Talk:List of common misconceptions: Difference between revisions

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of common misconceptions article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31Auto-archiving period: 30 days

"Most paleontologists regard birds as the only clade of dinosaurs to have survived the Cretaceous Tertiary extinction event approximately 65.5 Ma.". --Birds —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheThomas (talk • contribs) 11:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Birds are NOT dinosaurs. Being descended from dinosaurs is not the same thing as being a dinosaur, any more than humans possibly being descended from some ancient species of rodents makes humans rodents. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yes and no. We are Humans, homoids, apes, primates, mammals, reptiles, etc depending on the level you look at. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong again. Didn't read the quote you were responding to? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.99.79 (talk) 23:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have, again, removed cited information without any reasoning. You have been warned not to edit war on your discussion page. I have quoted the wiki page on birds as stating birds are an extant clade of dinosaurs. You have removed this correct information twice with no reasoning except 'birds are not dinosaurs' and 'wrong'. This are your opinions, and may be valuable to you, but cannot be used on wikipedia due to wikipedia's standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheThomas (talk • contribs) 00:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Birds are not dinosaurs. Being an evolutionary descendant of dinosaurs is not the same thing as being a dinosaur. The burden of proof is on you, which is also a wikipedia standard, and so far you have failed that test. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

clade n.[1] A group of animals or other organisms derived from a common ancestor species. The clade Dinosauria includes all dinosaurs as well as birds, which are descended from the dinosaurs Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:18, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion on this topic at the science ref desk.[2] Your citation that "most" scientists this-and-that is sufficient to keep it out of the article. If the scientists can't definitively agree on it, then it's not appropriate to state it as if it were a blanket truth. It could be stated with appropriate qualifications, which it was previously lacking. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:01, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's pretty clear that the misconception about humans and dinosaurs not interacting needs to be reworded. It's still true that humans never interacted with "classic" or stereotypical dinosaurs like t-rex and brontosaurus. If birds are to be considered as equivalent to dinosaurs, then the misconception needs to be written better than it was. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:30, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Heh heh, good point. Birds may be regarded as living dinosaurs, but if they are, then humans and dinos have definitely lived at the same time since we both exist now. Our Dinosaur article uses the phrase "non-avian dinosaurs" to refer to "classic" dinos like t-rex. Maybe we could use it in this case to clarify the situation? Doc Tropics 05:53, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On further review, I see that "Non-avian dinosaurs" is already used, but not until near the end of the paragraph. Would moving it up into the first sentence help resolve some of the confusion? Doc Tropics 06:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I just said at the science ref desk, I think we've got a misconception within a misconception. One is that early hominids interacted with "classic" (non-avian) dinosaurs. The other is that all dinosaurs went extinct at least 65 million years ago. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just left this note at WikiProject:Dinsoaurs in the hopes that one of our friendly Ph.D.'s can help clarify things. I'm sure it's just a matter of getting the right wording to eliminate confusion. Doc Tropics 20:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi guys. This statement: "being an evolutionary descendant of dinosaurs is not the same thing as being a dinosaur" is utterly false under modern classification systems (or at least, the classification system currently used by 99.99% of paleontologists. In phylogenetic taxonomy, unlike old-fashioned, pre-evolutionary Linnaean taxonomy, groups are nested within one another rather than being split off into 'classes' etc. In this sense, the clade Aves is nested within the clade Dinosauria (which is in turn nested inside Archosauria, Reptilia, Amniota, Vertebrata, etc.). According to all modern experts in the field (save a vocal minority of about 2 researchers), birds are dinosaurs. I can even personally attest that there has been a very large, prominent banner with the words "Birds Are dinosaurs" hanging in the Saurischian Dinosaur Hall of the American Museum of Natural History, not exactly an institution of quackery, for the past 20 years. There are also dozens of sources from the giants of the field listed in Origin of Birds, Feathered dinosaurs, etc. if you want something citable. In short, Baseball Bugs is misinformed and/or following outdated information. MMartyniuk (talk) 00:10, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's not quite true. As was pointed out in the science ref desk, "dinosaur" used to mean one thing, and its definition was broadened to mean something else, but in general the public thinks of T-Rex and Brontosaurus as "dinosaurs", and birds as "birds". And as I say, this leaves us with a misconception within a misconception. The standard "fact" is "dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago". That's true of the "classic" dinosaurs, but not of the avian ancestors. So the misconception needs to either be re-worded or jettisoned altogether. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:00, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I was just responding to a request for clarification. I don't know what definition of "misconception" you guys are using. The fact is that in the past, "dinosaur" was a vague term that excluded birds but included certain extinct reptiles. It has since been given a formal definition where it includes a specific set of reptiles that happens to include birds within that set. This is in parallel with say, the definition of "planet" (note, not a 're-definition', as in both cases no formal definition existed in the first place). If you would say that it's a misconception that Pluto is a planet, than it is also a misconception that dinosaurs are extinct. If not, then it's not. Is it still a misconception if a definition changes and the general public doesn't know about the change? I think that's the central issue here, not whether or not birds are dinosaurs (they are, contra your initial posts asserting otherwise). MMartyniuk (talk) 01:35, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The misconception is that humans interacted with "classic" dinosaurs such as T-Rex and Brontosaurus, and that misconception remains intact. In general, people don't think of birds as being dinosaurs, because they are not "terrible lizards", they are birds. As far as Pluto is concerned, that wouldn't qualify as a misconception, because Pluto did not change, only the scientists' designation for it did, just as they decided to redefine what a dinosaur is; which is why scientists get ridiculed for stuff like this. Of course there was a "formal definition" of what planets and dinosaurs were - look in any old dictionary. The asteroids used to be called "minor planets". This term "dwarf planet" is likewise an invention of scientists, but Pluto is still a "planet" by strict definition of what a "planet" is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:52, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By "formal definition" I meant a scientific one used by experts in the field, not the kind of vague, colloquial definitions given in dictionaries for scientific terms. (I actually have some popular kids books from the '70s which argue that there is no such thing as a "dinosaur to begin with, only a vague, informal term for certain unrelated prehistoric reptiles. The modern definition took over when it was recognized that classic dinosaurs actually do form a natural group. So it was as much a result of scientific discovery as changing definitions). Looking in a random dictionary right now, the definitions given there would make some "classic dinosaurs" true birds, since it defines "bird" only as "winged, egg-laying, warm blooded vertebrates." This describes Velociraptor as much as it does an ostrich. As for minor planets, the fact that different people were using the term planet in different ways at various times means that there were a variety of colloquial definitions, but no universally recognized formal one. Anyway, I agree with you that if it has to come down to an issue of semantics like this, it's probably not a common misconception. MMartyniuk (talk) 02:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scientists are notorious for changing their minds about things, so the statement "birds are dinosaurs" is not a "fact", it's merely the way one group is classifying things this week. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:39, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Simply put: Birds are dinosaurs, by today's standards, but this need not be included in the misconception due to its confusing nature? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.99.79 (talk) 07:43, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a fact if you simply use a full sentence. It is a fact that birds are dinosaurs in the most used phylogenetic model. Or cladistic model. Or whatever. That being the dominant model, saying it 'isn't a fact' is like saying "Earth being a planet isn't a fact." Well, in the relevant model, it is! In some model it may not be, but so what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.99.79 (talk) 08:28, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree if someone wants to remove the bit about birds being dinosaurs. I only re-entered the edit four or six times, or whatever, because the argument against it was that 'birds aren't dinosaurs'. Which is wrong. But it is true that 'birds are dinosaurs' might not be really a necessary tidbit for this misconception. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.99.79 (talk) 08:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the right way to say it might be, "Birds didn't used to be dinosaurs, but now they are." And if that seems like a joke, it is, but not for the reason you think. It's the scientists who are responsible for this shifting sand of definitions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:26, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Baseball Bugs, the nature of science is ongoing review when new data becomes available. The last thirty years has seen huge changes in how we classify organisms (cladistics) - we now know that birds are descended from dinosaurs, and that that means they are technically dinosaurs. Birds, dinosaurs (and crocodiles for that matter) share a more recent common ancestor (and are hence more closely related to each other) than other reptiles such as turtles, snakes and lizards. Hence they form a more natural group. I would add a final line "Ironically, birds are now considered to be dinosaurs by most scientists, so we are all coexisting with dinosaurs." once I find a nice consensus reference. Having a photo of the banner sounds cool. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:59, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Update - added 3 refs showing consensus that birds = dinosaurs. This is a consensus view. Period. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:50, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I trimmed this to "birds evolved from dinosaurs" which is the mainstream consensus simply stated. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:55, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1st sentence, 2nd para, last sentence, first para, first sentence - um, "are" being the operative word, not "evolved" Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:38, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Birds are dinosaurs. In the same sense in which humans are apes, apes are monkeys, and whales are fish. Don't worry, I'm not about to try to make those changes. TomS TDotO (talk) 14:06, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've stayed out of this debate but now feel compelled to jump in. Casliber, the sources occasionally use the phrase "are dinosaurs", but there is also a generous use of phrases such "descended from", including the idea that dinosaurs and birds descended from a common ancestor, which does not make birds equivalent to dinosaurs. There is enough doubt about the bold statement "birds are dinosaurs" that it should not be stated as such in the article. Mention the possibility, including common ancestry, but don't state "birds are dinosaurs" as if it is unquestioned fact. Cresix (talk) 15:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"birds equivalent to dinosaurs"? "birds = dinosaurs"? Is there such a confusion about the statement that birds are dinosaurs? That "birds are dinosaurs" means that "dinosaurs are birds"? If there is such a confusion, then it counts as a common misconception, and there should be an explanation of that. "Tomatoes are fruit" does not mean that fruit are tomatoes. Maybe there should be an entry about cladistics, in which it is explained that a clade includes all the descendants of the last common ancestor (LCA) of all of the members of the clade. If "dinosaur" is a clade, and birds are the descendants of some dinosaurs, then that means that birds are descendants of their LCA, and birds are dinosaurs. Just as humans are the descendants of the LCA of chimps and gibbons (both of which are universally recognized as apes). Just as apes are the descendants of the LCA of titis and baboons (that is, monkeys). Just as whales are the descendants of the LCA of sharks and tunas (that is, fish). (Other examples of descendants of the LCA of fish are ostriches and anteaters.) TomS TDotO (talk) 16:31, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please Cresix, read about cladistics. And look at the sources. These museums do not make statements like this lightly. Each reference makes the statement "birds are dinosaurs" within it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:34, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Despite your condescending suggestion, Casliber, I did read the sources. You are selectively citing parts of sources, overlooking (as I have already said) that the sources also make as much use of phrases such as "descended from" as they do "are dinosaurs". Certainly the possibility exists that birds are dinosaurs, but you are imposing an inflexible interpretation on a matter that is not universally acknowledged, even in the very sources that you cite. Cresix (talk) 18:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me the problem here is just that there are clearly two senses of 'dinosaur' involved here. There is the scientific sense, which is rigorously defined, and in this sense birds are dinosaurs. There is a distinct, ordinary sense, which is not clearly defined, and in this sense birds are not dinosaurs. This is perfectly analogous to the term 'animal'. In its biological sense, humans are animals. In its ordinary sense, humans are not animals. (If you doubt the latter claim, try reporting child abuse to your local animal cruelty prevention organization.) Because there are two distinct senses of the same word, any revisions need to acknowledge explicitly that there are these two senses, and say unambiguously which is intended. MJM74 (talk) 20:08, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ISTM that everybody is agreeing that there is a common misconception or two which call for explanations, and what better place to have those explanations? TomS TDotO (talk) 20:55, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Whow, this is one of those problems even scientists themselves are not agreeing about. We are just having a nice discussion on this topic on one of the taxonomists list-serves. Anyway, the issue is that there are several paradigms used when we classify taxa. In the strict phylogenetic way, all extant species that originated from a single ancestor are preferably grouped together in a monophyletic group. If we do that, birds and dinosaurs are in the same group. A different way to look at it is from the perspective of changes, some critical characteristic. Here it gets fishy, because birds are traditionally defined on characteristics like having feathers, but feathered tetrapods have made taht a bit difficult and the current definition of birds is somewaht arbitrary set to Archeopteryx being the first bird. But if we ignore those details, birds have acquired some unique characteristics and for that reason should be considered a seprerate group outside of the dinosaurs. This would make the dinosaurs paraphyletic in the phylogenetic sense, but would be more representative for the crucial changes underpinning the group. Nowadays, there is a strong push in science towards forcing monophyletic groups in the phylogenetic context (especially by molecular phylogenetisists), but it is by no means the only voice (many more traditional taxonomists disagree). -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The nested definition idea seems suspect to me. if birds are dinosaurs because they share a common ancestor, doesn't that mean that mammals are reptiles (or amphibians, or fish) for the same reason? I can't see that "descended from a common ancestor" means "is the same as" Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:24, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But birds do not just "share a common ancestor" with dinosaurs. We share a common ancestor with dinosaurs, trees share a common ancestor with dinosaurs, crocs share a common ancestor with dinosaurs. Birds are nested inside dinosaurs, just as tyrannosaurids, ceratopsians, and sauropods are. (Follow the links in order to make any sense of things.) It's no different from dogs being nested inside mammals. And Velociraptor (or even Brachiosaurus) is more closely related to a house sparrow than to a Triceratops. Albertonykus (talk) 04:32, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Birds are dinosaurs" does not mean "birds are the same as dinosaurs." Some dinosaurs were not birds. And the same "problem" of cladistics applies with "reptiles" (including "turtles", "crocodiles", and "snakes" implies including "mammals" and "birds") and "fish" (including "tunas" and "sharks" implies including "reptiles"). TomS TDotO (talk) 14:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

After reading the previous discussion on this talk page about vomitoria, I did a little source-hunting to see if I could nail down "misconception" and "common" sources (and convice myself that I'm not crazy and everyone else has heard this one too!). Here's what I came up with:

• Oxford Dictionaries entry for "vomitorium": "a place in which, according to popular misconception, the ancient Romans are supposed to have vomited during feasts to make room for more food".
• Google books preview for a book called "A Cabinet of Roman Curiosities: Strange Tales and Surprising Facts from the World's Greatest Empire": "There is a common misconception that rich Romans had a special room, a vomitorium, to which they withdrew to throw up so that they could continue eating. There is no evidence for such a room.", which goes on to define what a vomitorium actually was, in addition.

These both strike me as fairly reliable sources; I'd like to propose that we replace the vomitorium blurb in the article with the wording originally provided by IP 199.106.103.249, bulked up by my sources: In ancient Rome, there was no wide-spread practice of self-induced vomiting after meals, and Romans did not build rooms called vomitoria in which to purge themselves after a meal.^[1] Vomitoria were tunnels underneath the seats in their stadiums which allowed crowds entrance and exit.^[2]

Opinions? keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 15:14, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds OK to me. Thanks for finding the sources. Cresix (talk) 21:48, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and nice work! Doc Tropics 22:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

{{edit protected}}

Per the above discussion, please insert the following text into the "Europe" Section under "History". For attribution purposes, edit summary might need to include that the text, minus sources, was originally written by anon editor 199.106.103.249.

• In ancient Rome, there was no wide-spread practice of self-induced vomiting after meals, and Romans did not build rooms called vomitoria in which to purge themselves after a meal.^[3] Vomitoria were tunnels underneath the seats in their stadiums which allowed crowds entrance and exit.^[4]

keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 14:38, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Good work. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:08, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

{{edit protected}} Can ancient Rome and Vomitoria be linked? The latter certainly should be and I think the former would be useful too. It looks a little too bare of links at the moment.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 00:03, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

already  Done Magog the Ogre (talk) 13:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is an outstanding request for mediation concerning this article. I would be willing to accept the role of mediator, but I have a couple of concerns. First of all, the request for mediation looks more like a request for support. That is not how mediation works. Secondly, the atmosphere on this talk page seems quite hostile and I see possible IP socking issues. Is this a serious request for mediation, or should I just close the case? -- Scjessey (talk) 18:32, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How nice it was of the user to NOT notify us of that nonsense. As far as socking, he freely admits to using that IP, so that's not at issue. He does tend to show up and disappear, such as he did in mid-November, and also since about 3 days ago. The problem on this page is editors who run across something that has to do with a survey about misconceptions and then they present it as "fact". The wrangling is over trying to keep the page tight and neither endless nor dubious. The dinosaurs/birds issue is one. The point is it's being debated. The trouble with the user in question is that he doesn't understand that his posting something in an article doesn't mean he gets to own that posting. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:53, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I checked my archives and I was definitely NOT notified of this so-called "mediation". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:01, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. It doesn't sound like mediation is appropriate (or necessary) in this instance. I'll give it 24 hours for the requesting party to respond, but if I don't hear anything I'll close the case. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:11, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nor was I notified, and I'm directly named in the mediation request as a party to the dispute. This issue was discussed rather extensively on this talk page. This is an example of one user (TheThomas (talk · contribs)) trying to assert unilateral control over the consensus process repeatedly over a period of months and not accepting the fact that he does not form a consensus of one person. Both before and after requesting mediation, he restored the item with his "consensus of one". The first time he tried to do it "under the radar" editing as an anon and not leaving an edit summary. When called on that, he made the request for mediation. When that didn't get a response for a couple of weeks, he again restored the item with the edit summary "Added back in due to lack of consensus or reasoning for removal". Note also that some of this user's suggested additions to the article have been accepted with little discussion, so we have taken the time to consider his ideas and, when necessary, discuss. Cresix (talk) 21:00, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is two cases that I have repeatedly added sourced material (usually days apart), which has then been repeatedly reverted by Cresix or Baseball Bugs.

1) I go to the talk page, discuss the removal. I get no response for five days, then I add in the removed piece--"Added back in due to lack of consensus or reasoning for removal". That is my understanding of consensus by silence in WP:CON. If nobody has a reason for removal of material, then it is consensus by silence.WP:SILENCE

2) The second case in which I post material repeatedly (again, days apart) is when the complaint against my material is that the source is bad (broken link, not specific, not a strong enough study). In which case I go find a study which meets the reasonable requirement set by the objecting party, and reinsert the material. Which is my understanding of consensus.building consensus Both parties (myself and objector) agree that the article could use stronger supporting references, then I add the references after waiting for any other objections.

I have tried, multiple times, inserting new material directly into the discussion section--in order to skip the insert/delete/insert/delete phase. This has resulted in zero, zero, responses. So, I must put the material into the page to test whether these two will delete it. So far, my experience has been that these two will delete anything they have once removed--no matter how many times I meet their requests for better documentation of the appropriateness of my inserted statement.

The short version; these two are repeatedly deleting good, sourced information without reason, or having given a reasonable standard to meet, deleting after the standard is met. That is edit-warring, and it is bad for wikipedia. Effective discussion has ended, since no reason is given for repeatedly deleting material--besides the circular reason, 'no consensus for addition.' TheThomas (talk) 08:40, 5 December 2010 (UTC)72.187.99.79 (talk) 07:38, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'Consensus for addition' is not policy of an unchallenged edit. It is the opposite of policy.Wikipedia:DRNC This page does not get its own policy because these two demand it.WP:CONLIMITED

Only when an edit is removed, and in the discussion or edit note, there is listed a reason for removal, which isn't addressed, is consensus needed. The edits I have repeatedly put in with more, and more, sources were not in need of consensus.Building Consensus If an issue was brought up, it was addressed, or the issue was dropped by me. If an issue was not brought up with the edit, I waited 5 days then re-entered the edit, per wikipedia policy.WP:SILENCE

Note: for the character of these edit wars. In this discussion section Baseball Bugs states that I warned him not to edit war after he repeatedly removed material. He feels he was in the right simply because he thinks what I put was " the blatant falsehood that 'birds are dinosaurs'." Apparently, not knowing much about dinosaurs, he feels he is the ultimate judge here. Despite me linking to the Birds article which I was very nearly quoting. The truth wasn't important to him, the quality of references weren't important. What was? His opinion, that's what.

This occurred again with the first iteration of another statement I have been trying to edit into this article. He started the discussion by simply saying, 'no that's wrong'. Without knowing a damned thing about the subject he feels he can flout peer-review, and professional opinions I cited [3]. At this point it has five separate references for one sentence. Not enough? Not if opinion is more important than fact. Having just two sentences in the conversation--one accusing me of being a shill for a corporation--he then baldly asserts "Yes, it's settled: It doesn't belong in the article." The conversation was between me and one other person(Cresix), no consensus whatsoever. Why is it settled? Cuz Bugs says so.

As for Cresix. He thinks I am bound by rules that he really doesn't pay attention to. Wikipedia:DRNC "Don't revert due to 'no consensus' ". He repeatedly says I can't enter things into this article without first having consensus. Guess who's consensus. Bug's and Cresix's. The only two people in the discussion channel. Bugs says no to everything he doesn't understand. With a three person vote, it will always be Cresix that decides the vote...this is not an excellent system. Ownership! Wikipedia policy states that "no consensus" for adding an edit is NOT a reason for keeping that edit out, except in highly refined pages, which this is not. Consensus is for removing material, but this bureaucrat missed that part, and repeats the circular reasoning, "No consensus to make any of the changes currently under discussion." Oddly enough, he usually doesn't even bother to claim a problem with an edit, just says there is no consensus.

As for the particular accusations : "We have a user who insists, despite lengthy talk page discussion, that he has a right to post a particular theory despite the lack of consensus to do so." -- I have no idea what this is referring to. Nearly everything I have posted (all with citations) has been immediately reverted. Often while displaying a lack of understanding in the appropriate field of knowledge. Note "Birds are dinosaurs."

"This user apparently thinks he constitutes a consensus of one person, despite being told repeatedly there is no such thing." --This is wrong. A consensus by silence is a consensus of one person. Which I have been clear about. If no one discusses any complaint about an edit for five days I put it in b/c that makes sense. "Of course, it is impractical to wait forever for affirmation: in the meantime then, sometimes it is best to assume that silence implies consensus." WP:SILENCE

"He first tried to restore contentious material "under the radar" by editing as an IP with no edit summary." --Yes...all edits that aren't declared as "Hey Cresix, I'm editing" are insidious...

Cresix claims, TheThomas gave a gratuitous warning "...to me after I reverted him one time." In fact, nearly all my (many, cited) edits were reverted by one of these two users.

I'm simply trying to make this article better by adding well-sourced material. Unfortunately, instead of this being a cooperative activity it has become a competitive one.TheThomas (talk) 12:28, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, please try to follow the usual conventions for indenting comments. The above is confusing, and the problem is exacerbated by flipping between your account name and IP address. Secondly, it seems clear to me that the problem here is lack of editors. This is typical with "list of..." articles (may they all be damned) because they are so often subjective. Thirdly, the debate has descended into a series of terse comments of dubious good faith. If mediation is truly desired, I will be happy to help. That being said, I will primarily be involved in facilitating collegial discussion, during which I will expect everyone to behave like timid nuns and basically follow the tried-and-trusted approach of proposing changes on the talk page before attempting to implement them. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: This article has been a WP:BATTLEGROUND for at least a couple years. Things have actually died down significantly from its heyday. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:06, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, AQFK! Thank you for the info. I will bear that in mind if mediation is accepted by the parties. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:11, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe locking down both the article page and the talk page for awhile might help. Like for 6 months. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:12, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I think I might have given a false impression. If I am not mistaken, Bugs, Cresix and TheThomas are relatively new editors to the article. I was referring to past disputes with different editors. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:17, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I once gave a false impression. I tried doing Sylvester, and they told me I was Daffy.

I ran across this page a few months back, I don't recall exactly when; and there was indeed constant arguing, all going back to the attempt to keep the standards rigorous or you'd have every alleged "misconception" that was revealed by some researcher's survey or that someone remembered from childhood turning up here. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:22, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, I have followed this article for about four years. I did some minor editing originally as an anon. Then after registering I became more active. I've witnessed a lot of the battles. Cresix (talk) 17:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@AQFK - It's okay. I read it as an historical issue, rather than something current. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:21, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Bugs - That seems a teeny bit extreme, akin to "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit." -- Scjessey (talk) 17:21, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hence the "maybe". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:27, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Scjessey. I'll simply comment that TheThomas has provided no new information in this section. The fundamental issue is whether the item that TheThomas wishes to add is a "common" misconception. In my opinion (and I believe Baseball Bugs will agree) it is not a common misconception, and TheThomas has not provided adequate evidence that it is a common misconception. This is a frequent issue for this page: There are millions of misconceptions. Are all of them "common" misconceptions? Some misconceptions are held by a few people ("the earth is flat"). Some are held by a group of people with enough knowledge of the subject to even have a misconception (the behavior of subatomic particles). Some are held by a broad range of people, and those might be considered common. Sometimes an item is added after an editor finds clear evidence that the misconception is common; for example, see the excellent work above by keɪɑtɪk flʌfi regarding Roman vomitoria. That issue was debated back and forth as to whether it is a common misconception; then keɪɑtɪk flʌfi did the research and found very good sources supporting that it is common. Even then, keɪɑtɪk flʌfi was thoughtful enough to get others' opinions before adding the item. Without unequivocal sourcing that the misconception is common, items are sometimes added by consensus that the misconception is common. I don't believe TheThomas has provided that unequivocal sourcing, and there is no consensus to add the item. Thanks. Cresix (talk) 17:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good summary. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:24, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(after ec) - I would argue that there is no consensus not to add the item either. A meaningful consensus is hard to obtain with so few editors. Perhaps a Request for Comment would be more useful? It would bring in extra eyes on this matter. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone, of course, can post an RfC. I would urge that if it is done, in the spirit of neutrality, the explanation should include a clear distinction between sourcing that an item is true (e.g., the earth is not flat) and sourcing that it is a common misconception. Cresix (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, as for no consensus not to add the item, that certainly is true, but until there is a consensus, the burden of proof is on the editor wishing to add or restore the item. Cresix (talk) 17:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, and that's the crux of the current issue. Thomas and his IP alter ego think that if they read some magazine article that claims that (1) this is a common belief and (2) my survey indicates otherwise; that somehow it qualifies for this wikipedia article, without discussion. Wrong. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:36, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With respect to WP:BURDEN, that is indeed correct; however, my purpose as mediator is to mediate between parties, and part of that is to make sure all reasonable points of view are considered. While I have my own feelings on the matter, I will not be taking sides. I would like to help parties come to a mutual agreement by promoting reasonable discussion and mutual respect. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:46, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Understood, and thanks for your efforts. Cresix (talk) 17:50, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If it's simply a question of sourcing, WP:RSN should settle the matter in a couple of days. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:41, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RSN may be helpful, but again, let's make distinction. An item can be reliably sourced as true ("the earth is not flat"), but that is not equivalent to being reliably sourced that it is a common misconception. Cresix (talk) 17:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)The tricky part is this article's two-pronged requirement of a "fact" being both a commonly held belief and being untrue. One author claiming that something is both a commonly held belief and that his survey proves otherwise, is nowhere near sufficient. The "commonly held" part needs to be broadly demonstrated to be "commonly" believed; and the "untrue" part needs to be broadly demonstrated to be untrue. One guy taking a survey demonstrates neither. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:46, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If an editor is combining two sources to state a conclusion not reached by either, then it's a violation of WP:SYN. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly, but it's not exactly that, in this case. It's finding a magazine article somewhere and concluding that that one article is the truth and therefore it qualifies, without looking into other studies that might demonstrate otherwise... or looking into studies of those studies, which would take away the "primary source" aspect of it, while supporting the "widely held" requirement and possibly the "untrue" requirement. I say "possibly" because surveys are notoriously suspect for being worded in such a way to prove the researcher's point. I've said before, I know exactly where I was on 9/11/01 and 11/22/63 when I heard the news, and no survey in the world can prove otherwise. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:56, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It would be helpful if the proposed text and associated sources could be represented in a new section below. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:04, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See below. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:15, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. I must be missing something, because I'm having a hard time believing flashbulb memories are a misconception at all, let alone a common one. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To some extent, I believe you are correct. I believe this particular "misconception" falls into the group I described above as held only by people who have enough knowledge to even have a misconception. It may be a misconception among some with knowledge of memory research (or those who think they have that knowledge), but most people have never heard of it. Cresix (talk) 18:29, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The alleged misconception is that people don't remember things as well as they think they do. That's hardly a news flash, as there is no end of conflicting testimony of eyewitnesses even right after an event. And you're right, this "flash memory" business is an obscure term. This vaguely reminds me of something from a few months back about how Louis Armstrong supposedly had a different birthdate than was "commonly" thought. Trouble is, the average citizen nowadays barely knows who Louis Armstrong was, never mind what his birthday was. That one, obviously, was kept out. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:57, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And again, the premise is unprovable anyway. I can tell you precisely where I was and what I said when I first learned of JFK and 9/11 and the Shuttle explosion, but I haven't a clue what I had for lunch on those particular days. Some things stick with you and some don't. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:01, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Things have gone quiet. Will one of you file an RfC over this issue, or shall I just close the medcab case and exit stage left? -- Scjessey (talk) 16:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those two options are not mutually exclusive, of course. I suggest closing if you see no need for mediation. Any editor can post an RfC at any time. Thanks for you help. Cresix (talk) 17:24, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is so sad. Cresix just repeats "there is no consensus" while bugs makes up some nonsense about citing one magazine article. The one statement has five citations, and no consensus is not a reason. It is nonsense to say that hasn't met the burden of proof, it has several citations which say it is a common misconception, several which say it is common, and several which say it is a misconception. But, at least spitting out nonsense is better than the edit warring you two have been doing--not even having claimed a reason to support your actions. I don't care to spend an infinite amount of time discussing this topic, so I probably won't attempt to find a six, seventh, and eighth citation for the bloody-fucking obvious.72.187.199.192 (talk) 10:28, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"...the premise is unprovable anyway." You've repeatedly said things like this (scientifically and logically illiterate, or nearly so) about this, and other, edits I've made. I want you to consider that scientists were the ones to state that 'flashbulb memories aren't more accurate'. It wasn't me. What you are citing is your opinion of how accurate your memory is. The facts say that memory is no more accurate than other memories you have. Note: forgetting what you ate that day has nothing to do with this discussion. It is a discussion of accuracies of memories, not retention of memories.72.187.199.192 (talk) 10:28, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Basically, I don't think you should be doing much more than editing when it comes to topics you don't understand. I understand your need to tamper, go ahead, but if you've never learned a significant amount about a topic, please don't remove/revert it. Note: In the "Birds are Dinosaurs" discussion we had to get a professional to specifically tell you that you were completely wrong...then you argued with him. 72.187.199.192 (talk) 10:28, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The point of my "There is two cases that I have repeatedly added sourced material..." material up top was to point out that you were both consistently breaking policy to revert my material. The fact that you feel that 'adds nothing to the discussion' disgusts me. I normally wouldn't even think to explain why breaking policy repeatedly is bad. But, apparently you two need that done. When you break policy you undo what is good and great about wikipedia, and degrade it. Doing harm to a great thing is bad, it means you are foul and that the rest of us must undo your harm rather than enjoy wikipedia.72.187.199.192 (talk) 10:28, 11 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.199.192 (talk) 10:08, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rant about the issues as much as you wish, but watch the personal comments about editors ("you two are foul"). Cresix (talk) 21:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not foul at all. In fact, I went into the gap for extra bases. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• It is a common misconception that some particularly emotional events (9/11, Challenger explosion) cause memories which are stronger (Flashbulb memory),^[1][2][3] and more reliable than normal memories. In fact, the details of any long-held memory are similarly very untrustworthy.^[4][5]

Some of these misconceptions are so dumb I have to assert that they are only "reportedly" common misconceptions, and aren't very common.

I'm trying to set up a dichotomy between "commonly reported as a common misconception" and "common misconception".

How common is it, really, for people to believe lightning never strikes the same place twice? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.99.79 (talk) 07:17, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What, you've never heard the expression? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:21, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it is a common quote, but I don't think the people who say it believe it. I may be wrong, but unless there is hard data, I may be right. The quote may simply be older than towers tall enough to attract lightning commonly. The same goes for Europeans believing in the world being flat. This makes me think this article should be split into two halves. True misconceptions and reportedly misconceptions. Respectively With, and Without, empirical research into the commonness. "Commonly reported as a common misconception" and "common misconception".~ ~ ~ 72.187.99.79 (talk) ~ ~ ~ 72.187.99.79 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC).[reply]

That sounds like a content fork, but it does give me an idea. Maybe there could be a separate article (again, at risk of it being endless) that examines the truth or falsehood of "well-known sayings". For example, "Lightning never strikes the same place twice." Obviously false, but it could be taken as a metaphor equivalent to "Opportunity only knocks once." "Water finds its level." Probably true. "Criminals always return to the scene of the crime." It only takes one exception to "prove" that one false, but a more interesting result would be if there is any reliable info on what percentage of criminals return to the scene of the crime, assuming they're even able to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An improvement, not a fork. Interesting idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheThomas (talk • contribs) 11:25, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

72.187.99.79: Where are you going to get sources which specifically state something is a common misconception but there's no empirical research into its commonness? AQFK (talk) 14:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure if the average American were asked which country originated French fries, they would look at the questioner as if he had just asked what color the White House is. The attempt by some to rename them "Freedom fries" due to political issues with France speaks to the core assumption that they're of French origin. In France itself, these kinds of fried potatoes are called "fried potatoes" or simply "fries", which also has the the unfortunate side effect to a visitor (such as I was) of reinforcing the assumption that they're French, because why would the French bother to call them "French" fries? I recall many years ago when Harry Reasoner did a special called "An Essay on Doors". The only specific thing I remember from that program are his comment, "French doors are about as French as French fries - which aren't!" However, sourcing is needed. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have a little different perspective on this. I suspect that most Americans perceive the name of the food as "frenchfries"; to them, it's just a name with no connotation of national origin. I think if they have a surprised look when asked which country originated "frenchfries", it would be the same look you would get if you asked for the country of origin for "hashbrowns" or "potato salad". Now if you emphasized the word "French", there might be a pause followed by "Uh ... I guess ... France??". But maybe I've just been hanging around people who don't think very deeply. :) Cresix (talk) 23:57, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think Reasoner's comment subtly points out something. There are likely plenty of objects which have false labels. The public uses those false labels frequently and ignorantly. But does it matter enough to add it to a "misconceptions" article? Actually, the attempt to label them "Freedom fries" speaks directly to such a misconception. But it would be tough to prove that the average citizen really knows or cares what country these fries actually originated from. A parallel I can think of is chop suey, which is commonly assumed to be a Chinese dish, but supposedly was invented by a restaurant owner in Chinatown, San Francisco, which means the dish is not exactly "Chinese", but more like "American-Chinese". But it tastes the same either way. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:23, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, whether they originated in France or Timbuktu, I prefer good ol' American burgers and fries smothered in catsup rather than a Royale with cheese and fried potatoes covered in mayonnaise. Cresix (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That raises another "misconception", namely that a "hamburger" might be made of ham. There's no end to this kind of thing, which is why it doesn't really belong in this article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:01, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And then there's the ancient mystery of which part of the chicken is the nugget. :) Cresix (talk) 02:14, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Parts is parts."[4] Beyond that, we're better off not knowing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:16, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot about that commercial! LMAO!! Cresix (talk) 03:05, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've stayed out of the bird/dinosaur issue, but having just read the item,[5] it's confusing and appears to contradict itself. The item needs to be clearly explained or removed. Or just remove the last sentence. The last sentence is probably a violation of WP:SYN anyway. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We now have discussion on this topic going on on two sperate places on this page. What is synthesis about it? Birds = dinosaurs in the sources provided. I guess you could take out the word "conversely", is that what you mean? Actually a better idea is to change the misconception to "Dinosaurs are extinct. They are not. Birds are dinosaurs"Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's not WP:SYN, but the last three sources aren't about this common misconception. I think the problem is as you said, there are (at least) two different defintions of the word 'dinosaur' but our article doesn't explain this. Just axe the final sentence and it's fine. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:15, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Have you studied biological sciences at all? Have a read of cladistics. Leaving off the last line reinforces an antiquated view of vertebrate biology. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:17, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A week or so ago, it stated that the last non-avian dinosaur went extinct 65 million years ago. I thought that was a nice, concise way to say it. So what happened? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:27, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

{EC}I dissected a frog once. I think you're being too clever for your own good. When most people think of dinosours, they're thinking tyrannosaurus rex, brontosaurus, pterodactyl, etc. See this. In fact, dictionary.reference.com defines dinosaur as "any chiefly terrestrial, herbivorous or carnivorous reptile of the extinct orders Saurischia and Ornithischia, from the Mesozoic Era, certain species of which are the largest known land animals."[6] If you want to correct the common misconception that there are no living descendents of dinosaurs, I suggest you create a separate item. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, I don't see anyone disputing the misconception (that humans existed in the eras in question), all I see is a debate about wording which looks increasingly pedantic. I'm sure this is a relevant debate somewhere, but's not all that relevant on this page. Hairhorn (talk) 20:43, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The assertion that "birds are dinosaurs" is not a "fact", it's this week's classification by scientists who think they own the English language. The simple wording that was there a week ago was just fine. The current version is an attempt to browbeat the public with the scientists' current definition of dinosaurs, and it's not appropriate. It's pedantic, as you say. The animals did not change, only science changed its definitions. Like when they haughtily declared that Pluto was no longer a planet. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is a fact. It's not this week's current definition but the culmination of 150 years' worth of investigation. The more fossils are found indicating a great many dinosaurs had feather-like structures as well as evidence for their warm-bloodedness, shows how wrong earlier conceptions were. Anyway, BB, beyond that the wording reflects the sources. Wording something as "descended from" implies exclusion, which is in error and conflicts with the sources. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to get involved (at present) with your discussion, but will just comment on your (Casliber's) statement, which contains a logical error: "Wording something as "descended from" implies exclusion,..." No, "descended from" implies" "descended from", not exclusion. It can still be inclusive and definitely implies relationship, not exclusion. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The only "fact" is that scientists co-opted the term and assigned their own meaning to it and expect the public to kiss up to it. In any case, the wording a week ago was fine, and somebody screwed with it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ummmmm, Baseball Bugs, the level of knowledge (or otherwise) you are happy with I have no problem with, but please don't foist your opinions on issues when they differ with experts such as the various museums cited. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@BullRangifer, there is strict wording (i.e. the sentence makes no comment on inclusiveness), and there is implication. But okay, I'll conced the point. The next issue then is that the statement which uses "birds are descended from dinosaurs" without saying "birds are dinosaurs" is cherry-picking material from the sources and potentially misleading by omission. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We could resolve this issue nicely by deleting everything from "The issue is complicated..." and onwards. It really does "complicate" the picture and really isn't part of the whole point. It's only an issue for pedants. It sidetracks and detracts from the main point....humans and dinosaurs didn't exist at the same time. That's the point and we should just stick to it.

If one really wants to save that material, then bury it in a footnote. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, let's not. As it is right now I can live with. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with what Bugs, Brangifer and others have said. Casliber, you seem to be the only one championing this. If this is the case, I suggest you drop the issue so we can move on. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why this doesn't present the opportunity of clarifying another "common misconception". The common misconception that cladistics clarifies by classifying humans as apes, apes as monkeys, and birds as dinosaurs. TomS TDotO (talk) 03:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A Quest for Knowledge, these arguments aren't about numerical advantages. Plain fact is, if people won't read sources or value their own opinion over Reliable Sources then I am at a loss as to how they can contribute. You can't cherry-pick sources to suit your arguments...which contrast with all the museums I've linked to thus far. Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:22, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why not just drop that discussion? Screw the sources because all this discussion about birds and dinosaurs is another topic than the main point....humans and dinosaurs didn't live at the same time. Period. Keep it simple.

Casliber, if you want to start a new section about the bird/dinosaur matter, then do it, but don't let it confound and create confusion about this simple matter. Humans and dinosaurs aren't even slightly related, so we don't have to worry about it. -- Brangifer (talk) 09:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Casliber: You keep confusing two different definitions of the word 'dinosaur' as if they're the same when they're not. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I favor the suggestion to remove the entire mention of the bird issue. Neither the article nor this talk page is a dissertation on evolutionary biology. Casliber, you are alone on this. Consensus has been achieved. Please move on. Cresix (talk) 19:26, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. This leaves a section that stays very strictly on-topic without any distractions. The previous version would be a constant target for edit wars, and all over a side issue. There is no point in that. What's left should be safe.

Now can we mark this section as "resolved"? -- Brangifer (talk) 19:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are all ignoring half of what the sources say in favour of your own misconceptions. The version with the removal of the bird information is outdated and incorrect. This is an encyclopedia not some witty repository of one-liners. Still I will not edit war about it. But Bullrangifer suggests another section so that is a place to start. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the point here. Sticking to the main and only point of that entry ("humans not coexisting with dinosaurs") is what counts. The existing reference documents the matter quite well. Was there anything in the refs that were removed with the other content that shed light on the point here, or were they about the other matters that sidetracked the whole matter? If there were any of them that were relevant to the "humans not coexisting with dinosaurs" matter, then you are more than welcome to restore them at the appropriate spot(s). Otherwise the idea of starting another section about birds=dinosaurs is still open. If you can find good sources without using any OR or SYNTH, then go for it! I'd love to learn from it. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering if we should add an item regarding the common misconception that Poland made cavalry charges against Nazi tanks in WWII? Unfortunately, there don't appear to be a lot of sources online (not in English anyway), but I do have this source.[7] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:30, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering if we should add an item about carrots improving eyesight. This was propaganda from World War II to explain why the Royal Air Force was so successful in fighting the Luftwaffe. Germans didn't understand the significance of radar so the British came up with a plausible explanation about carrots improving their pilots' eyesight. I haven't looked for any sources yet. I wanted to get some feedback first. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:38, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you can find reliable sourcing that currently it is a common misconception, it might be possible (I'd suggest posting the sources here first). A misconception from 65 years ago may not be very common today. For example, back then many people where I lived thought someone who is slender was unhealthy and needed to get some "meat on his bones" by eating lots of red meat. My personal opinion is that the carrot idea probably is not very widespread these days. But if you want to dig up some sources, that would be an interesting one. Cresix (talk) 23:51, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Vinegar has been used to fight infections since Hippocrates, who lived between 460-377 BC, prescribed it for curing persistent coughs. As a result, vinegar is popularly believed to be effective against infections. While vinegar can be an effective antibacterial cleaning agent on hard surfaces such as washroom tiles and countertops,[28] studies show that vinegar – whether taken internally or applied topically – is not effective against infections, lice,[29] or warts.[30]~ 72.187.199.192 (talk) ~