Talk:Critical Role: Difference between revisions

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A member of the Guild of Copy Editors, Dthomsen8, reviewed a version of this article for copy editing on November 2015. However, a major copy edit was inappropriate at that time because of the issues specified below, or the other tags now found on this article. Once these issues have been addressed, and any related tags have been cleared, please tag the article once again for {{copyedit}}. The Guild welcomes all editors with a good grasp of English. Visit our project page if you are interested in joining! Please address the following issues as well as any other cleanup tags before re-tagging this article with copyedit: awaiting deletion decision

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: https://www.destructoid.com/inside-critical-role-the-live-d-d-show-led-by-voices-you-might-recognize-342464.phtml

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This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... there's no wikipedia page yet for this greatest streaming D&D show

Hey, that contested deletion was a pretty weak claim, whoever wrote it. But yes, Critical Role is credible and significant. Article's messy right now, but that's beside the point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.77.151.201 (talk) 11:18, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. Someone fix that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.77.151.201 (talk) 09:54, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The reasons for put forth for speedy deletion are nebulous at best. There is a significant community that supports Critical Role, and several wikia pages, as well as fan sites that abound. All that is needed is some cleaning in format and it would be fine. 75.213.130.74 (talk) 15:59, 24 October 2015 (UTC) KennefRiggles[reply]

With all the disambiguation pages for phrases, pronouns, acronyms or initialisms, terminology, and so forth, difficulty in finding this article is going to be as per normal for Wikipedia, but that concern is noted.--64.134.222.18 (talk) 23:11, 24 October 2015 (UTC)Jason T. Reimche[reply]

Seeing as Critical Role has helped the Geek&Sundry community raise almost $300,000 in the passed seven months as of the day of this postfor charities, I believe the page should not be deleted because this page has not had sufficient time to reach its potential and should be allowed to remain on the website. They are an amazing group of people who entertain thousands of people every week. At around 3:38:00 in episode 30 of Critical Role, Overlord Zach presents the amount of money contributed by Geek&Sundry to charity. I don't know how to cite that properly. If someone could do that for me i would appreciate it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AFellowCritter (talk • contribs) 18:17, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It may be more productive at this time to comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Critical Role than here. 65.126.152.254 (talk) 19:07, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have been working on creating this page for a while, and finally feel it is ready to go live. A previous WP entry for the show was the subject of an AfD discussion. The article was eventually deleted, but with encouragement to resubmit when more mainstream coverage was available. I have drastically revised the page, added the "(web series)" modifier to the title to resolve the name commonality concern, and added a number of additional media references. I am happy to hear all feedback, as I am a new editor and really want to do this properly. Gamma Liz (talk) 21:33, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Should the upcoming sourcebooks by Green Ronin Publishing be mentioned in the article? -- 84 (talk) 15:01, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly? I don't see a reason to include anything under a physical product is available. — Huntster (t @ c) 20:31, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In a recent comment made by Matt Mercer, the one-shot that began the game was actually using 4th edition rules, only getting converted to pathfinder after players expressed interest in continuing. Not sure how that would best be altered, but it should probably be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.230.115 (talk) 17:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

incorrect. they started with pathfinder and then converted to 5e once the show began. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.212.64.164 (talk) 22:32, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, they're right. They played 4th E for the one off, then swapped to Pathfinder for the continuing campaign. Darquis (talk) 06:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

no they didn't. they started w/ pathfind and converted to 5e when the show started. get your facts straight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.151.123.139 (talk) 02:10, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we should tell Matt to get his facts straight too? https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/667457335917342720 Darquis (talk) 07:14, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you all provide reliable sources for your claims?--QueerFilmNerd (talk) 02:41, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"On January 11, 2018, the second campaign's first episode peaked at 135 thousand viewers on Twitch and YouTube compared to the first campaign finale's 40,000 viewers"

I'm quite sure that the finale of campaign 1 opened with about 115,000 viewers on twitch alone and over 12,000 on youtube. There's even a con where Matt Mercer mentions that right before streaming the episode, Travis saw the number of viewers for the first time and told the others, stunned. (Then refreshed just in case and it had gone up by a couple of thousand, right before the stream started and they had to compose themselves) So this is definitely wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MatrixM (talk • contribs) 18:03, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That sentence is tagged as needing citation, Though it's not a reliable source the figures may have come from the subreddit.[1] Do you have a citation for your statement? For example; have Critical Scope have uploaded the con talk to YouTube? If so, the video's URL and time stamp should be enough for WP:V. I'm not sure if it's even possible, but don't get tempted into collating the views from the Twitch, Alpha and YouTube streams — as that would count as original research. Little pob (talk) 12:18, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I typed up a quick blurb for the "secret" stretch goal but was unable to find any good secondary sources that picked it up. In case anyone else is able to find one or if consensus feels a primary would be okay in this instance we can slip it in somewhere. Maybe it would be good as a note next to the "last stretch goal" bit?

"On Episode 106 of Talks Machina Sam Riegel stated there is an "unofficial" stretch goal. If they hit $10 million then they would record or otherwise publish Travis Willingham going through a haunted house." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frapsity (talk • contribs) 04:26, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(I'm a couple of episodes behind currently so haven't seen the clip in question.) Per WP:PRIMARY: primary sources aren't banned per se, but should only be used for statements of fact without interpretation. With that in mind; something along the lines of Sam said "[verbatim quote]" would be reasonable IMO. Little pob (talk) 09:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding it once it was published on the Kickstarter. Sam rambled a bit and it was going to be hard to quote so I left it out and hoped we could find a source.Frapsity (talk) 07:20, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

People sneakily trying to erase his involvement in the project to the point him not being mentioned in the current version of the article even once. This commit may be reasonable one since being a 1/4 part of 2 seasons show may not be enough for an entry in the main cast table, but this one lacks any good will and is in clear violation of rules, since it brings the not applicable WP:ORIGINAL as the removal reason and falsely describes the changes. I am reverting the later commit and asking for active contributors' vigilance, since I am most probably not going to monitor this article for long. 77.1.94.167 (talk) 08:55, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:V, specifically WP:PROVEIT, states it's not appropriate to restore unsourced material. The Destructiod source[2] proves Orion's previous involvement; but gives no leaving date, episode involvement, or mention of his character. I will reword your restored entry until a source with that information can be found. Little pob (talk) 10:52, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the studio's CCO's word, publicully announced in the show itself a valid source? 77.1.94.167 (talk) 11:50, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is valid; but it's also a WP:PRIMARY source, and we're restricted in what statements primary sources are used to support. Having (quickly) read WP:BLPPRIMARY, I'd like to err on the side of caution and avoid using it at all for Orion's departure... which isn't the same as saying he shouldn't be mentioned. Little pob (talk) 12:19, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Found sources that state he played Tibs and the character race and class. Just need a source for his departure date - I suspect using the date of the last YouTube video he appeared in would fall foul of WP:SYNTH. Little pob (talk) 12:39, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think most of the content around Orion that was removed for being WP:OR has now been reinstated with references. In the few instances where WP:primary sources have been used, I've only used them to support WP:NPOV statements around his departure date, and that Tiberius is not in the animated series. (I doubt Orion will be cast in the project; but the source only states that Tibs won't appear.) Little pob (talk) 13:36, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored to the lead the mention of the licensed works.[3] No policy was stated for its removal. WP:SS applies, and the spin-off section mentions a number of licensed works - which isn't to say the wording of the restored sentence can't be improved.

If it's being read as being WP:PUFFy or WP:PROMOy please improve/expand the lead's summary of the spin-off section, rather than reducing lead length for a nearly 80kb article. Little pob (talk) 09:53, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If the issue is WP:PROMO the use of "available" might be the culprit as that implies "for purchase" in my opinion. Perhaps a wording more along the lines of: "A number of licensed works based on the show have been released..." Frapsity (talk)

 Done[4] Little pob (talk) 10:41, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Whether Critical Role wishes to hide from the fact they participated, by deleting all tweets except for an apology for working with Wendy's, it is important that they did participate in this advertising campaign, www.feastoflegends.com , and swiftly delete the stream of them playing the game put out by Wendy's fast food restaurant.https://twitter.com/CriticalRole/status/1180219441247703040 they even forced Wendy's fast food restaurant to delete their post about the event. http://web.archive.org/web/20191004020835/twitter.com/wendys/status/1179940445914370049 http://web.archive.org/web/20191004021207/https://twitter.com/CriticalRole/status/1179940108725714944

This is fact, and a first for an entire RPG from a fast food restaurant, so should be included in this article considering the influence Critical Role has over RPGs in the world right now, not hidden or otherwise not included for its historic significance. shadzar-talk 10:36, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Weird. 76.231.73.99 (talk) 12:46, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any WP:RS coverage? It could go in the critical response section. I'm UK critter, and don't use Twitter, so not aware why CR are distancing themselves from Wendy's and deleted the stream/tweets. Little pob (talk) 08:40, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Little pob: there was a massive, overblown, and absurdly ridiculous backlash from the community for...being a commercial entity? It makes little sense. Still, reliable sources are necessary, Shadzar, and not simply sources which condemn CR. — Huntster (t @ c) 22:13, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How do you provide "reliable sources" for a cover-up? i don't know all the bits and bobs of the controversy, i am just saying it should be included in the article that they participated. what do you consider reliable anymore around here? https://simplenews.co.uk/general/critical-role-is-teaming-up-with-wendys-for-a-special-one-shot/ how about Forbes? https://www.forbes.com/sites/robwieland/2019/10/03/this-free-rpg-from-wendys-is-surprisingly-well-done/ IGN? https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/03/wendys-tabletop-rpg-dnd-feast-of-legends Yahoo? https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/wendys-created-dungeons-dragons-style-191732196.html

anyone can do a google search and see Critical Role was partnered with Wendy's for this game. are Wikipedians now incapable of finding their own sources? This is not an article I am personally familiar with, thus why i suggested people closer to it to add the content objectively rather than subjectively. but there you have a bunch of sources to pick from to add the content rather than be a part of the cover-up now. ;) shadzar-talk 05:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Little pob, i think the One Shots section would work since it was a sponsored one shot. But as a Critter, you probably understand the content more of this article than someone form the outside, and if you feel including material in the critical reaction section, maybe that would be good for the controversy part. but One Shots for the actual partnership, sponsorship, etc seems most appropriate from a quick glance of this extremely large article. shadzar-talk 05:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Wendy's RPG isn't the first sponsored one-shot CR have done. IMO, what would make it worth singling out the Wendy's one-shot from the others is the apparent community response and VOD deletion - hence my suggestion of having it in critical response section.

There are plenty of sources announcing the team up, but none (that I could find) around the controversy and/or subsequent removal. Without those, the best we can say (at the moment) is something along the lines of the CR team ran a sponsored one-shot in conjunction with Wendy's and the money was profits were subsequently donated to charity. From my understanding of WP:SYNTH; we're prevented from adding that the feed is not available on CR's usual VOD streams, or that Matt posted an apology to Twitter (as it does not mention Wendy's or FoL). Little pob (talk) 08:49, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Right, and due to some thinking there may be legal ramifications of the contract with Wendy's we may not have any info for a while, if any legal proceedings around it becomes public. I Think a fast food based RPG sponsorship is something new compared to say just Pizza Hut throwing money at CR for advertising as a "sponsor", since the Wendy's game is an actual and full game, that they turned their backs on and has caused lots of silence and fear across the internet. not sure how yo source that. They promoted a new game that keeps getting new content form the designers, then just as quickly discard the game and made the world shun it, or fear talking about it. shadzar-talk 12:04, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a section on some one-shots being sponsored. Having found a source that mentions the deletion: https://westerncourier.com/45614/the-edge/wendys-expands-its-focus-beyond-food/ have added it to the one-shot section. If more information comes out, we can reassess the placement in the article. However, if history shows this to be a storm in a teacup, future editors may choose to remove entirely. Little pob (talk) 12:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So be it. i quit really bothering with Wikipedia when the rapant deletions began a few years ago, jsut thought this significant enough that a non-gaming company made a full RPG, not just a themed video game rip-of, but an entire tabletop RPG, that it was important enough to add here, like i added it to Wendy's own article. May be a flash n the pan type of game, but now that your "storm" has subsided it seems more people in more places are trying to actually play the game and creating new content for it, so maybe the game itself will grow to something more and CR gets left in the dust by it as a skeleton in their closet. Good luck keeping it with correct info about anything new that may or may not develop. shadzar-talk 10:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"jsut thought this significant enough that a non-gaming company made a full RPG" It might well be, but the CR article is about CR. The scope for this article to talk about the Feast of Legends RPG system (currently) begins and ends with the sponsored one-shot. Little pob (talk) 11:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Right, but was just saying I already added it to Wendy's and now that they are cross-linked articles, editors can be aware and able to fix any of my editing mistakes on the other article, or watch for people coming from it if there is still an RPG vandalism problem around this place. now it can be watched on both article's for factual info by those who are more inclined to understand information about Critical Role than myself. Probably be a footnote in the long run for both articles, but we never know what the future will hold. shadzar-talk 22:41, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@QueerFilmNerd: you mentioned last night that the Campaign two section is getting quite long and is not slowing down. Given the length of the plot summaries of both campaigns, I wanted to open a community discussion. Should we think about spinning out a separate article for the live show from the company? Or should the plot summaries of both campaigns be condensed & reduced? I created a separate article for the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount since it has enough notability for its own article. I assume when the animated show drops, it will get a separate article page in the style of TV show articles. I believe that the live show has enough notability to have a standalone article. Thoughts? Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:16, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We could also move just the plot summaries over to their own story arcs article (example: List of The Wicked + The Divine story arcs) rather than splitting the entire CR live show from the company. Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:47, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. I'm not sure the production company is WP:notable enough outside of the main show at the moment - that might change once the animated series is available. Spinning out an episode list is probably a better way to go. In fact, I made a start on this a while back. However I've not had time to watch since the thanksgiving break , and I try to avoid spoilers. Little pob (talk) 22:03, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Little pob: MOS:TVSPLIT says "considering episode summaries alone, it would take between 50 and 60 episodes to warrant separating those summaries off the main page to an List of Episodes page" so I think that's the way to go. If you move the page you started to a draft page, I can start filling in gaps (as I don't care about spoilers). Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 23:38, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I don't think CR as a production company meets notability guidelines, but I agree with the episode page. I agree, move the episodes to a draft and we can see how long it gets. I don't know whether or not we'd need the split the campaigns, maybe if we keep the descriptions really short. Also, I don't believe CR streams to YT anymore, just Twitch I believe. QueerFilmNerd^talk 05:34, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We could continue the style of doing descriptions for each story arc (rather than for each episode) on the episode list page. CR doesn't stream to YouTube but they do post the episodes on YouTube a few days after the live stream on Twitch. To watch it on demand on Twitch you have to subscribe to their Twitch channel. Sariel Xilo (talk) 05:43, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think we could see how long the episode page ends up being with short descriptions. I definitely think it could work. They did stream to Youtube when they were with G&S, but stopped (I believe because Twitch doesn't let you multi-stream but G&S had a deal?), just pointing it out for the table the other person made that stated it originally aired on (and I'm thinking streaming when I see this) on Twitch & and Youtube, but that's only half true now. They switched early last year. QueerFilmNerd^talk 01:13, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Sariel Xilo: If you move the page you started to a draft page, I can start filling in gaps done - though I can't get Critical Role within the title to italicise? Little pob (talk) 11:31, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Little pob: I'm not sure how you get titles to italicize - I've always relied on info boxes to do that automatically. I added all the dates for campaign 2 & guest stars for both campaigns. I haven't touched the one-shots. I've also created a talk page with the draft if we want to move further discussion on list specific article format/content to there. Sariel Xilo (talk) 02:11, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I did the one-shots (I would like to thank the Critical Role Wikia as I didn't know how to spell a bunch of the names of the guests haha). We are missing some that aren't linked through G&S or CR that the wikia has so we'll just need to add those. As well, several of the episodes have different titles on the G&S website, so we'll just wanna take note of that! I've asked a couple other questions over on that talk page. QueerFilmNerd^talk 02:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]