User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are Sj, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

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This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.

This user was banned by you some time ago, but does not currently have a {{banned}} template on her user page. The page history shows that this is due to this being the person's real name. I see no exemptions for real names in the banning policy. Is this appropriate procedure? – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 00:59, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly ought to be. Wikipedia tries to solicit ordinary people around the world to put in time and effort to expand the encyclopedia. They don't say that if you put some stuff on your user page they don't like that your name will come up with a big bold BANNED notice even 8 years after your last edit! If removing such notices for named individuals isn't policy, especially after a certain time has passed, then it should become so -- immediately. Wnt (talk) 01:10, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My preference would be for admins to be much more proactive and to block editors who, after a warning, insist on splattering this user is banned!!! around. The case mentioned here involves an editor who was blocked eight years ago, and now an IP wants to help the encyclopedia by reigniting a finished event. This is probably part of the series of get-jimbo posts, so I recommend the removal of this section. Johnuniq (talk) 01:43, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, that was me. I was using a proxy for other reasons at the time (which should probably be range-blocked, actually, like most of the other PIA proxies are) and failed to notice I wasn't logged in. This only came up as part of another discussion with someone about historical events, so I went to check out the page and noticed the oddity. I had thought that all banned users were supposed to have that notification on their page, so I asked about it. I'm less concerned about that specific user than about what the policy is (or should be) for cases where the user's name is their real name or their real name is announced on the page. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 02:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How would adding templates to the user page of an account that has not been active for eight years help the encyclopedia? Shaming editors is not the purpose of Wikipedia. Johnuniq (talk) 03:02, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I never suggested adding the template, nor did I intend to imply it. It was just patently obvious when looking at the two editors involved in the linked discussion that one's user page was different than the other. When I understood what was happening, I checked the policy and found that it didn't mention anything about that situation at all. I only brought the issue to Jimbo's talk page because he was directly involved; had that not been the case, we'd be on the banning policy talk page right now rather than here. Changing policy is probably the better way to go here, I agree, and I'll be happy to bring that up on the policy talk page—without any specific names—if that's what people feel should be done. And in that case, an administrator is quite welcome to revision-delete this entire conversation and we can put this whole mess of a conversation behind us and try to pretend it never happened. This was never about Jimbo or about the specific user, it was supposed to be about policy. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 03:37, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record, I've now started that conversation here and requested that the range I accidentally edited from be blocked on AN. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 04:00, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The user is banned, but edited under her real name so there are all kinds of reasons for being conservative. There's no realistic prospect she'll pass unnoticed if she does return, and she is less problematic than some of her erstwhile friends, one of whom ended up under a restraining order. Let sleeping dogs lie. Guy (Help!) 13:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This sort of thing shows why WP:IAR is one of our main rules. We should do the practical and kind and decent thing, even in cases where we somehow forgot about edge cases and interesting side possibilities when we wrote up a policy. I believe that [the section of the banning policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Banning_policy#User_pages] which talks about this should be updated to include a note about the importance of letting people walk away with dignity.

There are two reasons to care about letting people walk away with dignity. First, it's just the nice and polite thing to do. Additionally, long experience shows that many longterm trolls started out as mere banned users and then became worse and worse because it caused them emotional pain to be listed on the site as banned users. Such measures as tagging people's talk pages should always be assessed in terms of practical purpose - if there is a practical purpose, then that weighs in favor of doing it.

We (the people of the Internet) now collectively have a great deal more experience about user bans from various kinds of places. I think there's an argument for actually *deleting* and *salting* user pages of banned users. You wouldn't expect to see a nasty "This user is banned" notice at, for example, Facebook. They're just gone.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't agree more. Offering people a graceful exit is the right thing to do: just and pragmatic both. And yet I have started having trouble getting banned user accounts renamed, something that used to be done with minimal fuss. I think we need to be clear that any banned user who asks for their account to be renamed to some generic "former user 12345" kind of thing, should get it, unless there's good reason not to. We should just say: sorry this project is not the place for you, no hard feelings, it's just how it is.

Being human, of course, most of us (especially I) fail to do this some of the time. That's why we have policies and guidance: to remind us of how it should be done. Guy (Help!) 22:55, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Jimmy,

I'm sorry to disturb you.

• Could you please tell us what the meaning is of SUM in your quote "Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That’s what we’re doing." (Quotation Slashdot interview).

You could have meant for instance:

1. the total of all knowledge, or
2. the summary/gist etc. of all knowledge?

In publications etc. the Dutch chapter WMNL translates "the sum of all human knowledge" in a slogan simply as meaning "all knowledge". At Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#The_what.3F_of_all_knowledge.3F.3F there is a ongoing discussion without conclusion. So i ask you because only you can know what you meant. Thank you, Kind regards, Hansmuller (talk) 10:41, 3 July 2015 (UTC), Wikipedian in residence[reply]

Definitely my meaning is "summary". I wouldn't say "gist" as that word tends connote something about vagueness. But Wikipedia literally can't contain all knowledge for a number of reasons. And an encyclopedia is not, for example, a text book. And our entry on "China" for example really shouldn't be 10,000 pages long. It should provide a summary of what is known, and refer people to other sources to dig deeper. Where to stop is of course a very interesting question subject to thoughtful discussion - and of course Wikipedia can be (and is) much more comprehensive than traditional encyclopedias.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:20, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ha! I've misunderstood that phrase all these years. I assumed "sum" meant totality i.e. 3 is the sum of 1 plus 2. (Though I never thought it realisable, for the reasons given.) Was I alone? DeCausa (talk) 09:40, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yet it would be far better to have a site consist of many pathways to knowledge - instead of pretending that it consists of simple demonstrable fact. A very large number of articles currently present opinions as though they were fact - which causes a great deal of misinformation being presented to readers. Collect (talk) 16:26, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the correct answer is 42. --Boson (talk) 12:58, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It should be possible to compile a Wikipedia that contains some fraction of human knowledge, but such that via the internal wiki links everything gets defined in terms of only basic physics and mathematics. Such a Wikipedia can be transmitted to some alien civilization or it can be used to program AIs to make them understand us. Count Iblis (talk) 21:02, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is already used as input to natural language processing AIs as-is, one of which won on "Jeopardy" and another of which was recently shown to be able to provide more accurate Google results than PageRank, as discussed here back in March. Converting it to an interlingua is unnecessary. There will always be plenty of room for improvement, though. In twenty years when US copyright law gives contributors the right to rescind their license grant, I hope we will see authorship attribution not just by quantity, but weighted by readership and information-theoretic novelty ("surprise.") EllenCT (talk) 22:19, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Does anybody know if we are planning on updating the main page design and standard skin anytime soon? Anything towards looking more like Wikiwand would be a major improvement.♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:18, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Speak for yourself! The Wikiwand mobile interface may be prettier (albeit far more data-intensive) than the official Wikipedia mobile app, but their desktop site is horribly cluttered, even when you leave aside their tiresome habit of disregarding the layout of the article and second-guessing what the "appropriate" lead image should be regardless of what relevance it has to the subject. Remember, the Wikipedia Main Page needs be usable not just for users with largescreen monitors and broadband access, but in places like rural India which are still operating on dial-up, and to be usable on devices ranging from mobile phones to old 640x480 NTSC monitors. – iridescent 08:44, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does look cluttered now, they've overdone it, but I remember the original wikiwand design was at least more appealing. Also having the large main image, on wikipedia you could simply select an image you want to appear rather than the "second-guessing". The current design though is really looking dated in 2015. At least the wikiwand design idea with the larger main image and the content neatly filed down the side and the hover function with summaries would be an improvement anyway.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:25, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One of the biggest issues with this is the intentional shrinking of images. Take Giuseppe Verdi, where I'm currently in a rather desperate fight against everything being turned into ridiculously small 130px-wide thumbnails, overriding all user preferences. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 10:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tell me about it. The "everything needs to look the same" warriors have regrouped from their defeat over infoboxes and are making image size the new battlefront in their campaign against anything that doesn't conform to their own "rules are rules" mentality. – iridescent 12:04, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the sensible thing is an explicit guideline addition about not going too small. I think there's many cases where a big image is justified; it's hard to think of anything outside of a gallery where too small is justified. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 13:27, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm fine with the Main page staying just like it is. Jusdafax 12:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So are many people. that's why we never get anywhere because people don't like change.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:2015 main page redesign proposal/draft/Guy Macon. Number of comments at Wikipedia:2015 main page redesign proposal: Zero. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:14, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You could propose to give every editor $100,000 dollars on wikipedia and there'd still be disputes. Nearly ten years since it was changed. About time it was modernized. How something is presented has a big impact on general perception.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:11, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What qualifies as "modernizing"? Going by the trend at other websites, it appears to be adding 500 KB of JavaScript loaded from two dozen external sites—including, of course, all the ads and "social media" trackers—infinite scroll, "optimizing" your page titles and content for the best "shareability" and "viral buzz", and making everything "touchscreen-friendly" by adding a bunch of whitespace and removing text hyperlinks. Oh, don't forget Disqus comments and Facebook account integration. The general public doesn't look at the main page anyway; they get here through search engine results. Huh, I'm a little surprised infinite scroll is a redlink. Anyone think that deserves an article? --108.38.204.15 (talk) 11:06, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Improving the graphics and look/useability of the website so it looks like the year is 2015 rather than 2005.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:22, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• They can't even get Visual Editor to work with some of the skins they already have, I understand! I suspect we won't be seeing a new skin soon... Carrite (talk) 04:12, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

File:P.G._Wodehouse_-_My_Man_Jeeves_-_1st_American_edition_(1920_printing).jpg has no 3D elements that couldn't be trivially reproduced by simply applying a gradient and a bit of horizontal compression to the left side of the out-of-copyright book dust jacket. I say this should come under {{PD-Art}}, and, barring a legal requirement, would prefer not to crop out part of the dust jacket. However, a debate has opened up here. Would you mind weighing in? Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 08:27, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid that having read your description here, the description on the File; page, and the debate, I find that everyone seems to be taking for granted some well known facts about the provenance of the image that I don't know. The 'gradient' or 'spine' - what's that? What is the source of the image. What is the original? Is this a photo of a book? Just trying to get the full set of facts before offering any thoughts!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:49, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• It's a scanned copy of a 1920 edition of My Man Jeeves, taken from the Bonhams website (acceptable on Wikipedia as the underlying work is PD in the US, and the Foundation has held that faithful reproductions of two dimensional public domain works do not attract their own copyrights). The question is whether the book spine (i.e. the part of the book facing outwards when it's on a bookshelf) would be considered free as well, de minimis (too little to worry about), or a copyright violation which need to be cropped out altogether (like frames on paintings). Adam is saying that the effect of the scan fading out is easy to reproduce by digitally applying a gradient in photo editing software, and the shape of the dust jacket could be modified by digitally "squishing" part of the file. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:06, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I'm basically saying that we have a Public domain dust jacket, but a small bit on the left is tilted in around the spine of the book. However, the exact same effect produced by it being 3D could be added to a genuinely 2D scan of the dust jacket simply by applying a couple minor, and mathematically fairly simple image distortion. It's something like if this was the 2D public-domain work:

AAABBBCCCDDDEEEFFFGGGHHH...
AAABBBCCCDDDEEEFFFGGGHHH...
AAABBBCCCDDDEEEFFFGGGHHH...
AAABBBCCCDDDEEEFFFGGGHHH...

Then what we have in the image under discussion would be something like:

ABCCDDEEEFFFGGGHHH...
ABCCDDEEEFFFGGGHHH...
ABCCDDEEEFFFGGGHHH...
ABCCDDEEEFFFGGGHHH...

Obviously, that's not perfect, but I think it gives you an idea.

Come to think of it, I should probably also mention the other thing: This shows every sign of being a purely mechanical reproduction. Compare File:Charles_Kingley_-_1899_Westward_Ho!_cover_2_-_Original.tif which is just a book set on the scanner and scanned. The effects seen at the spine of the book are identical, though the difference between spine and cover is more pronounced in mine, as there was no dust jacket. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:23, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's not clear to me what any of this discussion about how easy it would be to make a 2D jacket look 3D has to do with anything. My point is that this image does not seem to be a straightforward case of the kind described over at Commons:Commons:When to use the PD-scan tag or Commons:Commons:When to use the PD-scan tag, which seems to be as close as we have to a policy on the Bridgeman v. Corel case we're relying on to use the image. Indeed, I think this image seems closer to some of the cases described there as not being eligible (coins, curved stained-glass windows, etc)- but I think we'd have to ask a lawyer to be sure either way. My uncertainty is justifies my opposition at FPC, and our collective uncertainty (if we have a collective uncertainty) is surely enough to question the retention of the image on Wikipedia. Josh Milburn (talk) 17:29, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@J Milburn: It shows clear signs of being produced through a purely mechanical process. Perhaps the issue here is not {{PD-ART}} but mere Threshold of originality, of which a purely mechanical copy has none. That's actually even explicitly mentioned in Bridgeman: In a section that begins by quoting Laddie, the quote of which includes the text: "For this reason it is submitted that a person who makes a photograph merely by placing a drawing or painting on the glass of a photocopying machine and pressing the button gets no copyright at all;" the judge's discussion explicitly invokes that point: "Plaintiff nevertheless argues that the photocopier analogy is inapt because taking a photograph requires greater skill than making a photocopy and because these transparencies involved a change in medium. But the argument is as unpersuasive under British as under U.S. law." - in otherwords, mechanical copying is less copyrightable than a photograph of a 2D work would be. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks. Obviously I'm not a legal expert, and my opinion on this sort of thing should carry no very special weight. So I'll just enumerate some of the factors I would use in making this decision. First, it looks very much to me like someone just jammed the book on a scanner and pushed the button. So no new copyright would arise from that, for sure. If there is any reason to think that someone took a flat image and then modified it to look like a 3d image, then I suppose that might give rise to a marginally plausible claim of creativity and copyright, but as has been pointed out, it's just applying a gradient in photoshop so not really particularly interesting or creative. And it's quite unlikely that is what happened anyway. As a practical matter, there is also the question of value and the question of how likely the source is to even care about this - do they regard it as a valuable creative work or is it just a quickly scanned image on their website for the purpose of auctioning this historical object. If it's the latter (it is, I think) then the most likely chain of thought they will have is that it's a good thing to have images of things they sell in Wikipedia - indeed, in another context, I can see us having a tedious debate about COI and whether they were spamming us (if they uploaded this and dozens of similar images and peppered them around).

One thing that our work with GLAM institutions has taught us is that we almost certainly need not take an adversarial attitude. Probably someone in the UK (from Wikimedia UK perhaps) could reach out to Bonhams and say "Hey, you have a lot of basic photos of important historical things on your website, here's a list of reasons why you might want to release those images under a free license or mark which ones you regard as being in the public domain." Done well, such requests could do a lot of good.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:09, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Are you really jimmy wales. Wow, I don't understand why you are editing wikipedia being the founder of wikipedia?. Please respond!!!!. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.102.228.2 (talk) 10:03, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Jimbo! I ask you give help with explanation. Some number of users uses remote administration software (we have the same range of IPs by this reason). We are the small band of users which edit articles about the ROC. One from this group was blocked. After this, any user who has the same range of IPs, becomes sock almost automaticly (sock - motivation). Yesterday was made very useful contribution (if only grammar has trouble). But this contribution was removed (reason - see above). I ask you help to restore the contribution (was in prepare several hours!). Importance of my edit: ardent enemies - dear friends currently (main successor of Lenin and the ROC). And it was showed very good. Thank you! MONCK1852 (talk) 13:13, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]