make political points. I won't oppose the edits of a propagandist any more. Hopefully this will be dealt with.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:05, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently he's had a bee in his bonnet about Islam and "holiest sites" back to 2006, according to this AN/I report from then [70].Bali ultimate (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Without commenting on the rest of this, I must say that it is certainly not absurd to describe Kairouan as "Islam's fourth holiest city". This is what I was told and read when I went to Tunisia many years ago; and there are over 200,000 Google repeating this[71]. RolandR (talk) 20:25, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Times' military correspondent wrote of Kairouan in 1939: "What a Hell of a place to put a Holy City". But unfortunatley Roland, we cannot rely on users' own experiences of what they "know" or what they have "heard". Only published RS are sufficient. That a user can remove material on the premise that it "has never heard of Damascus being a holy city in Islam" is unacceptable. Chesdovi (talk) 20:27, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's perfectly acceptable. According to our verifiability policy, unsourced material can and should be challenged and, if challenged, the people who want to include the material need to provide backing for it in reliable secondary sources. Removing that unsourced claim is quite OK. Reyk _YO! 21:42, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And if it's sourced with 8 citiations....? Chesdovi (talk) 21:46, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the issue was that you reverted several times without adding the sources, and now that you have added something others feel that the sources don't actually back up the claim being made. I don't presume to know enough about Islam to judge about that; you need to discuss it on the talk page. Reyk _YO! 22:05, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Before I moved material from Hebron, I at least made a token search to see if I could find RS. "Bali" just removes anything he has not "heard of before"! I also noted the removal on the talk page. When I have added sourced material at Sana, it is again removed. I am quite capable of discussing matters amicably as I did when I added Tiberias is a city of Hell in Islam. But I will not have anything to do with "Bali", who describes my work in rude terms and airs his views in the most repulsive of ways. Chesdovi (talk) 22:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an expert on the subject but Sana'a should be protected because of an edit war, and Bali you should know better by reverting that information as vandalism, as you did with your first revert, and with Istanbul even though it's not vandalism. And Chesdovi for reverting back and not using the talk page, and looking closely at your edits, your edits keep getting reverted, and you hardly go to the talk page and as the creator of the clearly WP:POINT Judaism and bus stops, some sort of saction should be placed on you. Secret ^account 21:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sanctions belong on the "other" editor involved here. I am within my rights to abstain from comunicating with that editor, a most abusive and intimidating user whose use of profanities is outrageous. Chesdovi (talk) 21:45, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Err, Bali...even UNESCO think that Kairouan is a major Islamic holy city [72]. Chesdovi, you have every right to ask not to be sworn at, but you cannot complain if another editor uses bad language in a non specific way even if you don't like it. You must keep using the talk page. Plainly not all of your edits are outright wrong, some would appear to be, but if you don't communicate with anyone, all that will happen is that you end up being blocked for edit warring. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:50, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want anything to do with this "Bali". He has been creepily followng me around ever since I raised concern about his violation of WP:CIVIL. Chesdovi (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, but you need to be upfront with everyone else, and you need to add the sources THE FIRST TIME, not the seventh time.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:05, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be a rather odd campaign underway to replace references to White people in the United States in a wide swath of articles with references to European American. This is particularly inapt in articles reporting U.S. Census data on "White" people, who may descend from geographic origins as far-ranging as Israel and Afghanistan. The issue was specifically addressed and resolved by community discussion at Talk:Supreme Court of the United States#Discussion of use of European American and White American on this page, but this is a one-article resolution. Advice for a swift and complete resolution would be appreciated. Cheers! bd2412 T 20:35, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK Everyone, this was posted on my talk page. And seeing as I can't make heads or tails between the two bickering parties, I'm going to repost it here. I really don't have much comment other than to note that Phoenix7777 indeed makes the poor choice of labeling any edits he disagrees with as vandalism. So this is posted from my talk page; if anybody can make heads or tails of it, by all means please step in, because I feel like I'm having the Chewbacca defense thrown at me. Regards, Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:45, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Magog the Ogre,

I would like some assistance in dealing with an edit-war that's occurring in Senkaku Islands dispute. In a nut-shell, this page is about a territorial dispute between China and Japan. While POV-pushing is a common occurrence in that page, a long-time editor of the page known as User:Phoenix7777 Special:Contributions/Phoenix7777 has recently took it upon himself to revert practically every attempt to correct pro-Japanese misinformation presented on the page. This includes numerous types of contents that had been discussed extensively and properly justified.

To name a very good example, a figure and reference of a newspaper article published by "People's Daily" or "Remin Ribao" was used in the article. The article said a number of things, which are widely confirmed by Chinese editors and very well discussed:

(1) "Senkaku Islands" was listed as a constituent of "Ryukyu Islands", which is not the same as "Okinawa"

(2) "Ryukyu Islands" was occupied by the U.S. at the time of the article's writing

(3) The author of the article explicitly disagreed with how the U.S. and Japan conspired to have the U.S. annex the "Ryukyu Islands".

However, some editors grossly misused this article and decided that it is evidence that claims "Chinese recognition of Senkaku Islands". Also, in the figure caption, the same editors persisted to put "(Okinawa)" beside "Ryukyu Islands" Phoenix7777 when the figure did not make such an equality (nor Okinawa is ever the same as Ryukyu Islands even when under U.S. occupation). Even though the degree of misuse is very obvious and occupied several threads of discussion(1, 2, 3), Phoenix7777 still refuses to acknowledge the error. He tried to justify his point by citing a load of outside Japanese review articles that made the same logical mistake, but that still doesn't change the fact that the original referenced newspaper articles did not recognize Japanese control of the Senkaku Islands (which also had been pointed out to him several times). Needless to say, he also reverts attempts (1, 2) of correcting the mistake on the article and even threatened to report me of "vandalism".

This is only one of several examples of his disruptive behaviour. I think other editors more affected by his conduct may be able to provide even more examples. In addition, there were others who complained about his edit-warring in the past (1, 2.

Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This complaint has been notified to San9663, Winstonlighter ‎ and STSC by User: Bobthefish2. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:11, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will explain the recent edits I've reverted as vandalism.

1. San9663 (talk · contribs) removed a description from a direct quote[73] and by the very next edit removed the corresponding description from the paragraph.[74]
2. Bobthefish2 (talk · contribs) removed a citation and a cited description[75] and by the very next edit added a {{cn]] to the sentence.[76]

Aren’t these vandalism? I ask Magog to warn them or to block them for an appropriate period.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's puzzling that you insist to only selectively read certain sentences of my writing and not others. As I've addressed before in here and in previous discussions, many of your citations were inaccurate in their reading of the source they cited. The disagreement is not even a matter of subjectivity, but rather a matter of definition. If an article unambiguously says "A" and not "B" and your sources say this article says "B", then your sources are wrong. And needless to say, your cited description is also misinformation by extension because it is advocating that the original newspaper article is saying something it is not. This is a VERY simple refutation and I am surprised you can't come to terms with that.

Anyhow, I believe it is a very clear-cut case of who's actually vandalizing and engaging in an edit-war to push his POV. If an admin can't set an example of destructive interference like this, then it will be hard for editors who are actually interested in writing objectively to do anything. Bobthefish2 (talk) 20:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note. A canvassed user San9663 came to comment here. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sans9663 is not a canvassed user. What I filed was a complaint and not an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote. I did not ask for a consensus and as a result, there is no vote to stack. What I did do was to notify two other editors who had made similar complaints in the recent past and another editor who's planning to file the same complaint. Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The reasoning of my edit was fully explained in the note, following the reasoning of another editor (john smith)'s principle suggested in a preceding edit elsewhere. It did not change the content as all, just removed some redudant description wich were repeated in the saem entry and could be found by simply following the wiki link. While Phoenix7777 had made several edits which were POV and controversial, and changed "claim/POV" by removing the source/claim in the sentence to make it look as if were undisputed fact, often right through reverting without discussing. Recent examples can be found here and here. I tried to convince him through talk page but since he put my name here I had no other choice but to repsond and raise the issue. San9663 (talk) 10:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes, I forgot about that too. I don't think User:Magog the Ogre will want to go through the Senkaku Islands and Senkaku Islands dispute talk/history pages, but all the evidence are there. Bobthefish2 (talk) 20:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is another example of sabotage, and has been done various times. San9663 (talk) 12:57, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually we don't need wikilinks to all of the alternative name which double-redirected to the most widely accepted name. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 13:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another example of User:Phoenix7777's destructive behaviour can be found in the Rare earth element's history. While on the surface, it appears he is removing a link to a term because the link already existed earlier in the article, a closer look will show that numerous chemical compounds or elements in this page were linked more than once (i.e. monazite, loparite, cerium, and more). To add context to this, he is not a participant of that wiki page and the edit he reverted belonged to User:San9663, whose reverts are regularly targeted by him (and often for no justifiable reason). Bobthefish2 (talk) 20:17, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]