User talk:Doniago

Welcome to my Talk page. Please note the following- I may not respond to any un-civil comments left here; in fact, I may summarily delete them. If you don't trust yourself to speak civilly, please feel free to chill out for a bit, and come back here when you feel you can speak to me civilly. You may wish to consider whether a discussion would be more productive at a specific article's Talk page, where other editors will more easily be able to view the conversation and offer feedback. Before starting a thread to discuss any removals of unsourced material from articles, please review WP:V and WP:BURDEN. I will expect any discussions to take those policies into consideration. Also, please note that I have already been the subject of an ANI discussion regarding my removal of uncited material; I will expect any discussions of such here to go beyond what was raised during that discussion. Please be aware that just because something is handled a certain way elsewhere on Wikipedia does not mean it is okay for it to be repeated; it is possible the matter was handled improperly at the location being used as a precedent. For more information, see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Thank you for your consideration and civility!

How do you handle unsourced material? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kensternation (talk • contribs) 21:57, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on the circumstances. If I can identify who inserted it and it's a recent contribution, I'll generally undo it and leave the editor a note, usually based off one of the standard templates (and then, usually the people I'm notifying are new'ish editors and the template provides a number of useful links). If I can't identify who inserted it or it's not a recent contribution I'll tag the material and usually give it at least a couple of months before I take any other action. Doniago (talk) 22:04, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why not put in a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed? Wouldn't that be a little less disruptive, as the information can stay and the editor can either fill in the citation or delete it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kensternation (talk • contribs) 13:20, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I'd do in the second case, but it's been my experience that many editors (especially IPs) don't necessarily notice that their information has been tagged, much less are inclined to delete it on their own initiative, and my view is that it's preferable to limit the amount of unsourced information in an article, even unsourced information that's been tagged for needing a citation. Presumably the person most likely to have a source for information is the editor who added it initially, and removing their information and notifying them provides them with notice that they shouldn't be adding unsourced information to begin with (WP:BURDEN), and with the resources they need, via links, to properly source information going forward. In short, it's a learning experience.

In any event, I don't consider it disruptive to remove unsourced information, nor do I believe there is any policy that states that removing unsourced information is a disruptive behavior. On the other hand, policy does support an editor's right to remove unsourced information at any time. In other words, by tagging one is technically being "nicer" than one is strictly required to be. Doniago (talk) 13:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability "It must be possible to attribute all information in Wikipedia to reliable, published sources that are appropriate for the content in question. " Which means, imho, that not all facts have to have a source.

It continues to state "However, in practice it is only necessary to provide inline citations for quotations and for any information that has been challenged or that is likely to be challenged.[1]" Which means, again imho, it is not required to have ANY sources as long as the facts have not been challenged or likely to be challenged.

So, let me ask you another question: Why would a fact such as an amusement park not charging an entrance fee (which started this whole mess) be challenged? Were you challenging the fact? If yes then please challenge it and ask for a citation, if not wouldn't it be simpler (forget nicer) to just leave it alone? While at it why not remove the statement before which was also unsourced? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kensternation (talk • contribs) 15:18, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, it doesn't matter why someone chooses to challenge an unsourced statement; what matters is that the statement has been challenged...heck, the simple fact that the statement doesn't have a source, to me, seems like reasonable justification for challenging it.

Please review WP:MINREF. Removing a statement is a legitimate form of challenging it. You may not like it, and perhaps it's not the "nicest" way of handling it, but policy allows an editor to remove any unsourced information at any time. In short, while there was nothing specifically "wrong" with adding this information without a source to begin with, as soon as it was challenged the burden was on you (or any editor who wished to include the information) to provide one. If I hadn't known that you were the editor who added the information I would probably have tagged it. As-is, why tag it and wait 2-3 months for a citation that may never show up?

You're welcome to disagree with how I handle unsourced information, but as I've noted previously, policy supports my approach even if it isn't necessarily "best practice" or "nice". But then, given our past interactions I'm not convinced that "nice" is one of your foremost concerns.

Editors are not required to remove unsourced information, so asking why I didn't remove something seems like a silly question. You're welcome to remove it yourself if you'd like, or if you'd like me to review the article for unsourced information that I feel should be removed, please let me know and I will do so when time permits. Doniago (talk) 15:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"...given our past interactions I'm not convinced that "nice" is one of your foremost concerns" Ouch that almost sounded noncivil. I am just glad you admit your way is not very nice.

As for asking why you didn't delete something being a silly question, my point was it seems a bit silly to have deleted what I had added, and once you were being silly you might as well be full on silly, and delete everything that doesn't have a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kensternation (talk • contribs) 19:55, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Given the current overall sad state of the article (it's been tagged since 2009), I'm not really inclined to make small changes when I think a much larger overhaul is needed (put another way - why should I delete one old sentence when any substantive overhaul is likely to deal with it anyway?). That being said, I'm happy to do what I can to keep the article from deteriorating further, such as with the addition of unsourced information. Hopefully at some point a motivated editor will bring the article up to a higher standard. Doniago (talk) 20:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Doniago: I understand that wikipedia can be self referenced as source, doen't it? --Sully76 (talk) 13:19, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Sully, please note that generally new Talk page threads should be started at the bottom of a page. As to your question, that's absolutely a negative - WP:CIRCULAR covers this, but the short answer is that Wikipedia can't be self-referenced because the underlying article being used as a reference could be changed or even deleted, in which case the original source would be lost. Rather than linking to the article that has the source, copy the actual source into the article with the unsourced statement. Cheers. Doniago (talk) 13:28, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On the Taylor Kitsch page, there were two images on there the older one you were referring to was this one that was originally there was this file: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TaylorKitschFeb12.jpg an image that I uploaded months ago. Then someone uploaded a file was this file: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taylor_Kitsch,_2012.jpg - which didn't have correct permissions or source. Today I uploaded a picture from this month from the Savages Premiere from Monday June 25 2012 and the image I uploaded was latest and correct permissions & source on the file. So please can you carefully follow edits next time. Please keep the latest image file from the Savages premiere dated June 25, 2012. Link to latest image: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TaylorKitschJun2012.jpg Many Thanks & Kindest Regards. ~ Randomgurlx (talk) - 5:41 PM GMT - 29 June 2012 —Preceding undated comment added 16:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss at the article's Talk page so that interested editors can weigh in. Thank you. Doniago (talk) 16:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand and thank you. - Randomgurlx (talk) - 5:56 PM (GMT) - 29 June 2012

As was my edit on the gate(movie)article. The snare (talk) 07:54, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

True enough, but as you've made some edits where your intent hasn't been clear, providing a summary might help to avoid misunderstandings. Cheers. Doniago (talk) 15:17, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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I am not going to make the modification to the Independence Day movie page, you win.

SO STOP TELLING ME TO DISCUSS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!173.76.119.10 (talk) 23:28, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you're going on about, since I haven't left a message for you in at least two days. But if it makes you feel better to yell at me, I suppose that's a win. Doniago (talk) 01:49, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I went to the page for Hallelujah (Leonard Cohen Song) the other day and updated the "Other Cover Versions" section to say that Marcy Playground will have a cover of this song on their upcoming album, but when I looked today, it was gone. I noticed that you removed it because I needed to "establish significance". I'm new to Wikipedia (well, the editing part anyway), and I don't understand everything yet, so will you please explain this to me? What I wrote was true, and it was in the correct section... Thanks.

Zdase27 (talk) 13:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Zdase, thanks for getting in touch. WP:IPC, while it's an essay rather than policy or guidelines, covers this in some detail, but the gist is that Wikipedia articles should not contain "indiscriminate" lists. In this case, if we're going to discuss covers of "Hallelujah", we should ensure that the covers are considered significant in some manner; the best way to do this is to provide a third-party source that has discussed the cover. For instance, if I record a cover of "Hallelujah" myself, that could theoretically be added to the list of covers, but it would hardly be significant. Even if the person doing the cover is themselves significant, that doesn't mean that the cover itself is. I hope this all makes sense, but please let me know if you have more questions! Doniago (talk) 13:33, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense to me. Thanks for clearing this up. Zdase27 (talk) 14:32, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The_Interloafer (talk · contribs) is requesting that “Triborough Bridge” be moved back to its old title of “Robert F. Kennedy Bridge”. (Again.) You voiced an opinion during the last move discussion (a few weeks ago, I know), so I wanted to bring it to your attention. This new discussion is at Talk:Triborough Bridge#This article needs to be renamed. 142.255.89.109 (talk) 22:36, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The references you required were in the articles I linked that acknowledged the characterisation of Lorre for Toad and Morocco Mole. Will you be performing corresponding edits of those articles considering they do not have citations either? I would be grateful if you would undo your edit as your justification for doing so is invalid unless you also edit the entries for Secret Squirrel and Drak Pack as they have exactly the same criteria.

I do feel I have grounds for complaint for your action. Obviously you have grounds of justification. I just think that my argument is superior in this instance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulthorgan (talk • contribs) 17:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really sure why you inserted a new thread into the middle of my Talk page, but I've moved it to the bottom, which is generally standard for a new Talk page thread.

Wikilinks are not reliable sources (I actually mentioned that in an earlier thread on this page). If the linked articles have reliable sources, you are welcome to reinsert your information with the actual sources provided. If they do not have reliable sources, then there's a larger issue.

Editors are under no obligation to act on unsourced material. If you would like me to look the other articles over, I can try to do so when time permits. Otherwise you're of course welcome to make changes yourself. Regarding your claim that my edits are invalid if I don't apply them universally, that's kind of silly. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS; there will always be areas on WP that need improvement, and no one editor can be expected to fix everything; their failure to do so does not imply that other edits they've made are somehow inappropriate.

Regards. Doniago (talk) 18:09, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Excuse me, the additions which I made to this page are all based on the books themselves. What better source can there be for details of the fictional world depicted in a work of fiction than the work of fiction itself? Andreas Kaganov

You should name the specific book(s) and page numbers where the information is brought up, not leave it to a reader to guess where information is discussed. You may also wish to review WP:PRIMARY; make sure that you state information exactly as presented in the books rather than offering original research. Doniago (talk) 14:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, your block request was declined at WP:AIV and the deciding admin suggested you take the issue to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

This doesn't mean that the IP wasn't causing problems or shouldn't be dealt with -- just that this other noticeboard was the appropriate venue to take the problem. I wasn't involved; I'm just passing this along in case you hadn't seen the response to your request.

Thanks for taking this problem IP on -- this sort of problem editing is very vexing! --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:06, 20 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the notice. I only spotted them making one error myself, and a fairly minor one at that, so I'm not sure I'll be pursuing this. I'll try to keep an eye on them at least, to see whether they continue to be disruptive. Doniago (talk) 16:14, 20 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your advice and explanation, Don Iago :-). I have found a source to back up my own (OR) observation, and restored the comment, quoting the source in a reference. I hope this will suffice. Thnidu (talk) 01:53, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good! Thanks for your work on this! Doniago (talk) 02:56, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I like your idea for a straw poll for that discussion, but would you classify yourself as "Neutral" or otherwise? Kurt Parker (talk) 14:47, 25 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]