Talk:Murder

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Numbers 35:15-29 is the legal trial of the accused manslayer and the legal judgment. Just thought this might be important in the religion part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glorthac (talk • contribs) 19:34, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The statistical entries on prevalence of murder in various countries are presently scattered throughout the article. I'd suggest they'd be better gathered into one section, perhaps in a wikitable. Comments? LeadSongDog 14:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The very last external link, Murder Capital of the World. - Pop Rock Band from Boston, does not seem to belong in this article on the crime. I'm not removing it in case its inclusion was previously discussed but could someone else involved in this article take a look at it? Thanks, CWPappas 04:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I removed it as spam. Bearian 19:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone clarify this in the Murder#Degrees of murder section? It appears to be rather vague, and I can seem to imagine any "other murder" that wouldn't already be classified in the first two degrees. Is it a result of my ignorance in the matter of murder classification, or is the claim in need of assessment/improvement?--C.Logan 00:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was bold. I edited out lots of extra verbiage, and added cites and tags. Bearian 19:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just in case anyone else see this, it is a parody: Man Sentenced To 3 Months Probation For 17th-Degree Murder, 'The Onion, October 16, 2007, retrieved 10/17/07 [1]. Bearian 19:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the link to abortion from the See Also section for the following reason: abortion is currently legal in the USA and most of the western world. Thus, it does not fit the stated definition at the beginning of the article. Whether or not you personally believe it should be illegal has no bearing on whether it currently is or not. Having the link in the See Also section strongly implies that abortion is an instance of murder, which it is not, under current legal codes. WP is not a political battleground (or shouldn't be, at least), so don't reinsert it until the government(s) converge on its illegality. 24.95.50.34 05:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Linking abortion is merely pushing someone's own point of view.—Esurnir 00:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I understand the logic. Abortion is not legal worldwide, under current legal codes. And in legal localations, it is by no means a fringe concept that abortion is a "form of murder." Additionally, abortion as fetal homicide is addressed directly in the article. Abeall (talk) 17:59, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I propose to archive the talk page which become excessively long up to the Statistic section. Is there anyone who think we should do something else or do you agree ?—Esurnir 00:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The introduction, and specifically the section beginning Legal Analysis of Murder seems to be written from a specifically American point of view (is the "felony/murder doctrine" used more widely?), but there's nothing to indicate this in the text; it appears to be implying that this legal analysis is generally appropriate, regardless of jurisdiction. There's a vague mention of Common Law, but that applies to most of the Commonwealth, as well as to America. I'm not 100% sure that this doesn't apply to Common Law jurisdictions in general, but if someone who knows more than m could see if they think it needs a rewrite... --wintermute (talk) 21:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Legal Analysis of Murder section takes the English common law approach to murder. Roughly 2/3 of US states have changed the definition of murder to a variation of the following:

Model Penal Code. Part II. Definition of Specific Crimes. Offenses Involving Danger to the Person. Article 210. Criminal Homicide.

210.1 Criminal Homicide (1)A person is guitly of criminal homicide if he purposely, knowingly, recklessly or negligently causes the death of another human being. (2)Criminal homicide is murder, manslaughter or negligent homicide 210.2 Murder (1)Except "a homicide...committed under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance for which there is reasonable explanation or excuse," criminal homicide constitutes murder when: (a)it is committed purposely or knowingly; or (b)it is committed recklessly under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life. Such recklessness and indifference are presumed if the actor is engaged or is an accomplice in the commission of, or an attempt to commit, or flight after committing or attempting to commit robbery, rape or deviate sexual intercourse by force or threat of force, arson burglary, kidnapping or felonious escape.

2.02.(2)(a)Purposely. A person acts purposely with respect to a material element of an offense when:(i)if the element involves the nature of his conduct or a result thereof, it is his conscious object to engage in conduct of that nature or to cause such result; (b)Knowingly. A person acts knowingly with respect to a material element of an offense when: (i)if the element involves the nature of his conduct, he is aware that it is practically certain that his conduct will cause such a result; (c) Recklessly. A person acts recklessly with respect to a material element of an offense when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the material element exists or will result from his conduct. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that, considering the nature and purpose of the actor's conduct and the circumstances known to him, its disregard involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a law-abiding person would observe in the actor's situation.

That is the uniform example of the definition of murder in the majority of U.S. jurisdictions. A reckless homicide that does not manifest extreme indifference to human life is manslaughter. Notice the absence of "malice aforethought" in the Model Penal Code definition. Murder is an English word that had a very specific definition at common law. That definition is represented here. Technically, any discussion of "murder" in a non-English common law system should be described as "criminal homicide." Criminal homicide is the neutral term. Because this is an article about murder, the English common law definition is appropriate and is intrinsically a world wide view of the English term. While some may prefer the U.S. definition here, the general term is more useful to English speakers wishing to know how native English speakers handle their homicides. The specifics of murder vary greatly among jurisdictions. The U.S. has 52+ definitions with 2/3 adopting variations of the above. The general definition given is sufficient and does not overly confuse the issue by discussing the differences around the world. Legis Nuntius (talk) 04:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The topic of murder figures large in fiction (just ask Miss Marple), movies, et cetera. Some mention of the subject should be made, even if it's just a link to another article.LeadSongDog (talk) 22:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This section needs a NPOV for two reasons

• It disputes early translations of the bible such as the Latin vulgate. The number of Orthodox Christian religions including Catholics, which use the "early translations" exceed 1 billion. this is obviously a Protestant/Orthodox issue and unnecessary to a legal article on murder.
• The section is entitled "Background", when it is essentially Murder in Abrahamic tradition. The 12 commandments is not the first instance of murder as a crime. Murder in the bible is not the background. Western cultures rejected the eye for an eye theory by grading murders. Manslaughter or negligent homicide would necessarily require execution under eye for an eye. Supreme Court Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes among others identified this distinction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legis Nuntius (talk • contribs) 15:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've attempted to clean this up some, but it still needs work, especially because it completely lacks any Jewish or Islamic interpretation: does it differ substantially? How? Also NPOV would demand comparable paras for other major religions' prohibitions.LeadSongDog (talk) 22:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed the section name, but can't see any instances of it disputing the Latin vulgate translation (all it's doing at the moment is anylysing it) so someone must already have fixed that. Smartguy777 (talk) 07:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC).[reply]

• In the Abrahamic relgions, God commits murder on a regular basis and orders his followers to do it as well. That leads to some ambiguity. It should be made clear that when God commits a murder or orders it done, followers of the religion don't consider it murder.

i added this '(and often the most serious)' but please feel free to remove if you think it is too messy 82.41.253.56 (talk) 13:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is rather unclear as in my opinion too often the word 'murder'is used where it should be 'killing' or 'homicide'. Definitions like "it is or is not murder if the murderer....." That already implies that it is a murder otherwise there would be no murderer. Also, I get the feeling that the definitions of murder in the article regarding the USA, do not differentiate clearly enough with 'manslaugther' The general definition of murder in this article is 'with Malice aforethought'(which basically is 'intent') whereas 'manslaugther' (in it's own article) can also be with intent (voluntary manslaugther).

As such, the section on murder in the netherlands -though largely correct in its own right- combines discusion of the two: "Murder" is planned and with the intention to kill, whereas 'doodslag' (literally 'deadbeating') sees the intent to kill at th every moment but without planning. 'doodslag' therefore could indeed be compared to 'voluntary manslaugther' but the two systems do not fully cover eachother. [ed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.159.134.161 (talk) 12:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder Article[reply]

Text available at Indian Penal Code applies in much of S. Asia. Someone want to write it in? LeadSongDog (talk) 05:35, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If there is a list of notable suicides, why isn't there a list of notable murders? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saberwolf116 (talk • contribs) 23:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because the truly notable ones are the ones who never get caught.169.139.176.131 (talk) 20:54, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I know that, for my for my own jurisdiction, there is no limitation on the time in which the state can bring a murder charge. My impression is this is generally true for jurisdictions in the U.S.A. Even if only some jurisdictions follow this, it should be noted. I will check for a citation, but if anyone else has one, feel free to add the info.InMyHumbleOpinion (talk) 08:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I propose removing this section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Insanity

Everything in it appears to refer to a defense to any crime. The section is not specific to murder. Even if it were, it is not a mitigating factor that leads to a lesser offense, but a not guilty. Granted, jurisdictions that use that then have mental health commitment available, but again, that is for any crime.

This section is distinguishable from diminished capacity and what is awkwardly titled "Unintentional" in that those sections deal with how those situations change murder to manslaughter, something particular to murder, as opposed to affecting murder the same as any other crime, by giving a not guilty by reason of insanity.

Self defense is also distinguishable, but not for the reasons listed. If a person acts in self defense in any battery/assault/murder/injury to person crime, then the person is not guilty. However, the bit about it not being self defense 'if the killer established control of the situation before the killing took place.' I think the real distinction, or at least another distinction, is that when you lethal force, it's not self defense unless it was necessary to prevent lethal force (as opposed to any force) against yourself. Also, with exceptions, there is a duty to retreat before using lethal force in self defense, where there generally is no such duty before using non-lethal force in self defense.InMyHumbleOpinion (talk) 08:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a wiki account, but I felt I had to comment on this point. I agree with the sentiment that Insanity Defense is not specific enough to murder to be on this page. Propose for clarity:

Remove all defenses EXCEPT for passing references and give them their own page(s), ie.

"As established by precedent in American Jurisprudence, multiple legal defenses exist for the criminal charge of "murder." Among these are insanity (under McNaughten Rule, for citation), forced complicity (referred to by laypeople as blackmail or "he made me do it"), diminished capacity, and justifiable self-defense. Note that this list is not inteded to be comprehensive."

And then hyperlink each defense named for it's own page that will then show the USC text and any other global information available. You need to mention which jurisdiction (in this case American) so people don't scream bias.

One point regarding "self-defense": No matter what direction the offender is facing, if they are moving AWAY from you it is no longer self-defense as they are considered to be in retreat. If you 'attack' at that point you then become the aggressor. For example, someone bashes in your front door and stops cold at the site of you behind a loaded gun. If he steps towards you then you may shoot him "in self-defense". If he steps back and away (while still facing you) and you shoot him it is a crime on your part as he was considered to be in retreat. KY has recently changed their interpretation to allow for the "defensive attack" of a home invader wether or not he is in retreat, but this has yet to be put to the test in court.

--a prelaw student in KY, USA. 71.28.232.179 (talk) 14:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the information on weregild is pertinent, but the section is misleading as it suggests that it the concept only belonged to the Vikings (and I think Vikings as used here isn't appropriate either, but that's a lesser issue). The Wikipedia article on weregild itself references a good portion of the cultures of Europe practicing some form of weregild. In fact, the word itself is Germanic in origin. The bit about unjust killing I'm less sure of, but the Vikings were not the only warrior culture and I find it hard to believe a number of other cultures failed to recognize something similar.

The information itself is relevant, but should possibly be moved up in the article, in a history section. Maybe near the Bible section. And, of course, it should give a better picture of the full range of cultures that used weregild.

By the way, The Common Law also makes references to weregild and practices that surround it, if I remember correctly.InMyHumbleOpinion (talk) 09:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we should add the Austrian definition of murder which is very large and by this unique:

§75 of criminal law reads: "The one who kills someone else shall be punished by imprisonment from 10 to 20 years or by life long imprisonment." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr.leben (talk • contribs) 18:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since when does murder only include "unlawful" life-ending? Does that mean executions, abortions, wars, etc., aren't murders? I previously understood that the distinction was that these don't fall within the realm of "homicide" laws. I mean, they're still murdering them; it's just not considered unlawful. Maybe we need some kind of three-sided Venn diagram to illustrate the difference between "homicide", "murder", and "killing". 24.3.14.157 (talk) 00:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As you use the word, it's a moral definition; this article is about the legal definition. Jurisdictions tend to legitimise homicides which would otherwise be murder by providing exceptions such as you mention. Moral philosophy is outside the scope of this article. --Rodhullandemu 00:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Murder is not only a legal concept. If this article is to be purely restricted to the legal notion, then it should be moved to murder (law) or some such. That said, I would certainly not like to see the article become a refuge for polemics regarding abortion etc. At most there might be a small section referencing the views of various thinkers and groups on these topics. --Trovatore (talk) 00:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you have it exactly backwards. Homicide is any killing of another. It does not become murder (and therefore a crime) unless it is both unlawful, and done with the requisite state of mind. This is why, for example, a killing that is made in self-defense, which is no crime, is called "justifiable homicide." See Kinsey v. State, 65 P.2d 1141, 1152 (Ariz. 1937) ("Under our law, ‘homicide,’ which may be defined as the killing of a human being by another, must be either (a) justifiable, (b) excusable, (c) manslaughter, (d) murder of the second degree, or (e) murder of the first degree. No other class of homicide is possible."), cited with approval in ROLLIN M. PERKINS & RONALD N. BOYCE, CRIMINAL LAW 46 & n.1 (3d ed. 1982). Although a relatively old treatise, it was cited with approval in Holloway v. United States, 526 U.S. 1, 10 n.8, 12 n.12 (1999), Farmer v. Brennan, 511 U.S. 825, 837 (1994), and on several other occasions, leading me to believe it is a respected and reliable source. MrArticleOne (talk) 15:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note, also, that this conforms with dictionary definitions. For example, the 4th edition of the American Heritage Dictionary defines it as "[t]he unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice." MrArticleOne (talk) 20:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, you can't refute the claim that something is "not only a legal concept" by citing law cases. I mean, obviously. Murder is also a moral concept, and distinct from "homicide". No one would claim, for example, that a purely accidental killing is murder, either in a legal or moral sense, but it's still homicide. --Trovatore (talk) 20:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I noted the dictionary definition to establish that the non-legal definition mirrors the legal definition, at least on the issue of lawfulness, which is what prompted this conversation thread in the first place. The original poster asked whether executions, wars, and whatnot were "murders," and neither the law nor common layman's usage reflects that they are. Your point, that it is not confined to just the legal definition, seems to support the notion that "murder" should be considered broader than just the traditional common law definition. However, on this matter, the traditional common law definition and common actual English usage overlap on the issue of whether an act must be unlawful for it to amount to murder. MrArticleOne (talk) 20:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's one entry in one dictionary. I am fairly certain dictionaries can be found that will document the common actual English usage that has nothing to do with law, or at least not Man's law. People really do use the term that way, and they're not wrong. As I say, I don't want this article to become a collection of polemics on the topic, but I don't think it can be ignored altogether. --Trovatore (talk) 21:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Virtually identical definition in my Random House Dictionary ("the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law."). MrArticleOne (talk) 21:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem, as I see it, is that activists seeking to make a rhetorical point will sometimes sloppily refer to something they are opposed to as "murder" in order to associate it with the moral opprobrium that attends the concept of "murder." MrArticleOne (talk) 21:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree that this is "sloppy". They may be wrong on whether a particular instance of killing is murder, but they are not wrong that that question is not purely a legal one. Oh, they'd be wrong in a legal brief, of course, because there the legal sense of the word is assumed. But in the real world there's also natural law or moral law, with its own notion of "murder" over which the courts have no jurisdiction. --Trovatore (talk) 21:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If it isn't supported by solid dictionary evidence that it is typical common usage, then it's really more of a poetic point that's being made, no different than if I said cutting down a tree is "murder" of the tree. I'm certainly free to make that point if I'm writing in an environmentalist newsletter; it isn't good form for an encyclopedia. MrArticleOne (talk) 21:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is typical common usage, and there's nothing poetic about it. It expresses a claim of moral fact. The claim may be true or not true, but there is a fact of the matter about it, unlike in poetry. If the dictionaries don't recognize this, that's unfortunate. --Trovatore (talk) 21:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note, also, that a hypothetical definition of "murder" that incorporates a "moral law," such as that all killing of another is wrongful, makes "murder" identical to "homicide." This makes the concept of "murder" as distinguished from "homicide" useless as an analytic tool. It would be pointless to have separate articles on this project about the two. The concepts that have been debated here more properly belong either in the article on homicide (for example, the article on homicide may note that at law, not all homicide is criminal, and thus not all murder, but that some moral theorists argue that all killing of another is wrongful and ought to be considered murder) or else in a separate article altogether on the morality of killing. MrArticleOne (talk) 02:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? If all killing of another were wrongful, then you could at least argue that murder in a moral sense would be coextensive with homicide (still not a given, as there could be a moral category for wrongful kiling that's not murder). But that isn't the case; there are instances in which the killing of another is not morally wrongful. Virtually everyone will agree with that; even the most extreme sort of pacifist must allow that a purely accidental killing is not a moral wrong. I think you're looking at this as a lawyer (you are a lawyer, I'm guessing?), and of course in the context of legal analysis, you're right. But that is not the only relevant context. --Trovatore (talk) 02:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is the only relevant context to the extent that we have separate articles for "murder" and "homicide." The distinguishing characteristic of murder from homicide is that it is done unlawfully. All of the rest is debate about whether certain homicides should be considered murder, which has nothing to do with what actual murder is (only what some people argue that it ought to be). Murder is an intrinsically legal concept; indeed, both dictionary definitions I mentioned earlier prefaced the definition with the explanation "Legal." (They also contained the definition for a "murder" being a group of crows, but that's obviously neither here nor there.) MrArticleOne (talk) 03:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's the (or at least a) distinguishing characteristic in the legal context. In the moral context murder is still not the same thing as homicide, and I don't know why you keep claiming that; I've already refuted it quite definitively. As for it being intrinsically a legal concept, you're just wrong. --Trovatore (talk) 03:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is absolutely an intrinsic legal context, because in world where the concepts of both "homicide" and "murder" exist, the only difference is the difference imposed by the law, that the killing homicide be unlawful. MrArticleOne (talk) 03:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is false. The concept of "murder" exists in moral law, and is not the same as homicide (which is not a moral concept, just a purely descriptive one), and whether a homicide is murder according to moral law has nothing to do with what any legislature or court has said. --Trovatore (talk) 03:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't say as that makes any sense to me. It certainly doesn't deny that murder is the unlawful killing of another (with malice aforethought, but we're not debating that). You're just picking a different legislator. If Malaysia decided to legalize "eye for an eye" vengeance-killing, that would not be murder there just as it would be murder here; substitute "God" for "Malaysia" and the analytic framework is the same. It still must be unlawful to be distinct from homicide. MrArticleOne (talk) 03:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, because the term "lawful" rarely refers to moral or natural law. It's more limited to human law than the term "murder" is. (It's true that it can be used in the sense of moral law; it's just rarer). --Trovatore (talk) 03:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Citation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrArticleOne (talk • contribs) 03:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's my sense of the language. If you restrict "murder" to mean "unlawful killing", it appears to me that you are talking about legislatures and courts, whereas "murder" is not only about legislatures and courts. When people claim that various sorts of killings are murder, you may agree with them or not, but they are in general not speaking metaphorically or poetically; they are making a claim of fact, and not one as trivially refutable as finding a statute that says that sort of killing is not murder. --Trovatore (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your "sense of the language" is not controlling here; the article must be verifiable. The assertion that certain sorts of things "are" murder, without qualification, does properly belong in the sense of metaphor or poetry, because, according to the cooperative principle, our rhetorical exchanges are supposed to make a good-faith effort not to talk past each other. Appealing to a moral law as the referent for what constitutes the legal standard by which an act of homicide will be held to be murder breaks the ground rules that, in the civil realm, the laws in question are the civil laws. MrArticleOne (talk) 04:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But it's not a given that we are talking about the "civil realm". As for verifiability, I'm certain we can find writings that speak of murder in other than a legal sense. And no, using moral law to speak of what "is" murder does not belong to metaphor or poetry, not if you believe in moral realism (and that there is a category of murder within factually existing morality). --Trovatore (talk) 04:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent)Just in case someone wants to read this.LeadSongDog (talk) 04:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the page should mention that the word "murder" (in English) did not historically mean killing someone but, rather, stealthily killing someone. Because in the Old Days killing someone face-to-face, in front of witnesses, was not necessarily a crime. Gradually "murder" acquired a more general sense of "intentional homicide," but this was not its original meaning. 99.231.111.157 (talk) 19:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is half true. In the "Old Days," or more specifically at Common Law, Bracton (1210 - 1268 AD), described the term "murder" as: Murdrum vero est occulta extraneorum et notorum hominum occisio a manu hominum nequiter perpetrata, et quae nullo sciente vel vidente facta est praeter solum interfectorem et suos coadiutores et fautores, et ita quod non statim assequatur clamor popularis. "Murder is the secret slaying of man by the hand of man, (whether those slain are known or strangers,) (committed wickedly,) done out of the sight of and unknown to all except the slayer alone and his accomplices and abettors so that no public hue and cry immediately pursues them, and (where) who the slayer is cannot be ascertained."[2] Bracton also described the crime of homicidius as: Voluntate, ut si quis ex certa scientia et in assultu praemeditato, ira vel odio vel causa lucri, nequiter et in felonia et contra pacem domini regis aliquem interfecerit. "By intention, as where one in anger or hatred or for the sake of gain, deliberately and in premeditated assault, has killed another wickedly and feloniously and in breach of the king's peace."[3] He further goes on to describe murdrum as a subset of homicidius as we do today. Where the above claim concerning "Old Days" errs is the "face-to-face, in front of witnesses, was not necessarily a crime." Homicidius was very clearly a crime against the crown (contra pacem domini regis) "against the peace of our lord and king" even when face-to-face and in front of witnesses. You can very clearly see how the definition of murder has evolved from the common law. We have Voluntate, the "intent" which would exclude accidental deaths and the insane. We have assultu praemeditato "by premeditated assault" or "aforethought." We have ira vel odio "anger or hatred" or "malice." Finally we have contra pacem domini regis "against the peace of our lord and king" or "unlawful." 144.118.147.170 (talk) 23:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you, dear admins, please delete this "(1)" from the section about German criminal law. It is about Mord. This seems to have been forgotten by some previous contributors. Thank you. Hans Rosenthal (ROHA) (15072008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.148.111.199 (talk) 07:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Done --Rodhullandemu 16:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This part of the article compares murder rates in different contries. Theese are however hard to compare, because of different legal definitions of the term "murder". I think this should be reflected in this paragraph. --93.135.60.193 (talk) 05:10, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to inform you all, I made some changes to this article on the "The Netherlands" section,

Jouke Bersma —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.170.26 (talk) 10:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are most murders are committed by someone who has never murdered before (either because crimes of passion are more common than organized crime, or because the justice system prevents murderers from re-offending most of the time)? Statistics on this would be an interesting insight. -- Beland (talk) 18:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi big editors, I found these pages Misdemeanor murder, Crime of passion, Depraved heart murder, Double murder, Murder conviction without a body - that warrant mention within the main article on murder. Perhaps in the 'see also' area. Cheers.

(I'm not personally able to edit the main article in its protected state) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AB Danuvius (talk • contribs) 18:32, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any murder is almost ALWAYS planned and deliberate (on purpose) if the accused intimidate the victim FIRST then murder the victim. It is called "Bullying then Murder". Anyone who intimidate then murder while intoxicated can be excused in United States but cannot be excused in Canada. Intoxication may not reduce the crimes of the murder in Canada if resulting murder is considered to be planned and deliberate (on purpose). ONLY mental illness CAN be a defence and can reduce to manslaughter or even an acquittal.

Danielcg (talk) 08:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This would need a source. As far as UK law is concerned, your first sentence isn't necessarily so; all of the circumstances are taken into account, and the deciding factor is whether the accused intended to kill or cause grievous bodily harm. --Rodhullandemu 13:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agreed your comment. I do not have any source but I am only focus on Canada laws, not UK or US. However, Canadian Criminal Code did specify an intimidation but not clear. It points to Section 423.1 but not Section 423. So therefore the murder while committing direct intimidation (not covered in Section 423.1) may be subject to jury discretion and the circumstances. I will examine that section and may update here. By my opinion, Canadain Criminal Code law should be changed to says "Murder while committing the intimidation" should point to Section 423 rather than Section 423.1. Also, most murders are done AFTER committing an intimidation directly on the victim are usually planned and deliberate; again the decision are up to the jury. -- Danielcg (talk) 05:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Intoxication is no defense in most US jurisdictions. The Supreme Court decided that there is no right to the intoxication defense in Montana v. Egelhoff, 518 U.S. 37. 76.124.87.208 (talk) 07:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a link to the Ordinance mentioned within the article as a reference source. The reference links to Bilingual Laws Information System, a site owned and managed by the Department of Justice of Hong Kong. Someone please check if this source I added is enough to fulfill the "reliable sources" needed for that section. Talk2chun (talk) 23:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The word murder is related, in old English, to the French word mordre (bite) in reference to the heavy compensation one must pay for causing an unjust death" This sounds like a typical folk etymology story. The actual etymology does mention "mordre" (and murdrum), but the connection to the compensation seems spurious and unsupported by the Chaucer quote given as reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.63.172.149 (talk) 18:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently states that "The German "Bundesgerichtshof", the highest German court of appeal, eventually convicted him of murder." While not being a law scholar, I believe this to be technically speaking incorrect. As far as I can remember the Bundesgerichtshof handed the case back to the trial court, overturning the original verdict and strongly suggesting that a murder conviction would be appropriate. The trial court eventually followed that suggestions. However, somebody who has some expertise in the field should check up on that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.199.81.171 (talk) 17:44, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You could point out it does not display interracial murder statistics as opposed to black vs white if you wish to pervert the course of human justice. If you are an academic criminologist you know this is "criminal". But you can if you want, you shouldn't just delete my edit you can elaborate on it if you want and you definitely shouldn't revert my edit where I removed information without a citation, since that information is apparent from the lack of citation and your reversion of it weakens the paragraph, unless you have an axe to grind of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.136.198 (talk) 23:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only "axe I have to grind" is that this article should reflect its reliable sources and preferably, be broadly based. Affinity crime is an important issue here, but if you feel you can improve the article by citing such sources, fine. However, it's a legal, rather than a criminological article as it currently stands, and such subtleties might be better spun off into a separate article. Rodhullandemu 23:23, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is that the correct translation? German jurisprudence somewhat flippantly calls the first 2 qualifiers of Mord "Mordlust und Lustmord". But the English term "lust" has a strong sexual connotation, whereas Mordlust has explicitly none (Lustmord - correctly rendered here as "to satisfy his sexual desires" - on the other hand has). But Mordlust and Lustmord are two independent qualifiers, and thus the translation is too literal in the case of Mordlust. An example of Mordlust would be a spree killing; "out of desire to kill" [implying: with no other motive at all, killing for killing's sake] might be a more appropriate translation. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 11:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why do so many of the sections have definitions of manslaugher (and other types of non-intention homicides)? I can understand if those jurisdictions define murder as 'homicides that are not manslaugher', since then a definition of manslaughter is needed to explain what murder is. But most jurisdictions define manslaughter as 'homicides that are not murder'. As it is right now, at the start of the article, under "Legal Definitions: Exclusions", the article specifically says Unlawful killings without malice or intent are considered manslaughter. That should be enough for this article. More detailed definitions should belong in manslaughter. If there is enough concensus, I propose removing the manslaughter defintions from the following sections: Canada, possibly England and Wales, Hong Kong, Israel, Italy, Portugal, Switzerland, and Sweden. (There may be more, but those are the ones I've spotted for now.) All of these sections are going beyond the scope of this article, and should have the manslaughter content moved to manslaughter. Singularity42 (talk) 23:15, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit curious there isn't the slightest discussion on why murders happen. The article is almost entirely focused to the legal dimension, ignoring the sociological and psychological. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.181.29.57 (talk) 00:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can we please find a non-American source that confirms that murderess is in use or disuse? Many terms that are not in use in the US are commonly used elsewhere. I hear murderess all the time. If a non-American source says this too, both should be referenced; otherwise, the statement needs to be clarified or removed. — Skittleys (talk) 03:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds weird to me (in Australia). I think it's quite out of place and in disuse but I'm not an academic resource though, so this comment's not worth much.Gregory j (talk) 05:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Murderess" is "proper" - as in, technically correct. But it's not tactical language, nor is it politically correct...I personally don't care if something is PC or not but if someone did, or if you thought your audience did, then you would use murderess when appropriate. It's the same with actor and actress, with author and authoress, with aviator and aviatrix...so it doesn't matter so much its status as far as in use or in disuse is concerned (I think, anyway)...what matters is that people know how to appropriately use the term, and then they can choose to use it or not as they see fit. If you're aiming for succinctness, maximum readability, and the most bang for your buck as far as word volume is concerned, you'd use murderer. If gender remained unspecified to this point and you wanted to clue people in to the murderer's female nature at this point, you could say murderess - much easier and more rolling-off-the-tongue than saying "the female/lady/woman murderer" or "the murderer, who was female" et cetera - see where I'm goin'? Do you see what I did there? --64.180.208.150 (talk) 08:05, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see where you're going, 64.180.208.150, and it's a detour. The question at hand is whether the article should say that the term "murderess" is disused. It hinges on whether there are citations for that statement, and not simply whether the statement is true. Your argument, that "murderess" *ought* to be used because it packs much meaning, is yet another step removed from relevance. Feel free to start a campaign to encourage the word's use, and subsequently to encourage reliable sources to note the usage, and then get back to us. TypoBoy (talk) 12:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

During the media coverage of the Oshrenko family murder on Channel 2 News, they said that a few MPs proposed to make murdering children under 13 years of age punishable by death. I don't remember which MPs, though, but I still think it's worth mentioning. Siúnrá (talk) 06:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no mention of the concept extending to other species. Have no notable biologists or zoologists found the concept useful to describe animal behavior? It seems to me that there is a differnce between predatory killing, even when it is intra-species, and the killing of another of one's species in order to get some kind of genetic advantage, as in when a male dies of wounds inflicted during rutting behavior, or the killing of cubs by a male lion after initially overthrowning an alpha male, or the fratracide of cookoos, and so on. As we are not memebers of these species, we see these as natural animal behaviors without the judgementalism of using the word "murder", but an article about murder should discuss it's origin in biology if reliable and notable thinkers can be quoted and cited. Chrisrus (talk) 05:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to remember a bit of a debate was caused in one of the African nations (I forget which) when a chimpanzee killed a baby; the debate was whether the chimpanzee had the mental capacity to understand it's actions and thus form the pre-meditation and forethought aspect needed for murder, there was also debate that if it could be proved whether the chimpanzee had sufficient mental capacity to stand trail. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 05:46, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Since I wrote this I've remembered only once in the lifetime of watching nature documentaries when the term was applied to an animal. The crew had captured something extraordinary: on a very crowded African velt, thousands of antelope crushed together desparately trying to find a mate. Battles were everywhere, but they were mostly of the common face-to-face variety. Caught on tape, and repeated slo-mo so we had to believe what we had seen, a fight between two bucks was ended when suddenly an interloper put his head down and speared one of the two combatants in the side and ran off. It was a shocking sight, and the writer decided to have the narrator use the word "murder" to describe it. I've never seen anything like it before or since. Cannibalism you hear applied to animals fairly frequently, apart from this case nature documentary writer seem to have very little use for the word murder. Chrisrus (talk) 05:06, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article is in genuine need to be cleaned up and reorganized. Many parts of the article refer to various unlawful homicides, such as manslaughter, infanticide, suicide etc. In my humble opinion, these should not be cramped into the article of murder, but should rather be placed in the article of homicide[[4]]. It is more preferable to concentrate on the crime of murder in this article.

It is reasonable to include attempted murder in this article, but I don't think we should be seeing all the manslaughters and suicides around. Craddocktm (talk) 15:27, 23 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"It has been suggested that this section be split into articles titled Murder in the United States."

I agree. Please split "murder" into separate articles by country, or at least by region to make info easier to find. Auntsylvie (talk) 18:28, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone add a link about the 'Necessity Defense' under the section describing degrees of murder in the United States.

And possibly add another series of articles as to how the defense might be used.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/0111/Necessity-defense-Did-abortion-doctor-need-to-die Auntsylvie (talk) 18:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. For me, the Hungarian, the degrees of murders are totally impossible to be understood by the article. Please enlight them more. 81.182.123.219 (talk) 23:34, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone find and add a cite to the Quran? Bearian (talk) 15:30, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Legal analysis of murder" and "Legal definition" are largely redundant and should be merged. But both Common Law definitions should, in my view, be preceded by historical definitions from The Bible, The Koran, and others. But to the readership we are addressing, the Common Law version would seem to be the mainstream from which all modern jurisdictions (particularly Western jurisdictions) take their cue. It's perhaps about time that Murder in English law be split off, not as a POV-fork, but as a basis from which the later developments can be argued. Rodhullandemu 23:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. I thought Murder in English law would be a WP:REDLINK, but it isn't, yet is sorely inadequate. The Common Law definitions and history would seem to belong there, with proper links back to this article. Rodhullandemu 23:30, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The murder distinguished from manslaughter section mentions only the partial defense of provocation; that's by no means the only reason for a manslaughter verdict. Possibly the author was thinking of a specific jurisdiction?

I've noticed that a lot of the legal articles seem overly specific to UK law, or maybe even England-and-Wales law. My guess is that means that there are a few editors contributing a lot on law, who happen to come from England. That's not a problem per se; the best solution would be to get more American legal scholars to contribute. I can't help with that (I'm not a lawyer, Jim, just a simple country mathematician.) But it would be good at least to acknowledge the specificity by saying in UK law or some such. --Trovatore (talk) 21:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This section begins with William Blackstone (citing Edward Coke), setting out the common law definition of murder. This definition begins with "when a person, of sound memory and discretion, unlawfully killeth any reasonable creature in being and under the king's peace, with malice aforethought ..."

However in the four essentials of murder which directly follow, "unlawfully" has disappeared. This does seem to me to be a serious omission. It may be claimed that this is covered by "malice aforethought" but I would prefer the illegality to be made more explicit. 90.192.26.228 (talk) 21:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct; "unlawful" and "with malice aforethought" cover different issues, and it should be made plain that "unlawfully" is intended to exclude killing sanctioned by the State, i.e. executions, killing during the course of war, etc. Rodhullandemu 21:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The opening intro for this article states that in the US, people convicted of murder may be punished by life-time prison sentences, or "even the death penalty". The word "even" assumes that the death penalty is somehow a harsher punishment. This is certainly up for debate as many people would consider a life-time prison sentence to actually be a harsher experience. Basically, the wording is very biased and opinionated; something Wikipedia must avoid. Thank you. Sdukeminloodwig3 (talk) 18:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What does it mean "unlawful"? How to prove a killing was unlawful? For example, was killng of Jews by the Nazis unlawful, so was it murder according the German criminal code of 1871? Is killing unlawful only if the killed is a citizen? Does specific order to kill somebody make the killing lawful? Does killing somebody when being on duty (such as killing by police when trying to arrest somebody) makes the killing lawful? Is killing by a secret service officer according his orders a murder (for example, the man who killed Trotsky - he was awarded, so he was not a criminal according the Soviet law)? I noticed that while in the Crimilal Code of the RSFSR the definition of murder included "unlawful", currently this property has been dropped. Does it mean any solder who kills somebody in a battle can be tried for murder? --MathFacts (talk) 16:44, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Despite being redirected to a (currently non-existing) section in this page, third degree murder is not defined here. --77.98.171.189 (talk) 21:40, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The line about "third-degree murder" under California's 2007 law is repeated all over the Internet now, but I can't find it in any reliable legal source. I am not a lawyer, but I suspect it is inaccurate. The 2007 California DUI law changed the penalties for the various degrees of vehicular homicide. It did not create a third degree of murder. The practice of charging certain drunk drivers with second-degree murder is based on the idea of implied malice, and it is rooted in state case law. Iglew (talk) 07:39, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Murder is the leading cause of death for African American males aged 15 to 34. {{Where))

In 2006, FBI's Supplementary Homicide Report indicated that most of the 14,990 murder victims were Black (7421).