Talk:H-1B visa: Difference between revisions

I wonder if the 3 links lately [added] anonymously really bear enough information to be present on the page. This looks more like propaganda too me.

http://www.geocities.com/dbdoggle is particularly dreadful -- its absurd premise is that bussiness's goal is to keep workers (especially white males over 30) unproductive and unemployed, so that they can use these shell companies to collect government grants. http://www.geocities.com/dbdoggle/?200619#nasa is particularly amusing. 71.139.55.50 23:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I recently changed employers, I was on an H1-B, I'm now working for my new employer as we wait for the new petition (a.k.a "h1-transfer") is done. In the meantime, I received a way way better offer for a job. Can I apply for a second h1-b as I wait for this one and leave my current job? or should I wait for the current petition to be approved until I start the next petition process? --69.112.255.195 21:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I followed them and on two I had to search around for info on H-1B visas, and then it was only to oppose them. They are not serious discussions of the merits, or even demerits, of the visas, if that is what you were looking for. (speaking of anonymity - don't forget to sign your own 'talk' page additions). Willmcw 22:35, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The programme allows for more than just engineers, scientists and programmers. It's open in principle to any professional with a relevant degree, qualification or experience. For instance, I work in the USA on the H-1B visa as a financial risk manager on the strength of a physics degree, MBA and ~8 years of experience. I'll try to find time to correct this with somre references if nobody beats me to it. Simon

Computer disciplines (job codes 030 - 039) make up over 50% of all H-1B non-immigrants. The next highest category is either engineering or health workers, depending on the year. Among the 3.6 million H-1B admissions, there are very, very few scientists, mathematicians, or micro-biologists, as the propaganda begs. See globalism. Incidently, I am one of those replaced citizens. Danarothrock 10:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the an H1-B holder can only (legally, haha) work for the employer listed on the visa. What about other sources of income such as self-employing jobs (e.g. tutoring, website design), investing in stocks, or selling goods on ebay? What if the person has not yet converted to an H1-B and still on OPT? Does that change anything?

--Chochopk 05:36, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This article was recently edited to suggest that the locking in of an H-1B visa holder to a particular employer because of green card processing is a thing of the past. The person doing the edit correctly noted that PERM allows for fast labor certification, and AC21 allows a person to switch jobs after the I-485 has been pending for at least 180 days. However, this person neglects to mention that due to priority date retrogression, many people are ineligible to file I-485 at the current time. Thus, they may well still be stuck with their sponsoring employer for many years. There are also many old labor certification cases pending under pre-PERM rules. If those labor certifications are withdrawn and replaced with PERM applications, processing times will improve in a major way but the person will also lose their favorable priority date. Priority date has become a major issue in employment based green card cases in a way that it previously wasn't. Thus the employee often still remains locked in with a specific employer for an extended period, although the legal specifics as to why have changed a bit. Thus, the neutrality of the recent edit to this page is disputed.

--Dash77 07:24, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point, but disagree on the scope. As I understand it, the latest USCIS memo on AC21 implementation and green card portability allows the H1B holder to change jobs once their I140 is approved and I485 is filed but unadjudicated for six months. The only persons ineligible to file I485 in the last few months (as you mentioned) are Indian and Chinese applicants for whom priority dates have retrogressed in the EB2 and EB3 categories. H1B's from other countries are generally unaffected. It's likely that this is only a short term issue as the Senate Judiciary Committee has already voted to take action to address the priority date retrogression for these cases. (see http://www.competeamerica.org/news/alliance_pr/20051020_visashort.html)

(above comment was unsigned, by an IP editor)

• If "CompeteAmerica" (formerly known as American Business for Legal Immigration or ABLI, a lobbying coalition of hi-tech companies that promote expansion of the H-1B visa program) is as reliable with its prognostications about H-1B legislation as it is with the "factual" information on its website, then the issue may in fact be a longer-term issue after all and will need fixing.--Ray921 03:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I removed an appallingly opinionated paragraph from the "US policy on maximum duration" section, which effectively insinuated that H-1Bs were third-worlders looking for a shortcut to US permanent residency. Pretty typical paranoia, but extremely non-NPOV. Jmason 18:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• The removed text had a viewpoint, but a revision may have been preferable to deletion. Does anyone know the percentage of H1-B holders who apply for permanent residency? --Ray921 17:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the % who apply for PR off hand. One thing to consider - it is not just developing world H-1B holders who apply for PR - those of the developed world do it too. Robert Brockway 21:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The retrogression issue and an attempt to "recapture" unused visa numbers from previous years was added to the Senate bill late in the process, so that the controversial changes were less likely to be detected. However, due to the House Majority leader, Rep. Tom DeLay being under indictment for violation of State of Texas election rules barring particular uses of corporate money, DeLay was unable (or unwilling) to push for passage in the House. Restrictionist groups such as http://www.NumbersUSA.com also played a role in having the immigration provisions stripped from the bill that emerged from the House - Senate Conference Committee that was signed by President Bush.

A general note regarding the lack of neutrality of this article: There is scant mention made of the huge direct and opportunity costs incurred by a trained U.S. technical professional when they are permanently displaced by a H-1B visa holder. As one of these professionals, who has twice testified in the U.S. House of Representatives, I view the article as extremely biased. We are neglected stakeholders. The article tone is closer to "Wikipedia endorses this visa program."

Here are some items to lend more balance:

http://www.AnAmericanScam.com My website documents some of the connections between corrupt lobbyist Jack Abramoff and corporations such as Microsoft that have procured expansions of the controversial H-1B visa program. ____________________________________________________________

Watch for my upcoming book: An American Scam - How Special Interests Undermine American Security with Endless "Techie" Gluts e-mail the author for a gratis 37 - page special Congressional Summary, updated in January, 2006 ____________________________________________________________

See my two published articles in The Social Contract. Please view the much more readable PDF version, whose link appears on the page.

Colleges have become Career Destruction Factories (Spring, 2005) http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=1313&terms=

How NOT to 'Solve' the Social Security Problem (Summer, 1999) http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=810&terms=

____________________________________________________________

Dr. Gene Nelson Dallas, Texas USA c0030180[at]airmail.net Please substitute "@" for "[at]"

_______

Given that most H-1Bs are from India or China, the program continues to look like indentured servitude.

-dave chapman

I have added some of Dash77's remarks to the article. Does it now address your concerns? Mamawrites ^{& listens} 22:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

PS -- I have also added sections to the article, and generally wikified it according to WP:MOS. Mamawrites ^{& listens} 22:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

While I havn't met any Chinese on an H-1B visa, The Indians on H-1Bs I'm aware of are all IT workers and their salaries are competive. 168.166.196.40 21:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All of the Indians on H-1Bs I'm aware of are working in IT for salaries equivalent to trainees. As they are being trained on the job, it is appropriate. Danarothrock 01:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

is there any data out there that breaks down the H1-B visa holders by nation of origin? Mokwella 23:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• yes, either dept of labor or immigration or homeland security has a stats page like this, i think. SchmuckyTheCat 07:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mokwella, good question. I will add it to the main story. Danarothrock 01:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since the effort to get this added has stalled, let me clarify here that the number of new work visas for citizens of each country is broken down by visa category in the annual "Handbook of Immigration Statistics" published by the Dept. of Homeland Security starting in 2002 or in the annual "Statistical Yearbook" published by INS. Table numbers vary by year, but the data you seek can be accessed by choosing "Temporary Admissions" and browsing for the desired table (stored in Excel format after FY1997), entitled something like "Nonimmigrants admitted as temporary workers, exchange visitors, and intracompany transferees by region and country of citizenship."

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/yearbook/YrBk04TA.htm (select Table 25 for FY 2004) and either http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/archives/index.htm#yearbook or http://www.ailc.com/shared/statistics/archives/index.htm (for fiscal years prior to 2004):

FY2003, Table 25; FY2002, Table 27; FY2001, Table 38; FY2000, Table 38; FY1999, Table 38; FY1998, Table 40; FY1997, Table 40, p. 122 of pdf file, repeats the information for FY1996 (data for FY1997 have never been published, though in FY1998 there is a buried comment in the text suggesting that they were destroyed).

I am unaware of electronic availability of the INS Statistical Yearbook prior to 1996, but would appreciate any reference.--Ray921 04:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Back in 1998, Dr. Norman Matloff of UC Davis testified to Congress about the Software Labor Shortage (or rather it's lack as he indicated). I always liked his argument and was wondering if this would be an appropriate addition to the 'External Links' section (I'd originally considered Outsourcing but this page seems like a better match). I was considering something like this:

• Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage by Dr. Norman Matloff, Department of Computer Science University of California at Davis. Testimony Dr. Matloff presented to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Immigration in 1998. Updated through 2002.

Does this seem appropriate to everyone? --KNHaw 04:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, since I did not hear any objections I added it to the article. --KNHaw 22:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The common misconception section should be removed. If it isn't a copyvio, it's still a completely inappropriate format for Wikipedia. Any useful material should be integrated into the article proper. Superm401 - Talk 02:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and I am removing it now. It doesn't belong and is extremely POV, biased in favor of H1B.

I cannot see how a list of sites of dubious quality with little or no verifiable information such as that contained in under "Anti-H-1B sites" has any place in this article. I think that having this list of links violates the spirit of NPOV. -GLG

Or at least we should have a list of "pro H1B" sites, such as immigrant rights sites, but I do favor removing this list altogether. Quase 21:08, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pro-H1B sites are not encyclopedic because the only ones I know of are commercial/spam "for a big fee, we'll help you navigate all the visa requirements and immigrate to the United States!!!" sites. Anti-H1B sites are encyclopedic because they provide sourced critical information on this program including firsthand testimonies from those American workers who have been directly harmed and displaced from their jobs.

I do not know if you understand this but Wikipedia is supposed to provide information, not viewpoint. Eg. in this article the first line is ' H1B is a controversial program.....' Compare that with

' H1B is a program...... There have been controversies about it....'

Maybe the extreme urge to pour in one's extreme personal vitriol / frustration leads people to not see the above. Please, this is not a blog or a discussion forum, this is an encyclopedia. Step back, look at what you just edited, and judge for yourself if that sounds like information or your personal rant. How on earth can a website titled 'he claims to have seen H1B fraud first hand' be encyclopedic? I am sorry but personal websites of unnamed people with random unsubstantiated rant is not encyclopedic.

The fact that there is so much polarized bickering *here* is documentation alone that it is "controversial". Web searches will verify that it is controversial. The controversy itself even made the cover of Information Week, if I am not mistaken (or was it Computer World?). Anyhow, here is an example from Computer World titled "H-1B Remains a Hot-Button Issue"[1]

I removed a paragraph I thought was POV (it included text such as "Immigration policies have Constitutional protections of American jobs, wages, and workplaces. Willful violation of these protections is a major fraud against the United States."). I also took out a large unformatted table, though that could possibly be wikified and and included. Before replacing this content, please discuss it here first. Superm401 - Talk 19:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Superm401, I don't know the poster of the table you removed, but restoring the deleted table (with linearly interpolated values replacing his minimal values for missing data and perhaps inclusion of O-1 visas, together with a graph to let the reader judge the appropriateness of the interpolations) would add tremendously to the article for many reasons, not the least of which is to offset the bias in the selective treatment and minimization of the number of H-1B (and other) visas exhibited in the current text of "Quotas . . . ." That section admittedly concedes that there are "exceptions" to the cap for some workers, but conveys no information about how dramatic those exemptions from the cap actually are -- so that the number of H-1B visas actually granted in recent years with the progressively expanding exemptions, has been far more than the so-called cap, making the "exceptions" almost the rule. Thus in 2003, the "cap" for granting H1B visas reverted to 65,000 for FY 2004, but the government issued 386,821 H-1B visas for FY 2004, soaking up whatever growth in technical jobs there may have been. In addition, in FY 1999 and 2005, despite retroactive increases in the cap, INS/DHS still substantially violated the cap on the H-1Bs still subject to a cap. Does everyone understand why citing only the "cap" is misleading?

One of the problems in discussing these issues is that the US government has been lackadaisical in collecting the data -- e.g., their report for FY 1997 reported that the FY 1996 data for H-1Bs was unavailable at press time and in 1999 they finally announced without further explanation that reliable FY 1997 H-1B data were unavailable; I'm so far unable to find any published data for H-1Bs issued for fiscal years 1986-1988 and 1991-1994. The data required to make sound, intelligent judgments on the program and its effects without wading through reams of text, are often simply not collected.

I have also created some tabular information based on raw data from NSF that might I might be able to contribute, but would appreciate any guidance on how to "wikify" it if I can find the time. [I'm a newbie at this, so please be gentle when pointing out my Wikipedia policy transgressions.--Ray921 21:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC).[reply]

I think that you should add to the introduction that a Bachelor's degree in a field related to the offered position is a minimum requirement for the visa category. -GG

• The statement is generally true for applicants in science and engineering, who constitute about 90% of the H-1B recipients, but is not necessarily true -- the reality is far more confused than that because the H-1B is such a desirable visa.

• H-1B visas are issued for fashion models, entertainers, artists, writers, workers in religion and theology, and officials, who do not necessarily require a bachelor's degree. Presumably the H-1B is sought rather than the P-1, P-2, P-3, Q-1, or R-1, (which are special work visas for athletes, entertainers, artists, writers, and religious occupations) because one can apply for permanent residence while working here under that visa; they may also be longer-term visas, but I have not checked on that.

• In FY 2000, level of education was unknown for 10.1% of all approved new H-1B applicants; 2.4% of the remaining 89.9% of approved H-1B visa applicants lacked a bachelor's degree. If Citizenship and Immigration Services (CIS) approves that many H-1Bs without even knowing educational attainment, it's hard to call it an unqualified minimum requirement.

• It should also be noted that the majority of H-1B visas granted in technical areas are granted to people with only a bachelor's degree; in FY 2000, ignoring the 8.5% whose education level is unknown, only 36% of new H-1Bs were given to holders of master's degrees or PhDs.

(Data source available at http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/repsstudies/h1b/index.htm , which must be accessed through http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/aboutus/repsstudies/index.htm )--Ray921 17:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I wasn't cherry-picking the results above, but the results for FY2003 show the government has drastically reduced the number of H1Bs issued to new applicants not stating their educational attainment to less than 0.1% (down from 8.5% in FY2000). For those of known educational attainment, 2.2% stated less than a bachelor's degree. At least the bureacracy is now making a better effort to see that the boxes are filled in on their forms before issuing the visas. --Ray921 18:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"H-1B workers are also not eligible to any Social Security or Medicare unless they retire in the US, which by the very definition of the temporary nature of the visa, is unlikely.[3]"

Those unfamiliar with this subject would think the cited POV sentence quite reasonable, perhaps supported by the fact that H-1B is classified as a "Non-Immigrant Visa."

The above-cited statement is at best a questionable POV and should be deleted. This article has somehow omitted mention of one of the great attractions of the H-1B visa -- the fact that the H-1B may legally be used as a steppingstone to US permanent residency ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Permanent_Resident_Card ) under the doctrine of dual intent. Therefore in view of my personal observation and in the absence of statistical evidence that few H-1B visa holders convert to permanent resident status, this statement is very dubious. Can anyone provide government data on the frequency of conversion of H-1B visa holders to permanent resident status? --Ray921 10:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The section "Taxation status of H-1B workers" reads:

"H-1B workers are legally required to pay the same taxes as any other US resident, including Social Security and Medicare.[2] Any person who spends more than 183 days in the US in a calendar year is a tax resident and is required to pay US taxes on their worldwide income. From the IRS perspective, it doesn't matter if that income is paid in the US or elsewhere. If an H-1B worker is given a living allowance, it is treated the same by the IRS as any other US resident. In some cases, H-1B workers pay higher taxes than a US citizen because they are not entitled to certain deductions (eg. head of household deduction amongst many others). H-1B workers are also not eligible to any Social Security or Medicare unless they retire in the US, which by the very definition of the temporary nature of the visa, is unlikely.[3]"

• The preceding paragraph is as convincing as saying that America has no illegal immigrants since all who enter the country must do so with government permission. Side agreements, kickbacks, deposit of funds beyond a basic living allowance into foreign bank accounts, whose records are unavailable to the IRS, make it difficult or impossible for the IRS to audit.
• Can the wife of an H-1B worker claim the head of household deduction?
• Do H-1B workers really face the same risk for income tax evasion if they intend to leave the US less than seven years (the period over which the IRS can audit returns) after their filing date?
• Anyway, I suggest a more objective reduction of the entire paragraph, something like this:

"Any person who spends more than 183 days in the US in a calendar year is considered a resident for tax purposes and by law must pay US income tax on his worldwide income (including living allowance) for that year in addition to Social Security and Medicare."

Does that seem NPOV? --Ray921 01:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just made a number of factual corrections to this article. I do not believe that any of these changes alter the tone/bias level but IMHO the numbers should be correct.

1. I have have spelled out the actual quota as 65,000 + 20,000 + unlimited 2. The first increase occurred in 1998 as more precision than late 90's 3. The increase was to 115,000 rather than 130,000 [Here I also took the liberty of removing some some commentary on these increases that was opinion rather than fact.] 4. I put down the actual increase contained as part of the "comprehensive immigration reform" and SKIL bill.

This article needs a bit of serious editing as it is starting to get repetitive.