Talk:Lie-to-children: Difference between revisions

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Article milestones Date Process Result April 9, 2004 Guild of Copy Editors Copyedited April 23, 2016 Good article nominee Listed April 8, 2005 Guild of Copy Editors Copyedited February 4, 2016 Articles for deletion No consensus February 28, 2016 Guild of Copy Editors Copyedited

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Template:Find sources notice

At the most recent deletion discussion some voters suggested keeping the Wittgenstein's ladder part and deleting the lie-to-children part. No one supported keeping the latter. I have done the former, by removing the very limited material on Wittgenstein's latter to a new stub. The rest of the article is based on The Science of Discworld and passing mentions. I have checked again and there are no sources. Please delete or redirect this article. Pinging AfD participants: L.tak, Rhododendrites, James500, and also Aoidh who objected to redirecting it. --Sammy1339 (talk) 02:12, 5 February 2016 (UTC) Also Ganly. --Sammy1339 (talk) 02:14, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I have no objection to redirecting to Wittgenstein's ladder. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:23, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• The issue is that's is 6 one way, half a dozen the other. Wittgenstein's ladder wasn't even an article until some of this article was dumped over. I'd like to try to improve this one and trim out what doesn't belong, not least of all because this article has more to work with than a single sentence. - Aoidh (talk) 02:42, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• That's fine, but there are no sources. I hope I'm not being rude, but I don't see how this is happening. It is a neologism from a barely-notable book, which got a few passing mentions over the years in various places, probably because it had a Wikipedia article. --Sammy1339 (talk) 02:45, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• @Aoidh: Could you elaborate on how it's 6 one way, half dozen of the other? I think it's safe to say that if the subject were solely Lie-to-children, untangled from Wittegenstein's ladder, that there would be fairly straightforward consensus to delete or, most likely, redirect. I don't see anyone arguing to keep lie-to-children, and only expressing reservations because of Wittgenstein's ladder. Now that the latter was spun out, this article could be renominated, but it seems more efficient to just redirect and, on the off-chance sources can be found for "lie-to-children" as a distinct concept from Wittgenstein's ladder, it could always be recreated. I certainly don't see a need to delete the history. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:53, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Just as a note, if text from this article was copied, it cannot be deleted for attribution reasons so the article's history would have to remain intact. I'll respond tomorrow, as I have work (sorry). - Aoidh (talk) 03:03, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Struck deletion suggestion. I suggest redirecting to The Science of Discworld, but not Wittgenstein's ladder because I think the latter association, as well as the notion that this is a phrase widely used outside of the novel, originated on Wikipedia. --Sammy1339 (talk) 03:33, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on attribution: If the other article was created by copying content from here, and the resulting consensus is that this article here no longer should exist but be a redirect to that other article, then this article here should be renamed to there and its off-topic content removed. That preserves attribution of the content that remains. That's a pretty common outcome when retaining a kernel of an otherwise-muddled and non-worthy-as-such mess. But copying and redirecting (rather than deleting) so that the attribution is retained behind the redirect is reasonable too. DMacks (talk) 06:39, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• My provisional view is that it would be preferable to merge the material relating to Science of Discworld somewhere than to blank it without merger. James500 (talk) 06:02, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I tend to agree that there is not enough sourcing for a standalone article. Merger to either Science of Discworld or Wittgenstein's ladder (preferably the former) would be appropriate. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 18:05, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. This article should be kept where it is as its own standalone independent article on this subject. I've researched through archival research databases. I've successfully found independent significant secondary source coverage from multiple different academic and scholarly peer reviewed books and reference journals. Thank you, — Cirt (talk) 18:24, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Cirt: Can you actually say explicitly what the new sources are? --Sammy1339 (talk) 18:30, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reply on status of ongoing research: Yes. But from my personal past experience on Wikipedia that would be a frivolous endeavor. Unfortunately, what is most effective in civil discourse is to simply improve the article itself with reliable secondary sources in order to demonstrate argumentation for retention and avoid having the article be attempted at being disappeared off of the face of Wikipedia. Current progress of research into multiple scholarly and academic sources that are peer reviewed as well as academic journals and books is  ongoing.... Thank you for your patience with this matter, — Cirt (talk) 18:43, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Update: I believe this now appears to be  resolved, per Sammy1339 giving me The Article Rescue Barnstar for my Quality improvement efforts on this article, at DIFF. Thank you, — Cirt (talk) 23:19, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Some additional sources at links above. :)

Cheers,

— Cirt (talk) 18:23, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Added one. Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL. — Cirt (talk) 19:11, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Added another. Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL. — Cirt (talk) 06:57, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Lie-to-children

I've embarked on a Quality improvement project for Lie-to-children, first introduced as a phrase in The Science of Discworld.

If you've got recommendations for additional secondary sources that could be utilized to further improve the quality of the article, please suggest them here on the talk page.

Current status: Further research in several additional secondary sources including more scholarly and academic sources such as peer reviewed publications and academic journals is  ongoing......

Thank you for your time,

— Cirt (talk) 02:56, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The second paragraph ends in trailing quotes, without any opening quotes before. It's not clear exactly when the quoted text starts, so I've left as-is; if someone more familiar with this could tidy the phrase, that would be great. Aawood (talk) 12:40, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your helpful participation here. I'm confused, 2nd paragraph of which subsection? Could you give us a copy of the text you are referring to, here on the talk page? Thank you, — Cirt (talk) 13:01, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The very second paragraph of the article, in the lede. 'The term was originally coined in the 2000 book The Science of Discworld by Terry Pratchett, Jack Cohen, and Ian Stewart. Pratchett, Cohen and Stewart wrote that the phrase referred to: a statement that is false, but which nevertheless leads the child's mind towards a more accurate explanation, one that the child will only be able to appreciate if it has been primed with the lie".' Note the quotation mark after 'lie', at the end, with no prior quotes. Aawood (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed it. Thank you! @Aawood:Look better? — Cirt (talk) 19:10, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's great, good job. Aawood (talk) 11:58, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! — Cirt (talk) 12:03, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The concept of lie-to-children was discussed at-length in 2000 by Andrew Sawyer in the Hungarian Journal of English and American Studies, where the subject itself was included in the article title: "Narrativium and Lies-to-Children: 'Palatable Instruction in 'The Science of Discworld'".

• Sawyer, Andy (2000). "Narrativium and Lies-to-Children: 'Palatable Instruction in 'The Science of Discworld'". Hungarian Journal of English and American Studies (HJEAS). 6 (1). Centre for Arts, Humanities and Sciences (CAHS), acting on behalf of the University of Debrecen CAHS: 155–178. ISSN 1218-7364. Retrieved 28 February 2016. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help)

Enjoy,

— Cirt (talk) 04:49, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've nominated this article for Good Article quality consideration, at Good Article nominations. — Cirt (talk) 23:48, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We want to make sure to emphasize and differentiate to the reader that the term originated first with Cohen and Stewart in their first two (2), NON fiction books. — Cirt (talk) 17:31, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Reil:I made some tweaks to try to improve with copy editing, let me know if that looks alright to you, bearing in mind I'd like to emphasize the first two (2) books are NON fiction and written solely by scientists. :) — Cirt (talk) 17:43, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I thought you were going for; it was just felt a bit bulky, y'know? I like your more recent take on it. Your recent work on the article's been putting a lot of substance into it, which is good, given the recent movement to delete it. Cheers! Reil (talk) 17:46, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for the kind words about my Quality improvement efforts to this article, Reil, and thank you for your helpful copy edits. Most appreciated! — Cirt (talk) 17:48, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article had a prior GA Review and was unfortunately not promoted to WP:GA quality at that time. Suggestions on further quality improvement may be seen at: Talk:Lie-to-children/GA1. — Cirt (talk) 23:20, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]