March 28

Trying to find out who H. Renges was and who was his wife mentioned here. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:11, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know the Consul's first initial was "H"? It is not mentioned in the clipping. Do you have another source of information? Perhaps the Swedish Consulate in Honolulu can be of help. As this is a Honorary Consulate, their resources may be rather limited, though.  --Lambiam 03:58, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More often H. Renjes, Consul for Mexico, Chile, and Vice-Consul for Spain[1]. fiveby(zero) 06:40, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Heinrich[2]. fiveby(zero) 06:43, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Elizabeth Kekaeikapuokalani Renjes (Coney) from genealogy sites, Elizabeth Likelike Coney Renjes from Williams, R. (2004). "Hawaiian Ali'i Women in New York Society" (PDF). Hawaiian Journal of History. 38. fiveby(zero) 06:55, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Based on this clipping from the Evening Bulletin, Heinrich Renjes was Acting Chilean Consul to the Kingdom of Hawaiʻi on June 25, 1889. In another clipping from the Hawaiian Star of August 14, 1911, we read that he died at the age of 56 in Wiesbaden that day, as well as that he had been a partner in the firm of F. A. Schaefer & Co., Honolulu (also mentioned in "Hawaiian Ali'i Women in New York Society"). His age places his birth date in the range from August 14, 1855 to August 13, 1856. This genealogy record gives his full name as "Heinrich Herman Renjes". MyHeritage.com states that Elizabeth Coney was born on March 3, 1866, in Hilo, Hawaiʻi and that the couple had one daughter, Else Becker (née Renjes). Furthermore, Heinrich was apparently a German who emigrated to the US and applied for a US passport (the latter presumably after having been naturalized). Elizabeth's full name is given as Elizabeth Likelike Keka'ekapuokalani Renjes.  --Lambiam 12:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do US state courts (for instance, the California Supreme Court) actually have the power to interpret the US Constitution? Futurist110 (talk) 05:47, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The wording of your question is a little odd -- they're perfectly free to cite and interpret the U.S. constitution all they want in their rulings, but such interpretations would not be any form of binding precedent for U.S. federal courts. Of course, the state supreme courts are usually the final authority on the interpretation of those parts of their state's constitution which go beyond the U.S. constitution. AnonMoos (talk) 08:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In its decision in Ex Parte Dickey, 144 Cal. 234, 77 Pac. 924 (Cal. 1904), the Supreme Court of California argued that "[u]nder the constitution of the United States and of this state the protection guaranteed in the possession of property, and in the pursuit of happiness is extended, as of necessity it must be, to cover the right to acquire property, and the right to acquire property must and does include the employment of proper means to that end". Since said extension is not explicitly stated in the US Constitution and one can hold a different opinion as to whether it must "of necessity" be extended as claimed, this is IMO an example of the Supreme Court of California interpreting the US Constitution. (And, assuming hypothetically they did not have that power, what would stop them from acting as if they do?)  --Lambiam 16:46, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If it is legal to own things ("possession of property") and persons can do as they will ("pursuit of happiness"), there is nothing to stop them from selling said property or another from buying said property as long as the transactions are legally conducted ("proper means to that end"). So, no theft, blackmail, extortion, or undue influence allowed. This is basically what the California court is saying. I don't see how you could say that that was not the obvious meaning of the US and California constitutions ("extended, as of necessity it must be"). The interpretation of the court will stand until either 1) the underlying law (said constitutions) is changed such that the extrapolation is not supported or 2) the judgement is overruled (by the same or higher court). I don't see either of those happening. --Khajidha (talk) 20:56, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The very thing under discussion was the legality of the employment agent's conduct. There was an act of the California legislature putting certain requirements on that conduct, which he violated, so the prima facie position would be that it was illegal, as it indeed had been judged to be by the Police Court of San Francisco. It is common to put requirements by law on the transactions of gun sellers, pawn brokers, and a multitude of other professions, and usually a violation of such requirements is punishable by law, and convictions will be upheld. In this case the Californian Supreme Court ruled that the act was unconstitutional, which made the conduct legal, but the argument that the agent's conduct was a priori legal is a form of petitio principii.  --Lambiam 12:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If a state supreme court makes a ruling that appears to be a violation of the US Constitution, that ruling presumably can be appealed in a federal court, where it could be overturned or upheld at some point. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:09, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I keep seeing charts depicting cumulative totals of cases and cumulative total deaths... but what I would like to see is a reliable source that charts the rise and fall (+-) of NEW cases (ideally on a per day basis), as this is what will best tell us whether we are beginning to come to grips with the virus. Most interested in US numbers (and especially NY). Any suggestions? Blueboar (talk) 21:45, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to all comments from health organisations, including the World Health Organization, unfortunately there is currently not any known process for getting at that information the kind of which you're seeking for. --Askedonty (talk) 22:36, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Literally all you'd need to do would be to obtain statistics for whatever jurisdiction you desire on a daily basis. (For example, if a town has 239 confirmed cases on one day and 250 the next, there are 11 new cases. Third day there are 294 confirmed cases, so there are 44 new cases.) Ditto with deaths. The Johns Hopkins map gives worldwide new-cases statistics — on the bottom right, there's a chart of total cases, and if you click the "Daily Increase" tab, you'll see how many new cases have been added on a daily basis. The site's help page provides contact information for the team monitoring the map, and who knows but that they might have logged the daily totals for a while now, which should be all you need. Nyttend (talk) 23:10, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note this thread on the Science desk and the WHO graph which suggests that changes in diagnostic criteria (and/or reporting methods) can skew statistics. 2606:A000:1126:28D:7175:62E7:40D1:A6E5 (talk) 23:19, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

if a town has 239 confirmed cases on one day and 250 the next, there are 11 new cases. -- no that's a serious part of the problem. Those numbers mean there are 11 new confirmed cases, but there is way too little testing to know how many actual cases there are. There may be 10x as many actual cases as confirmed ones. South Korea has decent data because of extensive testing but US testing is only now starting to happen at any scale. You can see a list of public datasets here if you want to know what's available, though. 2601:648:8202:96B0:E0CB:579B:1F5:84ED (talk) 23:45, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you're distinguishing between actual cases and confirmed cases, yes, but when someone comes to a humanities desk to ask for information about cases under the heading "CoVid 19 statistics", I expect that the person's looking for assistance with statistics (which will be confirmed), not for assistance with determining actual case numbers. It's a part of the context in which the question is asked (the person has performed part of the reference interview for me already), and I have to depend on that to understand what's being sought. Nyttend (talk) 13:16, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The OP user page states that he is living in NY City. I do not have the means to determine whether he does master the concept of Event in statistics when dealing with an ongoing process but what I do know is that the equation previously confirmed cases, reajusted equals number of new cases, to my eyes is missing at least one clause. --Askedonty (talk) 14:54, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These numbers are widely reported. Here is the very first link that came up when I google chart "new coronavirus cases chart": [3]. Rmhermen (talk) 01:11, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/#daily-cases Proteus (Talk) 21:09, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

March 29

There's a merger proposal at Talk:Sovereign citizen movement#Merger proposal that looks like it's going to end with a "not done", as all six editors who commented oppose the idea. This is because, according to them, the freemen on the land and sovereign citizen movements are significantly different. I have read about people encountering them and I have recently had the misfortune to come across one of them in my profession. This is a person that I identified as a sovereign citizen based on the writing style and his arguments, but now I'm less certain.

To me, it looks like they employ much the same arguments and some reliable sources discuss them together or appear to consider them the same. Given that there is no strict organization or regulating authority i guess that their beliefs vary and that there is considerable overlap between the beliefs of the two groups. But what are the differences and similarities and does it matter when dealing with one of them? Sjö (talk) 13:47, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The main similarity is that they're both bogus. <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 14:23, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that sovereign citizens are American cranks, and freemen are English nutters. They both appear to believe pretty much the same bullshit. A merger would be appropriate. Temerarius (talk) 21:02, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

From what I've read, it seems the Freemen are mostly harmless, while the Sovereign Citizens are often dangerous terrorists. Which would be a good reason to keep them separate - we wouldn't normally merge a terrorist movement from one country with a non-violent movement from another, even if they shared the same ideology.. Iapetus (talk) 09:24, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• To answer your immediate question, they're both the same: invented concepts with a similar goal, but nothing legal to back them up.

But in terms of our articles, we're not looking at the concept, we're looking at the campaigns. Those are different. So should the articles be. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:27, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree -- if there's no real organizational connection between the movements, then a broad similarity in overall concept is not enough reason to merge... AnonMoos (talk) 22:47, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Each with a "see also" to the other one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:15, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Do sources describe them as the same movement or separate? Even if they otherwise behaved identically (which they don't) and made the same arguments verbatim (close but not exactly), we can't combine them until other sources connect them. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:23, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It varies, hence my confusion. Some sources treat them as part of the same movement [4] [5], others treat them as similar but mostly don't detail the differences [6] [7] [8] [9]. Sjö (talk) 11:47, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed or changed a couple of statements on our Freemen on the Land article that were guilty of synthesis and/or making claims not supported by the cited sources. Iapetus (talk) 09:25, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is the kind of question that should really be raised on the article's talk page, but I've learned that this is essentially pointless as questions I've left on article talk pages have often gone unanswered for months or even years. So this is the best place, really. The article on the book I Heard You Paint Houses quotes the full title of the book as I Heard You Paint Houses: Frank "The Irishman" Sheeran and Closing the Case on Jimmy Hoffa. This is also the correct title of the book according to Amazon and all the other sources I've seen. However, on the cover of the book used to illustrate the article, the title is slightly different (it ends with...the Last Ride of Jimmy Hoffa). So which is the correct title? If the first title is correct, the image of the cover in the article should be changed. --Viennese Waltz 15:36, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Usually, the book title page is more authoritative than the book cover. What's on the cover is often chosen to be attention-grabbing... AnonMoos (talk) 16:13, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See this thread from last year - "Which is the correct book title?". Alansplodge (talk) 18:56, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That thread doesn't answer my question, which is what is the correct title when a book has two covers and they both show different titles. --Viennese Waltz 19:01, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For LCCN 2004-6625

HV6446 .B73 2004 CABIN BRANCH "I heard you paint houses" : Frank "the Irishman" Sheeran and the inside story of the Mafia, the Teamsters, and the last ride of Jimmy Hoffa

HV6446 .B73 2005 "I heard you paint houses" : Frank "the Irishman" Sheeran and the inside story of the Mafia, the Teamsters, and the last ride of Jimmy Hoffa

ISBN 9781586420895 Streetforth Press

cover #1 TRUE CRIME BEST SELLER "I heard you paint houses" : Frank "the Irishman" Sheeran and Closing the case on Jimmy Hoffa UPDATED AND WITH A NEW EPILOGUE BY THE AUTHOR CHARLES BRANDT.

missing title page at amazon look inside

HV6446 .B73 2016 Irishman : Frank Sheeran and closing the case on Jimmy Hoffa

ISBN 9781586422387 Steerforth I Heard You Paint Houses: Frank "The Irishman" Sheeran & Closing the Case on Jimmy Hoffa

bunch of mass market paperbacks such as ISBN 9781586422479 mostly 2019 with the LC title

sorry, had to change response as got confused between the 2005 and 2016 editions. fiveby(zero) 20:29, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fiveby -- theoretically, both covers could be wrong, if neither one accurately reflected the title page... AnonMoos (talk) 22:43, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was expecting the title page would remain the same within an edition. For the 2016 edition, the title page changes from I Heard you Paint Houses...Closing the Case... to The Irishman...Closing the Case... after the 2019 movie, but the copyright remains 2004,2005,2016. I couldn't find anything showing a title page for the 2005 edition to see if it has Closing along with the cover or last ride per the Library of Congress MARC record. fiveby(zero) 01:40, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This web auctioneer claims that: "About the time that Winchester was seriously considering entering production [of the 1959-63 prototype, inexpensive double action revolver], President Kennedy was assassinated and Winchester immediately scrapped the idea for fear of political repercussions." I don't get it. Kennedy was shot with a Carcano 91/38 rifle. What does this have to do with a new type of Winchester revolver? --KnightMove (talk) 17:40, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's a gun. If someone loved by the people is shot, the image of all guns would logically go down. Marketing a new gun of any kind in such circumstances would be an unattractive proposition. HiLo48 (talk) 00:09, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The city of Dallas also suffered a tarnished reputation for a while. There was a popular song called "Big D" (little a double l a s) which disappeared for some stretch of time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:23, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Disappeared"? How did a song from a 1956 musical "disappear"? Cite, please, asks this longtime student of musical theater. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 14:23, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What I originally was going to say was "disappeared from the airwaves". Obviously the song itself did not disappear. And after some years had passed, the Dallas Cowboys resumed playing it during their halftime shows and the like. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:59, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You could say the city's name was "Mud" for a while. In the movie Dr. Strangelove, they cut out some ironic references to Dallas. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:00, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note that in 1963, John M. Olin retired as chairman of Winchester; the new management quickly discontinued their traditional lines and switched to mass-produced models in order to cut costs (resulting the foreseeable side effect of cutting sales as well). [10] This seems to be a more likely explanation for abandoning a prototype, although I can't find any reference online. A rather tenuous connection with the Kennedy assassination was that the spent ammunition recovered after the shooting had been manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company, [11] which had acquired Winchester in 1935 under Olin's leadership. Alansplodge (talk) 17:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You can thank people like DH Byrd and LBJ for songs like that. The hospitality they extended to Kennedy wasn't exactly "neighbourly" after all... Earl of Arundel (talk) 16:41, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone here know just how many Mugwumps there were in New York state in 1884? I'm asking because Democrat Grover Cleveland only won the 1884 United States presidential election in New York by a little over 1,000 votes--or slightly less than 0.10%. Many Mugwumps declined to vote for 1884 Republican candidate James G. Blaine due to them perceiving him as being corrupt--instead preferring to support the more honest Cleveland in spite of him being a Democrat. I'm curious as to just how many Mugwumps there actually were in New York state in 1884 considering that, if one speculates about alternate history, one might want to try figuring out what the odds of a surviving US President James A. Garfield (assuming, of course, that he'd have actually lived in this scenario) would have been of carrying New York state in 1884 and thus winning the 1884 election. A surviving President Garfield probably wouldn't have had the same problem with Mugwump defections as Blaine had in real life due to the fact that AFAIK Garfield was perceived as being more honest than Blaine was. (Indeed, there was no Mugwump defection problem in 1880 in real life--which is when Garfield initially ran for the US Presidency.)

So, yeah, any thoughts on this? Futurist110 (talk) 21:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I found some good resources to help you research the answer to your question. The Library of Congress has a wealth of information on the election of 1884. I didn't read this article, but it also looks promising [12]. Just some starting points for you. --Jayron32 13:45, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

March 30

I am looking for the original source of a quotation widely attributed to David Lloyd George - "Don't be afraid to take a big step. You can't cross a chasm in two small jumps". Duncan Brack; Robert Ingham, eds. (1999). Dictionary of Liberal Quotations. London: Politico's Publishing. p. 113. ISBN 1902301145. includes the quotation with the note "attributed". It is not one of the "Maxims" included in Lloyd George, David (1929). Guedalla, Philip (ed.). Slings and Arrows - Sayings Chosen from the Speeches of the Rt Hon David Lloyd George, OM, MP. London: Cassell and Company, Ltd. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |editorlink= ignored (|editor-link= suggested) (help) Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 12:16, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiquote gives this as a variant of the saying "There is nothing more dangerous than to leap a chasm in two jumps", while noting this has been variously ascribed to Lloyd George, Benjamin Disraeli, Winston Churchill, Vaclav Havel, Jeffrey Sachs, Rashi Fein, Walter Bagehot and Philip Noel-Baker. That is a sure sign someone made it up and put it in someone else's mouth to give it more weight.  --Lambiam 14:15, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quote Investigator looked into this and seems to have found the original in volume two of the “War Memoirs of David Lloyd George” (published 1933). There is no greater mistake than to try to leap an abyss in two jumps. They also found that Lloyd George was riffing on a common expression that they traced back to 1873. Here is the quote in the Memoirs. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:24, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks @70.67.193.176! I had an idea I'd seen some form of the sentiment in one or other of his books, but had been searching for "chasm" not "abyss". I'll make citebooks for the three editions (First British in 6 volumes, American in 6 volumes, New British in two volumes) here for the convenience of others in the future.

First British (in six volumes) - Lloyd George, David (1933). "XXIV: Disintegration of the Liberal Party". War Memoirs. Vol. 2 (1st ed.). London: Ivor Nicholson & Watson. p. 740.

American (in six volumes) - Lloyd George, David (1933). "VII: Disintegration of the Liberal Party". War Memoirs of David Lloyd George. Vol. 2: 1915-1916. Boston: Little, Brown, and Company. p. 184.

New British (in two volumes) - Lloyd George, David (1938). "XXIV: Disintegration of the Liberal Party". War Memoirs. Vol. 1 (New ed.). London: Odhams Press Limited. p. 445.

Again, very much appreciated. DuncanHill (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome! We don't manage to answer all your Lloyd George questions but it's very satisfying when we can :) And they are always interesting to research! 70.67.193.176 (talk) 22:25, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Was there a real prototype for Colonel Kurtz, who had come out of obedience? --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 13:37, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The character is based on the corresponding character of Kurtz in Joseph Conrad's novella Heart of Darkness. See Heart of Darkness#Composition and publication for some information on likely sources for Kurtz. --Jayron32 13:48, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You linked the article; did you read Colonel Kurtz#Inspiration? If so, then perhaps you can clarify in what way it didn't address your question. -- ToE 05:06, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

March 31

Did Isobel Osbourne live in Hawaii from 1883 to 1889? What prompt her family to move there and why was she living there? How does this coincide with her stepfather Robert Louis Stevenson's visit to the Pacific in 1889? Why did she wait until 1891 to move to Samoa? Where was she in the intervening years? KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:38, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Tranquada, Jim; King, John (2003). New History of the Origins and Development of the ʻUkulele, 1838–1915 (PDF). Vol. 37. Honolulu: Hawaiian Historical Society. pp. 1–32. hdl:10524/382. OCLC 60626541. {{cite book}}: |journal= ignored (help)

According to the linguistic maps of Italy on here, Trentino can be divided into a Lombard-speaking western part comprising around a third of its total area and a Venetian-speaking eastern part for other two-third. The provincial capital city of Trento/Trent/Trient/Trident has historically been in the Venetian speaking area, correct? 70.95.44.93 (talk) 07:37, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, Italian wikipedia gives the city its own dialect. "Trentinian" does get mentioned on English Wiki in Gallo-Italic_languages but the link redirects to Trento. But there's another mention of "Trentinian" in Ladin language - that article seems to have the most useful discussion. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:32, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Italian Wikipedia says (in the article Dialetti trentini) that dialectically the Trentino dialect area can roughly be devided into three zones. In the Western zone, the dialects are strongly influenced by Eastern Lombard. In the Eastern zone, the dialect is clearly Veneto. In the central zone between these two, which contains the city of Trent, the dialect used to be more similar to the Western valley but is now in an "advanced phase of Venetianization". (A reference is given which I have not attempted to find.) So, according to this info, Trento was historically in the Lombard-speaking area, but Veneto is advancing from the East and is in the process of taking over. The map in our article on the Languages of Italy suggests a mixture of Lombard and Veneto in the central part of Trentino.  --Lambiam 21:00, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That would imply a sort of Dialect continuum across the region; which is rather expected and common in these situations. --Jayron32 13:50, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ping User:Jaqen. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:37, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Pigsonthewing: Thank you for the ping! I must say that while I'm from Trento I am not an expert in this topic, and in particular I don't know much about the historical situation. However, I am sure of some things, but of course I am not a source:

1. There is not a single Trentinian dialect, every valley has its own
2. Ladin, Mòcheno, Nones and Cimbrian are entirely different stories
3. In the city of Trento except some dialectal words we mostly don't speak dialect (I suppose this is because of immigration)
4. Rovereto (25 km south of Trento) has been dominated by the Republic of Venice from some time, Trento never was.

I can also confirm that it:Dialetti trentini argues that the dialects of the Western valleys are influenced by the Lombard language/dialect and those of the Eastern valleys by the Venetian one, but this is not something I have direct knowledge of. --Jaqen (talk) 07:45, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I wonder if anyone can help me identify a certain series of books.

It's an elementary-school anthology / reader from the 70's or 80's. Large thin harcover. One of the stories is All Summer in a Day by Ray Bradbury. Another is a excerpt from one of the Narnia books, I think possibly The Magician's Nephew.

Has anyone every heard of these books? I know my information is vague... Duomillia (talk) 18:03, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A quick look at Google brings up the Impressions Reading Series, which includes " the works of C. S. Lewis, A. A. Milne, Dr. Seuss, Ray Bradbury...". A description appears in Literature Suppressed on Religious Grounds (p. 147) (which may be why it's not around anymore). Alansplodge (talk) 19:46, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

April 1

The above drawing is described as "Portrait of a Lady, reputedly ‘Lady Hertford’' (circa 1830)". Is it Maria Seymour-Conway, Marchioness of Hertford (also shown)? If not, who else might it be? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:33, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it must be. The only other candidate is her mother-in-law, Isabella Ingram-Seymour-Conway, Marchioness of Hertford, who would have been 70 or 71 at that date. Alansplodge (talk) 17:00, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Would the wife of Lord Pingyuan, who was a princess of the state of Wei as daughter of King Zhao of Wei and sister of Lord Xinling, have been known contemporaneously as Lady Pingyuan (平原夫人)? 69.209.14.47 (talk) 20:12, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not in English, because English had not yet been invented. Undoubtedly, the wife of a a prominent nobleman who was also a princess would carry a title, so I assume the question is whether 夫人 was already in use as the title of the wife of a feudal lord in late Old Chinese, during the Warring States period. If so, the form of the glyphs would have been different.  --Lambiam 09:50, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How many Jews were murdered in the Holocaust before Operation Barbarossa? Including indirectly, such as famine and sickness. 94.159.193.41 (talk) 21:12, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Barbarossa took place from 22 June to 5 December 1941. The implementation of the Final solution to the Jewish question started only after the Wannsee Conference, which was held on 20 January 1942, and most sources focus on the systematic extermination programme. Almost all Jews directly murdered by the Nazi's before then were killed as part of Operation Barbarossa. Before then, there was no systematic process, but Jews died in the Nazi ghettos, the first of which was established on 8 October 1939 in occupied Poland. Some crude calculations yield an estimate that between 6% to 8% of the people in these ghettos died before June 1941. I did not find data about the total number of Jews who were forced to live in the ghettos, but it must have been in the millions.  --Lambiam 08:53, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kristallnacht occurred in 1938, and resulted in the death of about 100 Jews, similar smaller pogroms and smaller scale individual murders likely occurred throughout the early years of the Nazi regime as well, both before and after that, which don't register in Wikipedia, but which were occurring. Aktion T4 resulted in the deaths of thousands of Jews before Barbarossa as well, while many non-Jews were affected, it also especially targeted Jewish people, as noted in the Wikipedia article "During 1940, all Jewish patients were removed from institutions and killed", as in from all residential medical institutions (nursing homes, mental institutions, invalid care hospitals, etc.) Just a few examples. --Jayron32 12:51, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both for your help. I also failed to find an estimation for this period. I did find on Yad Vashem that during September 1939, at least 7,0000 Jews were murdered directly by the Nazis. 94.159.193.41 (talk) 19:17, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

April 2

What breed of horses did the Americans use (for example, the 2nd Continental Light Dragoons) in the 1700's/American Revolutionary War? I can't seem to find an answer anywhere I look on the wiki. –MJL -Talk-^{WikiProject Connecticut} 18:34, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't read it, but you could try What horse for the cavalry?, Spencer Borden (Massachusetts, 1912). Alansplodge (talk) 20:24, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One of the breeds mentioned by Borden above (the bit I did read) is the American Saddlebred, which is "Descended from riding-type horses bred at the time of the American Revolution"; that article has a few details of its origin. Alansplodge (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It has occurred to me that Washington's Continental Army probably lacked the logistic chain or financial resources required to procure horses en masse and it seems likely that volunteers for cavalry regiments would have to bring their own horse with them. This was the case in the Civil War, [13] and in Britain, the home-defence militia Yeomanry Cavalry also hade to provide their own mounts. I can't find a reference to support that, but a bit more digging might yield results. Alansplodge (talk) 20:58, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Probably many of them would have been farm-horses, since most in the colonies couldn't afford to maintain horses that weren't economically useful. This doesn't apply to George Washington, of course --- we have articles on Blueskin (horse) and Nelson (horse)... AnonMoos (talk) 22:07, 2 April 2020‎ (UTC)[reply]

@AnonMoos and Alansplodge: Ah, thank you both! :D –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 01:40, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

April 3

(Moved from another talkpage)

It is claimed this image, File:Hetaira playing kottabos - Greek Getty Villa Collection.jpg, depicts a prostitute, but the claims source is unqualified and there are no obvious indications except the nakedness of the subject. Also, this finger is not flicking anything, but is hooked into the handle of a container too large for flicking dregs out of. If this was part of a game of kottabos, this would seem not to be a participant but a target/holder. ~ R.T.G 13:49, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This image is being used a lot, inessentially, for prostitution and kottabos. Please discuss, ~ R.T.G 21:22, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This depiction matches the standard pose of other figures identified as playing kottabos—see more under that article, and in Commons. Even if the vessel has been drawn larger than others in similar pictures, perhaps unrealistically so, it seems unlikely that it was meant to depict a different activity. After all, the entire depiction is symbolic, and not intended to be as realistic as humanly possible. In the absence of some statement of authority that it's not a woman playing kottabos, I'd say it almost certainly is. As for it being a hetaira—I would translate that as "courtesan", not "prostitute", as the latter word would be misleading due to its modern association—we can also probably take that for granted. Kottabos, our article says, was played at symposia (drinking parties). And in the Greek world, "respectable" women were not permitted in such gatherings—but hetairai would have been. If the painting were Etruscan, it might be different. Etruscan women held a much higher status than women elsewhere in the classical world—but then she would probably not be naked. So the image title seems to be an accurate description of the painting. P Aculeius (talk) 21:49, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is not unusual at all. There are many depictions of this type of vessel, including in comparison to the smaller hand-sized drinking vessel, one in either hand [14], [15]... It is a spitton, I will contend, and it was used to some extent to abuse women (warning: this next image is NSF polite company) [16]. Some depictions of kottabos clearly show this larger type in the background, as the target for the dregs [17], [18].

And beyond that, if this woman is a hetaira being honoured, and not a slave being abused, why is she naked, and holding the spitton up in the air at symposium?

Beside this, can anyone put a name to this endlessly repeated version of a female playing flute at symposium? [19], [20], [21], [22]. ~ R.T.G 22:43, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what you're denying is "unusual". I don't recall asserting that something about the painting was "unusual". The images you linked fail to show anything other than that the vessel you're concerned about is depicted proportionally larger than those in other images—which doesn't prove that it's a spittoon or target of any kind. They show handled cups/bowls being held in one hand above the holder's head, and apparently flicked, just as this one is. The large vessels identified as targets in these images seem to be basket-shaped, handleless vessels suspended from the ceiling—not at all what's being depicted in this image. I'm confused by your assertion that such vessels were used "to abuse women"—in part because it's not clear what you mean by "abuse women"—the image you linked for this doesn't obviously depict a woman "being abused". Are you generalizing about a practice based on your own interpretation of a single image?

I never claimed that the hetaira was being honoured—merely that the image depicts a hetaira at a symposium. There's no evidence that she's being honoured, and even less that she's being abused. Your only basis for asserting so seems to be your belief that the vessel she's holding is a spittoon, and that she's not playing kottabos—which is what the pose and the position of the bowl seems to indicate. She's naked because she's a hetaira at a drinking party—this image seems to be of a Grecian party girl, not the punishment of a slave—for which there's simply no evidence apart from the size of the bowl in the painting. Is it so hard to believe that the artist simply painted the vessel too large?

I'm not sure why you're confused by the image of a girl playing a flute. It's a standard depiction, not of any particular person, but of the kind of entertainment that men at a drinking party might hire. A musician. She's no more "endlessly repeated" than the men reclining and playing kottabos behind her are—they're in almost all of the images, including the ones without a flute player. I think you're reading too much into standard conventions of Greek painting. P Aculeius (talk) 23:34, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why do focused contributors appear to need tablets every time they try to communicate with me about their hobby. P Aculeius, not unusual, as in commonplace, recognisable. The fact that she is holding the target dish for kottabos draws suspicion that she was getting dregs from wine glasses splattered over her for an extended part of an evening. It's not polite entertainment. The larger, totally commonplace size and shape vessel, is used in many studies, to indicate the target for the kottabos "game". I was not able to find this particular vessel used in this particular way elsewhere, though it is often in the other hand of a person drinking. It is a holding vessel for wine, and the prostitute is sitting in the middle with an empty one, begging for the dregs, which she pays for by being naked and getting splattered impolitely by drunken sods. It is not mentioned openly, because hetaerism is a taboo for discussion among monogamous men. One of the depictions I sourced clearly, shows a male masturbating at the dream of pouring the dregs jar all over, the lady of the symposium I suppose. I would call lusting at pouring the dregs over, and splatting them on anybody like that, a form of abuse. I promise you, there is no confusion here. I reserve that I may be incorrect, and we do not really know, but I am, sadly, following a definite line of enquiry. I am concluding on what I have found through searching, a range of imagery all in the same undeniable style, focusing on the ones featuring symposium, to be definitive of social relationships, as they are intended to be. They are repeated so closely for a reason. Because they tell a tale. They are too Bart Simpson to be mistaken for masterpieces in a world which produced some of the most beautiful masterpieces ever known in the world, so they are repeated so exactly because they tell a tell of some sort. This realisation has illicited in me a range of suspicions about the past. This line of suspicion is like, one of the most exciting things... After computer gaming... this sort of thing is the reason I look at the internet at all.

I'm sorry P Aculeius, at the point where you imagine I have mistaken your assumptions, I find that I illicit cognitive dissonance naturally in this sort of situation. I'm not confused at all. I'm going to drop this conversation right here. An intelligent person can study these artifacts for themselves insofar as I have been able to. There is no point in me taking a personal note with other Wikipedians here. Sure, the accuracy of the captions and use of File:Hetaira playing kottabos - Greek Getty Villa Collection.jpg might as well not be important. They aren't going to change. They are going to remain buried in this manner as they are classic and the accepted assumptions on them are defacto sacred.

Indeed, if you cannot see how the repeated images are repeated, copies after copies after copies of the exact same image, of which I have only produced a sample of their number, well... Good luck with that but thanks for the input. ~ R.T.G 01:13, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Next time, if you're going to ignore all logic and common sense in order to see exactly what you want to see, irrespective of anybody else's opinion, don't waste people's time by posting here. This isn't a forum for original research, patronizing retorts, condescension, and petty insults. The internet is full of places to post fringe theories, and people who are all too happy to gobble them up. This isn't one of them. P Aculeius (talk) 02:57, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Look, of course the image I linked and marked as NSFW suggests abusive overtones to some degree. You complain that I rely on personal assumption, yet you demand that the only significant thing is that you cannot see, a difficulty with her being a contestant, on the basis of holding what is blatantly obviously, undeniably, the recepticle at a food fight, in a culture of slavery. It is no measure of "fringe theory" to enquire if the obvious has been suggested before. It is instead an obvious, humanly understandable "concern". These images may appear cartoonish to our senses, but they certainly are not immature, exhibiting fine craft and knowledge to produce, purposely made in this style, so symbolisation as you refer to, is deliberate. So what is with the claims of seeing what I want to see? Who stands the insult here? Examples of kottabos, [23], [24], and the form and size of the vessel is widely repeated, often in conjunction with the standard drinking dish, as shown. The use of the image as it is currently, is inaccurate, or depicts more than it is credited for. Go, and project, a movie. ~ R.T.G 04:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Getty Museum,[25] the depicted woman playing kottabos could be either a Hetaira or a prostitute hired for the symposium. M.Bitton (talk) 23:54, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is disappointing, but revealing, thanks. ~ R.T.G 01:13, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, participants in playing kottabos did not flick the sediments with their fingers but with the cup.  --Lambiam 09:12, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This map appears in our article Tugela River. It shews a "hole" in KwaZulu-Natal which is not present in our article on the province. What is it? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:30, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The "hole" corresponds to Umzimkhulu Local Municipality. No clue as to why it is a different color. This map also shows it as being distinct. 2606:A000:1126:28D:45FB:B8D6:454E:EF01 (talk) 03:55, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This website says that Umzimkhulu used to be an enclave of Eastern Cape province surrounded by Kwazulu Natal province, but is now part of Kwazulu Natal province. That probably explains the "hole", but if that website is accurate, the map is now obsolete. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:30, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The transfer is referenced in Twelfth Amendment of the Constitution of South Africa, and also in the Umzimkhulu article – but should probably be mentioned instead in the Umzimkhulu Local Municipality article.  --Lambiam 09:05, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

April 4

In Churchill, Winston S. "XVI: The German Concentration in the West". The World Crisis 1911-1918. Vol. II. London: Odhams Press Limited. p. 1268. Churchill writes "Wars have hitherto been conducted by infantry, cavalry and artillery, and these are the three recognized arms of the service. It has also been observed with some truth that "the infantry is the army, and uses the other arms as its adjuncts"." I believe he uses a similar phrase in The Hinge of Fate. What is the origin of the "the infantry is the army..." phrase or idea? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:11, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Inexpertly I suggest he means, the infantry is the army, as one might say, the people are the nation, differing emphasis noted and sustained. ~ R.T.G 01:17, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Duncanhill -- In medieval Europe, infantry was often considered auxiliary to cavalry, but with the development of the pike square, and later the widespread use of individual firearms, it was cavalry which came to have a mainly auxiliary role... AnonMoos (talk) 05:35, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here the phrase is attributed to General Charles Antoine Morand, an officer of the Napoleonic era, so he presumably came up with it. You can find his version, in French, here: "L'infanterie est l'armée, les autres armes ne sont qu'accessoires".  --Lambiam 08:57, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

I'm not Dem or Rep (I'm European) and I don't want to discuss about politics. I just want to ask something about Biden (not his politics, just the man). It feels like is really really really old and he's very confused sometimes. Why does his party still pushes him to do something he obviously can't do anymore? Did it happen before in the history of the US politics? Ericdec85 (talk) 03:06, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A succinct quote from the quick read of this article:

Party actors from elected officials to local activists decided within a few days to coalesce around an imperfect but broadly acceptable alternative to Sen. Bernie Sanders, whom many feared would drag them to defeat in down-ballot races this fall.

2606:A000:1126:28D:45FB:B8D6:454E:EF01 (talk) 04:15, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

EricDec85 -- Biden is garrulous and anecdotal more than feeble and confused. It could be a liability in going up against some other candidates, but not really when Donald Trump is his opponent... AnonMoos (talk)

In the event that Biden is unable to accept the nomination or run for president, the delegates of Democratic National Convention will choose another nominee. One narrative says that they are trying to get Biden a majority of the delegates in order to stop Bernie Sanders. Once they've taken control of the process like that, the narrative proposes, they want to nominate Andrew Cuomo, another centrist like Biden but less scattered in front of a camera and maybe better positioned to beat President Trump. Lots of commentators and even Trump himself have remarked on this in recent weeks. They have Cuomo on TV every day giving Coronavirus briefings and he is apparently being well received. Those appearances are supposed to be part of the strategy. Another part is managing the media response to a sexual assault allegation against Biden[26] that is so far being downplayed, but amping it up just before the Convention could generate a pretext to swap candidates. AnonMoos: Biden really does seem to have lost his marbles over the years. Look at some old video of him on youtube and compare it to now. 2601:640:105:1E35:C074:F68C:EEC6:9F48 (talk) 07:25, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are also some who view his weaknesses as a potential strength, inasmuch as they will require him to form a strong coalition with broad support, the thinking being that that will cause voters to support candidates further down the ticket and into the midterms. An example of this is this Slate article titled Joe Biden Has Cured Democrats of Their Belief in a Savior President where they contrast Obama's strong turnout of 69 million voters in 2008 with the rather tepid turnout of less than 40 million democratic voters in the 2010 midterms that followed. They argue that the fact that Biden very clearly can't be a single handed savior, as many believe Bernie Sanders could be, is actually something that will strengthen the party as a whole. "The understanding that Biden can’t get this done by himself was implicit in his surge.[...] Instead they described his character, using words like decent, decency, empathy, and dignity—portraying him as, in essence, an American Queen Elizabeth who will project our values gracefully as head of state.[...] The Biden 2020 campaign isn’t about following its nominal leader, or even listening to him; it’s about the party pushing him over the line collectively—and about making plans to give him the necessary support once he’s in office, as Booker’s endorsing statement alluded to in references to 'winning races up and down the ballot' and thinking of a presidential victory as the 'floor' rather than the 'ceiling' of Democratic Party potential." AmbivalentUnequivocality (talk) 08:08, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The far-worse accusations against Trump didn't stick either. As to mental state, just try watching Trump for a week to get some perspective. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:22, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a fan of either party either, or of any political party for that matter. From the few television interviews of Biden I've watched, I do not get the feeling he has the wherewithal needed for the job. My best guess is that the Democratic establishment is pushing for what they see as the lesser of two evils. Precisely because Biden is weak, he is easily controlled by corporate interests, which is considered desirable by the establishment beholden to those interests. But because of this weakness I also fear that a Biden candidacy will mean four more Trump years.  --Lambiam 08:38, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll read the Slate article tomorrow (it's late here now) but the description sounds like wishful thinking on the authors' part. Obama was certainly seen as a savior in 2008, though he didn't work out that way in most regards. Sanders' supporters see Sanders as an FDR-like figure, but I don't know if FDR was seen as a saviour rather than just a repudiation of Hoover. The 1932 election besides installing FDR was definitely a huge Democratic sweep in Congress (don't know about state level). I didn't know anything about Hoover til recently, but he seems to have been an amazing character in his own right, per this book review. I can't tell from the review what if anything Hoover really did wrong as President and I'm not up on the history of that period. But Hoover's biography reminds me of Despoilers of the Golden Empire. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 09:29, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]