User talk:JzG: Difference between revisions

This user is an administrator on the English Wikipedia. (verify) This editor is a Most Plusquamperfect Looshpah Laureate and is entitled to display this Book of All Knowledge with Secret Appendix and Free Errata Sheet. This user is one of the 800 most active English Wikipedians of all time. This user is a Rouge admin. This user has been on Wikipedia for 19 years, 11 months, and 4 days. This user has been an admin for 18 years, 6 months, and 7 days. This user resists the POV pushing of lunatic charlatans.

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• In science, any compromise between a correct statement and a wrong statement is a wrong statement. Thanks, user:Stephan Schulz.
• My activity level is 53mKo (milli-Koavfs).
• Sad now. Special:Contributions/Geogre.
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• vGuyUK on X | SceptiGuy on X

Obligatory disclaimer

I work for Dell Computer but nothing I say or do here is said or done on behalf of Dell. You knew that, right?

Just a formality and because it is (AFAIK) a necessity for enforcement of sanctions; I know you know about this:

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding pseudoscience and fringe science, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.

Template:Z33

--Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 13:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Guess what? Involved editors are not allowed to issue DS notifications. I think you may be on the way to bannination, I certainly hope so. Guy (Help!) 21:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker)I don't think thats true, could you point me to where it says only uninvolved editors may notify? (This affects some other areas I am involved in is why I am poking my nose here) Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Awareness_and_alerts says "Any editor" FYIGaijin42 (talk) 21:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not that it particularly matters; Guy has participated in AE-related proceedings at some point in the past year.

I'm going to have to remember this quote somewhere for the future: "Wikipedians do not want to cite what the number 1 blog of world writes about them---it is kind of disturbing"[1] NW (Talk) 20:58, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Guy, I've asked at WP:AE that you be warned for misrepresenting scientific consensus re acupuncture's efficacy, as you did here and have numerous other times:

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#User:_JzG (diff)

--Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 13:39, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your hubris is exceeded only by your chutzpah. Guy (Help!) 14:08, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A few years ago, people expected the level of craziness around here would improve after a few years. After seeing this, it seems pretty clear that nothing has changed or things have worsened - I don't know which it is though. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ Ncmvocalist: I wouldn't say crazy, but it is illogical to assert a consensus when you have only sources that show a significant view -- let alone when those sources are contradicted by equally good sources. This is NPOV 101. I think we are seeing confirmation bias, cf. what Feynman said about it being so easy to fool one's self. Nobody is immune to that, and here we plainly have a situation where editors can't meet the burden of evidence, yet persist in asserting their stance. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 22:34, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So you keep assereting. Meanwhile, anatomy books ocntinue not to include meridians or acupoints. You are in denial, and you are taking the piss. Go away. Guy (Help!) 22:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If by "go away" you really mean I am unwelcome here, no problemo, but I've never been a dick toward you and am not starting now. I gotta say: you keep conflating TCM ideas with efficacy, but they're not equivalent. There's no reason that acu can't be effective just because there's no literal qi or meridians. The "mechanism" for eclipses used to be that a serpent swallowed the sun or moon, but they could still predict eclipses. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 23:04, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your lack of self-awareness is duly noted. I will be sure to double-check my understanding of the scientific consensus with Edzard next time I see him. Guy (Help!) 23:13, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I thought "WTF? WP:DTTR!" too when I got templated, but: [2]. .... You KNOW Ernst??? Golly, I'll be glad to quit worrying about finding sources, knowing that now that you can just ask the dude. :-) We'll need a new template for that: {{GuysaidErnstsaid |date= |topicarea= |consensus=}} --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 11:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a great idea if only I subscribed to the fallacy of appeal to authority, which I don't. I do, however, have a ready way of finding useful and pertinent information. Guy (Help!) 13:05, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It must be fun to know him, he seems like quite a character, a fine mind. The fact that the objects of his ire are not infrequently academics (there's even the word, quackademics) -- as opposed to off-the-grid quacks -- says to me that there's a big slice of mainstream POV that hasn't yet come around. .... But this AE thing is less than useful and I am sorry I brought it up there. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 19:35, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Middle 8:, what you've described is not what I was referring to as craziness. One example of craziness is that an administrator (who also acts for arbcom) seems to have focused his comment on JzG's "incivility" in-reply to your remarkably inappropriate invocation of discretionary sanctions here, and did not even bother to address concerns of tendentious editing. I have noticed this type of thing happening in earlier years and it was becoming less common, but it is mind-boggling that such a foolish approach is adopted even now. Until the source of the issue which is enabling and promoting this type of approach is found, little can be done. Is it the community, arbcom, Jimbo...? Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ncmvocalist, agree that the obsession with "incivility" is nuts. [3] Why? Why fiddle with process while content burns.... why arguing about stuff when the stakes are so low.... --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 19:35, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I had a go at editing the Universal Medicine page in my Sandbox as with all the edits that have gone on, it is starting to appear really disjointed. I've introduced further section headings and moved text around, but not deleted anything (hopefully, if I have it was a mistake on my part!). In respect of the requests for no further significant changes on the page, I did not want to apply anything to the page itself. Could you have a look over the draft and see what you think? 79616gr (talk) 16:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Nothing major, but in your AE statement, you put "anatomy" where I think you meant "acupuncture" -- 2nd graf after boxed quote from JIM.

BTW, I agree with you entirely. Best, BMK (talk) 23:20, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The result of this AE request, filed against you by Middle 8, is that both parties are to be warned. Accordingly, you are hereby warned to adhere to the standards of decorum expected of editors, especially those working in controversial topic areas; this includes abiding by the maxim of commenting on content, not on contributors. Further, you are warned not to invoke your status as an administrator during disputes—as I'm sure you are well aware, when discussing content, administrators are just any other editor, an their additional privileges are irrelevant. Bringing up yo administrator status can cause confusion as to which capacity your are acting in, and could potentially have a chilling effect on the willingness of non-administrators to engage with you in content discussions. Should you fail to adhere to this warning, there is a high probability that you will face substantive sanctions in the future. This warning will be logged as a discretionary sanction at the appropriate page, as will the warning to Middle 8. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The "chilling effect" is the vexatious attempt by Middle8 to gain an advantage in a content dispute through use of AE. There was no "incivility", merely terseness. Infinite patience with vexatious requests is an unreasonable demand. Guy (Help!) 08:57, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) Typical Lunatic Charlatan tactic, and an over the top warning. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 12:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, quite. The cited examples of "incivility" were actually just me pointing out Middle8's involvement with acupuncture is a COI and that he cannot possibly judge the neutrality of his edits. If we're not allowed to point out these obvious facts, how the fuck are we supposed to control POV-pushing? However, the very next time he abuses processs, he'll be in front of ArbCom. On past evidence it won't take long. Guy (Help!) 13:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Arbitration Committee has closed a case request by motion with the following remedy being enacted:

For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is fine, but we are rapidly running out of uninvolved admins. Guy (Help!) 12:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

JzG (Guy), a while ago you had the page Xenoglossy semi-protected. I believe you protected it in a wrong version. Now it is open and I want to return it to it's original shape before Oct 28, 2014 with all details of the cases and correct referencing. I don't like the fact that you side with disruptive editors who has eliminated most of the references on this page. I don't know how to solve my problem with you. Should I leave a message on Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents? 74.195.244.87 (talk) 18:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

you were the problem then, and it sounds very much as if you still are. Guy (Help!) 00:47, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How can I be the problem where I cite correctly to the valid references while other users erase major parts of the document and you side with them. You have to really spend more time in investigating who is right. You should not apply your personal taste to the matter. Just comply with Wikipedia policy. I referred to the valid references. Actually the same reference that was on the page. I did not add any new reference. Who is your supervisor? I have to talk to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.195.244.87 (talk) 19:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Guy, your mission as "quack buster" is well established, and you can believe me when I say it is not my intention to get in your way. I just ask that you please respect your position as admin and stop with the unnecessary insults and intimidation you have initiated against me on Griffin. If you will read the results of the ongoing Survey at Griffin Talk, you will see that I am not the only one who believes the changes are warranted. As you already acknowledged on the article's TP, you don't have a dog in this fight, so how do you explain your behavior and recent personal attacks and intimidation toward me? My only goal for Griffin is to expand the article per WP:PAG. I have every intention of adhering to DS, as well as to WP:BLP and WP:FRINGE, and expect the same from every other editor who collaborates with me in making Griffin a better article. It was because of my adherence to BLP policy and NPOV that I initially changed the lede, and it is still the reason I want to continue my work improving and expanding the article. No article in WP deserves to be a COATRACK, I don't care who you are, or what your motivations are for doing so. What's right is right, and getting the article right is our obligation as editors. If you and the others who are so set against me improving and expanding Griffin would simply AGF and allow me to work without the constant intimidation and insults, I believe you will be pleasantly surprised at the outcome. Jytdog has actually been quite helpful at times, and I maintain faith that we can achieve the desired result which will appease both sides without sacrifice. The problem seems to stem from the mistaken belief that I am somehow pushing a POV which favors CAM. That is absolutely NOT TRUE. I am bringing to WP the knowledge and experience of a 30+ year career as a successful publisher/writer/television producer, so please afford me the same respect I have afforded you. I thank you kindly for your consideration in this matter, and apologize if I have inadvertently caused you to acquire the wrong impression. Atsme☯^Consult 18:49, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Griffin is a conspiracy theorist, that's not our problem to fix. Of all the low-lifes in the world, the cancer quack is probably the worst, and you're right, that does not in any way endear him to me, but that is not an isolated item: he is a perfect example of crank magnetism at work. Guy (Help!) 19:17, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]