Talk:Bruce Fein

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With 175,000 Google hits, I am somewhat astonished to find that an article on Mr Fein does not already exist. --IslandGyrl 20:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, more here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2rqww-eOIs 70.245.79.20 04:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The following paragraph in the Bruce Fein article seem to violate Wikipedia guidelines:

I smiled with amusement when I read Bruce Fein’s article that appeared on June 8th on TamilNet. Just in case you don’t know who he is, he’s the media mercenary from Washington D.C., a former US Deputy Attorney General, who is paid an alleged $100,000 per month to campaign for an independent Tamil State in Sri Lanka. His retainer fees come from “Tamils for Justice,” which I and many others believe is a transparent front organization funded by LTTE. Mr. Fein, of course, says that it’s not, but it would be interesting to investigate where the money comes from that supports TFJ – as well as Mr. Fein’s website organization dedicated to the same cause called the “Bruce Fein Project.” The latter is a clever name, don’t you think? Sounds like something for science class or a 70’s rock band. What these two organizations promote, however, is far from benign. They plot and promote separation, death, and the destruction of a sovereign nation – yours!

First, there are usages of pronoun "I" and a usage of "you". According to the Wikipedia: Manual of Style, first and second-person pronouns are not to be used unless quoting text (and a few other exceptions).[1]

Second, the statement found in the third sentence which is

...which I and many others believe is a transparent front organization funded by LTTE.

seem to constitute weasel wording[2] and original research.[3]

Third, the overall tone of this paragraph is not encyclopedic, based partially on the possible violations of guidelines mentioned above, as well as irrellevent information (comparing the "Bruce Fein Project" to 70's rock bands), a rhetorical question by the author, and a lack of citation (for example the amount he is paid). Also, in the final sentence, the author is not clear about which "sovereign nation" is being referred to. This paragraph seems more like a blog entry or a forum entry and belongs at most on the Talk page (where it may be debated) than on the main article.

I will leave the editing of this paragraph to an experienced Wikipedia contributer (I'm still new and don't want to cause trouble).

At best, this paragraph is simply a mistake. At worst, this paragraph is an act of vandalism.[4]

--Zombiedroid (talk) 23:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• http://query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch?query=Bruce+Fein&n=20&prev=0&frow=10&page=2
• http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/politics/05gonzales.html?scp=1&sq=Bruce%20Fein&st=cse
• http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9904EFDB1230F93BA1575AC0A9639C8B63&scp=3&sq=Bruce%20Fein&st=cse
• http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE5D91338F933A25755C0A961948260
• http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE6DF1030F93BA15751C0A96E948260&scp=12&sq=Bruce%20Fein&st=cse
• http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7DC143CF930A25753C1A964958260&sec=&spon=&&scp=15&sq=Bruce%20Fein&st=cse
• http://thelichfieldgroup.com/principals/ (bio)
• http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Bruce%20Fein&page=1

Avruch ^T 19:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The recent edit war about the insertion of http://www.defence.lk/new.asp?fname=20080605_12 is being discussed at WT:SLR. — Sebastian 02:37, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is a good question to ask if the tamil issue is his career highlight to dedicate one third of the article. Tamil issue is addressed widely under separate wikipedia articles. This is just a duplication of same information. Obviously the other side of the story, that Fein is supporting legal services to an organization accused of being a front organization of LTTE, a terrorist organization identified by many countries in the world. Therefore, he is indirectly representing a terrorist organization that is considered to be the pioneer in suicide bombing.[5] Recently he filed a legal case against two Sri Lankan government officials and the same document appeals against LTTE's listing as a terrorist organization in US. Further, he has gotten in to implications with FBI regarding tamils for justice involvement with LTTE. Is 3-month $90,000 assignment of Tamils for justice is his career highlight? [6]

the section on tamils for justice is quite long. Fein has done other things in his life than this, and the article should reflect that. Either the other sections should be expanded, or this section should be shortened. Jasy jatere (talk) 22:37, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The whole thing is a minor part of his career, and it seems to be a magnet for controversy and edit warring. The agita is not worth including this relatively new and minor detail in what is intended to be a biography. Avruch ^T 18:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it has become a magnet. I understand that your removal is an act of desperation, but it's not the only way to solve it, and I don't think it's the best way. I think, if a fact garners attention, it is usually better to cover it. A better solution is to stick with tried and proven policies. First and foremost, we need to stay on WP:TOPIC. I think that the section headline "Genocide of Tamil ethnic group in Sri Lanka" invited additions of off-topic text, which has to be removed. I would like us to agree on a better headline, especially since the connection of that headline with Mr Fein is not immediately apparent from looking at the TOC. — Sebastian 20:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We also need a reliable source for the statement "has been hired" - or we need to qualify it, as described at WP:SLR#QS. — Sebastian 20:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't garner attention because its of wide interest; it is a magnet for disruptive editing because it relates to a conflict with passionate people on both sides who wage a war of perception across the Internet. I'd like to see a cogent rationale for its inclusion, before we get too far into trying to find some consensus on what it should say. Keep in mind, too, that any talkpage consensus will be largely ignored by single purpose editors engaged in the revert war. Avruch ^T 21:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your point about the cogent rationale is fair enough; I won't argue against that. The problem with ignoring consensus is a different question: The single purpose editors who add the TfJ information don't find this page by random search and then edit it; they come here because they have heard about Mr Fein's connection with TfJ somewhere else and want to add what they feel is relevant information. Removing the information altogether will not prevent these editors from readding it; it thus will not solve the conflict. — Sebastian 22:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, you're right that removing the information won't completely solve the problem. On the other hand, I think a consensus on keeping the subject out of the article until it becomes more notable to Fein's life will be easier to maintain than a textual consensus on how the coverage will read. Avruch ^T 22:16, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To prevent further edit fights, I recommend placing the article or just that paragraph under the Sri Lanka Dispute Resolution Agreement - see discussion at WT:SLR#Bruce Fein. — Sebastian 20:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the article in which Fein discussed the Armenian congressional resolution really qualifies him as an "Armenian genocide denier." He simply said that evidence points to Armenia also committing massacres (of the Turks) at that time as well, Turks also being massacred during World War II, and numbers of Armenians killed being inflated over time (he thinks the original quoted number of 500,000 is more likely than over a million). Seems to me he was just putting things in perspective and wondering why the alleged atrocities against the Turks weren't similarly acknowledged by Congress, not saying that the Armenian genocide didn't happen at all. I could be wrong, which is why I left a note on the talk page. I don't think that people should be included in such categories unless it's absolutely clear that they believe that way.--Gloriamarie (talk) 20:36, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is absolutely no evidence for Armenian massacres of Turks. Furthermore, the 1.5 million calim has remained constant since 1924. There was no Armenian attempt to liquidate Turkish existence, but the converse did happen, according to the author of the policy Talaat Pasha whose book on the matter was put into modern Turkish last year. Read Talaat, Ms. Marie, and get a real perspective on what happened. Finally, I would like to see some coverage of Fein's own personal background. I do not view his discourse as that of a neutral party. He seems to come from a community deeply aligned to Turkey, and if that is the case, then he needs to be seen as an agent of the Turkish government in more ways than simply getting his annual thirty pieces of silver.