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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by AnM2002 (talk | contribs) at 17:00, 28 April 2022 (→‎Ruscism / Russism: Comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Some possible sources

Contemporary:

  • Shenfield, Stephen (2016). Russian fascism: traditions, tendencies and movements (Second ed.). London: Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781315500058. ISBN 9781315500058.
  • Umland, Andreas (January 2005). "Concepts of Fascism in Contemporary Russia and the West". Political Studies Review. 3 (1): 34–49. doi:10.1111/j.1478-9299.2005.00018.x.
  • Gregor, A. James (1998). "Fascism and the New Russian Nationalism". Communist and Post-Communist Studies. 31 (1): 1–15. ISSN 0967-067X.
  • Motyl, Alexander J. (23 April 2015). "Is Putin's Russia Fascist?". Atlantic Council.
  • Norris, Stephen M. (2015). ""The East is a Delicate Matter": Russian Culture and Eurasianism". The Russian Review. 74 (2): 187–190. ISSN 0036-0341.
  • Kolstø, Pål (2016). "Crimea vs. Donbas: How Putin Won Russian Nationalist Support—and Lost it Again". Slavic Review. 75 (3): 702–725. doi:10.5612/slavicreview.75.3.0702.
  • March, Luke (2007). Elusive Russia: Current Developments in Russian State Identity and Institutional Reform under President Putin. Leuven University Press. ISBN 978-90-5867-608-5.
  • Stanley, Jason (26 February 2022). "The antisemitism animating Putin's claim to 'denazify' Ukraine | Jason Stanley". The Guardian. Retrieved 6 March 2022.

(Counter argument:)

  • Laruelle, Marlène (2021). Is Russia fascist? Unraveling propaganda east and west. Ithaca [New York]: Cornell University Press. ISBN 9781501754135.

Historic:

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jr8825 (talk • contribs)

The question is which of those sources actually cover the subject of Rashism (a.k.a. Russicism or Ruscism) if this phenomenon even exists. Veverve (talk) 23:32, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here is a typical argument on this subject (from [1], probably qualify as a PhD thesis, written in 2012):
It is undeniable that Vladimir Putin’s rise to power bears significant resemblance to that of Adolf Hitler. This paper has demonstrated that, like Hitler in Weimar Germany, an authoritarian leader can come to power by capitalizing on the defeated mindset of a people who have undergone significant hardships. The collapse of the Soviet Union and the Yeltsin government’s approach to democracy significantly affected the average Russian. The people of Russia, like the Weimar Germans, felt betrayed. Russians share a belief that their great power status was taken from them without ever having lost a battle, that they have had to relinquish unfairly both territory and resources, and that they have had to endure both economic and political turmoil as a result. These feelings of betrayal, in conjunction with both Putin’s exploitation of the chaotic conditions of 1990s Russia and his authoritarian leadership style that promotes revanchism, irredentism and Russian fascism, have resulted in Putin’s assumption of ultimate power in Russia. The answer to the title question, as demonstrated by the comparison of the rise to power of Hitler and Putin, is that Putin, in many ways, is already Russia’s Hitler

My very best wishes (talk) 01:31, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your source is about Russia under Vladimir Putin, not Raschism. Veverve (talk) 22:39, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
These are all opinion pieces. BritishToff (talk) 16:19, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Editing problems

@Tsans2:
1. Your edit:

  • none of the sources are about "rachism" apart from this one which is a report on the opinion of a local deputy and thus not a RS to establish scientifically a concept.

2. Your edit:

  • [2], [3]: report on Danilov's opinion, nothing about The term "rashism" is in common usage among military and political elites of Ukraine. And the opinion of Danilov is not a scientific opinion or worthy of being mentioned.

3. Your edit:

  • Mykola Tomenko's opinion is irrelevant.

Veverve (talk) 23:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

disagree. it's just your own view what is relevant and what is not. Tsans2 (talk) 23:57, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Tsans2: WP:DUE, WP:RS. You have also added back all the non-reliable or unrelated references I had removed without justifying yourself. Veverve (talk) 00:43, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Justification for removal

@Tsan2: Let us review each of those source I have removed in this revert which you have added back numerous times. I had provided a rationale in my edit summaries for each of those removals; since you continue not to communicate, I will have to do it again here for those. The subject of the article, while vague, appears to be Russian Fascism/Raschism, an alleged specific form of Fascism, just like Maoism, Stalinism or Marxism-Leninism are a form of Marxism.

  • Рашизм і фашизм: знайдіть дві відмінності: despite the title, no mention of the topic, only numerous Conservative to far-right topics discussed here and there without any coherence between the topics. No mention of what the source is supposed to support in the article: "considered by many to be the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russian Federation in the 21st century. This interpretation is based on the ideas of the 'special civilizational mission' of the Russians, Moscow as the third Rome"
  • "Fascism and the New Russian Nationalism" : brief mentions of Fascism in Russia, the article is about Russian nationalism; no mention of the "expansionism" in the article, only that "For Ziuganov, Stalinism shorn of its Marxist-Leninist trappings, infused with nationalist and statist sentiments, rendered politically homogeneous, 'organic' in character (Ziuganov, 1997 p. 85), developmental in intent, and expansionist in practice, constitutes a political ideal." (p. 11; my emphasis), and that "What seems evident is that a plausible case can be made for the presence of Fascist elements in the political ideology of some of the major opponents of the Yeltsin administration in post-Soviet Russia. That those elements constitute the grounds for identifying its proponents as 'right-wing extremists' is, at least initially, counterintuitive." (p. 12)
  • "Is Putin's Russia Fascist?": the article states some people have called Russia under Vladimir Putin Fascist; it does not describe Russian Fascism/Raschism, simply that "Fascist regimes have charismatic dictators with hyper-masculine personality cults. These regimes generally evince a hyper-nationalist ethos, a cult of violence, mass mobilization of youth, high levels of repression, powerful propaganda machines, and imperialist projects. Fascist regimes are hugely popular—usually because the charismatic leader appeals to broad sectors of the population. Putin and his Russia fit the bill perfectly."
  • "Is it Time to Drop the F-Bomb on Russia? Why Putin is Almost a Fascist": the article states Russia under Vladimir Putin is almost Fascist; it does not describe Russian Fascism/Raschism
  • "The antisemitism animating Putin’s claim to 'denazify' Ukraine": the article states Russia under Vladimir Putin is Fascist; it does not describe Russian Fascism/Raschism
  • "Ідеологія рашизму має бути засуджена світом, як нацизм і фашизм – історик": copy-paste of an "opinion [...] expressed in a post on Facebook by historian, chairman of the Ivano-Frankivsk Regional Council Oleksandr Sych", not a notable nor reliable opinion although it does discuss the topic
  • "Amazon sells clothes with Russian military Z symbol", "Автомобили с буквой Z замечены в Уральске и Шымкенте", "Авто с наклейкой Z: водителя оштрафовали в Нур-Султане": absolutely no mention of the topic or anything related to political ideology, it simply describes how the "Z" symbol is used with no mention of Fascism. The Times article states: "Russians around the world have been daubing the white letter on black backgrounds to denote support for their army fighting in Ukraine. The adoption of the 'Z' as a symbolic expression of support is viewed as particularly controversial as it was originally daubed on tanks attacking Ukrainian cities. [...] Police in Kyrgyzstan, a former Soviet republic, said they would fine drivers featuring it on their cars. Czech police will treat the 'Z' symbol in the same way as the swastika." tengrinews.kz reports that in Kazakhstan the symbols "Z" and "O" are forbidden to be displayed on cars. So those source support most of the information in the line they are in front of, but no link is made, either in the WP article or in the newpaper articles, between the "Z" and Russian Fascism/Raschism.
  • I will not check the sources supporting what is written later about the Z symbol, as the symbol's link to the alleged Raschism has no been proved; those parts should simply be removed

Veverve (talk) 21:50, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree with regard to sources about letter Z. As about others, you are simply saying they are not on the subject, whereas they are actually on the subject of the alleged modern-day fascist political system and ideology in Russia (aka Rashism). I am not saying all these claims are completely true, but they are notable enough and sufficiently well sourced to be included on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:30, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @My very best wishes:
    • you are making you own WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. No reliable source has stated what you described. Those who have claimed the Putin gevernment was Fascist or had Fascist elements never used the term "Rashism", nor have they described the alleged Fascism or Fascist elements as part of a sub-ideology. At best those claims can be a section at Russia under Vladimir Putin, but cannot be an article.
    • you completely avoided the criticism of WP:FICTREF, you seem to even implicitly support those fictitious references. Veverve (talk) 16:40, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry, but no, this is all sourced or can be easily sourced. Word "Rashism" ("рашизм" in Russian) is an obvious combination of two words: "Russian" and "fascism". Speaking about English language sources, here are a couple of scholarly books saying it [4],[5]. Speaking about Russian language sources, this is very widely used [6] (I am linking only to books). Speaking about Ukrainian sources, well, you know. But again, this page is not about this specific word (there are many words to define the same), but about the subject of the alleged contemporary Russian fascism.My very best wishes (talk) 16:56, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes:
  • So you claim that when I wrote e.g. no mention of what the source is supposed to support in the article: "considered by many to be the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russian Federation in the 21st century. This interpretation is based on the ideas of the 'special civilizational mission' of the Russians, Moscow as the third Rome", there is indeed a mention of this in the article an I am deliberatly lying or have completely missed those parts?
  • I have already refuted your two sources here
  • The existence of a word does not mean it meets the encyclopedic criteria Veverve (talk) 17:06, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in your diff [7], not only you did not refute anything (because the discussion of Rashism in these books is on the subject of this page), but you actually supported what I just said, i.e. the flat denial of RS on your part. My very best wishes (talk) 17:12, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: The fact a word is used in a certain way is not related in any way to the topic. At best is it worth a Wiktionary entry. And you have once again ignored all my other arguments.
Either provide reliable sources that state the sub-ideology of Raschism is also called Russicism or Russian Fascism and provide details of them. The subject of the article is not "Suspicions of Fascism during Vladimir Putin's presidency", otherwise this would be only worth a section at Russia under Vladimir Putin. Veverve (talk) 17:21, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • First of all, you are not listening. I just said that the subject of this page is NOT word "Rashism", but the alleged fascist ideology and practice in that country. Why do you think they attacked Ukraine? These RS are providing one of the explanations. Moreover, the RS just have been already provided, right on the top of this page [8] and in this thread. My very best wishes (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @My very best wishes:
    • You have not conceded a single one of my points, which I interpret as you supporting the use of FICTREFs and disagreeing with all of the points I have made
    • So the subject of the article is "Fascism in Russia", not "Russian fascism"/"Raschism"/"Russicism". I am tired of playing with words. And yes, it revolves around words, as the words "Raschism" and "Russicism" are used by Ukrainians as catch-all, vague anti-Russian terms.
    • Why do you think they attacked Ukraine? These RS are providing one of the explanations which ones? No RS says that, and neither does the article. Veverve (talk) 17:42, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. The comparisons of Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022 and the Nazi invasion in 1941 are so abundant in discussions and so obvious. Here is just a random example in Russian language sources [10]. Author say: Today the heroic Ukrainian army is saving the world from a new fascist plague. No matter if you agree or not, it now appears so frequently in political and historical discourse that we can not ignore the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 18:40, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You have completely avoided almost all of my previous arguments. Veverve (talk) 18:58, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't read the entire discussion in-depth, but I am leaning towards Veverve's side. It definitely seems like at least some of these sources don't support the claims being given (eg. the articles that clearly say Putin is only nearly a fascist) or are only tangentially related to the article topic. I can't speak for all the sources, as I have not read all of them, but I think it's pretty obvious at least some should be removed. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 20:44, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, welcome to check sources and improve. However, this page is currently under AfD, and the scope is not clear. There are two options based on the AfD discussion I think. One of them is making a general page Russian fascism (instead of current disambig. page) that would cover a long period of time, i.e. sub-subjects that appear in the disambig. page. Another option would be to cover only the more narrow subject of "Ruscism/Rashism", i.e. the aggressive fascist-like ideology and practice of the current regime in Moscow, starting from First Chechen war (our page Putler would be a sub-page of such page). I think one could do both pages. I think someone recently suggested good sources here [11]. Something like that? Yes, that also seem to be on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 00:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As about that source[1], originally published in a journal by Duke University [12], that is actually a great source on this subject (do not judge by the title!). My very best wishes (talk) 01:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up

@My very best wishes and HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith: are we all agreeing on the remarks I made that those sources along with what they support must be removed from the article? If no, please explain why, e.g. by showing that the information the sources are supposed to support in the WP article are indeed in said sources and thereby refuting my FICTREF claims. Veverve (talk) 16:46, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, I do not think the discussion above shows agreement. As about sources, many new just appeared, such as [13], [14],[15],[16],[17], etc., along with older ones [18]. Sources on this subject are very easy to get. My very best wishes (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And of course this: [19]. Unfortunately, the cited article by Timothy D. Snyder is behind paywall. My very best wishes (talk) 22:03, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: I did not discuss any of those sources you have just now presented. Please stay on topic.
Do I have to individually ask you e.g.: "show me in 'Рашизм і фашизм: знайдіть дві відмінності' where you see any mention of the topic and the fact that Rashism is 'considered by many to be the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russian Federation in the 21st century. This interpretation is based on the ideas of the ‘special civilizational mission’ of the Russians, Moscow as the third Rome'."? This is what this discussion is about, about whether or not those sources along with what they support must be removed from the article. Veverve (talk) 22:38, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"where you see any mention of the topic"? Whole article is obviously on the subject (Google translation: [20]). Does it support such exact wording? No, I think it would better be used to support another statement (I just fixed it). Also, the lead could be rephrased, but certainly not in the way you did [21], i.e. a removal of sourced and explanatory description in the lead and replacement it by a meaningless phrase. My very best wishes (talk) 00:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: no, it is not about the topic at all apart from having the word in the title. And no reliable source talks about Raschism being the current ideology of Putin's government, even less of said ideology being linked to the Moscow, Third Rome concept. Veverve (talk) 12:20, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You have no answered concerning the other sources I mentioned. Do you believe they have to be kept and that they contain the information I stated they did not? Veverve (talk) 23:37, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I guess your silence means you agree on my removal of those sources and the information they were supposed to support but in fact do not. Veverve (talk) 13:02, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tsan2's revert

@Tsans2: you have restored those information which I had removed since they were not included in the sources. Your justification is "sources are ok". Please explain where you found all those information in the sources; as for me, I have already produced an analysis explaining why none of those information are to be found in the sources given.
You also restored the "the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of the Russian Federation in the 21st century" (I had changed it to "the alleged political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of the Russian Federation in the 21st century" with @Buidhe:'s support). Please also explain why you have gone against the consensus here. Veverve (talk) 14:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

New additions

@Tsans2: I see you have made a new addition. Here are my thoughts:

  • "The terms rashism and rashist are in common usage among military and political elites of Ukraine, as well by journalist, influencers, bloggers, etc." -> none of the three sources state this. You have quoted one UNIAN article, one defence-ua.com article which is not a RS from what I understand, and one glavcom.ua article. Each article uses the expression (either one or the other, or both), but none of those articles state the expressions "are in common usage among military and political elites of Ukraine, as well by journalist, influencers, bloggers, etc." This is pure WP:SYNTH and WP:OR at best. And what does "etc." mean here?
  • Why should we care (WP:DUE) about what Oleksiy Danilov has to say?
  • Russian philosopher Mikhail Epstein in 2022 has described the whole current Russian society as 'schizo-fascism,' meaning: 'fascism that is hiding under the mask of fighting against fascism.' " + "President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky calls current political regime in Russia as well as Russian invasion as Russian fascism." -> This is a consideration for Fascist (insult). Moreover, the vague consensus on this article's scope is that it is not any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin.

So, unless you can justify those additions, I will remove them. Veverve (talk) 10:08, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Common usage is common, as the grass is green. but okay, I will rephrase it.
  2. Nope, why should you care? because, you are the one who wanted to delete this article, and now, you are obsessed with it? it's okay for everyone - what Danilov says, but not you. So please, justify why we shouldn't care what top war politician of Ukraine says officially and condemns russians in context of russian fascism.
  3. This is a consideration for Fascist (insult). - nope, you don't know the topic neither you speak Ukrainian or Russian to understand it. Regarding this: Moreover, the vague consensus on this article's scope - it's just your idea or statement. You wrote it, you defend it, I'm lucky with that, but don't make it a point here.
Tsans2 (talk) 07:52, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Tsans2:
1) none of the sources you have added claim this expression is common
2) we should not care about what politicians have to say in general when it comes to political science. Why is his opinion worth more than any other politician? I will not answer your ad hominem attack, but I ask you to stop.
3) "you don't know the topic" -> Then please, since you created this article, explain what the topic is supposed to be at Talk:Russian fascism (ideology)#Scope of the article. Meanwhile, my opinion and that of @Buidhe: seem to form a consensus on the basis of a scope to say that any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin does not consitute the scope of the article.
I will revert those additions once again, because you are supposed to discuss before adding as per WP:BRD; you clearly do not have "a better understanding of the reverter's concerns". Veverve (talk) 14:04, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Veverve 1) I don't mention common - don't mess up
2) why it cares, because it's an official position. this article (the one you wanted to delete) is not about only political science, it's more broad topic. so we do care what Dudaev says, Putin says, Danilov says.
3) it's only your idea. no one revert my edits, but only you. you have been banned for a week from editing this page. and what? no one reverted my edits. what does that mean?
You also deleted not only the text I've returned, but also new thoughts of Ukrainians historians on Rashism. You thought I wouldn't see this? Or you think that the views of Ukrainian historians are not worth mentioning here?
I reverted my edits because you even don't read the article. please be careful. Tsans2 (talk) 21:44, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Tsans2:
  • "The terms rashism and rashist started circulating in usage among military and political elites of Ukraine and media." -> none of the source says that the terms rashism and rashist started circulating in usage among military and political elites of Ukraine and media. This is FICTREF and OR from primary sources.
  • it's an official position the official position of what? this politician?
  • You have not expressed any opinion when 12 days ago I asked for feedback on what the scope of the article should be. Do you want to change the lede to something akin to "In Russia, there has been and is some fascist movement and groups as well as claims that some groups in Russia are fascists and comparisons between the actions of some groups in Russia and past fascist regimes"? Feel free to suggest that this article become the most catch-all possible; from the person who defined the scope of the article as "the political ideology and social practice of the ruling regime of Russia in the early XXI century based on the ideas of the 'special civilizational mission' of the Russians, intolerance, xenophobia, paternalism, Soviet-style imperialism, the use of Russian Orthodoxy as a moral doctrine, and on geopolitical instruments of influence, such as nuclear arsenal, energy resources etc.", I find it quite strange you now suddenly want the scope to be as broad as possible.
  • You have also been banned for a week from editing this article. And you have been reverted by another user, and never argued back on this revert. I have nothing against you personnaly, if this is your concern. I will admit one thing: I appear to be the only one who cares enough that the Wikipedia standards be applied to this article to be working on it.
Per WP:BRD, I ask you to undo your edit; the basis for all discussion is to go back to WP:QUO. Otherwise, I will open an ANI. Veverve (talk) 22:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't revert. I put back what is supported by sources and I argued it here. You contstantly delete my additions, including the latest ones with Ukrainian historians. That proves you either don't read the article or don't like their views. Tsans2 (talk) 09:23, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not use personal attacks on talk pages, like calling other editors Ukrainiphobic. It's WP policy to assume good faith, and base your discussion on policy rather than character. You may want to strike out or remove that part of your post. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 03:52, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I removed that part you highlighted. It is possible insulting. Thanks! Tsans2 (talk) 09:25, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, ANI it is then. Also two other sources are FICTREF, the closest thing to the content they support is as follows:
  • pravda.com.ua: "Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Oleksiy Danilov is convinced that the word 'racism' has already exceeded 'fascism' in terms of cruelty to civilians."
  • "Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Oleksiy Danilov noted that it is time for the world to get acquainted with a new type of war crimes - racists."
-> No mention of Danilov "advocat[ing] on the natioanl level the use of the word in the meaning of Russian/Putin's fascism, to describe Russia's aggression against Ukraine". I also note that this wording is not neutral at all even if it is what Ukranews says (see below).
Ukranews does contain something akin to Danilov "advocat[ing] on the national level the use of the word in the meaning of Russian/Putin's fascism, to describe Russia's aggression against Ukraine", but it does not precise whether it is Danilov's opinion or an official policy, or whether it is a natonal or international appeal. I will also note that the article uses the expression "путінський фашизм" ("Putinian fascism") to describe raschism; it seem to me that is what the subject of the article should be for Tsans2, despite the lack of clarity of the user's declaration, i.e. any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin. Veverve (talk) 11:30, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Snegovaya, Maria. "Is it Time to Drop the F-Bomb on Russia? Why Putin is Almost a Fascist". Retrieved 2022-02-26.

Scope of the article

It seems there are somee problems defining the scope of the article.
Here are my thought on what the article is about, from what I can read in the lede:

  • The alleged sub-ideology of Fascism allegedly followed by the Putin government; this sub-ideology's name is "Raschism", "Russicism", "Ruscism" and it has defined characteristics which make it different from other forms of Fascism

-->The article should therefore never have been named "Russian fascism (ideology)"; all the versions of the article are called "Raschism", see wikidata:Q15975478. Therefore, I am in favour of a page move of the article to "Raschism".
Here are my thought on what the article is NOT about, unless on a case-by-base basis a clear link is made with the (alleged) Raschism ideology:

  • Accusations or claims of Vladimir Putin being a Fascist
  • The broader topic of Russia under Vladimir Putin
  • The 2022 invasion of Ukraine by Russia
  • The History of Fascist movements in Russia
  • Parallels between Fascist Italy/the Third Reich/Francoist Spain and Russia under Vladimir Putin
  • Russian far-right in general
  • Russian nationalism

Do you agree on my evaluation of the scope of the article? Veverve (talk) 20:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yous suggested: The sub-ideology of Fascism followed by the Putin government; this sub-ideology's name is "Raschism", "Russicism", "Ruscism". Yes, I agree, this is the scope (but then #1, #3, and #5 above must be prominently included!). Yes, one could make such section on page Russia under Vladimir Putin, but that does not precludes from having also a separate page which describes the subject in more detail. My very best wishes (talk) 00:17, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, you do not agree. You believe any claim of Russia being a Fascist government and any comparison of past Fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin is the scope of the article. Veverve (talk) 10:30, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I find absurd to create a page with such a broad title with so many more-or-less-related-but-not-that-much-when-you-look-at-it topics. It seems to me as absurd as creating a page called Russian communism (ideology) about actual History of Communism in Russia, an alleged ideology of "Russinism", and Russia under Vladimir Putin, because Major Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk has compared some of Putin's action during the 2022 invasion of Ukraine to that of Joseph Stalin and comparisons have been made between Communist practices and Russia under Vladimir Putin. Veverve (talk) 17:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Redirect already. There is nothing in this article that is salvageable.  The made up term, promoted by unreliable Ukrainian publications is all we have got here. NavjotSR (talk) 05:46, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I will speak my mind concerning this article. We do not have the time to wait for someone to create an article on the broader topic of fascism in Russia to replace the current article, since the recent versions of the article, with all of their unacceptable flaws and their vague scope, have already been used as translation material in many languages of other versions of Wikipedia. The article as it is cannot remain, for its problems of scope and the numerous FICTREFs which populate it and which the two main authors (Tsans2 and Jafaz) seem to be fond of. It has been WP:DEADLINENOW for too long for this article without anyone willing or able to take the necessary steps to uphold Wikipedia's standards and policies. With the recent topic-ban of Tsans2 the (among other things) POV-pusher, now I feel is the time to do some cleaning.
A) First and foremost: the current title does not reflect the content of this article at all. The title needs to change.
B.α) There are three scopes which I have seen being proposed or implicitly proposed for this article:
  1. accusations of Russia under Vladimir Putin of being fascist
  2. any claim of Russia having a fascist or fascist-ish government at one point in time, and any comparison of past fascist governments with Russia under Vladimir Putin
  3. ratschism
The problems are: the first two subjects could easily fit into a section at Russia under Vladimir Putin or Russian nationalism, the third one has no notability in the WP:GNG sense.
B.β) I have two solutions:
My solutions are not great after an AfD... but what did those who decided to keep the article want to keep, exactly? What scope and subject did they deem notable? I do not see it, and a good portion of the "keep" votes are WP:ILIKEIT.
@NavjotSR and HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith: what are yout thoughts on this? If no one opposes my proposals, I will enact one of my two solutions. Veverve (talk) 05:01, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No objections, this article is a pretty big mess as is. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 17:30, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have completed the redirect now because the subject fails WP:GNG and no attempts were made to prove this to be wrong probably because it is not possible to. Anyone who wants to revert the redirect should better establish GNG here and propose what they want to write than abiding by the misleading WP:SYNTH of the older version. NavjotSR (talk) 04:32, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Veverve, My very best wishes -- it seems that at this point most editors agree that Russia, especially recently, is in many substantial ways behaving as a fascist state. There are articles on this subject, some are already listed, but more have appeared recently e.g. [22][23]. It seems that the debate is primarily about the terminology. There is already an article about Putinism, which in itself is compared to fascism. A few days ago, Polish PM described Russia as "totalitarian-fascist state" [24]. It seems that Putinism has been transforming into the Russian fascism as a more distinct ideology. However, it is not yet universally accepted view, as some scholars/observers/politicians do voice it, while some not (yet). In any case, this is a notable (WP:N) subject and deserves an article, either as a more general "Fascism in Russia" or a more distinct "Russian fascism" article. --Mindaur (talk) 13:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mindaur:
    it seems that at this point most editors agree that Russia, especially recently, is in many substantial ways behaving as a fascist state: then please edit Russia under Vladimir Putin or Draft:Fascism in Russia#After the breakup of the Soviet Union if you want those considerations to be added. This very article (Russian fascism (ideology)) has been a pain for all its existence.
    A few days ago, Polish PM described Russia as "totalitarian-fascist state" why should we care? Are we going to quote Korwin-Mikke on any issues he tacles? Being a PM does not mean your opinion is notable or scientific. Veverve (talk) 17:18, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re to Mindaur (since I was pinged). Yes, absolutely. I will take a look later when I have time. It will take some time, definitely days. Please do not effectively delete this page against results of the AfD. My very best wishes (talk) 02:28, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The consensus is to turn this page into a redirect. The AfD ended with no consensus; weeks of discussion later we do have a consensus. Veverve (talk) 02:38, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Where do you see consensus to to turn this page into a redirect? Please make an official RfC about it and have it officially closed (just as the AfD). And please self-revert. My very best wishes (talk) 02:48, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
NavjotSR, HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith, Detsom and me have supported turning the article into a redirect. An external observers, Czello, has also seen there was a consensus. Veverve (talk) 02:54, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whatever the renaming, this page must be moved to new title to preserve edit history. The subject of this page, as it was originally created and written, is the theory (or claims and research) suggesting that the current political system in Russia represent a variety of fascism. The exact title is debatable. I would suggest "Rashism" as a title that appears in English language RS (see a couple of books linked above), most familiar for Russian and Ukrainian speaking people. There is even a well-known old song by Boris Sevasianov about it [25] (translation):

This is, baby, Rashism,
Orthodox Fascism!
...

If you can suggest a better title for this subject, that's fine. But can you please stop reverting? My very best wishes (talk) 14:49, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes:
  • this page must be moved to new title to preserve edit history: the Template:Copied can be used for cases where the attribution is needed
  • the title "Russian fascism (ideology)" as per WP:PRECISE is absolutely unfit for making an article about 'claims that Russia in the 21st century is fascist and its variety of fascism is called rashysm'.
  • at best, the word "rashysm" can have an entry at the Ukrainian wiktionary; I have yet to find reliable sources detailing this alleged political ideology (and as you can see below, I have asked; so far no one has provided any). Again, as I stated in my talk page, feel free to prove me wrong
  • I feel creating a "Raschism" article to put 'claims that Russia in the 21st century is fascist and its variety of fascism is called rashysm' is very close to WP:COATRACK
  • stop making it about me individially reverting; numerous users have reverted this article to a redirect
Veverve (talk) 15:39, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • That word appears in English language sources (books) as "Rashism", not "Rashysm". So, you apparently do not like such title? I will think about something else, but in any event, this page must be moved to new title to preserve edit history. My very best wishes (talk) 15:51, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    There is also a draft page at Draft:Ruscism, or should it be Russism / Rashism / Rashysm? It seems like we're coming up with new names for clearly defined historical concepts (i.e. Fascism & Nationalism). Detsom (talk) 16:31, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree these are not the best titles, precisely for the reasons you say. And yes, we should have page Fascism in Russia. But this page is not about fascism in Russia (yes, obviously, there are neo-Nazi everywhere), but more like Fascist Russia, i.e. about the claim that Russian state/country today is a fascist state/country (according to [26],[27], and a number of other source that were cited on the page, but now removed altogether). This is something different. My very best wishes (talk) 16:46, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One possible solution would be renaming this page to Ideology of Russian fascism. The ideology of Russian fascism is not the same as ideology of German Nazism, for example. But it would be a scope/subject different from the scope/subject of the current page. My very best wishes (talk) 17:23, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to create another article, with a WP:PRECISE name and not something like 'ideology of Russian fascism', from scratch for claims that Russia under Vladimir Putin is fascist or akin to fascist, but only if such a topic has enough information and coverage to be treated as a separated article and not simply as a section of Russia under Vladimir Putin. Veverve (talk) 17:59, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mentioned at the WP:AN page (and a little above), I started work on a draft page Draft:Fascism_in_Russia (in general draft space not my user area) and laid it out and added some text as a starting point. Unfortunately I have no time to work on it and will be taking it no further but my suggestion would be to publish it and then work on adding the information there rather than expanding the scope of other pages. That way there is a definitive master "Fascism in Russia" page which talks about it for the last 150 years (or so) with links to other articles. Gusfriend (talk) 10:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Draft:Fascism in Russia should be worked on and the content should be independent of the content that existed on this page. NavjotSR (talk) 05:19, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, sure, no one objected to this. Such page is on a more general subject, partially overlapped with the subject of this page. But this does not preclude renaming and fixing this page, which is about the alleged fascist nature of Putin's regime. However, I am going to mostly stay away from any subjects related to Russia, and therefore leave resolving this to others. My very best wishes (talk) 17:16, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Based on that, I now restored the page. Fascism in Russia is a legitimate, but a different page or sub-page even if we want to treat this page as Ideology of Russian fascism (I do not think so). If anyone wants to delete this page against the previous global consensus (i.e. AfD), please start an AfD or RfC. Renaming is a different matter. If anyone wants to rename this page, please start new thread with suggestion(s). My very best wishes (talk) 11:43, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Veverve I thought we had redirected this page but it appears @My very best wishes has restored it. There was consensus on redirect so confused as to why the page was restored. Detsom (talk) 19:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Detsom: as I have been told at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Veverve, to consider this local consensus as binding and enforcing it is considered disruptive and going against WP:CONLEVEL (and possibly being blinded by [...] POV), as the AfD results take priority. Veverve (talk) 20:09, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
PS: @Detsom: as for the state of the restoration and the article currently, see my comment at #Restoration. Veverve (talk) 20:11, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol "Z"

Symbol "Z" of racism resulting from Russia's attack on Ukraine in 24 February 2022. 84.108.231.36 (talk) 15:53, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No source claims that. Veverve (talk) 14:06, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of source can proof this words. You can choose for example by yourself https://www.google.com/search?q=z+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%B0&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiY89eyxPj2AhV2_bsIHWxFCyMQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=z+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%B0&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIECAAQGDIECAAQGDIECAAQGDIECAAQGDoKCAAQsQMQgwEQQzoFCAAQgAQ6BAgAEAM6CAgAEIAEELEDOgQIABBDOgQIABAeOgYIABAIEB5QzAVY3RRg0xVoAHAAeACAAYYBiAH2CZIBBDAuMTCYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=6-hJYtjRKPb67_UP7IqtmAI&bih=664&biw=1536&rlz=1C1CHBF_ruUA892UA892 DmytroKov (talk) 18:35, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What? Veverve (talk) 21:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Symbol "Z" doesnt mean anything by itself, stop draw parallels with swastika. Hrkcz001 (talk) 16:37, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Russia's actions in Ukraine are giving the symbol "Z" a meaning all to itself --Jason C.K. (talk) 13:44, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2022

Typo: In the section "Ideology of Russian fascism" the word "racism" is used twice where I think that "rashism" is the intended word. 38.109.87.242 (talk) 20:00, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect so nothing to see here. NavjotSR (talk) 04:28, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Title

Page has since been moved to Rashism, discussion is moot
The following discussion has been closed by HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith. Please do not modify it.

What kind of word is "Russian fascism"? I don't think that anybody has heard of this term applied to this concept. This looks like a pretty horrid violation of WP:COMMONNAME. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 15:15, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dunutubble: the title was very likely chosen to hide the numerous problems this article has (see among other things: Talk:Russian fascism (ideology)#Scope of the article). Veverve (talk) 15:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of problems can be checked. Can you, please, clarify? DmytroKov (talk) 18:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Such as the use of FICTREFs or the vagueness around the scope of this article. Veverve (talk) 21:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Soft deletion via redirect

@Veverve: I see your huge contributions to this article and I'm thankful for that. However, I don't see the point why to delete the page after consensus was not foudn on AfD a few weeks. If the administrator decided to redirect, than it would be kind of AfD resolution. But to redirect (soft delete) the page here when not so many users are involved in the process, is at least hasty. --IgorTurzh (talk) 19:01, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is a clearly a consensus for redirection at #Scope of the article. You are trying to WP:BUREAUCRACY. Veverve (talk) 19:20, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Veverve I see. than I will try to make Rashism article and focus mainly on that. IgorTurzh (talk) 19:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@IgorTurzh: I would disadvise that. From all the sources I could find, the alleged "Raschism" ideology is not notable or defined precisely. Each definition I have seen looks more like an excuse to insult (and I mean real insults, not opinions) Russia under Vladimir Putin. If this topic exists, why is there no RS on it? Why is there no reliable political science journal or academically published book discussing it? Veverve (talk) 19:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's tricky. Ukrainian historians started talking about Rashism. Isn't it enough or only American/Western are reliable? By the way, https://theconversation.com/yes-putin-and-russia-are-fascist-a-political-scientist-shows-how-they-meet-the-textbook-definition-179063 is this a good source in this context? IgorTurzh (talk) 19:46, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ukrainian historians started talking about Rashism: in what reliable sources?
This article you linked is 99% about Russia under Vladimir Putin (or a hypothetical Accusation of fascism against Russia article), with one line on the term "rashyst" described more as an insult or a joke than a political ideology (see also WP:PASSINGMENTION). Veverve (talk) 19:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Restoration

I see @My very best wishes: (MVBW) has restored the page. I note that the version restored is filled with FICTREFs, states Russia under Vladimir Putin being fascist is a fact (despite the disparity in the sources concerning this), and equates the expression of 'Russian fascism' with 'raschism' despite the total lack of source doing this and the fact the existence of raschism is not supported by reliable sources (statements from politicians in times of war and newspaper pamphlets are not RSs, scientific journals exist). I had explained most FICTREFs previously in this talk page at #Editing problems to which I add this explanation, and this one for suspicions of FICTREF. The user has stated in their restoration that they did not approve of the version they restored. Still, MVBW did not restore the version from which I had expurged the FICTREFs I had seen (I did not check all references) and which I had made more neutral. Veverve (talk) 11:50, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to add: it is also unproven that the expression 'Russian fascism' is a consecated phrase for any kind of fixed ideology the same way e.g. Strasserism, Italian Fascism or National Socialism are. Veverve (talk) 11:55, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And I see the user @GuptaGauptar: has also added back lots of unsourced statements (e.g. the Z (military symbol) being an "unofficial symbol of fascism" is still unsourced) and FICTREFs I had removed with explanations ad #Editing problems. Oh well, since I am very likely soon-to-be-topic-banned from here, I will not try to change those things. Frankly, it appears this article is destined to not to follow Wikipedia's standards.
@NavjotSR, Mindaur, and HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith:, feel free to debate the same points made again and again at this talk page if you care enough (I would not blame you if you did not and left the page as is lol). From what @My very best wishes:, who really wants to edit this page and become its main designer, has demonstrated, the user does not pay attention to what the sources say [edit: when it comes to this article], each time deflecting my criticism or coming back on their statement. Also pinging @PulauKakatua19, Mzajac, and Newslinger: who have already debated the 'Z and fascism' topic at Talk:Z (military symbol). Veverve (talk) 19:49, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Edited my initial message. As shown at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Anonimu, My very best wishes can be very good at spotting FICTREFs and requesting that statements in an article be sourced. Veverve (talk) 05:59, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This page needed to be restored per this comment on WP:AE [28]. My very best wishes (talk) 21:21, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense, but shouldn't the FICTREFs, state[ments that] Russia under Vladimir Putin being fascist is a fact (despite the disparity in the sources concerning this), and equates the expression of 'Russian fascism' with 'raschism' despite the total lack of source doing this and the fact the existence of raschism is not supported by reliable sources Veverve mentioned still be removed? HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 22:44, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming this page

I would suggest the following versions to rename this page:

  1. Rashism (currently a redirect)
  2. Fascist transformation of Russian state

Any other suggestions are welcome. But in any event, we must move this page to keep edit history, rather than create new page. As a note, "Rashism" is not "Russian fascism", even though it is constructed as a combination of these words. This is specifically a claim that Russian state and society underwent transformation to a fascist country in the context of military aggression, from First Chechen War to 2022 invasion of Ukraine. To be more precise, it appeared as word "Ruscism" (like here [29], not Russism!) after First Chechen War, but is more common as "Rashism" since the beginning of Russo-Ukrainian war in 2014. I would expect to wait at least for a few days, maybe a week prior to making any move of the page. My very best wishes (talk) 12:40, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes I do belive that Rashism is more clear. GuptaGauptar (talk) 18:50, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support option 1. Ive always thought this page title was way too vague and ambiguous. Having a more clear subject matter would clear up a lot. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 19:57, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Russian fascism is a very vague term that could cause confusion with 20th-century politicians like Rodzayevsky and Dobrovolsky as well as non-establishment Russian fascist organisations. Rashism is best left untranslated as the pun is hard to translate. TheImperios (talk) 08:43, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Z images

There's a few images here with Zs on them with no sources supporting their status as "symbols of Russian fascism/Rashism." I'm gonna remove these for now until someone finds a source. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 17:27, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • First of all, there are multiple sources defining it as "Zwastika" with an obvious reference to swastika, for example [30],[31]. Some other sources directly say this is new version of swastika,e.g. [32],[33]. For example, "Now, the “Z” has become akin to a new “swastika” or symbol of hatred and is showing up everywhere supporters of Russia’s uninvited invasion of Ukraine can be found." [34]. Hence the sources clearly consider it as new Russian Nazi symbolism. My very best wishes (talk) 03:07, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Loose comparisons to the swastika are not the same thing as the Z being a “symbol of fascism”. That’s a different claim. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 14:04, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All these sources say this is a Neo-Nazi symbol, similar to swastika. This is not just "a loose comparison", please check the direct citation above and what these sources say. My very best wishes (talk) 15:38, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just saw your edit on the caption of the image. That makes a lot more sense with what the sources say, thanks! No further objections. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 15:45, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are you people kidding me?

Wtf is this 1st sentence calling current regime in Russia fascist? Do any of you even know what fascism is? I guess not but it is not when you disagree with someone nor is it when someone declares war to other country btw, Russian current system has barely. You can argue Russia is the bad guy but that doesn’t make someone or something fascist Novodobaski (talk) 10:51, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]


My answer is solely contained in the Miriam Webster Dictionary definition of facism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Further, I will say that the dictatorial leader is Putin, the severe regimentation is the Russian state television & it's propigation of untrue statements (i.e. that the Ukraine invasion is a 'de-Nazification'), and the forcible suppression of opposition is exampled by Pussy Riot, Navalny, & the law recently passed by the Russian Duma outlawing ANY criticism of the invasion, up to, and including, calling it an invasion.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkSummoner (talk • contribs) 20:47, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to this interpretación of the "Miriam Webster Dictionary definition", countries like China or North Korea are fascists, too. This is one of the weirdest jokes I've ever heard, as you equal communism and fascism. It also proves that this non-rigurous use of the term Fascism is just propaganda, not appropiate for a serious encyclopedia. It's obvious that the concept is used by serious historians to describe a certain ideology in the 20s and 30s based on racial theories. Btw, Russia doesn't have a "severe ecomomic regimentation" or a centralized economy, it endorses a market economy. PedroAcero76 (talk) 23:44, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]



I have changed the phrasing to “alleged ideology”. I could have sworn someone had already fixed that, but it must have gotten lost in some big revert. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 13:59, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This article is clearly aimed at demonizing Russia half of the sources are ukrainian (lol) 212.35.186.30 (talk) 17:03, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I see millenials are finally taking over wikipedia.
Soon there will be nothing but blatant propaganda in here.
Sad.
Rashism. :D :D :D, new words, new meanings, new reality, huraaay188.214.108.12 (talk) 11:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Taken from wiki page on Fascism.
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and the economy Grayraw (talk) 10:00, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of mouthbreather is responsible for this crap of a page? Everyone involved in this should be banned from Wikipedia without expiration.129.69.114.21 (talk) 14:47, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please cut back on the incivil comments. I also think there are some massive problems with the page, but that's no reason for that kind of language. You might want to either edit your own wording or strike out your message. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 15:11, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removal

It has an icon "English" (right upper corner of the page), you can use it. This is something for general public, hence simplifications, like "X,Y,Z are same" instead of saying more accurately they are similar in a number of aspects (that is what author means), etc. But a number of points, like corruption of the regime are not at all extraordinary, but rather common place. My very best wishes (talk) 20:32, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @My very best wishes, setting aside WP:RSCONTEXT (the reason I gave for the removal), this is from the top of the English translation: "The article is co-authored by the analytical center “VoxUkraine” and “History as it is”, a popular YouTube channel with unembellished and true takes on the history of Ukraine and the world". This doesn't look to me like WP:SCHOLARSHIP (the type of sourcing we want for a political science article such as this one). The WaPo article describes VoxUkraine as a "blog" featuring Ukrainian economists, so it should be treated as a self-published per WP:BLOG. It seems a serious stretch for it to call itself an "analytical center". Also, having a PhD in history doesn't give someone the reputation of a recognised, well-known subject-matter expert. This isn't a high-quality source, and it's being used to make significant claims. Part of the problem with this article currently is that editors aren't scrutinising and critically evaluating the sources that are being used. We'd have a much stronger article if we stuck to peer-reviewed/reliably published sources, or sources from well-regarded experts with established reputations. Jr8825 • Talk 22:22, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • This all boils down to the question: does the author qualify as an expert on the subject? Quickly looking [38], it seems he is an author of several books, presumably 200+ scientific publications, works as a Leading scientist in a scientific institution, and was a host of a program. More info here: "Before the war, historian Vladlen Marayev ran a popular Ukrainian YouTube channel called History Without Myths with more than 300,000 subscribers." (here). So, yes, I am assuming he is an expert. My very best wishes (talk) 23:19, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I might be reading your comment wrong, but having a popular YouTube channel doesn’t make someone an expert. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 00:55, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, but authoring books and many scientific publications does make someone an expert. That is very generally speaking. My very best wishes (talk) 01:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Marayev has a sufficiently established reputation to be used as a self-published source, particularly as his main expertise appears to be WW1-era Ukraine, rather than contemporary Russian politics. The livelib link you provided appears to indicate he has worked indirectly for the Ukrainian army since 2019, which suggests he may be reliable but not impartial (hence my pointing to RSCONTEXT). If we were quoting his published books, or articles written in publications subject to editorial review (there's no indication this is the case at VoxUkraine), then I think we should consider using his work, provided it's attributed appropriately. Established experts on Russian politics should be given preference, though. Jr8825 • Talk 02:09, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, a scientific review/analysis like this would be better. As about VoxUkraine, they claim to do fact checking [39] and would not publish anyone, so this is more like an "opinion" by a historian in a news source. But it maybe not needed on the page, I need to check this and other sources later. My very best wishes (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The whole article is complete nonsense. There is no ideology in Russia. Nobody offers to destroy the "Ukainians". All sources in the article refer to Ukrainian fake news, which is no different in quality from random posts by random people on Twitter or Facebook. It's like referring to the newspapers of the Third Reich in the description of the anti-Hitriler coalition and calling them alliesism. The letter Z is not a symbol of the destruction of anything, it's just a letter meaning a group of the Russian army (Z - zapad (west), V - vostok (east)). Which internationally recognized court recognized this letter as prohibited? None. There are only attempts by Western countries to block support for Russia among their citizens, thus supporting the Ukrainian government, nothing more. And here they refer to it as something natural and self-evident. About the definitions of "fascism" that are indicated here about some kind of dictatorship - this is generally a childish level of thinking. You can also say that Hitler wore underpants, so everyone who wears underpants is a fascist. Fascists/Nazis deprived people of human rights on a national basis. Everything was allowed to be done against them, including deprivation of property, slave working conditions in concentration camps and generally treated as disenfranchised creatures, including experiments on people and destruction on an industrial scale in furnaces. In this sense, capitalism (in Nazi Germany there was capitalism that served the Wehrmacht) is much closer to these phenomena. But even here it is necessary to draw a line between the absence of contradictions between capitalism and Nazism, and the active actions of the Nazis in power. The whole article is an attempt by Ukrainians to smear everything around with their own shit (sorry for this word, but there is no other). This should be removed, as well as other -isms that have nothing to do with reality. 176.77.56.106 (talk) 12:50, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    90% of your comment is incorrect. But I'll only spend the time to reply to some of the most offensive and ridiculous misinformation you offered: "Nobody offers to destroy the "Ukainians"??? Putin has said Ukraine is not a real country, it should not exist. Official Russian state news agency published a terrifying genocidal manifesto (http://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html). It calls for the complete eradication of Ukrainian culture, history, gov't, language, and nation. That all of that must be wiped from existence. Russia has already been doing this in Ukraine. Just at a much smaller scale than they hoped-for by this point.
    "There are only attempts by Western countries to block support for Russia among their citizens" No, there is no attempt to block support. There is no need. There is no support for Russia anymore. "Fascists/Nazis deprived people of human rights on a national basis": Russia is depriving Ukrainians of human rights on a national basis. When they drop bombs on babies, moms, and other civilians, rape toddlers and women and impregnate them, execute them, blow-up civilian infrastructure, blockade cities so people starve...you are depriving them of human rights. "deprivation of property": Russia is blowing-up civilian property, and looting it. Also putting explosive traps in people's washing machines, refrigerators, etc.
    "slave working conditions in concentration camps": Ukrainian civilians are being forcibly deported by the thousands to camps in Russia. They are stripped of all identification and cell phones, and being forced to work. Others are being forcibly conscripted to be part of the Russian invasion.
    You seem to not have the slightest idea of what Russia is doing in their invasion --Jason C.K. (talk) 03:49, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Putin has said Ukraine is not a real country.
    I did not hear it from him.
    ... genocidal manifesto... It calls for the complete eradication of Ukrainian culture, history, gov't, language, and nation.
    Nope. You do not know Ukrainian history. The territory of Ukraine has always been a part of Russia, partly Poland or Austria-Hungary. Before the Bolsheviks created it, it never existed. The Poles began to convince the Russians that they were not Russians, but the people occupied by the Russians. It was later used by the Nazis in World War II. From these "Ukrainians" (who decided that they are non-Russians) they created SS battalions, rebel armies, etc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army). After the end of World War II, Ukraine was a normal state. After 1991, the separatists (who separated the Ukrainian SSR from the USSR) turned on Nazi propaganda with the same theme - Ukrainians were occupied and must take revenge. Since then, "Nazi Ukraine" has begun. The red and black flags from the article above you can now see in Ukraine as Right Sector flags. Those who fought on the side of the Nazis in World War II are now being studied in Ukrainian schools as heroes. This fake history, this ideology of hatred to russians must be removed entirely, from education programs etc. It has nothing to do with culture or language. Ukrainian is the official language in Crimea. No Ukrainian symbols or anything other than World War II nazi symbols are prohibited.
    No, there is no attempt to block support. There is no need. There is no support for Russia anymore.
    If you say so...
    Russia is depriving Ukrainians of human rights on a national basis.
    Blatant lie. Prove it.
    When they drop bombs on babies, moms, and other civilians, rape toddlers and women and impregnate them...
    Wtf i just read? Well, of course. Senseless cruelty which makes no sense. But it is very convenient to blame opponents for this, it immediately allows you to do anything against them. Such nonsense is told you by the Western media about everyone who does not follow orders from Washington. Very handy for inciting hatred. Fairy tales about evil wizards who do evil things for no reason. Designed for the level of intelligence of a child.
    "slave working conditions in concentration camps": Ukrainian civilians are being forcibly deported by the thousands to camps in Russia.
    Can you prove it without referring to the words of Ukrainians?
    You seem to not have the slightest idea of what Russia is doing in their invasion
    I can see, read and hear what russians are doing and what ukrainians are doing as my native language is russian and i have friends from Ukraine from Harkiv, somewhere near Luhansk (from Donbass), Odessa, Kiev (and somewhere else i don't know, never asked). Only one of them feels really offended, but generally understands why this is happening. 176.77.33.121 (talk) 01:52, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree this page should be removed for the argument mentioned above. Russian nationalism / Russian imperialism are better concepts than this neologism. Perhaps a summary of this page - mentioning "Rashism" - can be integrated/merged into Putinism. Mrtno (talk) 09:02, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Proposal

I think we might want to merge all of these articles as they seem like redundant articles on the same political ideology

At the very least we should organize it better, perhaps with a template like Template:Nazism sidebar

These are more different perspectives on the same ideology than articles on different ideologies MaitreyaVaruna (changing name to Immanuelle) please tag me (talk) 17:09, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at these pages, none of them says that "X [for example, Putinism] is ideology of Putin". Yes, some kind of an ideology is a part of these subjects. In addition, Putin is not an ideologist. Someone like Dugin might be. My very best wishes (talk) 14:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rashism Putinism Merge

I propose merging Rashism and Putinism as both seem to be the same ideology. Putinism is just more focused on the ideology pre-2022 and Rashism 2022-present MaitreyaVaruna (changing name to Immainuelle) please tag me (talk) 19:36, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any scholarly sources using the word "Rashism" at all? Do we truly need this article? Alaexis¿question? 19:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here is one most obvious thing. That assertion about fascist transformation (initially named as "ruscism") appeared already during First Chechen war, i.e. under Yeltsin administration. This can not be attributed exclusively to Putin. My very best wishes (talk) 20:28, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In this case I support a change of the title. It comes off as more of an ideology than a societal transformation MaitreyaVaruna (changing name to Immanuelle) please tag me (talk) 20:25, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh no, fascism is not just an ideology, but also a societal transformation. My very best wishes (talk) 20:37, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The proposed new title would likely fail WP:NPOV. Some people would disagree with the characterisation in the proposed title. Alaexis¿question? 19:51, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that was a legit account. @IgorTurzh:? My very best wishes (talk) 00:16, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes hey, everything is okay. it was a mistake. No one is blocked or suspected as a sockpuppet. IgorTurzh (talk) 19:12, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support some merge: this article would be unlikely to survive an AfD given how weak the sourcing is for the term 'Rashism'. — Charles Stewart (talk) 14:03, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. What would be a justification for such merger? Which RS say that Putinism and Rashism (modern-day alleged fascist nature of Russia) is the same subject? Academic sources, such as this, say they are different. And again, this page is not about the word, but about the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 16:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The sources, at least the ones in the article, do not constitute significant coverage of the concept and therefore WP:GNG are not satisfied. The scope of the article is unclear - is it an article about a unique ideology? Or is it about the transformation of Russia in the last 20 years as User:My very best wishes said earlier? Alaexis¿question? 17:36, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If the latter, then this pages should be moved/renamed to Fascist transformation of Russia, which is a descriptive title. But there are no RS saying that Rashism and Putinism are exactly same subject. Quite the opposite: [42]. According to nominator, "both seem to be the same ideology". Seem to whom? This is WP:OR. Not mentioning that none of these subjects is about an ideology. My very best wishes (talk) 20:04, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But here is my suggestion. Please make an additional subsection on page Putinism (in this section [43]) that describes it as a variety of fascism, along with several other alternative interpretations of "Putinism". Then, the suggestion to merge will be a lot more credible, although one could still argue that such interpretation deserves a separate sub-page. My very best wishes (talk) 02:22, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Why combine an article about Putinism, in the center of which there is a cult of the personal president of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Putin, with an article on an ideology mentioned before Vladimir Putin's rule?[44] The concepts of rashism and putunism are different. While Putinism is based on the personality of Vladimir Putin as leader, rashism is based on the ideas of the "Russian world concept" - the "special mission of Russians", including a strong cult of personality (only in this respect rashism is related to putinism), militarism, totalitarianism, Russian imperialism and the idea of mobilization of nation and state against Western enemies, the idea of constant war and domination (Eurasianism). —Uliana245 Uliana245. 21:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. While there is some overlap Rashism [d]/Ruscism(/Russism) and Putinism are different topics. The first is about a broader concept or ideology of the "modern" form of fascism that has emerged in Russia over the past decades, the second term is specifically about the political system under Putin's leadership. I would have prefered if this article, which was formerly named "Russian fascism (ideology)", would not have been renamed to "Rashism", but I learned from those discussions that the former descriptive title was felt to be too ambiguous, so I'm okay with the name change. It is possible that over time historians and journalists will find another name for the concept, or that we may come up with a better descriptive title, but lumping the topic together with Putinism does not seem to be a good idea as this would cause readers to assume that they are synonyms for the same thing. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 09:02, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. While publicating the article in Slovenian wikipedia I carefully read the sourses in all languages: Ukrainian, Russian, English, and that is clear, that Rashism exists much longer than just Putin/Putinism and Rashism is immanent in Russia's history. It's really rooted in the Russian culture, Russian orthodoxy and political system. It's a fare broader phenomenon, than it may look from the first view. Keep it Rashism and expand the article. Ranná hviezda (talk) 16:37, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose After unsuccessful AfD process, the article was redirected/softdeleted, then restored and right now it is being discussed to merge with another page. I see here clear WP:GAME. The consensus was not to delete. So I ask to leave the article alone for some time. Why I'm against merging? Because, Putinism is the charachteristic of Putin's last decade, while Rashism/Russian Fascism is more about philosophy and the worldview of Russian statesman, elites and politicians. Putin will die some day, but Rashism will not disappear. That's the point and that's the difference between Putinism and Rashism. --IgorTurzh (talk) 19:21, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
TNT-level difficulties with the article were raised in that AfD and not seriously disputed. The lack of consensus in the AfD was just that - people did not agree on a particular course of action - but the content of the AfD provides strong justification for doing something about this article. — Charles Stewart (talk) 08:39, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • We should keep both articles I think that although the ideologies seem similar on the surface, they’re still separate. Rashism evolved from putinism, but it’s not the same. Putinism was mostly about the internal economy, policies and politics. The impact of rashism on the other hand is very much international and it comes from russians actually believing in the fake reality created by russian media. Basically we received rashism by letting putinism live and prosper. Stepio (talk) 07:31, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I think Rashism is an already well known word that is widely used in the world, and especially in post USSR countries. It's no doubt that it is an existing term that should definitely be on Wikipedia. It's a new phenomenon that describes ideology of Russia. It's not Putinism at all because it's clear that Putin is only one of many and his lastname can't describe the entire ideology of millions. Ihor-lav (talk) 08:32, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Could Russian nationalism#Extremist nationalism be an alternate merge target ? — Charles Stewart (talk) 08:39, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think Russian fascism and Russian nationalism are different terms, I would leave them separated. Ihor-lav (talk) 08:54, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose It may take longer than Putin itself not changing any better. --Олюсь (talk) 09:22, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I oppose the merging as it will conceal the true identity of the phenomenon. Putinism is a purely mental construct, which has no ground roots to the real world. It describes something that do not actually exist, at least in terms of mass ideology. Rashism, however, has a solid ideological basis and is described perfectly as a russian fascism. 93.175.234.56 (talk) 09:24, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I agree that these two concepts are different - Putinism is being rooted in the personality of Putin, while Rashism is touching the Russian nation as a whole. Besides this, I see that the term Rashism is used much more frequently than Putinism[1] after 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Internetyev (talk) 10:16, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Putinism is more of a governmental structure and a personality cult, while Rashism is a form of fascisms with some differences. A person can be a putinist while not being a rashist and vice versa. Rashism has accent on national superiority and incline for world domination with US and NATO as a main enemies, while putinism doesn't. Anton.argon (talk) 10:25, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I concur with the previous comment. Putinism is a type of governance associated with President Putin. Despite Putin's role in fostering it, Rashism is an ideology of extreme messianic nationalism which exists beyond and independent of Putin's clique and will most likely survive them. --KoberTalk 13:03, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Rashism is Russian ideology that is independent of Putinism and was mentioned by Dudaev as early as 1995. Kyrylkov (talk) 21:12, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Putinism is limited to Putin's regime, while Rashism encompasses the entirety of Russian ideology. Hatteras (talk) 23:32, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I noticed an editor involved here who was initially indef blocked for sockpuppetry and then unblocked has engaged in canvassing here by getting editors from Ukrainian wiki here. And I already noticed the sudden comments by Russian IPs. Sorry but this whole page smells of sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry/canvassing etc. Mellk (talk) 09:40, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I regret to inform you that you are wrong. I wasn't blocked and unblocked, I was blocked by mistake. second, I didnt' ask anyone, I just informed on 6 April the community that such page exists. You can track that no-one edited on 6 April from Ukrainian IP's or Ukrainian wikipedians. You may wonder, why so many people are now editing and commenting? The reason is that media started talking about this page, including Telegram channels, and ven Nevzorov posted it. Please, don't put everything together into onw bowl. IgorTurzh (talk) 11:42, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am not accusing you of socking, I just noticed that you were initially blocked for suspected sockpuppetry but were unblocked per WP:AGF and CU noted that socking was possibility but not clear enough for block. OK, I would also like to AGF. I just noticed inactive editors appearing here and other new accounts. I just think that your comments on the Ukrainian wiki talk page since then has attracted such editors. I also noticed here yesterday a number of Russian IPs appear all of a sudden, so it is something that should be considered and a need to be careful. Mellk (talk) 13:16, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mellk to be frank, my 6 April comment on UA wiki didn't make any difference. It's all because of mass media which made the article viral: both Ukrainian and Russians. Thanks for cooperation and attention. IgorTurzh (talk) 14:46, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Careful with red link accounts. Most seem to be SPAs. Similar things happened during the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war, a lot of SPAs and meatpuppets spawned. Beshogur (talk) 13:01, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Rashism is a neologism, a journalist invention created after the war in Ukraine. No scholarly work justifies an independent term. A lot of the references given does not even mention Rashism. Expressions such as "Russian nationalism" or "Russian imperialism" are better options. The argument developed on this page looks quite ad hoc and biased, and it would be better to mention this term in an article about Putinism. Thank you for your attention! Mrtno (talk) 08:56, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It was not created after the war in Ukraine. It was first mentioned by Dudaev in 1995. Well before ANY wars in Ukraine. Kyrylkov (talk) 16:16, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC,%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC

Offsite canvassing

This Wikipedia article has been linked from the Reddit subreddit /r/Europe [45], which is likely where a lot of these SPA accounts who are not familiar with WIkipedia policy are coming from. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:03, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why was Russian version of Rashizm deleted in the recent 24 hours? And 2 times!

If the reason is some unwanted people from the Russian government, I want this page to be locked or put in enhanced audit mode KastenTop (talk) 05:15, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rashism is not a real term

It is difficult to understand the point of this article as all this information can be described in the article about Russian invasion as a separate section (with the title like "Transformation of Russia to the fascist state during the invasion). Anyways, the word "Rashism" is not used anywhere except Ukrainian propagandist media. If this article is to stay, it should describe "Rashism" as a Ukrainian perception of Russian ideology, and not as an objective real process. Lolipopm1995 (talk) 07:41, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's a new phenomenon of 21 century that describes ideology of Russia. Ihor-lav (talk) 08:50, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no ideology in Russia. 176.77.56.106 (talk) 15:47, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Even if it is, nobody outside Ukraine uses the term "Rashism" to describe this ideology. Modern Russian imperialist views (like Dugin's) are often described simply as "Russian nationalism". Lolipopm1995 (talk) 09:48, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The whole of this article so much against "Wikipedia is not a dictionary", against neutrality, against Wikipedia being not a place for original research and so on. Very problematic. It may be a good article on how the word is used in hate speech and what are the ideas, the presuppositions behind it, but as it is now, it's weird. Amikeco (talk) 11:59, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Rashism" doesn't exist as a real thing (ideology, process, phenomena, you name it) with some definitive characteristics. This term is used only by Ukrainian media and officials to describe something really ambiguous. That's why the majority of the article is just discussion of various Russian nationalist with no connection to something called "Rashism". I suggest deleting this article, merging it with existing articles for Russian World, Russian Nationalism, Putinism, etc., or rewriting it with a title like "Ideological foundations of modern Russian state." Lolipopm1995 (talk) 17:20, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The New York Times considers it to be a real concept worth writing about and focusing on - see [46]. That's certainly notable enough for Wikipedia.
What is the difference between NYT and twitter accounts of ukraianian politicians? Just more words? Apparently this article was written only to be referenced from Wikipedia. 176.77.33.121 (talk) 01:59, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What is the difference between NYT and twitter accounts of ukraianian politicians?
WP:RS. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 05:10, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Article about the same. Ukrainians have come up with a word that shows their ignorance and their desire to offend Russia and Russians. This does not mean that it exists in reality. That is why we are talking about it here - because no one had ever heard of it until the Ukrainians added this article to Wikipedia. The only point of this article is to spread it.
The source must prove that in Russia fascism is at the state level, and not that the Ukrainians came up with this word. There is no doubt that the Ukrainians came up with this. Why should the insult that the Ukrainians come up with be on Wikipedia? 176.77.62.52 (talk) 12:42, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
According to the article, the concept and term were invented in 1995 by a Chechen Jason C.K. (talk) 01:13, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When I was little and stupid, I also made up words. Let's add them to wikipedia, shall we? Wikipedia is not a dictionary of all the stupid words that someone once came up with.
Rashizm consists of two words "Russia" + "Fascism" - using it you say that in Russia there is fascism at the state level. Therefore, either there is evidence that fascism is supported in Russia at the state level, or you are a liar and a provocateur, because you hang labels to insult Russia.
Truth does not depend on the number of people repeating stupid things. 176.77.35.142 (talk) 02:02, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The "notability" of the term is discussed elsewhere on this Talk page. I suggest you read that discussion, and participate if you are so inclined. It's been established already that it satisfied Wikipedia's "notability", so, it is already accepted as a "real word" for Wikipedia's purpose. A random word you invented would not satisfy Wikipedia's "notability"
Having satisfied "notability", if you wish to discuss the origins of the term, you can check the Talk page to see if anyone's brought it up, or bring it up yourself. You'll also have to read about the origins of the term already, since you apparently dispute the origin.
And yes, it's widely accepted that Putin and his government is fascist, but if you wish to debate that, that conversation, along with some scholarly resources related to it, are already elsewhere on this Talk page. I suggest you read that discussion, and participate if you are so inclined. Jason C.K. (talk) 02:19, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Widely accepted" like Obama is married to a man so he's gay, right?
You are taking the discussion in a different direction. You claim whether a word is worthy of a dictionary because NYT wrote about it. But Wikipedia is not a dictionary.
This thread (read above) discusses "Rashism is not a real term" it is "Ukrainian perception" of reality. I argue that these are the fantasies of some people, including some kind of "Widely accepted" fascism in Russia. Just like Assad's "well-documented" crimes in Syria and weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
This article is pure hate propaganda against Russia. 176.77.35.142 (talk) 03:56, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the point of some of the facts and non-facts you are bringing up. Obama is married to a woman. Yes many scholars consider Putin and his regime to be fascist. Yes Assad has committed many crimes. No there were no WMDs in Iraq. What is the point of your statements?
I made no claims about why the word is notable for Wikipedia. Merely that the discussion is elsewhere in this Talk. Go talk to them about that if you care
Rashism is not a Ukrainian perception, since many non-Ukrainians perceive reality in the same way. The concept didn't even originate from Ukrainians. Jason C.K. (talk) 04:38, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
>>> I don't see the point of some of the facts and non-facts you are bringing up. Obama is married to a woman.
Try googling "obama married transgender" - that's what you call an "opinion".
>>> scholars consider Putin
It is not a matter of "faith" or "opinion". You offer to provide links or quotes. But quotes do not describe complex entities. The only thing that can be given is a link to history courses. Without knowledge, it is impossible to discuss difficult things, just as it is impossible to discuss the shades of the colors of the rainbow with the blind.
To begin with, people confuse nazism and fascism. Fascism - derived from Fasces - the word itself has no meaning, it's just a symbol. In essence, fascism is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism, it was discredited due to its connection with the Nazis.
Someone says there is fascism in Russia (or rather, Nazism) is at an early stage. Those who claim this know what Nazism was like when the Nazis came to power?
The Nazis passed discriminatory laws against the Jews. They could be fired from their jobs without punishment. Signs were hung on their stores to not buy anything here, because this is a Jewish store. They were deprived of money. They were deprived of their property. Then they were forbidden to walk on sidewalks together with normal citizens. Then they were placed in concentration camps. And the population approved this, because they considered it normal.
Have you seen something like this in Russia:
- the bank refused to serve you because you are Italian
- americans are woken up at 5 am before the competition for doping tests - because they always lie
- britons banned from competition because they didn't renounce their country
- property was taken away from German businessmen because they are Germans
- banned books by French writers because they are French
Unthinkable! In Russia, this is impossible. But it happens in the West - live. Including the fact that it is accepted by society and considered normal.
Do you want to understand what Nazism looked like? Look in the mirror! Read the newspapers of the 30s of the last century - you will not find a difference with modern ones. Look at what the nazis propaganda of those years looked like. Spoiler: Jews with a Bolshevik star - that is, communists - all Russian, it was a European unifying idea - to fight the Bolsheviks. History repeats itself, you don't learn anything.
Get educated, do not copy quotes from stupid journalists with a degree in gender linguistics. 176.77.35.142 (talk) 05:49, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia has long turned into a collection of opinions of some biased pro-Western bloggers who do not meet the principles of logic, science, or even common sense. Only irresponsible statements. Only links to authorities someone wrote something somewhere. If this is the winner of all awards from the Intergalactic Institute of Insects and Democracy, receiving grants from London, then this is worthy of a special page and golden letters.
Where are the facts? Where is the proof? Where is the value of this word for mankind? 176.77.35.142 (talk) 04:05, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2022 (2)

The start year of of Russo-Ukrainian war is 2022, not 2014. Verygoldfish (talk) 07:41, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: not true. the Russo-Ukrainian War has been going on since 2014 in Crimea and Donbas. the invasion into the rest of Ukraine started in 2022. 💜  melecie  talk - 07:49, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a hate speech.

Probably someone doesn't know, but this slang "term" comes from the derogatory name of the country: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC


The article looks like a part of propaganda campaign for Ukrainian media. 46.216.112.81 (talk) 08:17, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a Talk page of an article in English, linking to the fact that "Раша" in Russian language could be perceived as derogatory is not relevant here, since "Russia" is by no means is a derogatory term in English. Even if it was, something being derogatory is not a reason to exclude such content from Wikipedia, if it is otherwise notable of course. 212.51.138.42 (talk) 09:44, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2022

The "Z" photo does not contain tank but armored tracked vehicle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT-LB Felix.frenkel (talk) 11:40, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:56, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Possible source

I see Timothy Snyder has posted an article in the New York Times on the term. Could this be a possible source? As a well known scholar on totalitarianism, his take should be considered relevant I think. Link: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/magazine/ruscism-ukraine-russia-war.html?smid=tw-share Euor (talk) 15:13, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I also saw Zelensky mention the term in a press conference. Not sure where it would fit into the article, but perhaps could be used to show the prevalence of the term in Ukrainian society. Euor (talk) 00:37, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And thirdly, the official twitter account of Ukraine just posted a video on “Ruscism” and what they see as it’s tenets and history: https://twitter.com/ukraine/status/1518217114766696449?s=21&t=aqS7aUZqU_VYuGstZwtp0w Euor (talk) 13:49, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think article by Snyder can be used. As about post on Twitter, no. If this is an official position by Ukrainian government (including views by Zelensky), that should be included, but needs to be better sourced. My very best wishes (talk) 20:44, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2022

The more appropriate English spelling for this phenomenon may be "Ruscism" as opposed to "Rashism," as it would evoke more pronouncedly two major meanings encapsulated in the term: "Russian" and "Fascism." 2603:7000:7F40:6A00:E1AE:93FF:3AC0:509B (talk) 02:32, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you rename it, you will lose the original meaning that Ukrainians put into this term. They are the ones who invented it and use it. Because of hatred, they distort the name of Putin (Putler or similar) and other political figures, including the name of the country instead of Russia saying Rasha - this is how they humiliate Russia (they think so). The whole point of this is an insult to Russia. This article serves the same purpose. 03:30, 26 April 2022 (UTC) 176.77.33.121 (talk) 03:30, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
According to the article, the concept and term was invented by a Chechen in 1995, so your entire comment is falsified Jason C.K. (talk) 01:10, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: page move requests should be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 April 2022

Suggest the line that reads, "the Ukrainian-claimed downing of a Boeing 777 near Donetsk on 17" be edited to state, "the Russian downing of a Boeing 777 near Donetsk on 17"

RATIONALE: The current text reads as though the Ukrainians claimed they downed the aircraft. The results of international investigations indicate the Russians were responsible for the aircraft's destruction. 205.153.92.2 (talk) 00:37, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Accusing someone of a crime presupposes an "independent" investigation and the opportunity for the accused to "defend himself." Not the so-called "international" investigation of "interested" parties in a secret mode, who pass judgment on a third party not recognizing the right of these investigators to act as judges.
There are investigations claiming that the Ukrainians shot down the plane (most likely) and the US is covering up their crimes, since the evidence they claim they have, such as satellite images, has not yet been released.
"Ukrainians claim this, Ukrainians claim that.". Like almost everything that comes from Ukrainians is based on statements not facts. 176.77.35.142 (talk) 02:26, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:46, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ruscism / Russism

I don't think people that are not familiar with Russian language here realize that русизм, can be both written in Latin as Ruscism and Russism. And trying to have Dzhokhar Dudayev use a "different" term Russism / Ruscism is some sort of manipulation with a hidden agenda. It's a term that was widely used during the Chechen wars and made popular among many people in the former Soviet Union back in 90s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landkomtur (talk • contribs) 15:19, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure that there is no hidden agenda involved here. We just need to be extra careful to get the history and "development" of the ideology and the terms straight and to not to mix up things just because they sound or look similar.
Instead of just making statements please search for reliable sources (WP:RS), which can support the statements.
Dudayev used "Русизм[е]" in 1995, which, at the time was translated as "Russism" (and not as "Ruscism") by those reliable Western sources included in the article so far. If you think it was translated as "Ruscism" even back then, then please provide contemporary sources for this.
To the best of my knowledge, "Рашизм" can be transliterated as both "Ruscism" and "Rashism", depending on how much of the pun you want to preserve in the English term. We still need to trace back the first usage of the term "Рашизм" as well as of the terms "Ruscism" and "Rashism". Most probably, we won't be able to find the exact origin, but we should be able to nail it down at least to specific years.
And finally: Our English article on the Russian far-right ideologist and defacto-fascist Aleksandr Ivanov-Sukharevsky claims that he called his ideology "Russism" as well, but does not currently mention the actual Cyrillic term he used (so we don't know if it was "Русизм" as well) nor does the article provide a publication date or reliable source for this. This needs to be better sourced as well. Is Ivanov-Sukharevsky's "Russism" the same ideology Dudayev referred to as "Русизм" or yet another weird idea? I do not know the answer, but we need to find out by searching for and studying reliable sources, and depending on the outcome we may crosslink the two uses of "Russism" or may need to deliberately disambiguate them.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 16:18, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • These are two different spellings of the same Russian word, Русизм (that is what appears in Russian text referenced to Dudayev). I think that correct/preferred English spelling of the word in this meaning is "ruscism" as appears here [47], [48], [49]. "Russism" also appears with the same meaning [50], [51]. Probably both spellings should be mentioned in the page. Note that Russianism is something different. My very best wishes (talk) 02:09, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, all these sources are either dated from 2022 (or unreliable sources like wikis), therefore they cannot be used to determine if Русизм was originally translated as Ruscism as well, or only as Russism. Only reliable primary or secondary sources before 2008 (or 2014) will help us to find out. (It is possible that translating Русизм as Russism was suboptimal, but if that is what is used in the old English sources, we should, for historical correctness, keep it that way at least in the Dudayev section.)
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 14:12, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just saw that if you read the latest NY Times source, you will find that this term is confined the Ukrainian usage. I have specified on the lead by adding 2 scholarly sources that this is a Ukrainian term. AnM2002 (talk) 08:55, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: Can you explain your partial revert? Just because English and Russian sources have provided it coverage, doesn't mean that it becomes globally recognized term. It is still confined to pro-Ukrainian actors, and NY Times and the two scholarly sources I provided are very clear about it. AnM2002 (talk) 17:00, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rashism

I suggest not using the term Rashism. First of all, it is a generic word with the name of a nation. Secondly, this phenomenon is not unique to Russia. What would it look like now if the category of fascism were associated with a nation? I would suggest, out of respect for the Ukrainian people, to use the category Khuylism to define this phenomenon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Panugaris (talk • contribs) 09:55, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please see our policy WP:TITLE for how we determine titles. "Khuylism" isn't used by anyone, therefore it cannot be used.
In general, I think, we should focus more on contents rather than the title. The title will have to be adjusted with what turns out to be used to name the ideology by scientific authors, historians and journalists in a couple of years. It may be rashism, or ruscism, or something else. Until then, we should consider the title as a placeholder and focus on improving the prose.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 14:22, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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