Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Airrow A-8S Stealth

Airrow A-8S Stealth

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Series of orphaned, dead-end articles on air rifles and pistols lacking any references consisting completely of original research. Might be appropriate for a product section within articles on individual manufacturers that meet notability guidelines but these products do not rise to level of notability warranting a dedicated article for each of these:

RadioFan (talk) 03:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. —œ ^™ 08:06, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. —œ ^™ 08:08, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Firearms-related deletion discussions. —œ ^™ 08:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep/Merge, At least one is worth keeping: Girandoni Air Rifle, but the rest would probably be better off merged into List of air guns to make that a more detailed list with short summaries of each air gun. Seems a laborious task but a much better option than wiping out all this content. -- œ ^™ 07:54, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Even summarized and merged, references are going to need to be identified and used. wikipedia is not a publisher of original research.--RadioFan (talk) 10:58, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. But unreferenced is not a reason to delete. All this content is still encyclopedic, and is verifiable. References can be added in time, material challenged and likely to be challenged can be removed. I'm not seeing much OR in these, mostly just short descriptions of the guns. -- œ ^™ 11:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Merging the kind of short descriptions you mention would be a good outcome here. My earlier comment was just a (poorly worded) reminder that references still need to be there, especially any technical details, without a verifiable source for this information, that's OR.

KEEP ALL. At most there are only two that I can see that could be deleted and they should be nominated separately. A lot of work has gone in to these articles and there are a number of start class articles in here. There are also some interesting historical articles with photographs of 100+ year old air rifles. A lot of work has gone in to these and the "right to bear arms" applies since many meet WP:GNG. Obviously, some require more references but it isn't fair to nominate these articles en masse. Nipsonanomhmata ^(Talk) 10:22, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The amount of effort put into these articles, by one editor in particular, how interesting they are, or how old the subjects are do not excuse them from Wikipedia requirements and guidelines, particularly notability and verifiability. It's not at all clear how these articles might meet notability guidelines as they few that have any references use primary sources or fan forums as references. The only claim of notability in any of them is that they are old which is not sufficient to meet WP:GNG.--RadioFan (talk) 10:58, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many have also been used by the American military and in notable wars. Also, with regards to WP:EFFORT, it may not excuse the author from following certain guidelines, (and I'm not saying this is why they all should be kept) but recognizing and giving due consideration to the amount of effort a user puts into improving the project helps the community as a whole, because it allows us to retain editors instead of driving them away (and it looks like almost all of these were in fact created by the same user, Yunnuy (talk · contribs) who may not even be aware all his creations are at risk of deletion.. I've left him a note on his talk page). Indeed I'm glad this was brought up, as it seems editor retention is more important now than it ever was before: see the recent 'call to action' from the Foundation, urging us to "increase community awareness", and "work with colleagues to reduce contention and promote a friendlier, more collaborative culture, including more thanking and affirmation". Sorry for the spiel -- œ ^™ 12:06, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm half-temped to suggest keeping simply because I dislike mass nominations (especially seeing List of air guns here). However, in the spirit of AGF, I will consider more closely if the nominator assures us all that he (she?) took the time to study each article at length for any redeeming qualities, searched for sources to prove notability, and attempted to improve. bahamut0013^words _deeds 20:38, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The discusion here is on whether or not these articles meet notability guidelines, let's keep the discussion there.--RadioFan (talk) 20:59, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Notability isn't the only concern addressed in the nomination, nor is it the only relevant concern. The responsibility is on any XfD nominator to prove that due dilligence was done in making sure that his ir her concerns were not readily fixible; and I think a simple assurance is not asking for too much proof. Like I said, I will consider more closely if offered that. bahamut0013^words _deeds 11:54, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I assure you a good faith attempt was made to search for references to help determine some notability here since none was claimed in the articles. The results of searches were of unclear reliability. The generic nature of some of these titles brings up a variety of hits from guns to video games to computer equipment. So here we are. If there are sources that consensus here deems reliable and the articles updated so that they may meet WP:GNG then great. Again, let's focus on these articles and not descend any further into WP:LAWYERING.--RadioFan (talk) 17:45, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Allrightythen, let's move on. Delete Airrow A-8S Stealth, BAM B26, Gat air pistol, IHP Airpistol 0.177, National CO2 Air Pistol (.177), Shooting Star Tommy Gun, and Webley Stinger. The BSA Supersport Air Rifle and BSA Ultra can be redirected to Gamo (airgun manufacturer), while Sterling HR-81 should probably redirect to Sterling Armaments Company. I'm a bit more dubious about BSA Scorpion Air Pistol: the photos do match the ones used in the film, but I couldn't find an RS explicitly naming them, so no opinion on this one. For Drozd BB rifle, one of the sources seems legit enough, but I'm on the fence about whether is establishes notability or not (so neutral here too). Keep Girandoni Air Rifle, it seems to be less a replica/toy/airsoft gun and more an actual historical tool, having been used on the Lewis and Clark expedition, and has a couple of good sources. I'd like to keep Kunitomo air gun for similar reasons, but it's unsourced, so I'd default to a weak delete unless somebody finds a good ref. McGlashan Air Machine Gun and Palmer BB Machine Gun seem to have notability as WWII training tools; though I haven't been able to verify the book listed, I think they are keepers. I'd say the same for the McGlashan Coin Shooting Pistol if only it had a better source; I'd wager the same book probably could reference this one, so I'm gonna AGF and say weak keep. List of air guns is in terrible shape, but I do think it is a worthy list (remember, the requirements for a list are different than an article), and think a weak keep is in order (without prejudice to renomination if it doesn't improve in a reasonable amount of time). bahamut0013^words _deeds 12:14, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I didnt add all listed and not just for no reason. The ones i did add are the becouse:

Airrow A-8S Stealth (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - A notable development of a high pressure air weapon since the Girandoni.
Kunitomo air gun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Its a Japanese derivative of the Girandoni and does have a historical role in the development of pneumatic weapons.
McGlashan Air Machine Gun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views),Palmer BB Machine Gun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) & Shooting Star Tommy Gun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Becouse they had roles during WW2 as a cost effective training device.
McGlashan Coin Shooting Pistol (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - There is already an article but decided to give its own page.
Gat air pistol (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Becouse it has become somthing of British fairground culture as it has been around on stalls since the 1950s?.
Webley Stinger (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Becouse its one of the few BB Guns that use a slide action and an overhead magazine.
List of air guns (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - To list examples down for the same reason as the List of firearms but sectioned for air weapons.

Yunuy 23:48PM, 11/5/2011 (UTC)