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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dongdongdog (talk | contribs) at 06:55, 19 April 2007 (→‎[[Michael Sneed]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Michael Sneed

Michael Sneed (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Article is not a bio of columnist Michael Sneed, but is being used as a forum for constant revert wars regarding her coverage of the Virginia Tech massacre; Delete --Mhking 02:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. To state that the event being not "notable" certainly contradicts the fact the global impact it had achieved. I find it hard to understand people still using not notable to argue for erasing this article completely. And Jimmi's charged description of all keep votes as rubbish is even harder to comprehend. Ww2007april 05:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well though i still stand by the comment, in my defence, at the time, nearly all the keep comments said things along the lines off "She is a bad reporter and people need to know this". Of course even with the number of comments now claiming that this article is notable, i have to disagree. The event as a whole caused the problem, and i am sure some reporter claiming what she did would have upset no one if he hadnt murdered a load of people. Events have numerous factors, let us mention the small ones like this in the main article and not bloat wikipedia with nonsense. It is not one comment per article on wikipedia! --Jimmi Hugh 05:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Keep comments, no matter how "rubbish" they are as you feel, exactly reflect people's strong opinions toward the article and its subject, which in turn prove this article's notability. Even your own STRONG opinion in favor of deleting this article also shows it can stir up different views, and thus, the article is notable and worth being kept here.Dongdongdog 05:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now that is just bull.. on that basis, we could never delete an article from wikipedia, because if even one was argued it would be classes as notable... get a back bone! --Jimmi Hugh 06:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It becomes very tiring to show those who refuse to see the obvious: an news event happened, spreads in major news networks on prime time over and over again, the Foreign Ministry of one certain country decided that this is notable enough to issue a statement. And however it is still not "notable". Besides, shouting and calling people names does not strengthen your arguements Ww2007april 06:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have never in my life shouted or called people names. There is no need for such vulgar behaviour. And to put things in perspecitive, a huge number of people see my way, a huge number see your way. And we all feel that it is tiring trying to convince the opposite of what we think is right. We may never succeed. But i will continue to try and make you see my way as logn as can in order to enlighten you, as i am sure you will try to enlighten me. Notability on wikipedia is not based on statements issued by goverments... once again wikipedia would be bloated if this were so. The Notability we are arguing here is whether or not this is notable enough to warrant an entire article. Given that policy dictates people do something notable, this article fails. It also only makes one point which could easily be intergrated into the main article on the massacre. --Jimmi Hugh 06:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good, from what I am seeing here, the original "totally not notable" has evolved into "not notable enough". Let put this aside for now, for it will take time for one to travel from one extreme into some sort of middle ground. And talking about calling names, the "Bull" and the "..." right after that does not look like a good word to me, or you may argue the innocence of a certain kind of animal, but come on, we are all adults here.Ww2007april 06:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmmm there is a slight difference between defining a comment as bull and name calling... but never mind. I aplogize if you got the impression i thought that Michael Sneed should be purged from wikipedia... quite the opposite i am sure she could fill her own section on the main topic... this is where i have always tried to stand on the subject. I just definetly don' think we follow policy by giving her a whole topic. --Jimmi Hugh 06:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • And, I assume you also stand by your "rubbish" comment as well? Ww2007april 06:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Of course... all keep articles at the time i made the comment were in my opinion "rubbish" and not worthy of response. Luckily the conversation has stirred up a bit... despite no one giving a reason why an article about a woman who still appaears to only have this one area of notability should be kept --Jimmi Hugh 06:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Very well then. Now could my esteemed friend Jimmi do me this one courtesy by letting me know: are you still standing by your "rubbish" statement as we speak right now? Ww2007april 06:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • No... that would be like America standing by its comment that it wishes to split from england and become a nation in it's own right. Oh yes, it already did that, times have changed. Obviously our opinions differ, but i think it is obvious people are attepting to make arguments as to why this article is notable. Of course you are failing to make any comment that does not simply warrant this article for a merge into the main event. --Jimmi Hugh 06:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am very pleased to see all descriptive bulls plus their trailing dots and "rubbish" being tossed away (assumed this one mission accomplished?), and people simmered down. This is practically the only way people can talk to each other -- which means one speaking, one listening, and vise versa. A clear, and two way conversation is very hard to achieve, even in this age of net. The difficulty of maintaining a somewhat noise free channel is almost essential for people to understand each other -- and this is one reason that I am holding news events and whatever happened about far reaching media "notable". A person can efficiently maintain his or her acquantance circle up to no more than 200 personally, for the rest of his or her information need, he has rely on the good faith of the mass media, and when the media fails, it is "notable".Ww2007april 06:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. My suggestion is merging it with "Michael Sneed Rumor" article, which was created with a more proper name, and link it to Virginia Tech Mass Shooting article. The article records how the false media reporting was generated and spread and the huge influence it had on innocent people. It also makes a good subject for future sociological study. --Tinbbs 05:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: This article describes a news report event in the Virginia Tech Massacre media coverage. The report was very widely referenced on-line and off-line both in the US and overseas, and also caused some controversy. It played a very important role in the first few hours on the massacre's news coverage about finding the correct killer. This wikipedia article covers the origin and development of this controversial report as well as people's response to it. It lists all the sources accurately and completely. So it deserves to be saved in wikipedia for record-keeping's sake.Dongdongdog 06:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • KeepThe event is significant enough to warrant a place in Wikipedia. The massacre is terrible. But it doesn't mean anything related to it but less significant should be overshadowed by it. Put an article here doesn't affect the main entry on the massacre. It only gives people more opportunities to fully grasp this tragedy. It's part of the important history.
  • With all the details, this article is too long to be put in the main article. People need to look at the big picture. This tragic event does not include the mass shooting itself only but also the responses of the society, including general public, news media, and authorities, and the influence they have on the people and the society. This article focuses on one aspect of the event and definitely deserves a separate entry. --Tinbbs 05:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Article is not a bio of columnist Michael Sneed, but is being used as a forum for constant revert wars regarding her coverage of the Virginia Tech massacre; --Mhking 02:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • MergeI agree this article should be merged into Michael Sneed Rumor
  • Had it been a more prominent issue, and she been a more prominent figure, I would have known :) Seriously, though, that has nothing to do with anything though. └Jared┘┌talk┐  03:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am wondering how wiki admins judge if it is notable enough. Like I pointed out in the discussion page of "Michael Sneed", it is a big issue for certain groups of people while being irrelevant to others. --Tinbbs 05:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually it is based on unbiased notability. For example a Christian admin would think Jewish points of view were notable. But no one in there right mind would think something some kids made up in the playground was notable, or that one news paper article that changed nothing in the world warranted notability --Jimmi Hugh 05:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. If we had an article on every journalist who provided unsupported suppositions later proven false, the servers would crash. Every notable incident has its rumours started by journalists - every one. Just because this is recent doesn't mean that this incredibly, incredibly minor rumour or its originator is notable. --Charlene 02:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please nominate a similar event not recorded in wikipedia. Thanks. Zhangwl03:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think the reason for this article is not because the false report but it's global impact and notability, especially in Chinese communities. Therefore, keeping it does not mean we need "article on every journalist who provided unsupported suppositions". Sweeper77 03:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • It had no impact... the murders had an impact, and this article was a single factor within that. Therefore this deserves nothing more than a passing comment in the main article. If you bring attention to it then you should bring attention to all journlalists who publish unsupported claims. --Jimmi Hugh 05:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge. This article and Michael Sneed's rumor contain the similar content. It describes a historical event rather than a bio, so suggest to merge this one into that one. Also the title might need to be changed to conform to wiki rules. Zhangwl03:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As a prominent columnist in the Chicago Sun-Times (circulation 368,062), I'd say Michael Sneed would have warranted an article without the recent hubbub. However, it might be best to start with a fresh slate. Zagalejo 03:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This article deserves its place in this free encyclopedia. Even if we have an article for every bad journalist, so what - if the servers cannot handle the traffic, wikipedia should not be in this business and does not deserve a place on the internet. The news business is a serious business, and people deserve to know who's creating false news just to gain publicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Duming153 (talk • contribs) This template must be substituted.
  • Keep. If this event is not notable, I don't know what notable is. The false claim by this journalist has been cited all around the world and by all the networks, and it happened with the VT massacre. It definitely deserves its place in wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgeww (talk • contribs) This template must be substituted.
  • ...The article Virginia Tech massacre serves this purpose nicely. I am not contesting the idea of the rumor, but I am just saying that its notability comes exclusively from its connections with the massacre. Thus, it should not get its own page, but be merged back into VA Tech mass. └Jared┘┌talk┐  03:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This article reflects a serious incident related to the recent VT tragedy, and the columnist and her product by itself receives the global attention and even the Chinese government had to react to it. This is certainly notable enough. This article could be gradually expand to be a bio of this columnist, considering she is globally well-known now, even so the current content in the article should also be an important part of the bio since it is this incident that made her so famous for the first time.--atou 03:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This article contains factual content relevant to Virginia Tech Massacre. It's notable enough because almost all Chinese media has cited the report in their headlines and it has caused great concerns in both mainland China and the overseas Chinese communities. However, the format of the article should be revised to comply with a biograhical entry or it should be moved under different category with different title.Sweeper77 03:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete without prejudice to re-creation with an article about Sneed's entire biography, not this one incident. All this incident amounted to was "a newspaper columnist printed something that later turned out to be incorrect" -- something that happens every day. Her comment was not even libelous since she didn't identify the person she had in mind. --Metropolitan90 03:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • First, it's not about "a newspaper columnist printed something that later turned out to be incorrect", it's about the false report's impact. Second, if it's not a biography then revised it to a biography, why delete it? Sweeper77 03:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • The false report had no "impact". No one will remember it in 20 years, because it means nothing. I personally think even the massacre itself should have had a passing comment, but given peoples need to over emphasize we have to put our foot down somewhere. What next? Are we going to have two pages dedicated to the kid who had a bad feeling about going to school that day? --Jimmi Hugh 03:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • You don't remember does not mean others don't. As mentioned in the article, the report went quickly into mainstream Chinese media and for an entire day (it was daytime in China) everyone was talking about how a F1 student had killed 32 Americans. And later the Chinese government had to step out to clarify the false report. You think nobody will remember it? Maybe you don't care because you are not a Chinese, but since when wiki becomes a US-based project? Sweeper77 03:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Completely non notable. I would also like to say i am disapointed that all the keep arguments are nonsensical rubbish. --Jimmi Hugh 03:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please refrain from verbal attack. Being notable or not is not determined by your judgment. If a large group of people have a strong feeling toward something, it is notable and worth being as an entry in Wikipedia.Dongdongdog 05:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was not a verbal attack. Simply an obvious note to help the admin who looks it over realise peoples keep comments have nothing todo with the situation and are not in the aid of wikipedia. It is as if the whole group believes they have to proof their morality by forcing us to keep this waste of space article knowing that they care not for people. --Jimmi Hugh 05:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I recommend:
    • (a)merge properly sourced info concerning her reporting and the reactions to it into appropriate sections of the main Virginia Tech massacre article itself, where it has relevance and can be given in the proper context. While it is valid to canvass media coverage and associated topics at the main article, having this specific incident documented separately like this -in either Ms. Sneed's biog (if kept) or some other separate article devoted to it- has the appearance, and not only the appearance, of consituting a POV/Content fork or even personal attack. Particularly so in the absence of any other view or information. Not all of the current material needs to be integrated into the main VT shootings article, only enough to document the sequence of events and the main reactions to the initial identification of the suspect.
    • (b)delete the separate fork, Michael Sneed's rumor, per reasons given in (a).
    • (c)weak keep for the Michael Sneed biog article itself, if the subject's claim to notability in her own right can be established, and only if it is made into a more balanced biographical entry covering more than just this one event. The material on her report definitely needs to be pared down significantly, and accompanied by other details of career etc. I've not looked very intensively but I'm presently unable to locate any other specific biographical or career history data sources; if such cannot readily be found then that would indicate to me that an article on Ms. Sneed may not be warranted in any case.--cjllw ʘ TALK 03:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete; Most of the sources here are just news articles based on Sneed's report, not about the effects of Sneed's report. The only article about the effects of Sneed's report is from James Fallows, but one journalist's comment is not enough to base an article upon. This article seems to exist as "retribution" for Sneed's report, the earlier 2 unsigned "keep" comments seem to confirm that, along with statements like Her story was widely discussed and deemed irresponsible in many overseas Chinese forums. The fact that Michael Sneed and Michael Sneed's rumor are nearly identical is also suspect. And what exactly is the effect of this incorrect story? Chinese people felt a little uncomfortable for a few hours ? Reality check: 32 people are dead - let's not use Wikipedia to make this Sneed issue bigger than it really is. Masaruemoto 04:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Keep There is no requirement in Wikipedia that an article on a news report should be about the "effect" of the report, otherwise, it's not worth being here. Dongdongdog 06:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment; Tell that to all the sockpuppets, I mean people, who want to keep this article because they say it is about the "effect" of the news report. And if this article isn't about the effect, but the actual news report itself, then it shouldn't be here either. This is an encyclopedia, not a news archive. Wikinews is for news. Masaruemoto 05:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This incident shows the unethical nature and lack of integraty of Ms. Sneed. As a reporter, the most important thing is to report facts, not making up stories. Once the reports turned out false, instead of giving an explanation and apologize, she erased all the traces and pretend nothing happened. We don't need this kind of character in the news business and the public deserves to know what kind of person and reporter she is. Burgen 04:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)burgen 12:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)Burgen 04:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wikipedia is not a place to make lists of dodgy reporters, if we did we would make comments on all reporters. Please learn what wikipedia is about before making comments on what should stay on wikipedia. She is just like all other reporters and you do more damage by trying to make a big deal out of it. --Jimmi Hugh 04:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The issue here is not about damaging someone or a "retribution", as Masaruemoto suggested above. It is about recording an incident that generated global effects, cited by innumerable news agencies and newspapers around the world, on the first day of this week. I do not know why this deserves a deletion. If you would like to see a balanced bio, you can certainly make it one. If you want to make it look like an article about an event, you can also work on it or merge it with the aforementioned "rumor" page. Although this does look like imbalanced now, I don't think we have to delete every imperfect or not balanced article on this wiki. We should work on it to make it better, or add a tag to point it out.--atou 04:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Its deletion has nothing todo with balance and perfection. THe article could be a featured one and it would still be deleted. What matters he is that the article is non-notable. It is a single fact from a larger case. Please try to argue within the scope of the article and not the major related event, it is for that very reason taht this should be put in the main event article. --Jimmi Hugh 04:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think you are making the distinction very subtle and difficult. How can we determine the notability of an event, if this event does look notable, but it is related to a bigger event? True, "a reporter making false report" is not a big deal, but I would argue that "33 people got killed" is not a big deal either if that happened in Iraq today and triggered by another bomb, at least nobody will care to write a wikipage on that. I would suggest the notability of an event should solely be decided upon its echo in the world and its media coverage. And this one, "the suspect is a Chinese" does receive substantial amount and thus is very notable.--atou 04:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I can not find any suitable item from the official reasons for deletion list, can you??? I think Masaruemoto, and those who said this page was just a retaliation -- all of you should ask why this journalist and this newspaper rushed like that to be the first reporter of the identity of the shooter even though it was clear in their mind that what they were gonna report had not been confirmed? Indeed, compared with the 32+1 lives lost, this short-lasting rumor does not seem to be that tragic. But, we are not spending all our time mourning, are we??? What is more significant for us is to figure out an effective way to prevent all the bad things from happening again-- this certainly includes falsified news reports and possible retaliations on Asian people, in addition to cruel mass shootings. Don't you agree? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.152.145.124 (talk)
    • I aplogise but i could not make out most of your nonsensical argument. Like all others you seem to think the deletion policy cares about whether or not the paper should have posted this issue. The content does not really matter, what matters is that as a single article the is non-notable. -Jimmi Hugh 04:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • If I may be perfectly frank and honest, no, I actually disagree with you, and I think with good reason: with apologies to the United States Postal Service and its employees for the usage of the term, Wikipedia is not here to figure out how to keep people from "going postal". We are an encyclopedia, not a psychoanalytical think tank or a research group. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 05:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Here is one link showing the adverse effects the falsified report from Michael Sneed: http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818566/posts?q=1&;page=56#56 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aapt (talk • contribs) This template must be substituted.
    • Holy freaking jesus.. i pray an administrator would delete this before i die... get this through your minds people... the only thing we are discussing is whether this article as a single topic is notable... no it is not, clearly it is nothing more than a sidenote in the main topic of the massacre. --Jimmi Hugh 04:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Jesus has nothing to do with this. Sneed has.
    • I apologize to Jimmy for not having made it clearer so that everyone even including you can understand. Here's my thought regarding the notability of this issue (sorry if it is still "nonsensical" to you): if this issue were not notable, Ms. Sneed and the Sun-times would not have done it.
      • Of course you have opened my eyes... well of i go to make an article about my breakfast. Because of course, if it was not notable, then i probably wouldn't have had breakfast this morning. --Jimmi Hugh 05:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • go ahead with your breakfast. I would like to read it.
          • Thankyou for this... at least now the admin who reads this will know to ignore your comments given you actually believe an article about my beeakfast is good use of wikipedia bandwidth and storage. --Jimmi Hugh 05:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • yeah, i would like to see you breakfast report being quoted by Foxnews and international media-- en, probably you would be an American Idol by then. Good luck
          • Please don't insult me with ideas of becoming an idol of that country... no thankyou. Also read my above comment it relates to you also, obviously your comments are meaningless to the conversation given you really don't care about the cleaning up of wikipedia. --Jimmi Hugh 05:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for the jokes. I would say that if Jimmi eats his breakfast, then its not notable enough. However if he reported on Chicago Sun-Times that he eats a Chinese (or got eaten by a Chinese), and made the 1.3 billion Chinese so unnerved, and is cited by every newspaper in every language tomorrow, then it is definitely notable, and I will write a wikipage about it. I promise.--atou 05:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ahh once again you miss the point. You see it would not unnerve the chinese unless there was a larger related topic. In that case the mention of my breakfast would appear on the larger topic, not on its own page. --Jimmi Hugh 05:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - For what it's worth, I think the ardent keep !votes we're seeing are more in light of the shooting on Monday, and a side effect of emotions running a little high. Can we please, please try and remember that, despite how horrible this was, we need to be objective here? Yes, it's horrible that 32 college students got killed because one went off the deep end, but we can't ignore all rules just because of that. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 05:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge and Redirect to either the incident itself or to the Chicago Sun-Times article - but I'm leaning towards inclusion for the Times. Yes, the reporter was a schmuck for doing this, but schmuckery doesn't necessarily make somebody notable - just makes 'em a schmuck. It's worth noting, but not by itself in a named article. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 05:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but with Title Changed. I suggest to change to the title to "Michael Sneed Incident"
  • Keep All these debates and replies show us how important and interesting this article is. And this is exactly why Wiki and all new medias will win the viewers over the traditional medias. --Jim
    • I think an article on goggiliwoggilydoodar would be interesting and so do a hundred+ people i know... that does not mean it deserves a place on wikipedia. Please read policy before posting people. --Jimmi Hugh 05:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but with Title Changed. I second this -- change title to "Michael Sneed Incident". I believe this is an important incident of fake news. This might get into textbook of journalism as a classic case. bluegene_ca 06:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • And on that day, when the world really has become as pathetic and needy as possible, and you all believe more in the rights of yourselfs than your countries... i promise i will take a gun to far more than 32 meaningless americans. --Jimmi Hugh 06:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • With all J.H.s over this page, I have to ask whether there is a conflict of interest involved. I believe once you made your point clear, you can move on, working on something important and constructive, such as, donate your time, money to support relatives of the 32 victims, to support a better safety system on campus. IMHO, you DO NOT have to jump up and down everywhere to make yourself visible. peace out bluegene_ca 06:24, 19 April 2007
        • In what way would me giving my money upto their familys by constructive? Do they suddenly not have money? This is exaclty the kind of attitude that is making me want to post more. You are all so PC now you actually beleive what yo uare saying. I continue to post when a comment makes a unique view point, and i am totally within my rights to question them and help the thinking process. The whole point of this is to improve wikipedia, and while people keep posting nonsensical arguments as to why the article should be kept, i hope to have the energy to discuss with them my own views. --Jimmi Hugh 06:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, unnotable minor incident. This entire article seriously violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight in dissecting every iota of change to the Sun-Times website without really underlining whether that's important. I've added a sourced paragraph to Chicago Sun-Times (after an anon kept adding a badly-formatted and unsourced bit about it), I really don't see why any more is necessary. Certainly a bio of Michael Sneed would violate WP:BLP if this were more than a tiny fraction of it. --Dhartung | Talk 06:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Really, a bad reporter is not worthy of his own article, esp. when it's almost a duplicate of the Michael Sneed Incident. I said that some of the relevant info from the Michael Sneed Incident should be included in the Virginia Tech Massacre, But that's it. 10 years from now this woman will not be very notable. Radio-x 06:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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