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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Fyunck(click) (talk | contribs) at 09:09, 11 December 2011 (→‎in general: general guideline). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

RfC on NOTCENSORED

Due to a number of disputes that have arisen over the years involving NOTCENSORED, as well as the above-noted conflict, I am opening a policy RfC on the question below, which as far as I can tell is the crux of the problem. I believe our position on this subtle point needs to be clarified, particularly in light of the Recent foundation resolution on controversial content.

RfC Question
NOTCENSORED is necessary to protect controversial content which makes a clear and unambiguous contribution to an article; This is a given. That being said, does NOTCENSORED also protect controversial content that adds little or no value to the article?

In other words, while there is a strong consensus that controversial images of (say) penises or vaginas are necessary on their namesake pages, or that the cartoons of Muhammad on Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy are central to the topic of that article, it is not clear that this same consensus extends to protect images which are merely decorative elements, artistic illustrations, unneeded exemplifications, page fillers, or other material of negligible content value for the article. --Ludwigs2 01:00, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Examples of places where the issue of applying NOTCENSORED to incidental material has arisen (more may be added as the RfC progresses):

NOTCENSORED does not protect incidental material

  • Support: Allowing NOTCENSORED to cover trivial material creates a difficult-to-resolve opening for violating NPOV: controversial images can be put on a page merely to be offensive, and held there by using NOTCENSORED to squelch discussion. This sets up the editing environment as a long-term BATTLEGROUND, where multiple editors try to address the issue and run into an endless wall of bureaucratic NOTCENSORED assertions. Wikipedia should not offend its readers with non-contributive controversial material (see wmf:Resolution:Controversial content). We offend where we have to, because we have to, not merely because we want to use that material. --Ludwigs2 01:00, 4 November 2011 (UTC)--Ludwigs2 15:53, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very cautious support. Given the murky definition of "incidental material" I'll support the following concepts: 1. If there is consensus that any content does not have educational value this policy is irrelevant and the content is not protected. 2. Complaints from readers about offensive material should at least be considered, and consistent complaints should require specific justification that the offensive content is truly necessary. Editors must not simply blow off the complaints as "not censored says we can" if there is an indication that a substantial number of readers strongly disapprove, though reader feedback does not override consensus. 3. NOTCENSORED must be clear enough that it cannot be used as a tool to censor talk page discussions of whether controversial content is appropriate. 4. Offensive content should not be used if there is non-offensive content that achieves the same goal. SDY (talk) 01:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Wikipedia does not seek to include as much offensive material as possible merely because offensive material is permitted in appropriate contexts. Especially with respect to images, editors frequently need to choose between alternatives with varying degrees of potential offensiveness. When multiple options are equally effective at portraying a concept, Wikipedia does not retain the most offensive options merely to "show off" its ability to include possibly offensive materials. Images containing offensive material that is extraneous, unnecessary, irrelevant, or gratuitous are not protected in the name of opposing censorship. --JN466 01:54, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support of principle NOTCENSORED should not "protect" any material. The purpose of NOTCENSORED is to provide a policy through which arguments that an image (or prose) should go for reasons of censorship can be squashed immediately. NOTCENSORED is a quick and easy response to a particular argument. it is not in any way an argument for the use of any material, as noted (perhaps in an extreme) by point 9 in the Wikipedia:Image use policy, "Shocking or explicit pictures should not be used simply to bring attention to an article." Pictures should be evaluated for usage independent of whether they would or would not be censored elsewhere. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:30, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unreserved support. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:05, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Not censored is often used ideologically as a justification for keeping material that is otherwise of no inherent value, as if any material that we can include, also should be included. This proposal helps clarify that point.Griswaldo (talk) 18:48, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. NOTCENSORED is not a substitute for editorial judgement. In cases where shocking or provocative images are not necessary for understanding of the subject, there's no need to dogmatically protect them. We should be able to have a rational discussion on what actually improves the article rather than just shouting at each other about censorship. For example, we don't include gruesome images of people's heads blown off in the suicide article. Is this censorship? No, its just good editorial judgement, and such judgement shouldn't be so difficult to defend. Kaldari (talk) 23:26, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mostly support per Kaldari, with emphasis on the editorial judgment part. I think Wikipedians, generally speaking, have a reflexive, knee-jerk reaction to exercising editorial judgment, and accusations of censorship are often bandied about unnecessarily. I think offensiveness is a fine consideration when media do little to increase readers' understanding. (This applies whether it is a photo of a random spider on the arachnophobia page; the use of a large number of way-post-death images of Muhammad even when images of Muhammad are rare, relatively speaking, in Islamic art; the use of a graphic photo of a dead person on the suicide page; etc etc etc.) There is no reason to cause offense unnecessarily when readers' benefit is trivially small. Calliopejen1 (talk) 00:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support although in this particular circumstance, that this is specifically about pictures of Muhammed, it galls me to support this because I think the pictures are OK to have. However, as a general rule, it seems that if we have something that 1) is of marginal encyclopedic value and 2) offends a lot of people, then from a business and political perspective it's pointless to include it. Have some perspective, people. (In the particular case of the Muhammed pictures, a case could be made for including them on grounds of principle. But for most cases -- you know, some really offensive gory or sexually extreme or otherwise inflamatory image and so forth, and it's entirely peripheral to the thrust of the article, let's be reasonable.) Herostratus (talk) 17:57, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per Griswaldo. --cc 11:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. One can oppose censorship without condoning gratuitous offence. It is the gratuitousness of the offence that is the problem here. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:07, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support NOTCENSORED is not an excuse for including irrelevant and trivially related offensive material in any article. In the article Automobile, a picture that contains both an automobile and a naked person deserves no special protection, because pictures of naked people do not add anything to the readers' understanding of automobiles. It does protect "offensive" images when they are not incidental or decorative, including naked bodies in all sorts of medicine-related and sexuality-related articles—but even there, the image(s) chosen should normally be the least-offensive image that conveys the necessary information, not the editors' favorite Playboy centerfold model. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:00, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, obviously. To me, the question is not just, or even primarily an issue of offense to readers per se. To take an instructive example, suppose that one is involved in a research project concerning an aspect of human sexuality. When writing a paper relating the results, and submitting it to a respected journal with academic peer review, would it be a good idea to include an essentially gratuitous collection of sexually explicit photographs taken during the course of the research to "illustrate" it? Such a submission runs a significant risk of not being taken seriously. If the reviewers and the editor do decide to publish the article, the photographs would not be included, in part to avoid making the journal look silly. Similarly, the present treatment of images in Wikipedia's sexology articles makes us look like jokers. Wikipedia's credibility is far too important to fritter it away just to make a point. Alessandra Napolitano (talk) 06:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. NOTCENSORED is often used frivolously to support POV pushing and intentional breaking of social norms as part of a cultural war. NOTCENSORED is for minimising disruption caused by unreasonable complaints, not for making sure that Wikipedia contains more 'offensive' content than it would without the policy and if nobody were trying to censor it. Hans Adler 12:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support NOTCENSORED is clearly being used to entirely prevent the ability for anyone to support the removal of an image due to offence, even if the value offered by it is extremely limited. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very Cautious Support It comes down to what is incidental. This of course is determined by community consensus as different editors may disagree. Thus we will still frequently require RfCs and plenty of discussion. This is a fine balance. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:53, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support No policy should protect all content in all situations. Sometimes it is appropriate to remove an image that is not really adding to the article. The examples above show it can be misapplied. Thenub314 (talk) 04:00, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Qualified Oppose "Incidental" seems very subjective. Beyond495 (talk) 16:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Qualified Oppose: I don't like that our only choices here are to say "NOTCENSORED does not protect incidental material" or "NOTCENSORED does protect incidental material". That sounds like a logical fallacy to me, as disagreeing with one statement does not imply or assume agreement with the other, and I worry that wording the issue in this leading way may lead to false results. I don't like the subjective use of "incidental", the examples given as supposedly incidental, and I think that all this will get us is arguments about whether something is incidental or not. MsBatfish (talk) 11:32, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Qualified Oppose Along with Beyond495 I find "incidental" to be a very subjective term. And I do not believe that it is useful in resolving the underlying issue. Take the example above of the spider image in the Arachnophobia article. Such an image is hardly incidental to the topic, since the phobia is often incited by the visual clues, but it is likely to be inappropriate and there are adequate links to spider where the that image is even more central. The underlying issue is the inappropriate use of NOTCENSORED as a basis for leaving material in an article. If an editor takes the position that there is no place on the Wikipedia where an image would be appropriate, then NOTCENSORED may be a legitimate response. With respect to a given article there may be a host of reasons why given material is more appropriate in a linked article. I think that a better solution would be to provide guidance on the use of the NOTCENSORED policy in content inclusion/exclusion discussions. --Bejnar (talk) 21:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

NOTCENSORED does protect incidental material

  • Support NOTCENSORED indicates that issues related to religion are not considered, and shields substantive images and less substantive images alike. That shield does not create license: the images may be removed for any number of reasons, but they should never be held to a higher standard than images in other articles. Wikipedia is a secular encyclopedia, and takes no notice of religious objections in its editorial policies.—Kww(talk) 01:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I would argue that none of the listed examples are incidental material, the Goatse one especially. If it is an image of the specific subject, then it needs to be included for illustration. The Goatse image is of the specific subject of the website, I see no logical reason why it should be excluded. The pregnancy debate is a bit more iffy, but it is obviously true that a nude photograph more clearly shows what pregnancy looks like than a person who has clothes covering her body. And, as for Muhammad, what exactly is non-representative of images of Muhammad made by historic Muslim artists? I'm actually surprised there's so few images of Muhammad in that article, in comparison to, say, the article on Jesus. SilverserenC 01:17, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per KWW and Silver seren above. Additionally: All "incidental material" should simply be judged by existing policy which already covers numerous reasons to include or remove any type of content on Wikipedia. NOTCENSORED does not, nor (in my recollection) ever has invalidated WP:POV, WP:RS, WP:NOTE, WP:CITE, WP:VERIFY, WP:NOR, WP:BLP or any other part of WP:NOT (or various other policies and guidelines I may have missed). Proper application of all only leaves content that is covered by WP:NOTCENSORED (anything else automagically would be "prohibited" by the other policies). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support To the extent that the reason for wanting to remove the "incidental" material is based on offensiveness, WP:NOTCENSORED does apply. Offensiveness is not relevant, the question should be does the inclusion contribute to the article, or would the article be as good without the image (discounting any arguments to the effect that removal of offensiveness will make the article better. Monty845 02:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This change, which seems to be specifically targeting medieval Islamic art from Persia and the Arab world, is unjustified. Mathsci (talk) 07:27, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support if incidental material is being discussed for removal, it should be based on the merits of whether or not it it improves the article, not whether or not it's too offensive. For example, a picture of a dead woman impaled through her perineum shouldn't be removed from the article on women because it's offensive, but because it doesn't illustrate the subject very well; the article on women describes what living women are and do, so pictures living, healthy women better supplement the article. Conversely, the same picture could fit quite well in the article on the Rape of Nanking, because that could illustrate the events there quite well even though it's incidental (it's just one small part of the entire event, and wouldn't have any more significance than any number of other images). Removing it just because someone says it's offensive would be disruptive because the Rape of Nanking happened, and it's certainly representative of the events. It could be removed for any number of other reasons (quality, another image better supporting the surrounding text, or copyright issues, to name three), but removing it just for being "offensive" is not a valid one. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:58, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I know the picture you are referring to, and I agree with you. But the image is not incidental in rape of Nanking, and is not mere decoration; like certain images of the holocaust, it is an iconic image used by historians to show what happened. It has precedent in reliable sources covering the topic. What we are talking about are images that do not have such precedent, and do not reflect the typical illustration approach in reliable sources. --JN466 17:13, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support With the way it currently reads NOTCENSORED simply allows disclussion of positions that purposefully paint something as being offensive where no offense is. If something can be disproven on a separate policy NOTCENSORED doesn't even come into play since it goes off the policy that it violates. Something strictly removed because a group has considered it offensive is not meritous and leads to censorship of many articles for specific gains of groups in all spectrums. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per kww, SilverSeren and Mathsci. I would add that the entire question is flawed, as it relies on multiple POVs: First that the material is trivial. Second that it is offensive. The result is the circular argument that the material is trivial because it is offensive, and it is offensive because it is trivial. This proposal is an attempt at neutering WP:NOTCENSORED in violation of WP:NPOV. Resolute 16:14, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- NOTCENSORED does (properly) apply to "incidental" material. To censor something is to remove it because some people find it offensive or otherwise objectionable, and I think it is right that Wikipedia would not be swayed by such feelings even if the material is incidental. There might be other reasons to remove "incidental" material -- but we shouldn't do so in deference to a desire for censorship. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:25, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- Although I would support this position because of the proposer of the RFC, NOTCENSORED does and should apply to "trivial images". If an image is really "trivial" or "incidental" images, it should be removed, regardless. However, the images in question are not "incidental", and this would increase the edit wars on the article-that-should-not-be-named. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:53, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is the key to the problem. You are wrong. Wikipedia abounds with trivial, uninformative images, that dress up pages, and say nothing that isn't covered in the text. See the lead image of ADHD. Generally, they're not a problem, often they make the article more appealing. But if you think an image can be removed simply on the basis that it adds nothing to the readers' understanding, we're on different projects. I defy you to remove the lead image of ADHD on the basis that it is trivial. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Support It is and should remain a basic principle that applies to all WP content, The attempt to remove so-called incidental material from its protection is an excellent illustration of the slippery slope in action: try to find opportunities for gradually removing the protection. Many have been proposed, and the only safe course is to reject every one of them. As pointed out above, his is a particularly poorly thought out one, because of the additional slipperiness of the words used. DGG ( talk ) 00:29, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The proposal appears to be "Wikipedia is not censored, except when it is." Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so remove any content if it's truly unencyclopedic, whether images or text or whatever. But be prepared to be reverted, defend your actions on the talk page, and accept consensus whether or not it's on your side. If somebody in that conversation invokes NOTCENSORED spuriously, say so. This is the process we have now, and I see no reason to change it. Lagrange613 17:15, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with reservations As the WMF term "least astonishment" is a teeny bit vague, and I think that is the key issue. Collect (talk) 12:28, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support . If a policy restricts content, in my view, it should only do so to preserve truth (not to sound too grandiose). No number of sources calling some piece of media "incidental" to a given topic will conclusively establish it as "incidental." If we rewrite NOTCENSORED to explicitly not protect so-called "incidental" media, we will, in effect, condone OR.Divergentgrad (talk) 18:44, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • SupportI don't see the alternative as workable as it relies too much on an agreement about what is incidental. Not censored and irrelevant should be two different inquiries, although, they can under certain contextual circumstances inform one another. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:18, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this. The main argument of the opposition seems to be that the current reading is too vulnerable to wikilawyering by POV pushers, however I fear that phrasing such as "little or no value" is much more vulnerable by far. JORGENEV 00:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support more or less. It doesn't protect irrelevant material (like random penis vandalism), but "it's offensive" is a very weak argument for removing a relevant image. The point for NOTCENSORED is to remove the hecklers veto not just limit it to close cases. Eluchil404 (talk) 03:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support per kww. Hobit (talk) 00:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support. There should be no incidental material on Wikipedia anyway; anything that is here should be here for a reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.166.50 (talk) 18:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • NOTCENSORED protects all our content in principle without exception. however, that does not imply that a casuistic approach is ruled out; rather, it is (should be) recommended to balance out our competing values in response to every single case. that includes the appropriate representation of the topic "as such" in the article and the (known) reader-expectations as well as our longstanding principles & pillars & practices as (curatorial) community. trying to define an abstract device (as proposed here) to combat the problem will not help; value conflicts are not forcefully & reasonable addressable in this way, regards --Jan eissfeldt (talk) 11:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Not censored applies equally to all content. Images that add no value to articles should be (and normally are) removed for being irrelevant, regardless of whether anybody finds it offensive or not. Thryduulf (talk) 13:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your first sentence is a simple statement of the status quo. Your second is false. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Purely decorative materials should generally be removed, whether offensive or not. Material that adds non-redundant educational value should generally be included, whether offensive or not. It may be the case that the value provided is small (or "incidental"), but it may be value that no substitute image or text could as capably provide. The layout of images, and distribution of images among articles, should also be driven primarily by the desire to inform. If there are multiple choices for an image, and some are equally (or more) informative while also being less offensive to some readers, there's no reason not to prefer the less offensive one. Dcoetzee 02:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your first sentence addresses purely decorative material but this proposal is about material related to the topic, but of little or no educational value. Rainbows and butterflies illustrating Happiness would be purely decorative, because they're not related to the topic. The lead image of ADHD is related to the topic but has no educational value so is incidental. Try to remove that image from ADHD purely on the basis that it is of no educational value. So, though WP:IUP says images should improve the readers' understanding of the topic, in practice it is ignored all over the project, and such images constantly receive local support for retention, because they look nice. No one's really bothered by that lead image at ADHD. I mention it because it undermines your assertion that "we don't/shouldn't have incidental images."
Problems arise when such an image is also controversial, depending on who's being offended or harmed of course. Sufferers were offended by a picture of a little boy playing up in class as the lead image of ADHD. After long discussion this totally, totally, totally uninformative offensive image was retained, but as a major concession to the feelings of patients, it was moved down the page. This is the kind of behaviour the proposal is aimed at addressing. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support If there's a reason for material to be present, then it should be present, even if it causes offense. If there's no reason for it to be present, then it shouldn't be around anyway - unneeded images are a potential problem for users with limited connections of various varieties (including limited sensory connections, for someone using a screen reader). Allens (talk) 03:47, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"If there's no reason for it to be present, then it shouldn't be around anyway". You're right about utterly irrelevant images. But for every article or section there are thousands of images that have some connection to the topic. When an offensive image is connected to the topic but not important for understanding, should it be replaced by an inoffensive image that is equally marginally relevant, should it be deleted if no inoffensive equivalent can be found, or should it remain, regardless of its minimal value and offensiveness? That's what this question is about: images with "a reason to be present" but a weak one. Wikipedia abounds with such images. See the lead of ADHD and Pain. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:05, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Incidental images should be dealt with on an individual per-article basis. There should be no specific ruling separating incidental images that are inoffensive to all people from incidental images that are offensive to as few as one person standing up and saying so. Binksternet (talk) 16:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support NOTCENSORED should cover every aspect of the encyclopedia. That doesn't mean that there is a blank check on allowing incidental images, only that offense of a religion or the like should never be part of the discussion. Noformation Talk 20:09, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I support NOTCENSORED as currently written and currently interpreted. Carrite (talk) 18:30, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This entire RFC is pretty clearly another attempt at end-run around consensus on the Muhammed Pictures question, I add. There has needed to be a topic ban here, there still needs to be a topic ban here, ArbCom needs to take the case and get it done. Carrite (talk) 18:44, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

To clarify Ludwigs2's questions, as the results will need to be applied uniformly, here is a short list of other articles that this will apply to:

This makes the questions more representative of the impact. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:34, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thing is, most of those other articles you're talking about have images which are independently notable, and those images are a part of how those people are perceived. Muhammad is unusual in that there isn't a rich artistic tradition of depiction, and the images we're using for the article are fairly obscure. Including a couple isn't ridiculous, there is an artistic history there, but it's nothing like Orthodox icons or the fact that a

disproportionate number of paintings of women with babies are Madonna and Child. One size does not fit all. SDY (talk) 03:31, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, the Metropolitan Museum of Art disagrees with you. So does the Kunsthistorisches Museum. Guess which I find more notable? Your opinion, or theirs? And if we were to judge by policies and guidelines, which would I *have* to choose as a more reliable source - you or them? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 03:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
At any rate, this is exactly what I didn't want to do, which is make this RfC a complete rehash of the Muhammad debate. I completely disagree with you, but this isn't the time or place for that discussion. SDY (talk) 03:46, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It IS the Muhammad debate - and that's not my fault: he wrote it, not me. Did you even read his RfC? It asks (paraphrased, but accurately), "since the images are of no value, shouldn't we change wp:censor so we can remove them?" Did you also fail to notice he is the one who brought up that article? Again, that wasn't me. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 03:50, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Side note (question): You disagree that those two museums (and others, I am sure) have stances on the matter more valid than yours? Is that honestly what you are trying to say? If so, please point me to your notable history book on the matter or something similar. If not, then the question is irrelevant, and I am not sure what you are disagreeing with and would appreciate clarification. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 03:52, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • None of the examples that Ludwigs2 gives are incidental. And please don't modify a RfC after it has started; see moving the goal posts. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:25, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images of the Prophet Muhammad appearing in illuminated manuscripts from Persia and the Arab world are prized items in the Islamic collections of major international museums, such as the Pergamon Museum, the British Library, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Kunsthistorisches Museum, the Hermitage, St Petersburg and the Bibliothèque Nationale de France. Jayen466 could have seen the Shahnameh on display at the Fitzwilliam Museum in 2010-2011 with the second plate from this celebrated manuscript containing a veiled image of the Prophet Muhhamad. [2] I am not sure this particular image from the British Library could be described as deeply shocking, unrepresentative or uneducational. The four caliphs who had their names erased from the manuscript might have been shocked. Mathsci (talk) 14:29, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, such images are prized for their rarity. None of these museums assert that pictures like this hang in mosques or people's homes, are a customary illustration in Islamic texts, or are in any way representative of mainstream religious art in the Islamic tradition. Islamic religious art has taken a completely different direction to religious art in other cultures, as a look into any book or encyclopedia article on it will tell you. ("For practical purposes, representations are not found in religious art, although matters are quite different in secular art. Instead there occurred very soon a replacement of imagery with calligraphy and the concomitant transformation of calligraphy into a major artistic medium." Encyclopaedia Britannica, Islamic Arts, Macropaedia, Vol. 22, p. 76.) --JN466 16:29, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wikipedia is closer to that museum than it is a mosque or an individual's home. given we are an institution intended to collect and share knowledge, I think you have just added a fine argument for why Wikipedia should retain the images. Resolute 16:49, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On fa.wp, the consensus seems to have been that the images should not be excluded because this amounts to suppressing an important aspect of Islamic history and culture. --FormerIP (talk) 17:13, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
From what I understand, this was a golden age in Persian culture, universally recognized in the academic world. From his self-description on en.wkipedia.org, Jayen466 has no expertise in Islamic art. Given that, it's hard to know why he is making such bold assertions. Could it be just some form of WP:GAME? Mathsci (talk) 21:58, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Don't be daft, Mathsci. Iran is a Shiite country, and it's tolerant of figurative depictions of Muhammad in a way the majority Sunni tradition is not. If you look at the Turkish and especially the Arabic Muhammad articles, you'll find a lot of useful, culturally iconic imagery that we don't feature. --JN466 07:26, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd ask for clarification of this. It seems to imply "Iran is an Islamic country - but their interpretation of Islam is wrong, so we can discount them". I'm sure that was not your intent, but when you imply that because they are tolerant of such - but Sunni tradition isn't, it's hard to see anything else as a reason. I've watched similar wars on and off Wikipedia from various sects of Christianity - some going so far as to claim that other sects weren't really Christianity. Obviously, we can't take sides in that either - nor should we evaluate which of these are "the true Islam". So, please elucidate. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:02, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The description on the website of the Fitzwilliam Museum of the Book of Kings has a more detailed commentary than you have given of the page in the illuminated manuscript depicting the veiled Prophet Muhammad that I mentioned elsewhere. You have actively campaigned on this very issue on fr.wikipedia.org (fr:Discussion Wikipédia:Sondage/Installation d'un Filtre d'image) and are currently also airing your views on wikipedia review. Issues like this have arisen in real life and various experts on Islamic art seem not to agree with your stance. As a recent example, Thomas P. Campbell, director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, said in June about the Museum's decision to display images of the Prophet in the new Islamic gallery: “We hope that it does not become a lightning-rod issue. These are not 20th-century cartoons setting out to be confrontational. They’re representative of a great tradition of art. ... We could duck [this issue], but I don’t think it would be the responsible thing to do. Then we’d just be accused of ducking it.” [3] Mathsci (talk) 21:28, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Surely an art exhibition, designed to showcase tons of art, is very different from our aim of creating a set of images that aid the understanding of the reader? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 21:47, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It depends. In the case of the Met, I assume that the Islamic collection is designed to educate the US public on aspects of the Islamic world. In addition, I also assume that in post-9/11 New York they are sensitive to causing offense. There are also other accounts, e.g. these essays by Islamic scholars Timothy Winter [4] and Omid Safi [5]. Mathsci (talk) 23:05, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You make it sound as though it were a crime to support something on-wiki that the Wikimedia Foundation Board thinks is a good idea. --JN466 09:54, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had a similar debate with Griswaldo (article on religion or biography on a person who happens to be a religious figure). Besides disagreeing with me, he advised me that I am "sorely out of (my) depth here"[6] and my comments are "that much more ignorant".[7] There are others who seem to hold a similar view (sans the "interesting" comments against those who disagree). This of course means one of the most important basis's for determining how to handle the images is being disputed by others. And thus, this problem will continue since not even a major basis for things can be agreed upon. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • NOTCENSORED, as an element of WP:NOT, ought not "protect content" of any sort. Encyclopedic content should stand on its own merits as such. Unencyclopedic poop should be deprecated on its own demerits as such. NOTCENSORED, as an element of WP:NOT, ought to serve primarily as a warning to readers that they may not like what they see, and secondarily as an admonition to contributors that not liking what you see is not a criterion for inclusion or exclusion. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:41, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: As I said above, I don't like that our only choices here were to say "NOTCENSORED does not protect incidental material" or "NOTCENSORED does protect incidental material". That sounds like a logical fallacy to me, as disagreeing with one statement does not imply or assume agreement with the other, and I worry that wording the issue in this leading way may lead to false results.As for the proposal, I don't like the subjective use of "incidental", the examples given as supposedly incidental, and I think that, if accepted, all this proposal will get us is arguments about whether something is incidental or not. MsBatfish (talk) 11:35, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Maybe it means material that causes a lot of incidents. --FormerIP (talk) 01:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FormerIP: Exactly - which is what Kww just said above you. ;-) Smile Ludwigs2, this may be a joke. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:25, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would define incidental material as material that adds practically no educational value to an article, but is just being included because it is related to the subject. All those examples of "non-representative" artwork in the comments section are far from incidental. Monty845 02:39, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree, but even if you define incidental that way, who gets to decide whether something adds any value or not? We would likely just get more arguing over whether a particular item added value to an article. MsBatfish (talk) 11:39, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed: I added a comment above to show the true effect, even though the goals may be to censor only those particular articles. The RfC is biased in implying, from the start, that there is no value to the images. But that was expected (which is why on the Muhammad Images talk page, we wouldn't agree to this RfC proposal). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:42, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is this, an RfC on if we've stopped beating our wives? Ludwigs loaded the RfC question, i.e. "That being said, does NOTCENSORED also protect controversial content that adds little or no value to the article?" He has staked a position at Talk:Muhammad/images that has garnered precious little support, that images of Muhammed are of no value to the article. Tarc (talk) 03:31, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The point of this is to allow discussion about whether material is incidental or not. There's no hard and fast rule; I trust editors can work it out. however, we need to stop the use of nontcensored as a hard and fast rule that protects every image no matter how stupid it might be.
Frankly, I'm just tired of trying to discuss this issue and getting jumped on by fanatics who have their teeth sunk into NOTCENSORED. it just produces a whole lot of dumb arguments. --Ludwigs2 15:30, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you're tired of discussing the issue, feel free to find something else to do. The principle of "not censored" is perfectly applicable to content that religious fundamentalism wants to remove from the project. All this is is an endaround a consensus that you do not like. Tarc (talk) 19:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ludwigs2: This is not about whether the material is incidental or not. You imply as fact that it is, and ask if it should be removed under policy. And the underlying reasons are once again because you believe we should adhere to religious beliefs.[8][9][10] Each time you try to tack on whatever handy rationale you think might appease some - but the one consistency is you wish (as you've stated) all images to be removed[11] to not offend/to honor religious beliefs. Oh, and this time I provided diffs to your words. So, don't bother wasting your time claiming I'm attacking you or misportraying your motives (or I'll add a half dozen more diffs to each). ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:05, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Defining incidental

SDY had a good question about what counts as "incidental" material. Let's start at one extreme, and see if we can walk back to a reasonable definition:

Imagine that the article is Automobile, in a section about different types of vehicles. An editor wants to replace an existing picture showing a sports car with another picture showing a similar sports car with a naked woman walking past it (e.g., perhaps the snapshot was taken at a nudist facility).

Can we all agree that:

  1. such an image would count as potentially offensive material for the purposes of NOTCENSORED;
  2. that the nudity serves no educational purpose (for that article); and
  3. the image deserves no special protection under NOTCENSORED.

Does anyone disagree? Does anyone think that NOTCENSORED requires us to prefer the image that happens to contain both a nude woman and a sports car over the image that shows a sports car but no humans? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:05, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is obvious, yes. But I think that as we "work backward," we will restrict ourselves to only some lines of thinking and not others. We can't hope to cover all possible shades of gray, and certainly not from all perspectives. I don't think we can expect to define "incidental" material for all topics, all at once, since really it is up to an expert on a given topic to decide whether something is incidental. In the case of the car, I'm sure everyone would agree you need do no original research to decide the nude woman adds nothing to your understanding of automobiles. But when it comes to our famous example above, it appears that, depending on the expert whose work you consult, certain cartoons will be declared "incidental" or not, and so it would be impossible to declare something incidental without doing some level of so-called "original research." Divergentgrad (talk) 18:53, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Was this contribution irrelevant? I feel my idea has been ignored. If my point is no good, it would at least be educational for me to know why. Divergentgrad (talk) 23:34, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WhatamIdoing, all other things about those two theoretical pictures being equal, it is simple enough to choose the picture that illustrates the subject best. You don't need any policy changes for that; just read Wikipedia:IMAGE#Pertinence and encyclopedic nature. ¶ Here's a tougher example. Assume we only have one rare automobile picture (say a prototype) which has bikini clad (or even topless) girl centrally posing with it (so that clipping her out of the image would be noticeable to the viewer). What would you prefer our putative policy on incidentally objectionable material recommend in this case? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:59, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

ASCII, the issue here is that we occasionally do have people say that removing such an image is pure censorship, even when we have unobjectionable options available. That's the problem Ludwigs is trying to deal with: a needlessly offensive picture, being defended as something that requires more than the ordinary reasons to replace it with something else—as in, it's not good enough to just use your editorial judgment and treat it like any other picture, e.g., the way you would decide between a photograph of the car vs a photograph of the car with a clothed person.
The WMF will generally not allow people to post pictures of a topless girl in that instance. Did you perhaps mean a topless adult woman? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:11, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Re: "we occasionally do have people say that removing such an image is pure censorship. That's the problem Ludwigs is trying to deal with". Absolutely not. Just look at the examples Ludwigs2 gave: Muhammad depictions, etc. His idea of incidental is very different from mine or yours. And let's not engage in hair splitting here. I used "girl" generically; assume she is of legal age for porn shoots in Florida. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:16, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, WhatamiIdoing, that's not what Ludwigs2 is attempting to address at all. If he was, I might even try to figure out a way to support wording that would. What he is attempting to do is incorporate religious sensitivity in Wikipedia editorial policy. That's a very bad thing to be fighting for, and I can't foresee any time where I would support it.—Kww(talk) 21:21, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Kww - you really have no idea what I'm trying to do, and what you just said was patently idiotic nonsense. I swear...
Defining 'incidental material' is fairly easy in principle (though as I write this I'm beginning to think that 'gratuitous' is a better word):
  • Images of things which are not described in the article text are incidental
  • Images which can be moved, removed or replaced without changing the meaning of a section of the article are incidental
So, if your car-with-nude-model image is the only image we have and we deem it necessary for the article to have an image of the car, then the image is protected; but if we have another image without a nude model, then the first image can be replaced without changing the meaning of the article, so it becomes incidental. that doesn't mean it necessarily will be removed, only that NOTCENSORED does not apply and we can have a discussion about removing it.
Kww's meaningless noise aside, the point here is not to remove every controversial image that doesn't meet some preset criteria, but merely place a lower-limit on the application of NOTCENSORED so that we don't get tangled in these pissy wars over tangential images that really don't help build the article much at all. We can solve these kinds of disputes IF we can talk about them; the goal here is to preclude editors from beating us over the head with policy to keep those conversations from happening. --Ludwigs2 21:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Given the origins of this discussion, I don't think Kww's comment counts as "meaningless noise" at all. Perhaps you're simply not the right person to drive this one forward. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:24, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree with that definition of incidental. Applying that definition to Obama, the infobox picture of the president, File:Official portrait of Barack Obama.jpg would be incidental to the article, as the sitting for that photo is not discussed in the article, and it could be removed without changing the meaning of the article. Any image that is REALLY incidental should be removed for not adding to the article, regardless of censorship. Monty845 22:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ludwigs2, sometimes it is hard to take you seriously. Are you denying that you consider religious objections to be worthy of consideration by Wikipedia editors? Have I not been explicit in saying that I think to do so is fundamentally wrong? What part of my "meaningless noise" said anything much different?—Kww(talk) 22:53, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Kww: I will AGF that you actually believe that statement. however, as I have said many, many, many times, this is not about religion for me (any more than the same argument on Pregnancy or Goatse.cx was about nudity). For me, this is about NPOV and ethics: about not using images that offend out readers without some good encyclopedic reason to do so. Frankly, I am baffled by the fact that you don't instantly accept this. It wouldn't surprise me more if we went out ballroom dancing and you start flailing around like you're in a mosh pit. I've got nothing against moshing, mind you, but trying to carry that 'if you get hurt you shouldn't have come here' attitude into wikipedia's editing practices is bizarre. or so it seems to me.
I don't see that we lose anything that matters to the encyclopedia by showing a little common courtesy where we can. you seem to see common courtesy as some infectious form of radical censorship. that position is just such a complete non-sequitor to me that I cannot even fathom why you would hold. maybe if you could explain that to me we could get somewhere. --Ludwigs2 23:27, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the religious objections of a billion Muslims and the religious objections of three remote tribespeople are precisely and absolutely equal, because popularity has nothing to do with whether an objection is valid, and neither side's objection has any merit that a secular encyclopedia can evaluate. Taking one into account without taking the other into account is morally abhorrent. The only way to treat them both equally is to disregard them both, and that is precisely what we have to do. By any measure that is relevant to an encyclopedia, the images of Mohammed are not controversial at all. I'm not worried that your stance will result in massive censorship, I'm worried that your stance will result in highly selective censorship favoring some large groups, which is a more damaging result by far.—Kww(talk) 23:36, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
and there we have the central flaw in your belief structure, where you say: "the only way to treat them both equally is to disregard them both." You've committed yourself to a scorched earth policy that denies the interests and feelings of our readers, but for what purpose? I could see this kind of rigid resistance if - say - we somehow had an actual life-drawing of Muhammad. Heck, if we had an actual image of the prophet I'd be pitching in right beside you against those billion Muslims. But we're talking about non-representative artwork from a particular historical period that is of no direct relevance to this particular article - what's in here that is so important that it requires this intensity of resistance?
You and I both know the answer to that: you are standing on a principle. it's a good principle, too - wikipedia should not be censored - but like any good thing too much of it is bad. If you cannot draw the line anywhere except "absolutely not, never" then you condemn yourself and the rest of us to endless amounts of pointless fighting. On the other hand, if you show a little common courtesy on cases like this (where the gain to the page is so minor that it's really not worth it) you will find that it becomes easier to stand up for the principle where it really matters. --Ludwigs2 00:04, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"You've committed yourself to a scorched earth policy that denies the interests and feelings of our readers" - The interests and feelings of which readers? Do you actually think they all feel the same way? That they all feel the same as you do? If that was the case, why do you think you are finding so much resistance? Besides, as I have pointed out repeatedly, "we" have already shown more than enough common courtesy. We have agreed to more than enough compromises. That you choose to ignore these facts reveals that negotiating with you is worthless, because you have shown that you will not accept anything other than exactly what you want. Resolute 00:10, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In the end, principles are the only thing worth fighting for.—Kww(talk) 00:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Resolute: You keep mistaking me for someone who wants to achieve a particular result, when in fact I am someone who wants to have an open discussion. I disagree with your assessment (I don't believe this is a matter of 'compromise' but rather a matter of 'encyclopedic balance'. If the images don't help the article at all (as I believe) then why would we compromise with someone who wants to use them? You believe they have value, prove it to me, and then we'll start talking balance. And please note, I already suggested to you how the images could be retained meaningfully (with a section dedicated to discussing them). You chose to reject that approach, so now you have to justify their value on your own.
@Kww: that is something I can agree with - I have my own principles, as I have said repeatedly. You want to eliminate the principles I stand on; I only want to place some moderate restrictions on yours. who's being more reasonable? --Ludwigs2 01:29, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Giving weight to religious sensitivities is not a moderate restriction on my principles, Ludwigs2. It's gutting them. If we were having a "reasonableness" contest, I'm confident I would prevail.—Kww(talk) 01:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Really!?! let's have one then - how shall we set the rules? I'll skip the fact that you've (again) implied my position is religious. As far as I can see the two extremes in this battle are (A) denying all 'sensibilities' (as you put it) and (Z) giving in to all 'sensibilities'. You're firmly ensconced at extreme A, while I'm on the Aish side of the median (remember, all I'm asking is that we allow discussion about these sensibilities for images that are not clearly necessary for the article). how is your position more reasonable than mine? --Ludwigs2 03:03, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ludwigs, we'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who is less reasonable than you, as you persist in the same intellectual dishonesty every time you post. You have no right to claim "not clearly necessary for the article" as if it were fact. Many editors here have opined that the images are quite clearly necessary. You argue from the tiny, tiny, minority POV that thy are not. Tarc (talk) 03:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
ok, that just made me laugh. Tarc, you're losing your character assassination touch. I'd say you need to practice more, but that's clearly not true. having a rough day? --Ludwigs2 03:19, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh, the famous river defense. You've tried to hang your hat on various ways to save the poor Muslims from having to look at pictures they don't like...WMF resolutions that don't apply, broadsides against WP:NOTCENSORED, "incidental images", argumentum ad Jimboem...and not a single one has really set the world on fire. I can imagine the frustration when someone just knows they're right and the world is a bunch of blind buffoons (never happened to me personally, but I have an awfully good imagination), but that doesn't really excuse making demonstrably false accusations here. I told you awhile ago that image removal would simply never happen; here we are, no closer to your goal. Isn't it about time to wind this down? Tarc (talk) 03:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ridiculous… --Ludwigs2 03:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ludwigs2, one part of this is getting beyond frustrating: what word do you want me to use for taking the religious objections of Muslims into account? I don't care what your religious beliefs are, and I haven't accused you of attempting to preserve your own, but I don't see how you can argue about millions of upset Muslims on one hand and then deny that you want to modify Wikipedia guidelines to take their religious beliefs into account on the other.—Kww(talk) 05:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Kww: it doesn't make a lot of difference which word you use - 'sensibilities' is fine, 'offense' is fine. I would prefer if you avoid personalization - and religion - and merely talked about controversial material, but... the problem is not with the word chosen, but with the efforts to squelch whatever-it-is in such an absolutist and uncompromising manner. You've decided that every personal and cultural preference that disagrees with your personal and cultural preferences is ipso facto an act of censorship, insist that such are not to be allowed any leeway of any sort under any circumstances, and are willing to fight tooth-and-nail over the most trivial manifestations of it in order to enforce you viewpoint. To me you look no different than the people you oppose, even down to your unceasing efforts to assert your extreme position as a norm.
I don't care one whit about religion: and by that I mean that I'm not here to support fundamentalist forms of Islam or the kind of militant secularism that you're pushing. I'm trying to get you all to settle down and use some common sense. You're locked into a battle over an issue that is of no consequence to that article whatsoever and making worlds of trouble over something that will not improve the encyclopedia in any significant way. it's ridiculous, and I don't 'get' why you don't see how ridiculous it all is. --Ludwigs2 15:04, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We are using common sense; that you disagree with others does not mean that they are being illogical. For most here, common sense informs that we do not take into account a religious-based opposition to image portrayal. Removing the images deprives others of information about the subject; it is simply not an acceptable trade-off to appease a religious concern and short-shrift everyone else. I realize that this is yet another tangent you disagree on, i.e. images are unimportant to the article, but you are in the clear minority on that point-of-view as well. Tarc (talk) 16:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no mistaking you, Ludwigs. You want a specific result, and we're now into week two or three of your inability to accept that you won't get it. As to your suggestion of a depictions section, first, the argument that I (personally) reject it is unfounded. Second, the very fact that you are not arguing an equal lack of value to the calligraphy and other means of depicting Muhammad, and that you are not arguing as vehemently that they do not belong in any spot but a depictions section reveals the hypocrisy of your position. This is not, and never has been, about the "value" an image has. This has always been about images you don't like. I don't need to prove to you that the images have value because you have closed your mind and have shown you will move the goalposts as far as you need. I need only for the community to support my view, an consensus remains with me. Resolute 15:03, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Images which can be moved, removed or replaced without changing the meaning of a section of the article are incidental. This would be impossible to make sense of or apply in practice. Any image in an article contributes to its meaning. This is true even in the case of images that are unencyclopaedic. A childish drawing of a giant spunking cock in the article on Robert Kilroy-Silk, for example, ought to be removed if someone is really insisting. But there is no denying that the meaning of the article would thereby be changed. And the idea that an image is incidental if it can reasonably be moved within the article just seems odd. --FormerIP (talk) 22:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FormerIP, Monty: you are both thinking in exaggerated terms. We do not need NOTCENSORED to make the argument that there should be an image of Obama on his article - whether or not you consider the image 'incidental', there is no real reason to remove it. This whole discussion only applies to 'controversial' images where there is that added factor to be taken into consideration. And if a controversial image adds nothing to the topic of the article (what does a 'giant spunking cock' have to do with RKS?) then removing it does not change the meaning of the article in any real way. remember, 'meaning' in this sense is determined by its encyclopedic use, not by the personal meanings that editors might attach to the image.
Again, there is no way to make editors use common sense if they do not wish to. however, what we can do is try to keep policy from being used in ways that violate common sense.
Nomoskedasticity: your opinion is ill-considered. If Kww et al can only argue their side of the debate by making up cheap lies about my opinions and attitudes then I can't really stop them, but I can't respect them for it either. I don't mind if they criticize my behavior - sometimes my behavior is quite worthy of criticism, this I know, so that's justified - but their efforts at Geraldo-style psychologism are seriously worthy of contempt. if they cannot be sincere enough to deal with me fairly, then what use are they except to fill the page with bile?
I don't care who takes the lead on this - anyone who wants to lead, go for it! I'll speak my mind on the issues either way. --Ludwigs2 23:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the Obama picture(s) and "there is no real reason to remove it". But think of the racists and white supremacists! Many of them will surely be offended to see a picture of an African American sitting in the presidential office, signing bills, etc. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 23:21, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And if there are racists and white supremacists who want to make that argument, please, let them. I'll make popcorn and sell tickets. There is nothing in policy that would support that position, and quite a lot that could be leveraged to oppose it.
You really don't get it , ASCII - I'm happy to let anyone make a content argument on wikipedia (safe in the assumption that policy and editorial judgment can handle whatever weirdness gets thrown at us). what I'm trying to do here is forestall a quirk of policy that is leveraged to suppress content arguments. We don't need NOTCENSORED to protect that image of Obama, because we have far better arguments that will do the job. We also don't need editors using NOTCENSORED to plaster controversial images wherever they like for no readily apparent reason. discrimination, please. --Ludwigs2 23:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you put it that way, I have to ask you: are you personally offended by depictions of Muhammad in that Wikipedia article? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 01:00, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why would that matter? But in fact, I'm not personally offended: I'm not a dualist, so religious squabbles over iconography strike me as silly. But by the same token (that I'm not a dualist) I see no particular reason to snub religious beliefs. Frankly, I think all religions are charmingly daft; I love the ritual and respect the beliefs, and think that all religions would be wonderful assets to humanity except that some people get so OCD about defending or attacking them. it's even worse now that secularism has become so prominent - hard-nosed secularists are just as bad in their way as religious zealots.
I got into this dispute because I assumed that people simply hadn't thought through the ramifications of their acts, and that a bit of discussion and refocusing would unwind the nonsense and let common sense happen. One of these days I'll learn better than to expect things like that, and on that day I suppose I'll leave the project forever. --Ludwigs2 01:19, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On an argument that has gone on for years the assumption is people don't understand ramifications of what they are doing? The only ramification I can identify is that people feel offended by things they see on based on religious grounds. The pictures are perfectly suited and hold the same value as any other religious leaders in similar circumstances. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:38, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
With one possible exception, I think we all have a pretty good grasp of "irrelevant" at this point in the discussion: If some kid spams a penis picture—or a butterfly picture, or a picture of Queen Elizabeth—into Algebra, we revert it as vandalism and go about the rest of today's work. We don't say the butterfly picture is irrelevant and should be removed, but the equally off-topic penis picture has to stay so we can show off what a cool, not-censored kind of place Wikipedia is.
But let's get back to the (at least mostly) relevant pictures: Would anyone here actually defend an image of a sports car with a nude person standing next to it, if an image without a nude person is available? Does anyone think that choosing the zero-nudity-containing image actually violates this policy? (I didn't think this was such a difficult question, but nobody seems to be willing to answer it...) WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:28, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No. That doesn't have much relationship to the issues being discussed, though.—Kww(talk) 05:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it doesn't have much relationship to the example that dominates this discussion, but I think Mohammed is a relatively poor example for the actual question, which is how we should address the over-invocation of NOTCENSORED by people who are trying to include "controversial content that adds little or no value to the article" (=the words from the RFC question).
So what counts "controversial content that adds little or no value to the article"? You and I agree that a car with a naked person standing next to it provides nothing educational to the reader (on the subject of automobiles, vs an image without a naked person).
Can we fairly generalize that particular example to a statement along the lines of "Pictures including naked humans, when the article is not about nudity, sexuality, or medical conditions" (and possibly other categories; feel free to suggest expansion)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note recent addition to the offensive-material guideline

[12]. Not discussed it seems, but probably not very controversial. With 500 guidelines on the English Wikipedia, the advantage is always on the legislator's side when it comes to finding something that isn't watched much. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 12:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a constructive addition. It makes the essential point (we don't practice censorship) while cautioning against abuse of "we don't practice censorship". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:53, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd tend to agree. I think all in all our policies and guidelines and such work quite well, the problem is when problematic editors try to make the policy fit where it isn't meant to, or use to to address every little thing every one may possibly find offensive. Tarc (talk) 13:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It looks sensible to me. It might need a little copy editing, but the point is valid, and well illustrated. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How to end this so we can all move on?

I've been trying to think of a way to get some sort of closure to this discussion (there have been over 1200 revisions to this page this month, nearly as in the whole of 2010 [13]), and it's clear that the "discussion" is just going round in circles with no new arguments being presented.

  • I don't see anything that raises to the level of ArbCom
  • I suspect a user conduct RfC would result in more IDHT, and Ludwigs isn't the only user who hasn't stopped beating the dead horse
  • I can't see many admins wanting to take the time necessary to read through everything that's being said, and I'm not confident that a closure of that sort would be heard either.
  • Mediation has been explicitly rejected for being of no benefit in a situation like this.
  • Walking away would be nice, but I suspect that would be seen as a victory for tendentious editing.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to proceed? Thryduulf (talk) 23:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to have exhausted the options. The problem is that there's an utter failure of reason and communication on this page. Either we get people to pay attention to reason and communicate honestly (which isn't likely to happen at this point), or we refer it to someone else. Given the scope of this problem, maybe we should try a novel approach. get the two sides to independently create revised versions of the NOTCENSORED passage (the other side can use the current one if they like), along with rationalizations for why it's needed, and then toss it up for a system-wide RfC (not just a standard policy RfC, which would only gather the people already here, but one of those 'everybody's invited' banners that gets thrown up on everyone's page).
either that, or we could ask for binding mediation - I believe there's a provision for that through ArbCom, separate from the normal behavioral cases? --Ludwigs2 00:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'll predict how this will end. Folks trying to get this change over the objections of the community will finally be topic banned. I give it 2 months. ICANTHEARTHAT has rarely been matched in terms of raw character count. Hobit (talk) 00:39, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
charming, typical, but ultimately unhelpful. --Ludwigs2 00:47, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Arbcom isn't going to be one sided, Arbcom will come down on anyone who refuses to engage in some form of dispute resolution and who also refuses to walk away.
You guys (on both sides) can decide either to engage in dispute resolution, or walk away or suffer the consequences at Arbcom. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 01:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Then perhaps you and Ludwigs should start walking? This is a settled issue as far as most people here are concerned, there nothing for Arbcom to do over feelings being hurt over a failed RfC proposal. We have lengthy discussions here on the matter, there's nothing else to do. Tarc (talk) 01:06, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to walk away until the discussion is taken to some sort of dispute resolution. Denying that some form of dispute resolution is appropriate will simply be used as evidence against you.
60% is nowhere near enough to justify no further dispute resolution without significantly higher levels of evidence presented and even then some form of compromise would almost certainly be required. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 01:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Eraserhead: why don't we just open the mediation case? I'd be fine with that. most likely people will refuse to participate, but then at least it's on record that they refused to participate. --Ludwigs2 01:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would rather wait for this RFC to be formally closed, or at least a few days - that will also give everyone an opportunity to calm down. But if someone else opens a case in the meantime I won't reject it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 01:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Um, it actually was meant to be productive. I'll try again. I only see three possible outcomes: A) consensus changes B) you all give up on trying to make the change (at least for a while) or C) you all get topic banned. Ludwigs, could you let us know what needs to happen before you accept that you aren't going to get a change here and so stop trying? Hobit (talk) 01:16, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hobit: I've told people that multiple times. I'll give in the moment someone offers a convincing reason why the position I'm advancing is improper, incorrect, or unworkable. I respond to reason, but never to nonsense. I don't have any interest in threats, warnings, dire predictions, unfounded claims of consensus, personal insults, declamations of fact, insinuations about my character or motivations, or any of the other silliness that makes up the bulk of what people say to me. Is that sufficient? And please, no more prognosticating, unless you're enjoying the role of Cassandra. --Ludwigs2 03:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We have already explained why what you're advancing is improper, incorrect, or unworkable. Whether you accept it or not is not something that anyone here is terribly concerned with. Tarc (talk) 04:05, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tarc, no offense, but the reasoning you've offered is so unconvincing that it's almost not worth talking about. To be convinced of your view, the way you've expressed it, I would have to believe that all religion is fundamentalism, and that all circumspection is prudishness. That wouldn't convince a child. You're welcome to try again, but you don't seem to want to. Now, if all you're going to do is sit there and try troll me… --Ludwigs2 04:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What part of "not...terribly concerned with" did you find confusing? Not a single bit that I have ever posted here was an effort to convince you of anything, as that isn't what we're here for. From this point forward, we're continuing on with the status quo of not-censored policy. You have failed to sway an appreciable number of editors with your position. What you, individually, feel about what I have to say is irrelevant. Tarc (talk) 05:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tarc, ridiculous. So far as I can tell, no one elected you Lord and Master of this policy, and your continued efforts to claim that title are (frankly) boring. Why don't you go somewhere and wait until you have something meaningful to say, rather than pompously asserting that everything is going to happen just the way you want it to. yeesh… --Ludwigs2 06:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For me it will involve some form of serious dispute resolution. The Muhammad issue has been problematic since at least I raised it (briefly) over a year ago, if not significantly longer.
If it goes to some form of serious mediation and I don't get my way that's not a big issue as far as I'm concerned. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 01:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Could you clarify? TI don't think this going to be able to go to mediation--too many folks involved to get everyone to agree to start. So ArbCom or bust or is there something else you'd accept? Ludwigs, how about you? Hobit (talk) 01:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Arbcom won't take the case until there is a serious attempt to resolve the matter without them. Until we have attempted to follow through with some other form of serious dispute resolution that point hasn't been reached.
If people refuse to either walk away or engage with formal mediation (or another serious form of dispute resolution) then that will be a really simple piece of evidence that can be used against them at the then inevitable Arbcom case. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 01:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When Ludwig says "...there's an utter failure of reason and communication on this page", he is obviously talking about those he disagrees with. Surely it's a personal attack. HiLo48 (talk) 01:05, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you think this is an issue raise it at Mediation and/or Arbcom. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 01:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Part of the problem I think is that we aren't asking what the question is: there are sides that want to fight over how NOTCENSORED is written and should be taken to pursue their personal ideals on WP. I think we need to first state what is the goal. Is it to end endless disputes over images used in articles? Is it to find the right clarity in policy? Or what. Until we know what we're asking, its hard to end the dispute because we have no end goal.
We also need to remember that that Foundation has said their statement along these lines, and thus that's a line we can't cross. That likely needs to be a starting point and not an end point to try to match. --MASEM (t) 01:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why limiting the scope to the two main troublesome articles, pregnancy and Muhammad will help a lot - then it won't be a full policy discussion as anything decided there can be done under WP:IAR if needed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 01:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to try, but DR is for content disputes. This is a disagreement over the application of existing policy, which no DR venue will overturn, or really even be willing to try to, IMO. A centralized RfC is really your last gasp of a chance. Tarc (talk) 01:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Taking the two most controversial articles to mediation is not an attempt to change policy as it's well within the scope of WP:IAR. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 01:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really see that as a proposal made in good-faith, then, to take two of your pet peeves to mediation as some sort of trial balloon. We already held an RfC on Muhammad/images this past month, I don't recall if ever got the formalized "this is an RfC" banner atop of it, but for all intents and purposes a very wide-ranging discussion was held over the last 4-5 weeks that amounts to the same thing. And the same thing was found there as we have seen here; no support for image removal based on the vague sensibilities of some Muslims in the world. I've never been to the Pregnancy article and really have no horse in that race, you can do wit that what you like. But either way that goes, it can't be brought back here to try to force changes upon WP:NOT in the general sense. Tarc (talk) 01:39, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There has been no shortage of discussion related to those two articles either. As with here, those hoping to change policy to suit their personal POVs have failed to gain consensus. Resolute 01:42, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, as I see it, this dispute breaks down into the following sub-disputes:
  • criteria of censorship: When is a proposed change to a controversial image a more-or-less normal editing activity and when does it represent censorship?
  • content-value of imagery: How to determine the importance of an image to article content?
  • editorial vs. readers' preferences: When do editorial preferences trump the established cultural preferences of our readership? (note that the obvious answer is 'when they need to', but the criteria for 'needing to' are hotly disputed).
ultimately what we come down to an absolutist vs moderate split on all three points: editors on one side claiming that there are no criteria, there's only censorship, importance and need, while the other side takes a more nuanced view in which discussion of these issues is possible. does that help any? --Ludwigs2 01:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Resolute, that there has been no shortage of discussion is precisely why escalation is appropriate.
@Tarc, if you've made any attempt to follow what I've done on the project you cannot seriously argue this is a pet peeve, I bought it up at Muhammad over a year ago and walked away because I didn't care to pursue it. That it's still a significant unresolved issue makes taking it to some form of dispute resolution entirely appropriate.
Above strong arguments are presented in favour of your position - e.g. what the Met has done for their exhibition, it doesn't mean that some form of dispute resolution isn't appropriate. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 01:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, there is some discussion... but I see 77 comments currently on this page made by the individual pushing this. The horse's carcass has been beaten so badly that he's just bashing the dried blood on the ground at this point. Will going to other forms of DR succeed? I doubt it. Personally, I don't see the point of mediation over a failed proposal just because a couple editors won't drop the stick. ArbCom? Ludwigs already tried that and was told that they don't handle content disputes. And the last time they tried changing policy by fiat, it generated a holy row. The only thing they can touch is behavioural, and really, that's not the best solution for Ludwigs, unless he desires to go out a martyr. Resolute 02:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Unless he desires to go out a martyr." He might just be wanting exactly that.[14] Thryduulf (talk) 03:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm sure I've made more comments than I should (probably ~50 from a brief search) I'm perfectly happy to go along with the result of serious dispute resolution - whatever it is. If Ludwigs doesn't go along with the result of dispute resolution then he will be blocked and/or topic banned. I see no evidence so far that he won't abide by the result - he's been far more positive on dispute resolution than the majority of others who have commented in these latest sections. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 02:08, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What form of DR are you looking for and why? When a proposal fails, it fails. You can try again if it seems like it was a wording problem or something. But in this case, there isn't anything to mediate that I can see. We do changes like this via RfC, and that has failed to create a change. I just don't see this as something mediation can solve--too many parties (all at the RfC) and not even anything to mediate over. Just a "this policy should change" and "no it shouldn't". How do you mediate that? I think the only next step is ArbCom, but I hear that's already been rejected (by ArbCom). I think the only next step is to drop it. Could you clarify exactly what you're looking for and find a venue that would be willing to take this with A) so many folks, B) no agreement by all involved to be involved and C) a proposed change in policy as the locus of the dispute? Hobit (talk) 02:53, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The arbitration request was about the image choice in the Pregnancy and Mohammed articles, and was framed in such a way that strongly characterised it as a content dispute (see [15]). The user conduct and other issues surrounding the RfC on this page have not been the subject of a request (to my knowledge). Thryduulf (talk) 03:11, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I don't object to mediation on the grounds of fearing I'll be found in the wrong or something like that. I object to it because it's not what mediation is for. Mediation is for behavioural disputes between a small number of editors, this is a dispute over two things (1) does Ludwigs2's interpretation of the WP:NOTCENSORED policy have consensus support from the community; and (2) does the proposed change to the WP:NOTCENSORED policy have consensus? All a mediator could do in this circumstance is say "yes" or "no" to these questions, and that is explicitly outside the remit, "MedCom will not arbitrate or adjudicate a dispute". Thryduulf (talk) 03:05, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
well, this isn't doing us all that much good; mediation would be a change of pace, at least...--Ludwigs2 04:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just curious Ludwig. Would anything make you give up? HiLo48 (talk) 05:26, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I answered that already, a few lines before this. and right back at you: would anything make you give up? I've seen no sign of that so far. --Ludwigs2 06:26, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, probably not, but I'm on the side of the status quo, so I have less to prove. With you being the one seeking change, the onus is on you to present a strong case with good will. Leaping around the legalities of Wikipedia is stretching the boundaries of good will. HiLo48 (talk) 06:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf, you aren't really quoting the mediation committees remit. They obviously will not force the issue and will only facilitate discussion - quite rightly. And if certain users don't cooperate then the process won't succeed. However a refusal to cooperate with a serious attempt to resolve this issue (in the scope of Muhammad alone I think at this point, adding pregnancy is too much for one case - and that will need escalating separately) is a conduct issue which can be addressed by the arbitration committee. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • ". I think we need to first state what is the goal. Is it to end endless disputes over images used in articles? Is it to find the right clarity in policy? Or what. Until we know what we're asking, its hard to end the dispute because we have no end goal."
  • Here are the reasons from those supporting this:
  • "Any substantive change to the policy would shift the playing field." Alessandra Napolitano (talk) 03:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • "This would shift the burden: Editors who want to use the images need to show that the images add enough value to the article to offset the detrimental side-effects of using them."--Ludwigs2 21:53, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • etc, etc. Editors here have come in trying to change policy to be able to be more successful in their talk page disputes because they feel WP:NOTCENSORED is too much of a roadblock to overcome to remove irrelevant offensive images. Since it is currently clearly explained in Wikipedia:Offensive material and elsewhere not to do this I can only imagine that these editors here have also tried to remove images based off their being offensive, failed to convince other editors, and now want a policy which makes some sort of condemnation of offensive material instead of allowing it and instructing the discussion to focus on relevancy. If you really want to keep escalating this campaign against offensive material then I won't stop you, but I predict you will be unsuccessful and that you may start self-imploding at some point if you don't just learn to get along with and have productive discussions with other editors.AerobicFox (talk) 07:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I want to go to formal mediation (though I probably could be persuaded that informal mediation is better) to resolve the content dispute around the images in pregnancy and Muhammad. We've used 100k words on this topic on this page alone and ~600k words at Talk:Muhammad. The dispute on Muhammad has been going on for 4 years.
If the discussion has been going on basically continually for 4 years the rules aren't as important. Far more important is to produce some sort of result that everyone can live with.
It very frequently comes up that people say that hard cases don't make policy. This is definitely a hard case. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On the Muhammad article, this so-called content dispute is pretty much one or two users constantly swimming upstream against a consensus that has been solidly against them for four years. They have forum shopped it to at least a half dozen places, and failed every time. And while I am sure you mean well Eraserhead, I suspect everyone else is more than a little tired of the tendentious behaviour of said editor(s). You may think it useful to go to yet another forum to try and push that case, but personally, I think it is just a further waste of everyone's time. Time that would be far better spent building an encyclopedia. Resolute 14:53, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think Resolute hit a very important head right on the nail with this. I suspect that any further attempts at this will be most definitely seen as forum shopping - and that won't go well. In all honesty, with well over a half dozen attempts in just recent times, I'm impressed that nothing else has come of this yet. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:00, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Escalation through the dispute resolution process is how you resolve difficult problems. This is one. Escalation through Wikipedia's dispute resolution process isn't forum shopping. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:30, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It can be when the same issue has been discussed in several places already after the arguments keep getting rejected. The only problem is that a small handful of editors refuse to acknowledge WP:IDHT and WP:DEADHORSE apply to them. Thryduulf (talk) 20:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And such will continue[16] with an effort to group together a force to overturn community consensus and policy. Except, I predict those who had reasonings that were so arbitrarily in violation of policy will now work harder to hide those reasons behind rather inventive uses of policies - as we've seen from one or two earlier. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:03, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, that's looking like an attempt to game the system by creating an activist group. It would be deleted as such if it were in Wikipedia or userspace, but on user talk I don't know what can be done. AN/I? Thryduulf (talk) 21:23, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Horsehockey. Organization of editors according to wikipolitical POVs is a time-honored practice. Consider Wikipedia:WikiProject Inclusion, Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion, Wikipedia:WikiProject Rational Skepticism, Wikipedia:WikiProject Paranormal, and so on. Alessandra Napolitano (talk) 21:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Correct, except in this point, when some motion to change or ignore policy is proposed, it can be pointed out that the support garnered was through canvassing those with only one specific POV. It's a big difference when one specifically targets certain articles. So, have fun with it. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Firstly I don't really see why a discussion on a user's talk page has to follow WP:CANVASS.
  • Secondly if it wasn't there I would have asked for a wider audience to be consulted.
  • Thirdly its an attempt to introduce greater structure.
  • Fourthly with regards to repeated discussions over and over have the majority of discussions been closed by an administrator as "not done"? If not stop complaining, its perfectly legitimate as long as the discussions are productive. "No consensus" and "not done" aren't the same outcome. Stop making the same point when it has been explained as false over and over. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ending this, fo realz

Getting back to the original question, option #5 ("Walking away...") at this point is really the only viable one. Several editors have made proposals, all of which seem to have failed to attract much support. Short of trying to edit war their suggestions in, there's nothing that is going to change within WP:NOT at this time.

Motion to close? Tarc (talk) 06:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would second a motion to close.AerobicFox (talk) 07:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to get an uninvolved administrator to close the RFC that sounds sensible. This doesn't mean that I don't think we need some form of formal mediation over the specific and limited topic of Pregnancy and Muhammad. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see non-binding medication mediation as helpful; there are enough parties that someone would object. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Given the whole problem is editors refusing to accept consensus then non-binding mediation is likely to be as much use as a chocolate teapot is for serving freshly brewed tea. Thryduulf (talk) 09:25, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*I strongly disagree... I've eaten chocolate teapots (and chocolate bunnies and chocolate eggs), and I happen to enjoy them. I'd thus posit they are of greater use. ;-) ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 15:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Then we can see who those editors are, if they exist and enact sanctions on them - just like with every other content dispute. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:58, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mediation isn't about enacting sanctions. Only a community discussion at somewhere like WP:AN/I or the ArbCom can do that. Mediation is about facilitating discussion to bring about consensus. There is consensus against your views and proposals here, I believe from what others have said there is similar consensus at the relevant article talk pages, mediation cannot overturn a consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 12:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mediation will make it blindly obvious who those editors are though, and then Arbcom can sanction them. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I think this is part of the problem. You are seeing this as a discussion about what specific images are or are not appropriate for those articles, it isn't though. It's a discussion about the project-wide policy that applies to every article and every image on those articles, where some editors have used Pregnancy and Muhammad as two examples to illustrate their point. I've not been involved with those articles, but as I understand it your views about what should be there have been rejected. You have since come here to try and get an end-run around that consensus having failed in the attempt to do so via the arbcom. If I read other comments correctly then it has also been rejected at WP:AN/I. Now (or actually about a week ago at least) you can add to that list a failure here as well - your arguments have been rejected.
If you want to go to (in)formal mediation about the images used on a specific article, you need to convince the editors on the talk pages of those articles that it is needed. However, if, as is apparently so, there is a clear consensus rejecting your opinions then mediation wont help you even if you do manage to convince others to get there and have the case accepted (It's more likely than an RfC about this page, but still not likely as there has been discussion productive enough to reach a consensus, even if you don't like the result). We, the editors here, can not (note this is not 'will not') agree to mediation about the content of those articles. Thryduulf (talk) 09:25, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My ideas have only been rejected here if the discussion is closed as "not done" if it is closed as "no consensus" which seems likely that doesn't mean my ideas have been rejected.
A large portion of this discussion isn't really about the general case - its about the specific cases I have mentioned and getting them out the way means we can have a far more sensible general case discussion.
FWIW the reason this case was rejected by the arbitration committee, where I first got involved, is because they don't handle content disputes - and only handle conduct disputes. So far this has been a content dispute, and thus the mediation committee is the appropriate venue. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:58, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of whether the discussion here was focused on general cases, specific cases or the general case illustrated by specific examples, this page does not have the power to make any changes to the content of an article, only the talk pages of those articles or pages explicitly purposed for and linked from the article/talk page (e.g. an AfD or a WikiProject) can do that. Thryduulf (talk) 12:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If we achieve a result and change something in the policy it does as per WP:POLICY... -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:18, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No. If by some miracle you get the policy change you are asking for, you would be able to go back to the article talk pages and say that "The policy has changed, these images should therefore not be here". If other editors agree with you that the images aren't compliant with the new policy, then the images will be changed when there is agreement on what should replace them. If the consensus of editors do not agree that the images are prohibited by the new policy, then the images will remain. Thryduulf (talk) 20:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If there's no consensus for changing WP:NOT, why should editors who oppose changing it engage in mediation when the purpose of mediation would be to contemplate a change? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:10, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You could make the same argument about any content dispute.
There are several reasons why they'd want to get involved. Firstly to be able to stop talking about it continually, and secondly because refusing to engage in sensible amounts of dispute resolution is disruptive. This discussion at ~100k words alone is long enough to justify some sort of mediation, let alone the ~600k words at Talk:Muhammad.
Of note I have no intention of using mediation to change the policy, just to sort out the two most controversial applications which will clear the air in this discussion. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:45, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with "walking away" is that Ludwigs2 has shown a tendency in the past to wear down his opposition and then declare consensus when he is the only one left in the room.—Kww(talk) 11:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And then when he applies or references this consensus elsewhere the whole cycle starts again. Thryduulf (talk) 12:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think we've gone far enough this time that another cycle won't be allowed to begin. That's when you hit up AN/I with solid evidence. Tarc (talk) 14:11, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you actually want to achieve results you don't go to ANI if you've already been there and achieved nothing. If you haven't done anything wrong dealing with an arbitration case isn't a big deal. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:45, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Don't lecture me, eraser, I am well aware of how Arbcom and AN/I work. The point of going back to AN/I is if any of the editors on the short end of the stick here attempt to go forward from, this point either by edit-warring or starting up yet another RfC. If either of those happen, we go back to AN/I and say "look what has happened since we were here last time". Arbcom isn't necessary for any of this IMO. Tarc (talk) 21:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If this RFC is closed as "no-consensus", as I'd expect, there are no editors at the "short end of the stick".
You can argue that editors on both sides have over-argued the point (how else do you get to 100k words in a month?), but it takes two to tango so its not really plausible that only editors on one side of the discussion have over-argued the case. If both sides have over-agrued the case then the most helpful next step would be to add additional structure to the debate. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 12:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Umm "no consensus" in an RfC isn't a tie; it means that the proposal failed to carry the day. That's a clear side of a stick. Second, your logic is fatally flawed. Speaking up in support of the status quo cannot be "over-arguing". If we stay silent, then the Ludwigs' of the debate just take that as silent consent and plow forward. We have had a simple point counter-point going on here, and as long as the "point" keeps trucking along, the "counter" is more than justified. Tarc (talk) 15:59, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Of course no consensus means the proposal failed to carry the day, as the status quo has to have an advantage to it. However challenging a no-consensus result is a perfectly reasonable thing to do if you bring a better worded and productive proposal to the table. Its perfectly reasonable to try and reach a consensus - either positive or negative.
And you don't have to reply to every point anyone makes. Given you only need no-consensus to "win" you can certainly agree to disagree at any reasonable stage. You could certainly have agreed to disagree after the first 3-4-5 points. Additionally if an editor is only making literally the same points you can link back to the previous discussion.
The only good reason for continuing to respond to someone's points over and over and over is because you think they are strong and different points and are worth countering. And you can't complain about that - that isn't a conduct issue. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't fully agree. It doesn't help to continue to respond to the same points with the same counterarguments, but it may help to continue to point out that L---- the editor's points are the same points in different phrasing. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:59, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that we agree to disagree, in its details its a subtle issue :). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:09, 27 November 2011 (UTC) On re-reading I agree. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests#Tendenitious editing on discussion pages about whether a case based around a semi-hypothetical situation like we find ourselves in currently is potentially within their remit. Please do not continue this discussion, present evidence of your conduct, characterise the situation as you see it, object to anything about how I've described it, etc. there. It is explicitly not a request for arbitration or judgement of any sort, it's a question about whether a request to the arbcom would likely be rejected as out of their remit or not - if they think it is outside their remit then there is no point any of us spending time on collating evidence, making statements, etc. as it would all be wasted. Even if they do decide it is in their purview there is no guarantee or obligation for there to be a request nor that if a request is made that it would be accepted. If there is a request (and subsequent case) then everybody can have their say and present their side of the story. Thryduulf (talk) 12:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • As I commented there, I think one of the admin notice boards is a better next step if the behavior continues. I see no reason for Arbcom to get involved at this time as the community hasn't yet tried to fix the problem. Hobit (talk) 19:28, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree with that, it was more to get an idea of where we could go ultimately if it comes to that (I hope it doesn't) - if we know arbcom is or is not an option it might affect the way it is viewed at AN. Thryduulf (talk) 19:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • If the issue is truly a refusal of a small number of editors to accept consensus then mediation is hardly going to produce a significant compromise over the current position and those editors conduct will become apparent and can be dealt with either at mediation or at the arbitration committee.
      • If the issue is truly one of conduct I am still going to file the mediation request, but then it becomes much easier for the arbitration committee to take the case if that fails, as there is no alternative, and they will be able to address those conduct issues and lock down the images one way or another (probably by straw poll) as they did over Ireland's article titles.
      • At 600,000 words and given what has been said here I think its extremely unlikely that any process before the mediation committee or arbcom will achieve results here - lets try and end this. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Banning L2 would achieve results, as most of the 600,000 words are his. I don't see anything else that is likely to achieve results, but — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Rubin (talk • contribs)
          • Sorry if I give you an edit conflict but that isn't really true. While L2 is the #4 contributor overall he has only been contributing since March 2011, which a) means he's made a lot of edits to the page recently, and maybe significantly more than other editors, but b) this has been an issue at some level since December 2007 and the half million words (or whatever it is) covers that whole period. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we should be giving the discussion on this page a rest. It's been essentially the same relatively small group of editors who have been debating this, and while some useful ideas have been voiced, perhaps now is a time for reflection and digestion. Mediation is not an option -- the 10 editors or so who were mainly involved here don't represent a quorum to change policy anyway, so even if those 10 editors could be led to an agreement in mediation, it would be meaningless, as policy requires wider community input. Let's all take a breather, and let this page return to some semblance of normality. --JN466 21:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • For clarity the mediation suggested here was to apply to Muhammad and/or pregnancy as I think taking the difficult cases out of the discussion means that the discussion here is more likely to be productive. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:18, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think, given the various past image discussions/consensus prior to this discussion on NOT, we are not ever going to be able to come up with a wording that collaborates every past image discussion, beyond "WP is not censored, but the option of using controversial images may be set by consensus on a case-by-case, article-by-article basis." I think we can all agree on that point.
From that there are only two other points I would think we can agree on as well to include in NOTCENSORED or other pages:

  1. That image choice should be guided by (but not set by) what sources for that topic use. Note that I would prefer the stronger idea of "set by" but I understand the concerns that others have said that sources may not always publish images. Still, however, I think any discussion on the relevance of a potentially objectionable image should start with a survey of the literature to see if that can be immediately justified or not. Looking at the sources just needs to be mentioned in NOTCENSORED, but we can't require that aspect.
  2. That there is one unique case for image selection that being the lead image, since this is unavoidable when you land on that page. The lead image should use common sense discretion if the topic uses a mix of objectionable and non-objectionable imagery to use the least objectionable as the lead, simply to avoid shock on arriving at a page. After the lead, it's fair game: the reader has the ability to understand from the text that there's potentially offensive content on the page and can choose to ignore it or not after that, but not when they click a blue-link to go to the page in the first place. This again doesn't mean the lead image can't be objectionable if by the very nature of the topic it will be that case: eg: I have no idea what else you could use to provide a lead image for any article on human genitalia, for example, that won't involve a naked body part at some point, photographed or drawn.

I believe that everyone can agree these general principles hold true, but we aren't going to be able to get any stronger or more objective points that some might prefer. It might be worthwhile to have a noticeboard for objectable content that can attract more eyes to help boost the decision to use or avoid certain images all together. --MASEM (t) 16:46, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I can't agree to that because it's setting up "offensive" images as somehow different to "inoffensive" images. Offensiveness is irrelevant to image choice and image placement - we use the most appropriate image for the circumstances, and that will be different for every single article.
Setting up a special noticeboard for offensive images is one of the worst suggestions on this page as it will become a POV-pushers paradise and possibly bogged down in irrelevant discussions about whether an image is offensive enough to be on that page. There is also likely to be drama elsewhere when a group of users take an image they can't agree about, but which none of them find offensive, to a general noticeboard whereupon they get trouted by someone for polluting the general board with images they think are offensive. Where consensus cannot be reached on an article talk page about an image, then the standard RfC process should be used regardless of what the image shows - whether it is offensive is irrelevant remember.
As for the "image choice should be guided by other sources", as I explained above the relevance of other sources to our image choice policy varies so much by subject matter that anything stronger than "can be guided by" is going to be severely detrimental to the project, particularly as there is not actually a problem in >99.999% of the encyclopaedia (as of this timestamp 0.001% of "all content pages" is 38.1 articles, and so still probably too high). Thryduulf (talk) 17:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In the context of NOTCENSORED, we are clearly focused on potentially offensive or objectionable images. If someone comes here to read what our NOTCENSORED policy is, we are explaining that objectionable images should be discussed for inclusion, there is no objective metric to consider (outside of legal requirements in US/Florida). If this were on another page, like our MOS on Image use, that may be another thing altogether, but here, we specifically advising on what images commonly come up under NOTCENSORED.
Right now, the isolated discussions at specific articles are POV-laiden, because only people interested in those topics are giving their input. The images used in these articles need to meet global consensus for appropriateness, and thus the idea of a global image discussion board would be helpful towards that. And yes, I do agree that the first step on an image choice problem should be at the article talk page, but when no consensus can be reached, the image board could be used. This also may be helpful if/when the Foundation adds that image tagging/filter aspect to help decide on categories so that's forward thinking on that.
We use "guided by sources" throughout other policy pages (core of NPOV and NOR), and as I state, it's meant as a starting point, not a final determination. If consensus of editors agree that an image type that no source uses is best for WP, then there you go, we use that image. The point is that sources shouldn't be ignored as input into the consensus discussion. --MASEM (t) 18:03, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I get what you are proposing, but frankly, I think such a noticeboard would only serve as a form of dispute enhancement. While you envision it as a place to go if no consensus can be reached, I would suggest history has shown that most noticeboards get used when someone doesn't get their way. The last thing Wikipedia needs is yet another bureaucratic battleground. Besides, we already have WP:NPOV/N. Resolute 18:18, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If the idea of a noticeboard is going to be that much of a problem (I think most experience editors know when things are being CANVASSed and and put a stop them them), we should still encourage editors to seek outside opinion via RFC, it would be helping to have such listed somewhere in a central place and possibly with a conclusion of their results so that further issues can be determined by looking back at past conclusions. --MASEM (t) 18:28, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Masem—you say, "We use "guided by sources" throughout other policy pages (core of NPOV and NOR), and as I state, it's meant as a starting point, not a final determination."
Actually I don't find "guided by sources" on either WP:NPOV or WP:NOR. Bus stop (talk) 18:37, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First sentences of the body of both policies state this but not in those exact words. --MASEM (t) 18:42, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Outside of one paragraph in WP:DUE which applies to over-emphasizing minority views there is nothing in NPOV that pertains to images. One could argue items such as naming (not really relevant for this discussion), balance (largely an extension of DUE) might apply. However, none of that deals with whether an image is offensive or not and does not concern itself with technical reasons for why an image isn't present. A minority view does not in any way seem to be linked to offensiveness or not and I think trying to wrap NPOV over that is a huge stretch of that 1 statement. Really it seems if anything NPOV has specifically sidestepped images as best it can rather than deal with them.∞陣内Jinnai 23:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just because NPOV doesn't say anything about images doesn't mean it doesn't apply. I could create a graph for an article (a free image) based on freely available data putting together a correlation without causation (number of chicken eaten in the US by year verses pirate attacks), insert it in an article to justify a fringe data point, and then say "well NPOV doesn't apply to images, you can't remove it!" and then be completely laughed off the site. In a similar manner, when we choose to include an image that we know well-enough is controversial, we should be asking if we are creating that controversy ourselves on the image, or is it already an established issue and thus a factor we can ignore and thus appropriate in NPOV coverage. Basically, I think it's more the case that NPOV has never been approached about the idea of images because it doesn't come up. But again, the only reason I point to NPOV and NOR is that elsewhere in policy there are several places that we follow the sources to construct our articles, so extending that concept to images is not a novel approach. But like these other policies that follow the sources, it is not a strict adherence, allowing for IAR/consensus-based periods for stepping away from sources when it is clearly warranted. --MASEM (t) 23:18, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First off, your assertion on the data chart of chickens and pirate attacks wouldn't be covered by NPOV; it would be covered by NOR as you'd be asserting the two are linked; that's synthesis. Therefore that analogy is a false comparison to say a depiction of nude or semi-nude photo in pregnancy.
Let's assume though you found some source out there which Wikipedia generally considered reliable to back up your statement (and its not a case of CIRCULAR). Before the image is even considered, you'd first have to assert the prose is not FRINGE. If you can assert that its not a fringe theory to enough editors, then adding a chart to depict this will not have any issues because that's a logical extension of that...unless you try to rig the graph in some unusual way to emphasize something. However that would not be an issue that the idea of a graph is invalid, just your graph is invalid. So similarly while a specific depiction of a nude image may be in question because of of a POV it portrays, that there is a nude image does not come into play as far as NPOV is concerned. If there is a nude image in of a model posing for car, that is already covered by NOTCENSORED as a shock image. In pregnancy article, one example of a NPOV image concern could be whether the image(s) show(s) what most people consider a pregnant woman to look like without representation to what month she is in or perhaps only has an image from one trimester. That is a legitimate NPOV concern for an image as it could give a biased impression of what pregnancy is. Another might be chosing a women who have larger swelling of the stomache than the average person. That the image is nude or not is not an NPOV issue.∞陣内Jinnai 23:43, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think Masem's point is that it would be covered under NPOV, for exactly the same reason that it would be covered under FRINGE. FRINGE is an expansion of DUE. Nothing is covered by FRINGE that isn't also covered by DUE.
I disagree that nude images are always neutral.
  1. Some nude images are inherently biased: We have an undisputed encyclopedic need for a nude image of an adult female at Human body. We do not, however, need a porn still at that article, or a woman posing in high heels, or a woman reclining on an unmade bed. These are not neutral, unbiased representations of the female body, and despite the fact that we have thousands of them on Commons, we're not using any of them, and (almost) nobody thinks that NOTCENSORED would or should protect such an image.
  2. Sometimes the choice of a nude image is inherently biased: We do not have a need for naked people in the articles on Swimming, Swimming pools, or Beach. A snapshot of naked people going swimming is not a "shock image", and they are unremarkable in Naturism and Nude swimming. But if you added nude images to Swimming, you would very likely be accused of trying to push a pro-nudist POV. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:11, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. On the other hand, given that at least partial nudity on beaches is common and even uncontroversial throughout much of the world, going out of our way to remove an image from beach that contained nudity, just because it contained nudity, could also open one to accusations of pushing a POV. postdlf (talk) 02:40, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Postdlf, that misses the point. Swimming is not about nudity or even about the human body. Swimming is about swimming. Adding images of nude or topless swimmers doesn't tell us anything at all about swimming, it just distracts the reader with an unnecessary and provocative image. --Ludwigs2 03:46, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And those two posts highlight the basic issue here. One describes nudity on some beaches as common and uncontroversial. The next says that images from such scenes would be provocative. We are a diverse community. HiLo48 (talk) 04:07, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Which is why (as I've been saying all along) we should only be provocative where we have a good, clear encyclopedic reason to be. I have no problem with being provocative in fair measure, but there does need to be some moment of measurement to it. Otherwise we end up as a Yellow press encyclopedia. --Ludwigs2 04:13, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed its no different than the Mohammad issue. It's one set of culture's acceptable norms trying to push its POV on another.∞陣内Jinnai 04:15, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear yes, Ludwig. I highlighted that we had two diametrically opposed views being presented, and you proceeded as if the ONLY possible view was the one you saw. Many of us do not see nudity on a beach where that is the norm as provocative in the slightest. Can you please try to accommodate that view in your world? HiLo48 (talk) 05:06, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, HiLo, we all know that naturists exist, and we all know that they hold distinctly FRINGEy views about whether nudity should be considered "provocative" in any everyday context.
But the fact that this minority group exists doesn't mean that the naturists get to promote their nudity-is-normal POV in contexts where it is completely irrelevant (e.g., a naked person standing next to a car, in an article about vehicles) or uncommon (e.g., in an article about beaches, since the vast majority of beaches in the world are not places where nudity is the norm and the vast majority of reliable sources about beaches do not include nude images). There is no encyclopedic purpose behind including nudity in such contexts, and there is an obvious POV behind the desire to promote nude images in such articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:22, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but NOTCENSORED means that a proper frame for discussion about whether the nude image is included is whether it represents a neutral point of view, NOT whether it is potentially offensive or provocative. To me the question would be, what portion of beaches have the nudity illustrated by the photo. If it was a minority less then say 20%, adding an image that highlights the nudity would clearly not represent a neutral POV in light of the other photo selections and level of discussion about the nudity topic in text. All NOTCENSORED is meant to do is to stop the discussion from being about the offensiveness and make it about whether the image is otherwise suitable, which in this case, in Beach, as currently written and illustrated, I think it would not be. Monty845 18:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Look, if it makes you feel better to cast it that way, fine, but in truth you're just dissembling. The reason why there are relatively few clothes-optional areas in the world is that most people respect the fact that there is a social more involved. So, the small proportion of beaches that allow nudity (the NPOV argument) is a fair reflection of the fact that nudity runs against the standards of almost all cultures in the world, and so we are right back at the issue of offending against cultural norms. As I've said before, failing to distinguish between the individual experience of offense (which is emotional state irrelevant on project) and offense against broadly held standards (which is not an emotional state, but the violation of a cultural regularity) leads to endless confusion. --Ludwigs2 23:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The path to Wikipedia policy fundamentalism -- a case study

What did WP:NOT say about Wikipedia and censorship at the end of each year? Let's see. Text that first appears in a year is green. Text that last appears in a year is red. Text that only appears in one year is blue.

2000
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Nothing. WP:NOT was started in September 2001. [17]

2001–2003
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Nothing.

2004
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Wikipedia is not censored for the 'protection of minors' (content-rated). Firstly, anyone can edit an article and the results are displayed instantaneously, so we cannot guarantee that a child will see or read nothing objectionable. Secondly, Wikipedia has no organized system for the removal of material that might be thought likely to harm minors. However, articles can be, and are, censored by consensus.

2005
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors

Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive. Anyone reading Wikipedia can edit an article and the changes are displayed instantaneously without any checking to ensure appropriateness, so Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images are appropriate for children or adhere to specific social norms. While obviously inappropriate content (such as inappropriate links to shock sites) is usually removed immediately, except from an article directly concerning the content (such as the article about pornography), some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links, provided they do not violate any of our existing policies (especially Neutral point of view), nor the law of the state of Florida in the United States, where the servers are hosted.

2006
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Wikipedia is not censored

Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive. Anyone reading Wikipedia can edit an article and the changes are displayed instantaneously without any checking to ensure appropriateness, so Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements. While obviously inappropriate content (such as an irrelevant link to a shock site) is usually removed immediately, some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the article about pornography) and provided they do not violate any of our existing policies (especially Neutral point of view), nor the law of the U.S. state of Florida, where Wikipedia's servers are hosted.

2007
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Wikipedia is not censored

Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive. Anyone reading Wikipedia can edit an article and the changes are displayed instantaneously without any checking to ensure appropriateness, so Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements. While obviously inappropriate content (such as an irrelevant link to a shock site) is usually removed immediately, or content that is judged to violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy can be removed, some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the articles about the penis and pornography) and do not violate any of our existing policies (especially neutral point of view), nor the law of the U.S. state of Florida, where Wikipedia's servers are hosted.

2008
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Wikipedia is not censored

Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive, even exceedingly so (see Wikipedia:Content disclaimer). Anyone can edit an article, and changes made are displayed immediately, so Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images will always be acceptable to all readers, or that they will adhere to general social or religious norms.

Obviously inappropriate content (such as an irrelevant link to a shock site, or clear vandalism) is usually removed quickly. Content that is judged to violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Wikipedia policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Wikipedia's servers are hosted, will also be removed. However, some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links where they are relevant to the content (such as the articles about the penis or masturbation). Discussion of potentially objectionable content should not focus on its offensiveness, but on whether it is appropriate to include in a given article. Beyond that, "being objectionable" is generally not sufficient grounds for removal of content.

In particular, when a cited quotation contains words that may be offensive, it should not be censored.

2009
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Wikipedia is not censored

Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive, even exceedingly so (see Wikipedia:Content disclaimer). Anyone can edit an article, and changes made are displayed immediately, so Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images will always be acceptable to all readers, or that they will adhere to general social or religious norms.

Obviously inappropriate content (such as an irrelevant link to a shock site, or clear vandalism) is usually removed quickly. Content that is judged to violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Wikipedia policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Wikipedia's servers are hosted, will also be removed. However, some articles may include text, images, or links which some people may find objectionable, when these materials are relevant to the content. Discussion of potentially objectionable content should not focus on its offensiveness but on whether it is appropriate to include in a given article. Beyond that, "being objectionable" is generally not sufficient grounds for removal of content.

Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available—however, when a cited quotation contains words that may be offensive, it should not be censored.

2010
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Wikipedia is not censored

Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive, even exceedingly so (see Wikipedia:Content disclaimer). Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images will always be acceptable to all readers, or that they will adhere to general social or religious norms.

Since anyone can edit an article and most changes made are displayed immediately, inappropriate material may appear before it can be removed. Obviously inappropriate content (such as an irrelevant link to a shock site, or clear vandalism) is usually removed quickly. Content that is judged to violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Wikipedia policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Wikipedia's servers are hosted, will also be removed.

However, some articles may include text, images, or links which some people may find objectionable, when these materials are relevant to the content. Discussion of potentially objectionable content should not focus on its offensiveness but on whether it is appropriate to include in a given article. Beyond that, "being objectionable" is generally not sufficient grounds for removal of content.

Nor will Wikipedia remove content because the internal bylaws of some organizations forbid that information to be displayed online. Any rules that forbid members of a given organization, fraternity, or religion to show a name or image do not apply to Wikipedia because Wikipedia is not a member of those organizations.

2011
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Wikipedia is not censored

Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive, even exceedingly so (see Wikipedia:Content disclaimer). Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images will always be acceptable to all readers, or that they will adhere to general social or religious norms.

Since anyone can edit an article and most changes made are displayed immediately, inappropriate material may appear before it can be removed. Content which is obviously inappropriate (such as an irrelevant link to a shock site, or clear vandalism) is usually removed quickly. Content that is judged to violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Wikipedia policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Wikipedia's main servers are hosted, will also be removed.

However, some articles may include text, images, or links which some people may find objectionable, when these materials are relevant to the content. Discussion of potentially objectionable content should not focus on its offensiveness but on whether it is appropriate to include in a given article. Beyond that, "being objectionable" is generally not sufficient grounds for removal or inclusion of content.

Wikipedia will not remove content because of the internal bylaws of some organizations that forbid information about the organization to be displayed online. Any rules that forbid members of a given organization, fraternity, or religion to show a name or image do not apply to Wikipedia because Wikipedia is not a member of those organizations.

Hans Adler 21:47, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Observations

  • The idea that Wikipedia is not censored first came to WP:NOT in 2004. In that year, this was strictly about the fact that Wikipedia is not a protected environment for children. "[A]rticles can be, and are, censored by consensus."
  • In 2005, this is (to a limited extent) generalised to any material that violates specific social norms. It is pointed out that on some articles such material is relevant. The governing rules are NPOV and the laws of Florida.
  • New in 2007: BLP concerns as a new reason for immediate removal.
  • From 2008, we apparently no longer guarantee that material violates general social norms, either. Discussions about offensive material should not focus on the offensiveness. [According to fundamentalists, this means that offensiveness must not even be considered.]
  • Only in 2009: "[Offensive material] should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available". [According to a fundamentalist reading, this implies that offensive material is not subject to normal editorial decisions. If it makes the article slightly more informative, slightly more relevant or slightly more accurate, then mere policies such as NPOV cannot kick it out.]
  • New in 2010: Rules specific to an "organization, fraternity, or religion" do not apply to Wikipedia because Wikipedia is not a member. [According to fundamentalists, this means that we may not even consider these rules in our content decisions.]

The changing role of NPOV is particularly interesting:

2005
"[...] some articles may include objectionable [material] provided [it does] not violate any of our existing policies (especially Neutral point of view), nor the law [...]"
2011
"Content that is judged to violate [BLP], or that violates other Wikipedia policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws [...] will also be removed"

So in 2005, offensive material could only be included if it did not violate NPOV or the law. In 2011, offensive material can only be removed if it does violate BLP, NPOV or the law. (This is the simplistic and incorrect, but widespread interpretation.) Moreover, the relevant passage has now been buried in a wall of text. Hans Adler 21:47, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Application

What started 7 years ago as an explanation why children should not surf Wikipedia alone, has since become the single most powerful tool of POV pushers. The reminder that we do censor articles, by consensus and policy, was quickly removed. Whenever a sufficient number of editors want to hurt the feelings of a large group of readers they don't like, they can do so using the following strategy:

  • Pick an article that is important to many in the target group. (Recently notable examples: Muhammad for Muslims, pregnancy for socially conservative people.)
  • Add an image or images to the article that will offend the target group. (Figural depictions of Muhammad or nudity.)
  • Claim that the image[s] make[s] the article slightly more "informative, relevant, or accurate".
    • When others deny this, just contradict them. Instead of giving evidence, claim that they just want to censor the image[s] because they are offended.
    • When others agree but say that another image is better for other reasons, just contradict them and follow the same strategy. Or propose using both images.
    • When others agree but want to move an image to a less prominent position where it is even more informative and relevant, change the topic by resorting to ad hominem attacks or procedural disruption.
    • When others agree in principle but say that the value is very marginal and must be weighed against its offensiveness to a large number of readers, deny that such weighting is legitimate.
  • Do not even try to convince your opponents. If you clearly don't listen to them, they will get more and more angry and retaliate against your personal attacks. They may even appear more disruptive than you. (This is basically a variant of the "civil POV pushing" method.) Remember that your goal is not a consensus to include the material (unattainable because it is against NPOV) but no consensus.
  • If you ever find yourself in a corner and a consensus against you is about to form, claim that you have won and that everybody except for one or two disruptive editors agrees with you. This changes the topic elegantly by taking the discussion to a meta-level and prevents any consensus very effectively.
  • Make sure to always restore the disputed comment if someone removes it (unless Jimbo or an arbitrator removes it, in which case it's probably game over).
    • If the offensive material has been in the article for a while: The "long-standing version" is privileged. In conjunction with vague invocations of "NOTCENSORED" and a bit of ruthlessness your side will win every edit war.

A necessary condition for this method to work is, of course, that the target group is sufficiently unpopular. Hans Adler 21:47, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First we don't go out of our way to offend people per WP:Offensive materials and once again you layer a bad faith argument against the people involved. In any biography the individual EXPECTS to see an image of the person that is being discussed be it on religious proscription or not. Hell there are pictures in the Xenu article and I am fairly certain no one even attempts to claim those are going to be accurate since it is suppose to be a lifeform no one has seen. This has nothing to do with a group being popular or unpopular this has everything to do with censorship. Like I said I don't like the idea of seeing a burning flag of any nation let alone my own but if it is in the free speech area I can't say a damn thing because my entire argument would be about offense. Plenty of groups are offended every day, similar to the idea that portions of the world are most likely offended by images of women as they aren't more clothed, but that doesn't matter. Continuing to push the line that people are not willing to have a civil conversation about possible removal of pictures on non offense related grounds is pure bullshit since we already have seen people carrying conversations on how to make something better. Making a thinly referenced criticism section because IDONTLIKETHAT, even if it is laid out in policy that supports how we have gone about things is ludacris. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:12, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The main reason why the majority of things were added was that it never needed saying (explicitly) before then. I'm pretty sure that much of it corresponds to when censorship and similar proposals were rejected, things got added as a way of documenting community consensus so it could be referred to when somebody new came along and tried to impose their POV on the encyclopaedia. I'll not bother to repeat the answers to your arguments as they're already on this page several times, but they arguments are still as incorrect as they were the last five times they've been made in the past three weeks. Thryduulf (talk) 22:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thryduulf has hit the nail right on the head. I've been around here since literally day one (though didnt have much interest in editing till far more recently). I remember various of the changes to policies and the reasons behind them. In virtually every case, it was because such was thought to be self explanatory because of other policies covering it - something I have argued about as well in the past few months. But, as "special interest groups" seeked to censor Wikipedia, NOT was made more and more specific to combat such actions. In no particular order, there were numerous sects of Christianity, those of various sects of the Islamic faith, various governments, various political organizations, the CoS, various corporate entities and some LPs who deemed censoring articles was the way to "collaborate" on Wikipedia. One who remembers various "POV pushers" (for lack of a better term) from each group will also note that the changes to policies (especially NOT and wp:censor) coincide with such events. Nothing disparaging meant in this next statement, and it's not directed at anyone here in particular (or even indirectly), but in some instances, the reaction was "we're right, there is no other POV, anything else goes against our religious/political beliefs". Some of the backlash some may see here could be subconsciously due to such, from those of us who've been around long enough to see what (in the past) were idiotic arguments used to try to ensure that only one POV was ever shown.
For those of you who are versed in Christianity, you can probably guess how devastating that would be. "The POV of Sect A of Christianity is the True Word, and we'll rewrite all articles to fit within that POV - because it's not POV pushing - it's pushing accuracy and fixing "misconceptions". Christianity was just one area such took place in. Images of Muhammad was another. "We're offended. Our religion says this. Nothing else matters". Should we move on to Ireland? Politics? CoS? The CoLDS' repeated attempts at changing their articles? The Ex-Gay movement trying to burying their actions and previous words and rewriting related articles as recruitment pieces? The list goes on and on...
And thus, NOT was changed, and changed, and wp:censor was added, and changed and changed. Fixing wp:censor is great - as long as it doesn't cripple it so it can no longer protect Wikipedia from those who wish to rewrite history, including the histories of others (such as one sect of Christianity demonizing another's interpretations).
With that in mind, one can perhaps see why picking any side in any such argument, based off religious/political/whatever beliefs, or who gets offended; can be a very very dangerous door to open... which brings us back to unbiased use of the other policies and guidelines. This particular policy has been changed for a reason. Perhaps I noted such reasons more than other old-timers because I spent so many years watching how Wikipedia worked, instead of editing articles. I for one would not have thought such changes were necessary - until history unfolded itself and it became very evident that such changes were strongly needed to combat such nonsense. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:23, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So basically we have an analysis that shows a policy evolving through the years as the project grows in size and complexity. And this is a problem...how? Tarc (talk) 01:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, this is an interesting case study in how community consensus reacts to forces seeking to twist what Wikipedia is for. As problems pop up, our policy is altered gradually to combat the tendency. It's a nice study in emerging organization in the face of environmental pressure. — Coren (talk) 02:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the problem is that NPOV does seem to have fallen by the wayside in the counterpush. --JN466 02:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That "problem" is in the eye of the beholder. Not all points-0f-view art equal. Tarc (talk) 02:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's objectively measurable, Tarc. Look at book covers, or RS illustrations of pregnancy. Hell, you can look at Google Images with safe search off: [18] The most frequent image is not a nude one. But no one thinks about that any more – there is just a reflexive resistance against any perceived effort to reduce the prominence of a nude image, because Wikipedia is NOTCENSORED. So we managed to keep people from deleting nude images. Great. Now we have to learn to distinguish where they make NPOV sense, and where they don't. --JN466 02:59, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Facepalm Facepalm The question of whether to put a naked image of a pregnant woman at the top of the article or further down the line is one that can be solved purely by local discussion at that article's talk page, you don't need and never did not to come to WP:NOT to get a ruling or guidance about that. There ware plety of other rational arguments to make against using that image right at the top without fabricating a new and very tenuous "pictures used in RS" argument. Tarc (talk) 13:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it's easy. :)) It just takes X00,000 words and several months of "local discussion", spiced with countless invocations of NOTCENSORED, to get the illustration of a single article to conform to editorial standards in RS. Even when the issue is a complete no-brainer. --JN466 15:09, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We need an easy approach so badly that we should start to "look at book covers" to determine our content? The old adage about not judging a book by its cover is actually very correct as much of what a book portends to be on the surface is different from what is goes on to actually argue and say. Distilling the argument of a source requires evidence-based discussion around it, if you start making assumptions such as "X doesn't have a picture of Y, therefore X believes Y is inappropriate" without any direct statements from X stating that to be the case then you are beginning WP:OR/SYNTH and not reliably expressing the sources arguments.AerobicFox (talk) 18:55, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to argue about inappropriateness at all. For example, if no source reports that Person X likes stamp collecting, the inappropriateness of saying that he does doesn't even enter discussion. We simply summarise, neutrally, as best we can, what sources do say, without spending much thought on all the things they might have said, but didn't. We only start thinking about that when someone adds an unsourced statement that strikes us as odd. Same with images -- if there is an image that strikes lots of people as odd, or incongruous, we should investigate. --JN466 19:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The issue isn't what the most common image is. Obviously, the most common image of a pregnant woman is one where she is clothed, because it is normal for pregnant women to wear clothes. However, the most informative and encyclopaedic image might be one where she is not clothed. Because readers are less likely to want to see examples of what the dresses of pregnant women look like and more likely to want to see examples of what their bellies and boobs look like. --FormerIP (talk) 03:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Haha. That's not a source-based argument; it's just a form of "It's better because I say so." And "because I like to look at boobs, that's what I'll assume readers want to look at too". --JN466 03:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, and I wasn't trying to be funny. Women's bodies undergo change during pregnancy, and that is something that readers are entitled to expect illustration of in the article. --FormerIP (talk) 03:22, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You were being involuntarily funny. Nothing against showing changes in women's breasts in the article, but it's not the right lead image. Why? Because it's not the lead image in reliable sources. --JN466 03:25, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have to admit that "Because readers are less likely to want to see examples of what the dresses of pregnant women look like..." did make me grin a little. Gee, I wonder if the poster is a man? Heh. My take on the issue is defining pregnancy primarily as a social condition (Nothing fits anymore! You have to get a whole new wardrobe! People treat you differently! You're going to have a baby to take care of! Your relationship with your POSSLQ is going to change! etc.) vs. defining pregnancy primarily as a medical condition, a sort of disease that women get. Given the demographics, it's not hard to guess which approach is going to be seen as the obviously correct emphasis, is it? Herostratus (talk) 04:04, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you can find an image that adequately depicts pregnancy from a sociological perspective, then fine. You correctly guessed that I'm a man. I'm correctly guessing that you've never been pregnant ;). --FormerIP (talk) 21:10, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, FormerIP, I wonder if you'd take a look at the list Thrydulff produced above. He surveyed ~20 general-interest encyclopedias and found exactly one image of a naked pregnant woman (and, by the way, unlike ours, that one was not an emotion-laden amateur art nude of an identifiable person). So either 95% of encyclopedias aren't encyclopedic, or photographs of naked pregnant women aren't necessarily encyclopedic content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:57, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see the list you're talking about, but who cares. Wikipedia does not follow other encyclopaedias and it contains more images that any other encyclopaedia. If we were to follow the competition, most of our articles would contain no image. Why are images of naked pregnant women not encyclopaedic whereas pictures of them clothed are? Surely something other than pure prudishness?--FormerIP (talk) 02:20, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well I apologize a bit for my excessive outburst a little bit ago, and since I have calmed down a bit I will post a slightly more happy and more useful post. First the removal of images falls under NOTCENSORED because the only valid point presented to remove them is "they offend people." NOTCENSORED clearly states that offense doesn't matter so unless you come up with a better argument for removal, it is a perfectly valid response. I am under no obligation to raise standards on one article used exactly along the lines of other similar articles simply because someone is being offended by it. Hence until a viable intelligent argument comes out that doesn't use "it offends people and you haven't sufficiently justified it to me" I say good day. Also as a side note @Jayen I would welcome debates on things such as whether it goes against NPOV which we can have civily since it doesn't stem from offensiveness, and if the points are good I may even switch sides based upon the evidence for that sort of push but I am not going to back off on censorship which is what the original demand boils down to. Tivanir2 (talk) 03:15, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It would indeed make sense to take offensiveness out of the discussion altogether, on both sides. To that extent the current wording is actually useful. If someone complains about offensive images, they should demonstrate that reliable sources don't use them in that way. And those wanting to keep them should demonstrate the opposite. No need for offensiveness to feature anywhere in that discussion, really. --JN466 03:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I personally presented six (6) reasons for changing the lead image:
  1. better technical image quality
  2. greater ethnic diversity
  3. compliance with the WMF resolution on least astonishment
  4. the greater value of an image from the third trimester compared to the second trimester
  5. the unencyclopedic nature of an amateur art nude
  6. the greater educational value of using the nude with a detailed caption lower in the article.
But I see that you have declared all six of these reasons to be invalid reasons, "because the only valid point presented to remove them is 'they offend people.'" Or perhaps you didn't ever bother to read the many reasons that people presented? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I must have missed your earlier post. Just so I understand, were you presenting this as a list of genuine reasons, or an example list of pretexts for censorship? --FormerIP (talk) 02:26, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize for the late reply. These are genuine reasons that apply specifically to the single pair of images in question: there are six different, non-censorship-related reasons to prefer one image over the other for the lead, and one good reason to prefer the other image over the one for another use in the article. It happens that one image showed a woman in clothes and the other didn't, but that's basically irrelevant. The presence or absence of clothes, for example, doesn't change the technical quality of the image (which is a matter of lighting and composition, not of clothing). WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yes and no (re: offensiveness), yes, we could remove it from the equation, but no, RS isn't the only criteria we should use in determining content. But I understand what you mean. As for NPOV, the problem isn't NPOV becoming less important or waylaid... the problem is often (check out far more than the Muhammad article, you'll see) NPOV being used as an excuse to bypass wp:censor and other things. No matter what changes to policy are enacted to combat external pressures, people try to figure out which other policies they can use to combat such to push their POV. Every tool in our arsenal to combat censorship, POV and so on will open the door for others to wikilawyer based on them. That, sadly, just happens to be the way things work. That brings us back to "what other RS' do" - which was a problem recently on (coincidentally) another article in the Wikiproject Islam scope, where an editor, to get his way, kept citing what "this reliable source does/claims/whatever" and deeming everyone else's sources as unreliable or less reliable. The argument seemed valid on the face of things, but the truth of the matter turned out to be pushing a bias by trying to invalidate source that did not fit his worldview. No matter what route one takes, such games will go on. And it can make it difficult to find a solution. My solution is simple: I don't edit on many topics I have a great interest or more accurately, a specific point of view on. No matter how strongly I argue for or against something in a topic, chances are it's a topic I'm not strongly interested in. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 03:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You know, the thing I find most ironic about this is that somehow this has left Wikipedia is Not Censored' far behind and become 'Wikipedia Tells the Rest of the World to Fudge Off'. Not that there aren't good uses for NOTCENSORED, mind you, but the vast, VAST majority of text spilled is over cases of petty, pissy little snubs. I mean seriously: neither the nude image at Pregnancy nor the images at Muhammad are world-shattering content: they are relatively trivial material that would normally stay or go as a minor matter of editorial preference. But some people dislike the images because of particular cultural worldviews, and then other people get on their high horse because they don't want the first group telling them what to do, and this minor matter of editorial preference blows up into an endlessly congested ego-ridden mess. stupid.

This problem is actually easy to fix, but it requires editors to cease obsessing over trivial matters. Yes, Wikipedia is not censored, but that does not mean that it has to be rigidly defended in every minor arena as though it were a matter of life and death for the project. We write this encyclopedia for the general public, and so we ought to at least give lip service to what the general public (in its excessive diversity) wants and prefers. Otherwise the project is just being pointlessly obnoxious.

I mean, it's absurd: I make one simple suggestion - that we should not mindlessly offend the people we write the encyclopedia for, but should consider their interests where possible - and it opens up several hundred pages of whoop-ass. What's wrong with this picture?

Ask yourself a question: How does offending cultural mores and religious beliefs over trivial matters help build a better encyclopedia? I can see how squabbles of this sort might be needed when material is really pertinent to article content, but that's not the case in any of the situations I've been involved in. There is a value to maintaining a good rapport with our readers, and that sometimes means we have to give a little. And yes, yes, I know all the fear-mongering stories about how if we give even a little 'they' will ravage the project; I just have no use for that kind of paranoid silliness. Take the NOTCENSORED principle that far and it stops being a benefit to the project and starts being a bloody curse. --Ludwigs2 03:48, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)That would at least be a decent argument other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT or WP:ILIKEIT. Whether RSes use it or could be an indicator on whether the image is apporpaite or not, but it should not be a major point, but as a secondary point that could sway an argument when other considerations are considered.∞陣内Jinnai 03:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"How does offending cultural mores and religious beliefs over trivial matters help build a better encyclopedia?" You have this the wrong way round. We are not offending anybody or anything to build a better encyclopaedia. We are building a better encyclopaedia and if that happens to offend anyone, well so be it. It's not possible to not offend anyone because there are plenty of examples where you have only two choices, both of which offend some people. For example at Nudsim you can either show nudity or not show nudity, it's not possible to do anything else. Showing nudity will offend those who find nudity offensive, not showing nudity will be offensive to those who think nudity is no big deal and by not showing it you're saying it's something that should be hidden. So we have two choices - decide which point of view we prefer and offend the other one(s) so we don't offend them (regardless of how, why or which one we choose), or decide to be neutral and treat every POV the same without following any, regardless of who is offended by what. Since the very beginning we've chosen option 2 (which we've chosen to call "NPOV"). There isn't a choice between NPOV and NOTCENSORED, you cannot have the former without the latter. In certain circumstances it's not going to be obvious which option is the NPOV one, and that's what we have talk pages for. What factors are relevant will be different for each discussion, with the one exception - offensiveness is never relevant. This proposal is trying to legislate for all cases based on the views of a small number of people about what factors should be taken into account in one or two specific cases, which is only going result in bad rules. Thryduulf (talk) 11:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We've been telling him that for over a month now. Every single time a new tangent breaks out we have to fend of the "why are we purposefully pissing [group X] off for no good reason?" We explain that pissing them off is not the intent, nor do we feel that the reason for the image inclusion is "no good", but as this is about the dozenth time I've had to say the above, it ain't working. Tarc (talk) 14:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with the analysis except the conclusion "offensiveness is never relevant". Offensiveness should be considered once all other factors (encyclopedic relevance, NPOV, etc. etc. ) have been discussed through consensus and results in two or more choices for image use (this includes the choice "use no image at all"). If consensus has determined to a degree that two options for images are equally valid, have the same encyclopedic value where they are used, leaving the consensus stuck between these, but one is known to be a less offensive choice (with a heaping dose of common sense) than other options, that option should be picked over the more offensive ones, particularly if we're talking the article's lead image(s). But again, strongly emphasizing that this is the ultimate tie-breaker in case of a completely stale-mated consensus; whether something is offensive or not shouldn't enter at all into the decision process. And note: one thing to always consider in these debates is that as long as we are talking free images, it is always possible to include multiple options in an article (if that's possible): eg: I would not see an issue with Pregnancy having a clothed-woman lead image and a nude-woman body image. --MASEM (t) 14:20, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thryduulf, Tarc: Here is precisely the IDHT sticking point; maybe if we work this through we can get somewhere. You are both apparently making the (to my view) absurd claim that every odd thing entered into an article is by definition making the encyclopedia better. While I certainly accept that most of the time editors are trying to make the encyclopedia better, not every editor has the same values, not every effort at improvement succeeds at being an improvement, and not every actual improvement is of equal value. Images are particularly variable: they can run the gamut from being mere eye-candy to making vital contributions to the reader's understanding of a topic, and it simply makes no sense to treat all images as though they are all equal, all the time.
When you destroy distinctions of this sort, you destroy knowledge by reducing everything to subjectivity. Thryduulf did it just above:
  • Thryduulf asserts that "We are building a better encyclopaedia" (emphasis mine) - explicitly claiming that all additions are definitively equal improvements
  • Thryduulf asserts that the offense to broadly-held cultural mores is equal to the offense Wikipedia editors feel at not being allowed to violate them - explicitly reducing everything to intellectual, moral, and emotional subjectivity
  • Thryduulf concludes (since all additions are equal improvements and that all objections are equally subjective) that we must in all such cases offend someone so we might as well be offending them. (apparently the concept of noblesse oblige is a bit of a mystery to you guys…)
The use of NOTCENSORED in this fundamentalist manner opens the door to all sorts of petty abuses. Effectively it allows an editor to add any old image he finds appealing and fortify it against all objection, just by claiming that the objections (whatever they may be) are really about offense. An editor can impose his own personal tastes and preferences on our entire readership for no other reason than that he feels like doing it, because NOTCENSORED allows him to place his personal tastes and preferences above every other consideration. it's - again - absurd. Do you see what I'm getting at? --Ludwigs2 16:25, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One editor cannot add a potentially offensive image to an article and then use NOTCENSORED as a shield to protect it on his own: specifically, NOTCENSORED states Discussion of potentially objectionable content should not focus on its offensiveness but on whether it is appropriate to include in a given article. - an implicit declaration that inclusion of objectionable content should be decided by consensus, not one or a fringe minority of editors resisting the larger consensus. Or to be more exact: NOTCENSORED, like all other policies and the like, is not written as an absolute, and thus should not and cannot be used in a Wikilawyering manner to get ones' way (whether to force the inclusion of a type of image, or demand removal of such); if you can't sway the consensus on a page, then continued arguing will be seen as tenacious and beating the dead horse. --MASEM (t) 17:03, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Please stop twisting my words. I have never said that "all additions are equal" or "all images are equal" they are not. If someone adds anything to an article that another editor doesn't think is beneficial then either they revert it and/or discuss it. If the consensus of the discussion is that the addition is beneficial it stays, if the consensus of the discussion is that the addition is not beneficial it goes. The only problem comes when someone doesn't accept that the view they have is not supported by consensus. Is there any blood still left in that horse carcass, Ludwigs? Thryduulf (talk) 17:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Masem: One editor can do it, but it's not likely to stick without support. However, there are numerous editors who will involve themselves in such disputes merely because they are concerned with censorship (without regard to the actual issue), and then it becomes tremendously easy to do. That's what happened on both Pregnancy and Muhammad - the images were added by some particular editor for some reason of his/her own, but the people who defend the images do it almost exclusively as a principle of censorship. That's bad.
@Thryduulf: I quoted you exactly on what you said. However, if you I misunderstood you and you agree that all images are not equal, then I assume that you also agree that some images are of little to no value to articles. If that's true, then please explain to me why images of little to no value should be protected by NOTCENSORED? Assumedly an image of little to no value was added because some editor liked it; why should that first person's personal preferences outweigh well-established cultural norms? And please don't feed me that backhanded line about the first editor being 'offended'; no one is offended by not seeing something they want to see (they may be annoyed, or frustrated in a 'spoiled child' sort of way, but not offended). To my mind, if it's a choice between a wikipedia editor's preferences and the well-established mores of a cultural group, then all other things being equal the cultural mores should win out. Wikipedia is not the correct place for editors to challenge the beliefs or mores of any community in the real world, and we should avoid doing so except where we clearly must to write an informative encyclopedia. --Ludwigs2 17:39, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed all images are not equal, some images are of little value to articles, and NOTCENSORED does not protect any image that is not relevant to the article. NOTCENSORED only protects images from being removed because people don't like them. You refer to "well-established cultural norms" but whose are you talking about? We are a global encyclopaedia and the "well-established cultural norms" even in countries like Britain, France and the United States (and in some cases even regionally within countries) are different from each other. I don't know where you are from, but your words and behaviour speak of different cultural norms to those I grew up with in northern and then south-western England. Choosing what images to show based on not offending the social and cultural norms of one group of people is censorship.
The problem as I see it with regards to the images at pregnancy and Muhammed is that you think they add little to no value to the article, but a consensus of editors disagrees with you and think that the images do add significantly to the article. You have tried to then argue that because the images are offensive to a set of cultural norms that this outweighs the usefulness of the images to the article - and that is exactly what NOTCENSORED is there for, to stop one set of cultural values being imposed on a global, NPOV encyclopaedia. Thryduulf (talk) 18:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thryduulf: You've made two mistakes here (probably unintentionally):
  1. You seem to be asserting that Wikipedia needs to pick one cultural norm and adhere to it; at least, that's what it sounds like when you say "but whose [norms] are you talking about?" In fact, it's perfectly feasible to to show basic respect for all cultures without violating the quality of the encyclopedia. We do it the way I've suggested it be done from the beginning: Don't do things that go against cultural mores without having a good reason. That involves acknowledging that there's a cultural concern out there and weighing it. So:
    • We acknowledge that there's a fairly universal social more against casual nudity in public spaces - even in Britain that's the case, though they are more relaxed about it than other lands. On nudism, the article is about nudity so we have a good reason to use a nude image in the lead; on pregnancy we lack that clear mandate.
    • We acknowledge that there's a proscription in Islamic law against depictions of Muhammad. On Depictions of Muhammad the article is about such depictions so we have a good reason to use them; on Muhammad we lack that clear mandate.
    I get that people don't want to 'give in' to Muslims or prudes - I've heard variations on that sentiment repeated often enough to make me nauseous - but that's just ego talking; wp:BATTLEGROUND mentality. there comes a point where we just have to acknowledge that using a particular image isn't worth the trouble it creates or the offense it causes, and save our energies for places where it's worth fighting about it.
  2. The cause of the disturbances on both Pregnancy and Muhammad was not that I think the images have no value and other editors think they have value. On the contrary, I suspect that I have roughly the same opinion of the value of those images as any proponent (I don't happen to think it's a bad image). The problem is that the proponents evaluate conventional mores and Muslim culture as worthless; so worthless in fact that there are frequent assertions that such opinions are not even allowed to be voiced much less considered. It's a complete upturning of NPOV, the censorship of broadly-accepted norms in the real world simply to indulge the tastes of a few advocate wikipedia editors. ridiculous!
What your argument really amounts to is not a defense of NPOV, but rather the imposition of your own Western, liberal, secular, intellectual viewpoint on the rest of the world. It's internet colonialism (if you'll pardon me coining a phrase), except that the savages you're trying to civilize aren't really savages but just anyone who happens to disagree with what you think is normal and acceptable. Is that what you think Wikipedia is meant for? --Ludwigs2 20:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty much every thing in that comment is wrong. What my viewpoint on any given topic is is irrelevant - I find plenty of things offensive, but I don't try and remove them from the encyclopaedia. It is not that we want to be NPOV by being uncensored, it's that we cannot be NPOV without being Uncensored. We are going out of our way not to impose our views or anybody else's views on the encyclopaedia. Your opinion is that we should respect the POV of major groups of people and ignore the POV other groups of people. We cannot do that. Thryduulf (talk) 23:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I'm asserting the exact opposite - Wikipedia cannot pick any cultural norm to follow and remain NPOV. When I said "but whose [norms] are you talking about?" I was asking you (Ludwigs) a question related to your assertion that we should follow cultural norms, i.e. whose cultural norms do you (Ludwigs) want us to follow? Thryduulf (talk) 23:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    There is not "a fairly universal social more against casual nudity in public spaces", see for example Nude beach, Cap D'Aged, Quarup, Nudity#Non-western perspectives, World Naked Bike Ride, etc. so your argument doesn't hold water. Thryduulf (talk) 23:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Some Muslims believe that, not all do, some Muslims believe that all depictions of humans are against Islamic law, most don't. These are irrelevant though because we do not follow the POV of any one group. Thryduulf (talk) 23:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not about "giving in" to Muslims, prudes or anyone, it's about being neutral. We cannot censor based on offensiveness to one group of people but not based on offensiveness to another group of people. As I explained above it's not possible to offend nobody, so we do not take into account offensiveness at all. Full stop. Thryduulf (talk) 23:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    This rather proves that either you've not listened to a single thing that has been said in this discussion or you've just not understood. We don't care about offensiveness because it is irrelevant, we don't care about "cultural mores" because they are irrelevant. We don't think either they or Muslim culture is "worthless" - it's just we don't follow them, because to do so would be biased against the ones we don't follow. What Muslims find offensive is just as irrelevant as what you find offensive. Thryduulf (talk) 23:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty much every thing in that comment is wrong. What my viewpoint on any given topic is is irrelevant - I find plenty of things offensive, but I don't try and remove them from the encyclopaedia. It is not that we want to be NPOV by being uncensored, it's that we cannot be NPOV without being Uncensored. We are going out of our way not to impose our views or anybody else's views on the encyclopaedia. Your opinion is that we should respect the POV of major groups of people and ignore the POV other groups of people. We cannot do that. Thryduulf (talk) 23:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I refactored your text into a single block - please don't chop up a cohesive post that way.
So, to answer your questions:
  1. I don't want wikipedia to follow any particular norm (except perhaps the kind of careful circumspection you generally find in academic circles). What makes you think I have anything particular in mind? all I've ever said is that we should not offend cultural mores unless we have a good reason to, whicb seems entirely sensible to me. I still don't see why you object to it.
  2. Nude Bike Ride counter-examples? seriously? I'll buy that argument when I see you strip down and go grocery shopping in the buff, or when I find out that you constantly see people flipping through playboy images on their iPads during business meetings. Hell, in every place I've ever lived even getting a glimpse of nudity requires a couple of dates and some earnest persuasion, and I've lived in San Francisco. There is undeniably a universal social more against casual nudity in public spaces, and asserting otherwise is patently delusional. I can see how you might not want that to be the case - who does? - but please don't deny the evidence of everyone's eyes.
  3. Who gets offended by removing an image of a nude woman or removing an depiction of Muhammad? Wikipedia editors? people in the real world don't care, surely, so long as they get the information they need from the article. What you're really saying is that a few Wikipedia editors get their panties in a bunch because they don't get to display an image that's not really necessary for the article. So if we have to choose between offending a major religion and irritating a handful of wikipedia editors, which do you think we should do?
  4. Irrelevant equals worthless, Thryd. This isn't about following Islam, nor is it about promoting one religion over another. I would (and do) make the same argument for any different group. this is about not being dicks towards groups where we don't have to be. You simply fail to grasp the concept of common courtesy, that there's a value in not being insulting straight out of the box. and that's just sad.
Last point: NPOV does not require NOTCENSORED to work. Yes, NOTCENSORED is helpful where there is actual determined efforts at censorship. However, that's not what's going on: you are asserting that everyday, garden-variety social norms and mores are somehow a form of censorship. it's like NOTCENSORED is the "No Trespassing" sign we hang on our bedroom door because we don't want those stupid adults to come in and mess with our shit; not a mature attitude towards the problem at all. You force me into the role of an adult, where I have to explain to you why it's important to be kind to others where you can, and frankly that just sucks for me; It's not a role I'm suited to. so stop it. --Ludwigs2 00:43, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
With this statement are you going to stand up and say you support the burning US flag for the United States article so you are practicing what you preach? With regards to nude beach etc. come on, they are by far in the minority. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:55, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the burning flag, if it's relevant to the article it should be in there, if it isn't it shouldn't be. Nothing else matters. As for " With regards to nude beach etc. come on, they are by far in the minority", the point of NPOV is that we don't support or oppose ANY point of view or culture, regardless of whether they are a minority or a majority. NPOV means "neutral" not "the majority". Thryduulf (talk) 00:01, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, but neutrality includes WP:UNDUE. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:11, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It does, and that's part of assessing the relevance to the topic. I've not read the United States article in a while, so I don't know whether there is a relevant part of that article (my gut feeling though is that if it's relevant anywhere it's more likely to be in a more specialised sub-article than the main overview about the country). Assessing the relevancy of images to topics, and assessing the weight of those topics, is something we do every day on the project without drama. We don't have an article specifically on flag burning (that title is a redirect to Flag desecration) which at first glance looks very sparsely illustrated for a Wikipedia article. It's interesting to note that the lead image there is of a "modified" American flag being burned. Thryduulf (talk) 18:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I was aiming my WP:UNDUE comment at the nude beaches thing. Nude beaches are by far in the minority. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:46, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hans, your analysis of the changes in policy over time are interesting to see (it'd be interesting to generate this on various policies over time, actually), but your analysis of the application is an excellent example of assume bad faith. Generally speaking, I see consensus run toward Masem's analysis—we should not gratuitously offend (so we would not, for example, utilize nude photos of humans if clothed photos would serve the same encyclopedic purpose), but we should also not suppress any information of encyclopedic relevance in order not to cause offense (seeing nude pregnant women clearly illustrates the physiological changes that pregnancy causes in the body, in a way that seeing a clothed pregnant woman does not, seeing depictions of Muhammad throughout history provides historic context, both in ways that text alone has difficulty in fully conveying). Did it occur to you that, rather than being cackling villains, maybe those who disagree with you just as genuinely feel they're doing the right thing as you do, and maybe that's why they frequently gain consensus? Generally, when someone is using NOTCENSORED to disguise a POV push or the like, they're shot down quickly. When I see successful invocations of NOTCENSORED is when someone is trying to censor, that is, to remove pertinent and encyclopedic information or images because they're "offensive". That is exactly what NOTCENSORED is intended to prevent. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:43, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Seraphim: I don't know about bad faith, but it is clearly what actually happens in discussions - I've been on the butt-end of this for weeks and weeks now (not to mention previous experiences), so that's not really deniable. I personally don't see it as any intentional effort to be crapulent: to my mind what we have is an indulgence in excess - too much of a good thing turning into a bad thing,a s it always will. We have editors who have found a simple, mindlessly programmatic method of resolving some serious censorship problems (which is all-in-all a good thing) but they have turned and applied that same mindlessly programmatic method to things that aren't serious problems, or even to things that aren't actually censorship at all. It has become a way for them to impose their will on the community without regard to context, under the fantasy that they are still doing good. I'm sure that all the vocal opponents to change here think of themselves as glorious defenders of the wiki (and I'm sure that most of them have barn-starred most of the others at one point or another), but these situations get out of control because they refuse to accept that there should be limits to their actions.
I swear, NOTCENSORED has become Wikipedia's pepper spray, and there are too many people spraying it just so they can get whatever they want, no matter how ridiculous. it's nuts. --Ludwigs2 16:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ludwig, have you even considered that the reason you feel you are the "butt-end" of so much rejection is because most people actually believe you to be simply incorrect? That the limits you believe there should be are simply honestly not shared by most people? Why must you presume that anyone who disagrees with you about what is or is not a serious problem do so because they are mistaken, and never consider that you might be? — Coren (talk) 18:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(e/c) Coren, I know that people think I'm incorrect, and I'm more than willing to consider the possibility that might be true. However - and you and many others seem to miss this important point - I'm not just voicing an opinion, I am making an argument (and a damned good one, at that). I expect a certain number of people to tell me to shut up and go away, of course. That's the nature of politics everywhere; there's always a Maginot line of die-hards who try to protect even the worst ideas out of deference to the status quo. Getting through that line is a question of patiently explaining and re-explaining until the fortifications weaken and the argument starts to sink in, and after that happens we can have the real discussion which will actually decide the issue. On this particular issue the fortifications put the historical Maginot line to shame, but... We'll get to the real discussion as soon as people are ready for it.
If you think I enjoy this kind of thing, think again; my periodic fits of pique ought to tell you otherwise. But I've never been the sort to let my own emotional states interfere with reason, and I'm certainly not inclined to let other people's emotional attachments get in the way either. If you want me to admit my position is incorrect, show me that my position is incorrect; do that and I'll drop this like a hot potato on a cold day. But be aware that if you actually engage this issue with me I expect you to have the same open-mindedness and willingness to accept reason that I have. fair enough? --Ludwigs2 19:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No one is asking you to admit if you are incorrect or not. I think everything I've read based on your arguments is to understand that you may be believe a specific approach to objectionable images needs to be taken, and that's your opinion, but it rubs against the grain of the larger consensus of the whole project. To keep on thumping your view, even if you believe you are 100% correct and the consensus is 100% wrong, to try to get the consensus to change is not helpful when the arguments get drawn out this long: that's what leads to tenacious editing. I believe that the majority of people involved in this discussion are asking you to respect the consensus of the whole even if you feel that is completely wrong, and edit, participate, and discuss within those bounds. That's a necessity of any open project to function properly without a chain of command. --MASEM (t) 19:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, you misunderstand: I am happy to admit that I am incorrect if someone can demonstrate to me effectively that I am. I prefer when other editors behave the same way. That's the way a healthy consensus discussion works. You seem to be asking me to respect reasoning I believe to be impoverished simply because some smallish number of editors are hung up on that poor reasoning and can't see beyond it (and yes, smallish number is correct - there are maybe 20 people involved here, and the sides are roughly split numerically). While I understand the interpersonal politics of the situation far better than you might realize, that request does not strike me as reasonable. How does my sacrificing rationality to save us from a stubborn dispute advance the project? Until this issue is resolved, the same stubborn nonsense is going to crop up on page after page after page (just as it had done for years before I raised this issue). It's better for the project if we bite the bullet now and fix this rather than continuing to allow it to run rampant. --Ludwigs2 19:55, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, that's not what was asked. First, realize there is no "correct" answer here, so you cannot be more correct than anyone else. Unless the Foundation says something more concrete on handling of such images, there is no correct answer, only what consensus decides. And the point of a healthy consensus is to recognize when your POV on the subject of discussion is clearly the minority, and, importantly, continue editing work within the bounds set by consensus even if you know it is wrong. I, for example, strongly disagree about the arbitrary use of cover images under WP:NFCC allowances, but recognize that the consensus agrees they are ok, so I don't edit war against that. When you are considering your POV to be the "correct" one and that to go with consensus would require you to "sacrifice rationality", that's the problem that we're running into - not the direct issue with the NOTCENSORED aspect but the continue pounding of the issue when its clear that the consensus doesn't appear ready to move in that direction.
I will also point out that in the past, when there has been discussions on changes to policy or guideline pages that have otherwise ended in no clear consensus, the usual solution is to maintain the status quo, until a better change is suggested. This is what I'm seeing here; NOTCENSORED covers much of the concerns given but not is the exact words or in as many words as some would like; adding those words however leads to potential misunderstand others have pointed out. I would project that the end result of this discussion is that NOTCENSORED stays as it is, since I'm not seeing any proposal for change that has clear acceptance. Even if you feel that the lack of clear instruction may be harmful in the future, we'll deal with that when it comes. Right now, there's such a loose question of what is needed to be done to make more discussion less helpful since we're just running in circles. --MASEM (t) 20:13, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How do you know his view is in the minority? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:17, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Masem: the intellectual relativism defense? I expected better. The fact that there is no 'correct' answer (a point I agree with) does not imply that there are no 'better' arguments, and better arguments are what are supposed to hold sway on project. Consensus is not majority rule, nor is it enforced obedience to the status quo, nor is it determined by vague ad populum assertions. What we have here is a few editors who have made reasonable proposals for consideration and a few other editors who have thoroughly disrupted the discussion by angrily opposing everything. With that in mind, I see no reason to stop trying to build consensus for my position, because I think my positions is both intellectually stronger and more in the interests of the encyclopedia than the current status quo. Unless you are instructing me to stop trying to build consensus using your position as a sysop? --Ludwigs2 21:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know that Ludwigs' view is the minority, but the reading of this page and the intensity of his arguments suggest it is. But that's not what I'm trying to say. Again, I know that I'm 100% correct that most cover use images on WP fail a direct reading of NFC and the Foundation's Resolution on images. I pushed for an RFC. The RFC came back resoundingly that consensus agrees cover image use was actually fine. I abide by that decision, even though I know my argument is stronger. Part of working in a consensus-driven open environment like here is knowing when to back down and go with the flow.
And to me that's the issue. I'm not seeing an RFC. I'm seeing a disorganized mess of discussions that start from various article talk pages that have come to here. This entire process would be much better if there was a formal RFC (likely at a centralized page, advertised at VPP/CENT) establishing exactly the perceived problem and how to fix it. This would gain a larger number of eyes and thus achieve a better result than what's happening here where I'm just trying to guess what the larger issues may be. --MASEM (t) 21:30, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can I see the RFC which came back resoundingly that consensus agrees that cover image use was actually fine? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:07, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Non-free content/Cover art RfC, closed by non-involved admin. --MASEM (t) 22:10, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, just at a glance that seems like a more-or-less civilized, organized discussion. How did that happen? whenever I try to start such a discussion here I get mobbed by 3-4 people all talking at cross-purposes. That's part of what makes this debate so hard: I end up trying to have three distinct discussions interspersed with each other, which makes it almost impossible for any one discussion to reach a meaningful conclusion. discourse over a fractal geometry; never pretty. --Ludwigs2 23:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Without seeing how you started discussions before, I can't answer. But the more organized you start the RFC, with a clear goal and result, the more likely you'll have a organized discussion. I'm going to offer to help draft one for this, see new section below (in a moment) if this seems like a goal. --MASEM (t) 23:59, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So the new argument is we are going overboard with the policy of not being censored because we offend the wrong sorts of people? The problem is to delete something entirely, the only purpose to do so in the case of muhammad, is to cater to religious prescripts of a faith. Granted they are a large faith but it is still trying to justify we should not worry about offense unless there are enough people or a specific group of interest involved. The fact is, over time there have been no less than half a dozen justifiable reasons to keep the pictures but they have been dismissed by specific individuals, when these same arguments are in line with other content on this project. The fact that there seems to be some sort of claim that "these images have to do more because they are offensive" is hog wash. At the end of the day the idea that people are offended and it shouldn't be so doesn't carry the day so as soon as I see some reasonable attempts at using policies that actually would be an impact not a simple IDONTLIKETHAT I will be happy to debate things at length. Tivanir2 (talk) 18:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Presuming this is a reasonable summary of Ludwig's views I don't think there is anything there that's particularly controversial.

Besides the arguments that have been used to defend not including a picture of the US flag burning in the United States article are basically exactly the same as the arguments used to reduce the number of images of Muhammad. We are basically very long-windedly agreeing with each other. The only difference is that some people aren't being entirely internally consistent with their views across different subjects, but I'm sure that's a weakness we all face - as the vast majority of articles have sensible images, and there are probably a fair few topics where I'd be more extreme than other editors. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:59, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The NPOV argument of his is completely concocted bunk. We've had to deal with his shifting arguments of why to get rid of images that are perceived to cause offense, whether it is that we're being purposely offensive to Muslims, that the images are "incidental" and unnecessary to the articles, that we're all raving "not censored" fanatics, and probable 3-4 other rationales I've purged from memory. Now it is "it isn't neutral to not consider the "Muslims-who-don't-like-images POV". Horse puckey. Tarc (talk) 19:07, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If there are four different logical arguments in favour of a position, that's hardly something that makes it weaker. Much the opposite. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:49, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They aren't any stronger when all of them come back to a think of the children motive and about offense. It would make it stronger if they were things like this is fringe POV and gratuitously offensive. The reason I have issues with the arguments is all of them have traced back to offense so far, and well NOTCENSORED covers that. Tivanir2 (talk) 21:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If so then the same logic can be used against your desire to avoid having a burning US flag in United States. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:44, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it could and that is the beauty of it. However you still need to reach consensus on whether it is useful for the article. If you manage to convince others that view point is a good one have at. 132.3.53.68 (talk) 22:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC) Again apologies for wikipedia signing me out. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:09, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well done for being the first person in this entire discussion who is prepared to support that position - of course maybe you aren't an American so <shrug>.
Of course if you wouldn't be able to persuade the community that the image of the burning US flag isn't acceptable then unless we are relying on our editors double standards (and possibly hypocrisy) we won't be able to find a consensus to include the controversial images at Muhammad either. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:12, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Um those would be too entirely separate arguments. As for the info I am in the military and an American but that doesn't mean I bury my face in the sand when something is completely about offense. I just want it to go where it should (which may or may not be on the US article) be it the US article, an article on perceptions of foreign policy, or freedom of speech. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be there. Also is there an argument somewhere that the only reason it should be off is because it is offensive? Because that I would point out NOTCENSORED to but if there is another argument (such as it adds nothing to a reader's understanding and is not supported by text) then I would also weigh that. The problem is even though I can accept there are things I do not like there are others that try to say things need to be removed because either I do not like it or others do not like it. That being said if someone convinces me it needs to be there I will fight for it just as hard as I fight for other images. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:27, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I do genuinely respect your position. It is definitely consistent. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Starting a more centralized, organized RFC on this

I would like to propose that we engage in a more organized RFC than what this past discussion on WT:NOT has been to try to gain clarity on the issues. I'd be willing to work at drafting it (I've done these many times before) though will need a some input (NOT NOW) towards that. I'm only tossing that idea out to get a straw poll and make sure there are no major objections to this. Specifically, my thought here is to determine what, if any, changes need to be made to NOTCENSORED aligned with any other policy/guideline pages to account for actual practice or to set specific goals for objectionable content. But what the actual goals will be, I don't yet for sure. --MASEM (t) 00:02, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If we are to have another RfC then we need to be clear in what we're asking. Looking at the comments in the "RfC on NOTCENSORED" section, there is clear consensus that incidental material can be removed if it's not relevant to the article, regardless of whether it is offensive or not. I say this because the majority of comments in both sections say exactly that. We don't need to ask that question again, the answer is clear.
This then leads us onto what questions need to be answered. This page is not the place to ask about specific articles, so that rules out questions about Muhammed, and Pregnancy, etc.
There is possibly a question about image choices/reliable sources, but what is actually being proposed is unclear and seems to have changed multiple times. Consensus seems to me to exist for the follwing statements. Statements in square brackets are what I consider to be logical inferences from what has been said, bit are not necessarily explicitly supported.
  • The image choices of primary and secondary sources are not directly relevant because they and we have different goals, different constraints and a different purpose, although we may look at these and use them as one factor in our choices about images.
  • The image choices of comparable sources (meaning illustrated, online, global, uncensored, NPOV, general purpose encyclopaedias) might be[, but are not guaranteed to be (e.g due to publication date),] relevant, but we don't slavishly follow them either [we don't want to get anywhere near near plagiarism/copyright issues].
  • The absence of an image in a source is not evidence of a rejection of that (type of) image.
  • Discussions about which images are used in which articles is for article talk pages, assisted by RfCs [and third opinions, etc] if needed
  • An image being offensive or not offensive is not a reason for that image's addition or removal to an article, regardless of who it offends or does not offend
  • An image that is relevant may be included in an article, regardless of whether it offends anyone or not
  • An image that is not relevant may be removed from an article, regardless of whether it offends anyone or not
  • Whether an image is relevant to an article or not is determined by a consensus of editors on the article talk page
  • Images that introduce facts, make assertions, give implications, etc, may be removed if these are not supported by referenced text in the article [unless the images are reliable verifications of the text they illustrate (e.g. the picture of the sign at the railway station verifies the first sentence of Llanfairpwllgwyngyll#Pronunciation)].
Is this a fair summary of where we are at? Thryduulf (talk) 11:46, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but that is not an entirely fair summary of the problem. Issues:
  • If you agree that the "RfC on NOTCENSORED" establishes a clear consensus that incidental material can be removed regardless of offense, then that needs to be added to NOTCENSORED in clear and unambiguous terms, and as the rest of the page shows we are having a tremendously difficult time doing that. The PROBLEM here Is that on some article editors invoke NOTCENSORED to include excessive or irrelevant controversial material, and justify it by endlessly subjective assertions that the image has some almost mythical value. We need to establish some sort of concrete criteria for when an image is 'valuable enough' to be protected by NOTCENSORED, otherwise we solve nothing.
  • You have weighted the discussion of images very heavily towards the arguments of people who oppose changes, and missed most of the arguments of the original proposers. But I'll leave that for Jayen and Hans to to clarify, since it's more their thing. I'll point out, however, that the issue of offense needs to be addressed, if only because it's become such a desperate battle-cry for NOTCENSORED advocates; every debate on this issue boils down to a handful of editors stridently screaming that all opponents are acting out of offense (with the not infrequent assertion that they need to grow some balls). the offense rubric legitimizes personal attacks as a formal part of the decision process, and that needs to be fixed. --Ludwigs2 15:01, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I personally oppose yet another RfC and would view such as an abuse of process. We've done this twice in a month. We don't need #3. Let it drop for a while (3 months) and come back with a new proposal. Or ideally just drop it. Further, I don't think there is consensus about removing about removing "incidental material" other than it's level of offensiveness should not be one of the reasons to remove it. And I think NOTCENSORED already says that, though if someone has a wording change to more clearly get that idea across... Hobit (talk) 15:07, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, well… it's exactly that attitude why we need an RfC; no other way to deal with issues where editors are mired in their own convictions.
This whole discussion reminds me of an old Poli-Sci joke:

A reporter is out doing "Man On The Street' interviews. He walks up to a passerby and asks the question being aired on the night's broadcast: "Excuse me sir. Please tell me what you think about the problem of ignorance and apathy in the voting public." The passerby snaps back angrily "I don't know and I don't care!"

It is to laugh… --Ludwigs2 15:35, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The only part of the argument that is weighted is for offense reasons. As pointed out multiple times when other reasons are used to remove images they are discussed at length until a decision is made that most if not all editors can live with. An image does not need to be "valuable enough" it needs to have value to the subject in question. Attempting to indicate it is required for an image to do even more than it's own counterpart in other similar articles is arguing that offense trumps substance unless it is even more useful than standard images the community uses. As long as an image has use there is no reason for removal unless there is something else wrong with it (such as POV or copyright infringement.) Tivanir2 (talk) 16:02, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also of note no one has tried to defend the idea that incidental material needs to stay in an article. The problem is things have been labeled incidental, and even when giving reasons as to why they aren't are dismissed. In order to prove something is incidental you would need consensus just like you do now. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:05, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Let's not get into debates about what was and wasn't addressed now.
To some extend I agree with Hobit that if we were to start another RFC, it would be not at least until after the new year; this would give time for us to prepare a stronger RFC to start instead of trying to jump on it now; it would also give time for attitudes to calm down. Again, right now, I don't know even know for sure what the right question is to ask for such an RFC; are we looking for clarification on policy, to change policy, to implement new rules for objectionable material, a process for resolving issues on objectionable materials, or the like? (Don't answer this question now, please). If everyone can agree a more central discussion (eg considered NOTCENSORED but possibly considering changes to other policy and guideline pages), then we can set up discussion as to what to address, and then have the RFC in full with a non-involved admin on board to close it. There's no need to rush if we're trying to make a general statement on how WP should handle objectionable images that will last for years. --MASEM (t) 16:19, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me personally. I would also suggest a period where people ask questions if they are confused by suggested changes. This way we ensure everyone gets exactly what each part of the RFC would mean. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:04, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)I think this would involve also WP:Offensive material, WP:Lead (as there have been those who say certain images shouldn't nessasarily be lead images, but might still be okay in an article as a whole) and WP:NPOV (since its not clear how it applies to offensiveness in images). Those, plus this page, are the big 5 that could be involved. I think the biggest issues brought up are:
  1. how NPOV deals with controversial images (its not clear as I mentioned before, I read NPOV and get entirely different perspective than some in this discussion)
  2. whether RSes can and should have any impact on how we display content (again tied to NPOV)
  3. whether there should be more emphasis on not shocking the reader and placing less controversial images in the lead of certain articles
  4. whether NOTCENSORCED can be used to defend images from being replaced with another suitable image that may be less offensive (such as for a nude image in pregnancy one that focuses on the relevant portions discussed in the image rather than an image of an entirely nude woman).
I do not think we need an RfC for incidental images. I think we could go ahead and change that as it appears we have a consensus that NOTCENSORED does not grant protection to incidental images. What is incidental is not for this page to describe in detail, but we could say something like "adds little to no value to the article".∞陣内Jinnai 17:13, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
After the New Year is fine with me as well - slow and deliberative is good. And yes, Jinnai, I agree that there's consensus ti edit in the point about incidental material. I'd do it myself, but I'm afraid that would be interpreted as partisan.
I'm going to make a potentially odd-sounding suggestion: should we open a MedCab mediation solely on the issue of crafting an RfC statement? It sounds a little odd to use one dispute resolution mechanism to settle differences about another dispute resolution mechanism, but the RfC question might actually be amenable to mediation in a way the deeper policy question likely isn't. If nothing else, informal mediation would give some structure to the discussion and an independent mediator to talk us through some of the sticking points. Just a thought…
@Medcab, not a bad idea.
Just throwing something out there. If there is a substantial percentage of the community who truly believe that offensiveness has no role to play in image choice how can we reach a compromise? Maybe Medcab can answer that question, but I can't think of a way beyond agreeing to disagree. In which case I would say a straw poll would seem to me to be the only way to do it. Thoughts? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:26, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If MedCab can frame an RfC question or questions such that everyone understands what is being asked and can agree on what a result either way would mean, then that would be more useful than another round of this. Whether we really need yet another attempt to change policy, I'm not convinced of. It would need to be in at least 3 months time, and preferably six months or more, otherwise it will be seen as forum shopping and attempts at victory by attrition. Whether that is you intention or not, that's how it will be seen.
The possible outcomes are (1) there is consensus that offensiveness does not play any role in image choice. (2) there is consensus that it plays some limited role (e.g. when choosing image placement rather than selection), (3) there is consensus that offensiveness is a key criteria for image choice, or (4) there is no consensus.
If the outcome is 1 then no compromise is required. If the outcome is 2 there will need to be compromise about how big a role it plays and how we determine offensiveness. If outcome is 3 then only how offensiveness is determined needs to be agreed on. If the outcome is (4) then this defaults to the status quo, which is the same as option 1 - this is the least ideal though.
I think if there is an RfC a summary of the arguments for and against should be written by a neutral party.
For an example of a discussion where summarising the options done by a non-neutral party has not helped diffuse the situation at all see Talk:Yoghurt (warning, long and vitriolic). For an example where an unclear RfC produced no helpful result, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. Thryduulf (talk) 18:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thryduulf, two things:
  • Don't beat the 'forum shopping' drum just as a delaying tactic; that's a shitty thing to do. There's no forum shopping here, just a very contentious issue. A month or so is fine, if we can work up a decent proposal in that amount of time.
  • You've really made a poor assessment of possible outcomes: you've effectively excluded what I think is the most reasonable outcome. a proper breakdown (excluding the 'no consensus' option, which isn't a result, but a lack thereof) is:
    1. that conventional social mores and well-established cultural beliefs play no role in image choice.
    2. that conventional social mores and well-established cultural beliefs are respected where we can do so without lowering the informativeness of the article.
    3. that conventional social mores and well-established cultural beliefs are a key criteria for image choice.
    honestly, #3 is a red herring - no one sensible wants that as a rule (and I really wish you'd stop asserting that that's what we want, because it's insulting when you imply we're that stupid). The choice is between the first options. let's keep the issue straight. --Ludwigs2 19:38, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Conventional" and "well-established"? How would we know what those are? Why on earth would we treat them as privileged even if we could know? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would have thought its fairly obvious - and something that we could figure out by looking at our sources. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop discussing what the RFC should be doing; I am looking to see if there's support for running a fresh RFC at a centralized location sometime after the new year? We will worry about exactly what will go into it when we construct it. --MASEM (t) 19:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can we ban all posts of the form "I am not personally offended by X, but we must make allowance for those who are"? It's an obvious fall-back, defensive position available to conservatives, and easily leads to suspicions of dishonesty. It's hard to argue against because those presenting that position can always say they are simply thinking of others, and not pushing a POV themselves. HiLo48 (talk) 19:50, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You cannot ban any particular argument.
@Masem: I do think my last point is fine to work on now. I don't see anyone arguing that NOTCENSORED should be a stalwart defense against incidental maternal.∞陣内Jinnai 19:59, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The trick there is defining "incidental". We've already had a bit of game-playing on this angle. Tarc (talk) 20:24, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. There is no consensus for such a change at the moment. Hobit (talk) 20:34, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Tarc & Hobit: We do not have to do no such thing if we can't come to an agreement about exactly what the difference is. WP:N does not clearly define "significant" - that is decided on a case-by-case basis. It will likely be hammered out based on what wikt:incidental actually means, but we don't have to be specific if there is agreement that incidental matieral shouldn't be protected, just not where to draw the line. Lack of saying this essentially says "NOTCENSORED does support incidental material" because there is no restrictions on material beyond vandalism or shock site.∞陣内Jinnai 22:47, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We do what best illustrates and explains the issue--no matter if the material is "incidental" by some definition or not. Period. It's a pretty easy model. We don't consider offensiveness when determining content. That doesn't mean NOTCENSORED should protect offensive material that would be removed on some other basis anyways (like not helping to illustrate the topic for example, or NFCC issues). But the addition of "incidental" implies that the standard to keep material that someone considers to be offensive is somehow higher. And that I disagree with. We don't go out of our way to offend, but we also don't go our of our way to not offend--it just shouldn't be an issue either way. Hobit (talk) 16:16, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We also don't go out our way to include WP:TRIVIAl info in articles except here simply because its in the form of an image rather than text. We can include as many trivial images as wanted now assuming they do not fall afoul of NFCC. NOTCENSORED is used as a defense when these incidental images are attempted to be removed because they add little to know value. I am not talking here about offensiveness; I am talking about relevance, ie the same thing we apply to text. We do not apply those same standards to images because of the NOTCENSORED hammer used. There does seem to be consensus that in terms of relevance, images need to apply the same standards as text for whether they add something non-trivial to the article which is still fairly low benchmark.∞陣内Jinnai 17:05, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are saying the same thing. If an image doesn't add anything to an article, it's quite reasonable to remove it. But whether or not someone is offended by that image shouldn't be relevant, one way or the other, to the decision to remove it or keep the image. Do you agree with that? Hobit (talk) 20:48, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but NOTCENSORED has been used (at times with success) to defend those kind of images. That's why I believe adding a short statement that it doesn't protect removal of images there (or someplace else at NOT if you think it better) should be done.∞陣内Jinnai 20:54, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That some guideline or policy is used in a way that is contrary to what it actually says is pretty common. NOTNEWS and NOTPLOT both having had similar problems. I'd not object to a statement that clarifies that being offensive is neither a reason to delete nor to keep an image. But the incidental language is unacceptable to me due to me as that seems to say something quite different (if offensive the image must be at least this important otherwise we remove it). Hobit (talk) 11:43, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's quite the point: it's more like "if the image contains something that's offensive, then the offensive part of the image has to actually be relevant to the article". So consider File:Reflexion-rr.jpg. This image shows (1) a car window and (2) most of a naked woman. This image is okay for Reflectoporn: both the nudity and the shiny surface of the car window are relevant to the subject of the article. This same image is not okay for Car window: the nudity—the "offensive" aspect of this two-subject photograph—is completely irrelevant. I believe that we will all agree (except possibly a few pro-nudism POV pushers or exhibitionists) that we are not "censoring" anything by requiring that the images in Car window contain no irrelevant or "incidental" offensive material. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:48, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One thing we could do as part of such an RfC is make sure that we stop lying about Wikipedia not being censored. Of course it is censored. The policy that details how this censorship works in practice is WP:OFFICE. At WP:OFFICE#Currently under scrutiny you can find a table listing the articles that are currently subject to such censorship. In some cases {{pp-office}} is used to make readers and editors aware of the censorship.

That's just the most official form of censorship, of course. I recently got a number of perfectly reasonable, normal, harmless and relevant talk page posts censored under the pretext that BLP applies to talk page comments with full strength, as if something I say in our internal discussions had the same effect as a claim in someone's biography. I was surprised by the large number of editors who supported that instance of unnecessary censorship. As another example, per WP:BLPEL and WP:ELBLP we censor links to websites that incite hatred against a living person even if they are so notable that they are discussed in the person's biography. Hans Adler 20:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yep. And I wish most of that didn't happen. But the NOTs are rarely absolute. We aren't paper, but we sometimes act like it (deleting sourced material for other reasons). We aren't a news source, but we certainly document news stories. The list goes on. It it a lie? I'd say it's more accurate to say that absolutes rarely work in reality. We have our goals, but sometimes reality intrudes. Hobit (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is a bit intellectually dishonest, on par with saying "we don't really have freedom of speech since we're not allowed to yell FIRE! in a crowded theatre". That the project actually practices a bit of editorial discretion and *gasp* ethics when dealing with biographies of living people, or that the WMF needs to step in when directly dealing with an outside complaint does not mean "we allow censorship". So please, stop the theatrics. Tarc (talk) 20:43, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you're arguing that strong ethics are appropriate for BLP's it hardly seems consistent to say we should have no ethics applied to any other topic.
Additionally if you blocked Wikipedia from being accessed in the UK you could have a much less strong BLP policy. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is perhaps the most ridiculous bullshit seen in near 2 months of discussion here. The desire to provide information free of puritanical censorship doesn't have a fucking thing to do with ridding the project of poorly-sourced or unsourced material on living people. Honestly. eraser, clue up. Tarc (talk) 21:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The BLP policy is definitely a limit on free speech as its as much stricter than the rules surrounding content in other articles. Its also almost certainly as strict as it is down to English libel law - source, source 2. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again, we are getting off track. I'm pretty sure that we could close this entire discussion as "no consensus to change NOTCENSORED at this time.", and trying to argue what should be changed is beating the dead horse. I am suggesting a month downtime to come back at this fresh with an organized RFC to determine the right approach then and only then of how to structure it to make the most effective use of time. It is pointless to argue more on the matter as it stands until we know what we're actually aiming to achieve. It would be hoped that those involved in individual image discussions to take a similar breather until such a time that a more concrete policy/guideline change can be established. --MASEM (t) 21:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm certainly willing to listen to what people think needs to be changed. But it really shouldn't be a rehash of what has already been proposed. And I'm not seeing anything new being proposed (let alone anything I'd agree with). But perhaps something will show up. Hobit (talk) 21:50, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If I may maybe make the discussion to start on the 8th instead of right after the new year since people tend to take vacations during the holiday season. Also is this the place it is going to be discussed at once the new RFC begins? Tivanir2 (talk) 21:57, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tivanir2, don't sweat over the exact date. doubtless it will go on for a good long time after it begins, and if it's structured properly there won't be a lot of cross talk, so people will be able to enter their perspective a few days late without any negative impact. remember, this is a long-haul decision, so there's no need to respond to everything in real time. --Ludwigs2 03:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also make certain this be placed on the notice ticker considering the issues with "not truth" being claimed to be not advertised enough for a core major policy change.∞陣内Jinnai 17:10, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If the discussion can be closed right now as being "no consensus" then it should be closed as being no consensus. This is unlikely to change in a month, nor is it likely that anything of sustenance will be debated, because this whole "RfC" is a red herring. NOTCENSORED does not protect incidental images, this is something that has been explained several times to Ludwig on the Pregnancy article, and I'm sure, on the Muhammad article. But in neither of these cases are the images he cites incidental. And this not the first time he's attempted to make a change to the NOTCENSORED policy over the offensiveness of the image. --XomicTalk 02:46, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
IMNSHO, calling this "no consensus to change" is charitable. Seriously. This won't pass. Please stop beating the dead horse and allow everyone to get back to doing something productive. These consistent attempts at wearing down opposition in the hopes that you can get a balance of numbers at a single moment in time has long since become wearisome. Resolute 05:00, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I look at discussions like this similar to what goes on over at RFA... For years we've been saying that RfA is Broken and needs to be fixed. Probably 95% of the people who are familiar with RfA agree with that. Yet despite the fact that everybody agrees that RfA is broken, no meaningful (or even not so meaningful) change has occurred since I became an admin 3 or 4 years ago. If we can't affect meaningful change on a process that EVERYBODY agrees is broken, what hope do we have of affecting meaningful change on a section that not everybody agrees is broken?---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 16:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think overall the project is moving in the right direction. I've seen a reasonable amount of stuff change. Probably the issue at RfA is that no-one has made a serious proposal to move forward. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:03, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"no-one has mad a serious proposal to move forward"---obviously you haven't spent much time over there. The number of tasks forces and sup projects that have started up over the past 3 years to come up with a better way cannot be counted on your hands... the number of trial balloons with various ideas of how to change could not be counted on your hands and toes... Suffice it to say, I'm a little jaded when it comes to making meaningful change. Meaningful change here comes incrementally or not at all.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 20:02, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:04, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a diary?

Maybe it would be useful to include something like: WP is NOTDIARY? I have just tagged several tennisplayer articles for being overdetailed, e.g. Andy Murray , but the problem also exists in other sports articles. Their career or season chapters includes so much trivia details that the articles become all but unreadable. Virtually every opponent they faced during the season gets mentioned, often including the score of the match. Sometimes even complaint about slow courts after loss of a match, or little injuries, and other daily trivia things like that. Hence the article become like a diary, and editors (not rarely fans) just go on adding to it week after week. MakeSense64 (talk) 10:47, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like a combination of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. If so then I'd say it's covered already, although you may want to add at WP:NOTDIARY shortcut to one of those sections. Thryduulf (talk) 12:26, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I didn't know I can edit on this page. I did mention WP:NOTNEWS on the wikiproject Tennis, but I think NOTDIARY would be more clear for some members who are too eager to add any daily news about their favorite sports star. MakeSense64 (talk) 12:50, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, thought this section was WP is not a dairy. Jheald (talk) 17:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly feels like it is at times! Thryduulf (talk) 17:24, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • On October 11, someone added a fact.
  • On November 22, another fact was added
  • On December 5, Resolute lost his mind over these inane additions.
This is an unfortunate byproduct of being the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. It is good in a way as it shows potential new editors how easy it is to make a difference on an article. But, it takes a serious and committed writer to clean up the prose and remove the trivial additions. Resolute 02:09, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Wikipedia is not a learning or teaching tool

I propose we add this subsequent to conversations taking place both via email and here [19]. Lots of students have began editing and we need to make it clear to the WMF that students are not here primarily to learn but to improve Wikipedia. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:08, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see where you're coming from but I think the idea is flawed. We have encouraged this type of program before as long as the net result is still of benefit to WP (we are getting new and improved articles), and the students benefit by learning how to do proper research and cite material. So it's not that we aren't a learning tool, but that's not our primary focus. I think the aspects covered by that conversation fall more under the existing WP:NOTWEBHOST. --MASEM (t) 00:56, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Surely, Wikipedia is a learning tool (?). And if there is learning, there must be teaching also. --FormerIP (talk) 00:58, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Wikipedia is one of many tools available these days for both teaching and learning. Sure, it doesn't look like a traditional teacher, but it still plays a role. HiLo48 (talk) 01:03, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Call Guiness, but HiLo and I agree here. ;-)---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 01:29, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What's meant is "Wikipedia is not an institutional learning and teaching tool". I agree with this. Yes, people learn, but it's not a tool for students to earn academic credit. See bottom of this talkpage. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 01:34, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agree with the above sentiments. WP is for everyone, and we ought not to make special adaptations for one segment of the population. Of course, schools and universities are places where "becoming a Wikipediaholic" can and needs to be encouraged. Teachers and students are welcome to help shape how we do things generally, but otherwise need to work within our parameters. Having said that, I take no view on how a given professor chooses to publicly measure participation effort; I would trust him/her to put subtler evaluation methods in place and keep track of the quality of participation. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To Seb az86556, we're not here to help professors set a circirculum for education, but they are certainly free to make an assignment about editing Wikipedia within our standards and practices. As long as what is being done towards their academic scores is not disrupting WP, we're completely fine with that. --MASEM (t) 02:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, and I hope you also agree that we ought not to have to suffer grad students (or any other students for that matter) making 'experimental' posts here to satisfy what xhe may consider part of his/her assignment. We already have enough visitors making changes simply because they can. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:16, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My only point with this was that we need to keep everyone encyclopedia focused and this focus should not be lost. Yes Wikipedia can and has been used with great benefit as part of classroom assignments and if these are a benefit to the encyclopedia they should be encouraged / supported.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:56, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not adapted specifically for use in classes. I don't think you really meant to be that hilariously cynical as the heading, did you? Be——Critical 21:00, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is the difference between being "educational" which is central to the concept of an encyclopedia, and being a "learning or teaching tool"? I can understand an editor's frustration when students, as part of a class project, substitute in their "revised versions" of articles full of misconceptions and poor grammar. But that happens without class projects as well. Education is not the problem, but is the solution. --Bejnar (talk) 22:02, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
the problem with conscript editors is that their focus is hitting the grading criteria not improving the articles - I've been involved in a few of those recently and it's a bit of a car-crash, they stick in copy-vios, they constantly revert to their shitty versions - anything to make sure they hit the word count they need to hit. --Cameron Scott (talk) 22:40, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information

Since the RfC seemed to have a consensus that incidental material should not be protected, I would like to add to WP:INDISCRIMINATE.

Collect of incidental material. While Wikipedia tries to be an exhaustive source of information, including text, images, audio and video, for each topic, information that has only marginal relevance to an article may be removed. Just because certain information may be deemed incidental for one article, such as a broad-topic article, does not mean it is incidental for another, such as a spin off article that covers a section of a broad-topic in more detail. Not every detail of a subject needs some kind of representation.

There is nothing I can find on the current page that states this. If someone can show me where it is already, please do so. I know there is NPOV, but that can be hard to completely remove certain material unless its WP:FRINGE standards and the info may not be violating NPOV, such as a diagram.∞陣内Jinnai 19:57, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Err, I don't think there is any possible way you can claim that RFC revealed a consensus that "incidental material should not be protected". Resolute 20:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the RfC even revealed a workable definition of "incidental material". --FormerIP (talk) 20:09, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There doesn't need to be a workable one. We don't have workable definitions for a number of Wikipedian terms that are used by policies and guidelines. A lot of them are done on a case-by-case basis. This just makes it clear you can't cite WP:NOTCENSORED to defend incidental material which i do believe the RfC did achieve consensus for.∞陣内Jinnai 20:15, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you think the RFC came to a consensus get an uninvolved administrator to close it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:19, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We already have WP:IMAGES#Pertinence_and_encyclopedic_nature. What would this proposal add except an apparently different - though unclear - standard and a great deal of potential for confusion? --FormerIP (talk) 20:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like a bid to create a first-mover advantage - changing the onus from the person who makes the WP:BOLD removal to gain support for their position per WP:BRD to one where people who wish to restore the status quo have to try and generate a new consensus. Beyond that, it is unnecessary policy creep. Even by his own argument - we don't need such a policy addition. Issues can be, and are, discussed on a case-by-case basis. That is how it should be. Resolute 20:34, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, it sure did not achieve consensus. At best it was no consensus, leaning toward the opposing viewpoint. As such, I oppose your proposal. Resolute 20:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I could have sworn sometime in the last 3 years, Jimmy Wales and the Foundation issued some statement that effectively said something to this end, leading to a purge of (basically) naked photographs from Commons that lacked immediate use within any project. If this did happen, there's no need for this statement, since that would apply to en.wiki too. --MASEM (t) 20:35, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're only half mistaken. Jimbo did go and clear out a bunch of images, causing a massive furor in the process. Such that, I believe, he no longer makes administrative actions on Commons. The result was Commons:Sexual content, a proposed policy that has twice failed to gain consensus. So no, there was no foundation action, and no, that action does not apply to en.wiki. Resolute 20:44, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I knew there was something but could not immediately recall the fallout, so doesn't apply. --MASEM (t) 20:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Career statistics articles

I recently started doing some cleanup in tennis articles and I found a lot of articles of the type "<player name> career statistics". You can find them linked from this category page: Category:Tennis career statistics.
I wonder how to proceed with them, and I don't want to offend the editors who probably spent considerable time creating these pages.
So my question is: do these pages violate WP:NOTSTATSBOOK ?
I looked at articles of several baseball players, another sports with lots of player stats, and I couldn't even find a stats section in them, much less standalone stats articles.
Would appreciate some input and how to best proceed with these articles. MakeSense64 (talk) 07:55, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I really like the statistics pages. At first they were on the main pages but have since been moved off on their own and I think it works much better. It does not violate nostatsbook from what I can see. They are not indiscriminate, most are not sprawling, they are neat, and they use tables for the lengthy lists. I think being an individual sport makes things a lot different than other major sports. Heck, for anyone who has won a Major they get to have pages such as 2008 Roger Federer tennis season. That's a lot of players in tennis history that we have to make pages for. Roger has 11 such pages, in addition to his main page and statistic page, with more on the way.... and we have to add those for every player in history who won a Major. It's gonna take awhile and it's why it's tough to take the time to worry about a qualifying draw page amongst all the other things that need to be done. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:33, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is a significant difference between 2008 Roger Federer tennis season, an article that has a lot of text with some tables at the end, and pages like Nadia Petrova career statistics, with virtually no text, just 60 kB of stats and tables. MakeSense64 (talk) 09:02, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is a big difference, and Roger has a career stat page also. I just find them invaluable for information and I've been told the same by people who work at the LA Times and ESPN. Unknowns who have small main pages have their stats on the same page. Once you become popular and have a lengthy main page it works and looks much better to have a separate stat page. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:10, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So you think we should change WP:NOTSTATSBOOK to allow for this kind of stats articles? Because that's of course the question I am asking here: what does WP:NOTSTATSBOOK imply for tennis (and other sports) articles? I see the stats on tennis pages show no sources other than the WTA tour and ATP tour websites from which they have been derived. Maybe we also have to be careful for OR where these articles are reworking the stats into various kinds of derived tables. MakeSense64 (talk) 09:26, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, in reading notstatsbook I don't think it's in violation of that guideline per what I wrote in the first answering. As for sourcing that is always something to watch out for. Many have already been sourced on wiki from the individual tournaments pages and simply added to a nice neat table for a particular player. And the ATP and WTA websites are excellent sources for each and every match. They are tough to dig through on the original web pages but are nice and neat (usually) on wikipedia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:50, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am a fan of having stats in the main article on an athlete because of the prose that covers them. However a page that is only statistics and zero prose is exactly what is meant in NOTSTATS when mentioning that lists of statistics without context should not be used. The prose is the context needed. -DJSasso (talk) 20:00, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And you're not likely to go to the stat page unless you first read the context on the main page. With the main Federer page at close to 90k and the stat page at 132k it's a nice split. Many readers will be happy with the main page summaries but some will need more detailed facts. If the main space with stats can fit in about 100k by all means we should keep them together. If you feel that each table needs more prose added to it then certainly add more prose. NOTSTATS says: Sprawling lists of stats MAY be confusing. Not all stats are sprawling and not all are confusing. It does not say "lists of statistics without context should not be used", it says "articles should contain sufficient explanatory text to put statistics within the article in their proper context for a general reader". The main article sets that table well in Federer's case but it would be way too large per other wiki guidelines on page length. NOTSTATS also says to "consider using tables to enhance the readability of lengthy data lists" and that has also been done to a large degree to keep them neat and unsprawling. Trying to summarize each tournament in Roger Federers career would be a nightmare, but compiling those stats in orderly tables that can be easily thumbed through is a big advantage to our readers. We've tried to give prose and stats in a nice neat package that can be found nowhere else in an easily read format. We try to weed out things like how many times Roger has broken a racket while playing or his different styles of tennis shoes. We try to give readers what they need when they hear and read things in the news. We've simply split the page in the most reasonable manner to cover readers who need a little less or a little more and it's been done in a style that is much more pleasing to the eye and where the vital information is the easiest to find imho. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:28, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

in general

How about tables of the key financial data of a company, year by year, from Reliable sources? How about an article titled: "Stock price of General Motors", discussing the major variations in text format? How about a page "Stock price of General Motors, 2009.", giving the day to day hi/low/final and vol. numbers? This seems exactly the same as the detailed sports statistics. How about a table "General Motors vehicle sales by model by year"; with separate charts for each country they sell in? Or to take a field in which I'm actually interested, how about a page " University of California Enrollment and degrees awarded, ", with a year to year table back to the 19th century? Just as with sports, we're providing information that might otherwise be hard to find. (At present, we use for the articles most recent year only). How is any of this any less encyclopedic or less important than detailed sports statistics? I'm not opposing the idea, but if we support doing one, we should do the other. Perhaps NOT DATA wasn't a good idea in the first place: there is no actual separating line between encyclopedic information and statistics. And if difficulty of presentation is the problem, perhaps all of it should go on subpages (we haven't activated subpages in article space, but the capability is there in MediaWiki, DGG ( talk ) 05:13, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is a line, but it is a very fuzzy one. Day-by-day performances in whatever field is inappropriate, but yearly summaries aren't. What I think is important is to consider how the larger field in question considers the broad stats. Take a baseball player; it's not the player's batting average, RBI, and the like for a single game that's historically examined (with rare exceptions) but his year-by-year play. Its understanding what is generally considered the usual historical summary of data for a field that we should be mimicking. Yes, you can likely break the data into even more detail but that's not our place to do so. --MASEM (t) 05:27, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
that seems a reasonable distinction. So I assume that my examples "Stock price of General Motors", discussing the major variations in text format, "General Motors vehicle sales by model by year", and " University of California Enrollment and degrees awarded, per year " would in your opinion be viable articles. DGG ( talk ) 23:21, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But where will this end? We could as well have articles like 2011 for Angela Merkel, and fill it with every meeting she attends, every important person she meets (when and where), and what she said in press conferences. Or 2010 for Lady Gaga, listing every concert she gave, what songs she performed that day, what dress she wore, and what she said in news conference before and afterwards. We would have no problem finding reliable news sources for it. But I don't see that kind of content forks very often, only in sports we have them. Isn't that also giving undue weight to sports?
Articles like 2008 Roger Federer tennis season (and there are 8 more of them), are long lists of day-by-day performances rather than yearly summaries. Articles like Nadia Petrova career statistics have no prose at all, only results and stats. How does this line up with guidelines like WP:NOTSTATSBOOK, WP:NOTNEWSPAPER and WP:IINFO?
The argument pro these articles is that the main article would be too long if we keep all these seasons and stats in.
Is it OK to have statsbook pages as long as we have some prose to go with it?
If exceptions are made for sports persons and articles, then I think it should be clarified better in the guidelines on this page. MakeSense64 (talk) 07:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the idea of subpages is a sound one for the kind of topics that generate a lot of numbers, results, stats...
Sports..; stock market, forex and commodity data; lists of corporate financial data from quarterly filings. What about day-by-day weather data and stats for various places ? Or weekly charts and ratings for music and film?
If we have articles containing day-by-day details and results of Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, then how do we justify not having similar day-by-day articles about the stock price of Apple Inc., or articles listing the daily weather stats for New York 2011?
Perhaps the NOTDATA guideline has been superceded or needs significant rephrasing. Some topics happen to generate a lot of data. MakeSense64 (talk) 08:24, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Someone needs to explain to me exactly how subpages work. How different will it actually be when a reader sees a link to a subpage as opposed to a link to a different page? It certainly won't save wiki any space since the subject matter takes up room whether it's a subpage or not. Is it really that different except that the link will go to Roger Federer/Career Stats instead of Roger Federer Career stats? As for other musings those yearly Roger Federer pages aren't day by day as in when he eats and pisses. They are rather match by match details. And if you have a detailed prose weather page about Los Angeles that has gotten to 100k then I don't think there would be anything wrong with having a subpage that has several lengthy charts on monthly rainfall averages, weekly temperature averages, average days over 100, etc...
The other thing to remember is that this is a general guideline and there is no wiki judge that determines right and wrong of implementation. Right and wrong is decided by consensus. I had actually argued against so many yearly tennis pages but I was crushed by consensus. But once consensus was established, as I do with all articles, I follow it fairly rigidly. I argued against the low level of notability (though certainly not as low as Ice Hockey). Again consensus washed me out with the tide. But I'm cool with that because that's how it's supposed to work here. Also each project guideline is considered far more knowledgeable about their subject matter than any general guideline can be. I have no idea about what should be in video game articles but the video game project editors probably do (or they should). So maybe the general guideline is fine but we have to remember that it won't work for everything. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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