Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Welcome — ask about reliability of sources in context!

Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions. Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports. Sections older than 5 days archived by lowercase sigmabot III. List of archives , 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249 250, 251, 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 257, 258, 259 260, 261, 262, 263, 264, 265, 266, 267, 268, 269 270, 271, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277, 278, 279 280, 281, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 287, 288, 289 290, 291, 292, 293, 294, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299 300, 301, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309 310, 311, 312, 313, 314, 315, 316, 317, 318, 319 320, 321, 322, 323, 324, 325, 326, 327, 328, 329 330, 331, 332, 333, 334, 335, 336, 337, 338, 339 340, 341, 342, 343, 344, 345, 346, 347, 348, 349 350, 351, 352, 353, 354, 355, 356, 357, 358, 359 360, 361, 362, 363, 364, 365, 366, 367, 368, 369 370, 371, 372, 373, 374, 375, 376, 377, 378, 379 380, 381, 382, 383, 384, 385, 386, 387, 388, 389 390, 391, 392, 393, 394, 395, 396, 397, 398, 399 400, 401, 402, 403, 404, 405, 406, 407, 408, 409 410, 411, 412, 413, 414, 415, 416, 417, 418, 419 420, 421, 422, 423, 424, 425, 426, 427, 428, 429 430, 431, 432, 433, 434, 435, 436, 437, 438, 439 440, 441, 442, 443, 444, 445 Additional notes: Shortcuts WP:RSN WP:RS/N WP:V/N RFCs for deprecation, blacklisting, or other classification should not be opened unless the source is widely used and has been repeatedly discussed. Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments. While the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not policy. This page is not a forum for general discussions unrelated to the reliability of sources. Start a new discussion

There is a debate on the Steven Emerson article on if two sources are reliable in claiming that Steven Emerson has been accused of Islamophobia. The sources are:

1. Hammer, Julie; Safi, Amid (2013). The Cambridge Companion to American Islam. Cambridge University Press. p. 8. ISBN 9781107002418. Retrieved 22 January 2015. Islamophobe[s] Steven Emerson (the discredited "terrorism expert" who falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma city bombings committed by Timothy McVeigh)
2. "9 questions about Birmingham that Fox News was too embarrassed to ask". Washington Post. Retrieved 22 January 2015. Emerson has been accused of Islamophobia in the past.

The exact quote these sources cite are

"...and has been criticized for his inaccuracies, Islamophobia (references) and for saying that..."

User:ChrisGualtieri is arguing that since the Cambridge University Press book has a footnote referencing ThinkProgress that the book is not a reliable source in this context. He further argues that the Washington Post piece is a blog and therefore not a reliable source. [1] [2] [3]

As of yet, he has not been able to explain why the Washington Post piece, which was written by a paid foreign correspondence reporter for the Washington Post in their World Views published section is a Blog, but he continuously asserts that it is in fact a blog and thus not a reliable source. Please advise, are these reliable sources? Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 02:31, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Of course they are. ChrisGualtieri often questions reliable sources such as these, based on a misguided and extremely narrow interpretation of our content policies, asserting that BLPs should contain only "facts" and not opinions. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:18, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Cwobeel claims all that is required is a source for inclusion, he adds this material because he thinks that calling someone a bigot is a problem only if it is unsourced. It will take more than a label cited to "Think Progress" in a Cambridge University Press book to stick. I explained that the WaPo source should be in the body and not both in the lead to label someone a bigot. The WP:BATTLE tendencies here are repulsive and using Salon and other poor sources to directly attribute someone as a bigot and writings as a form of hate speech is unacceptable. Just because someone makes an accusation doesn't make it true or fitting for a BLP - by that logic you can go and drag up a string of nasties at almost any historic or political figure. How many times did MLK get called a nigger? Might as well reference a single sentence in Oxford and slap that on the article. It would be crude, but that is a parallel to which we see here. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Could this be closed as the wrong forum. This is a BLPN issue and BLPN#Steven Emerson is still in progress? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

look at the differences above User:ChrisGualtieri, YOU were the one who SPECIFICALLY and REPEATEDLY argued that these sources were not reliable sources. The WP:BLPN#Steven Emerson is dealing with other things, but right now on this board I'm bringing up your REPEATED assertions that the Cambridge Guide to American Islam, and the Washington Post were not reliable sources. Again, your differences and arguments are above. Cheers!Coffeepusher (talk) 03:44, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I explained and this is a BLP issue because it labels a person as a bigot. How is that not a BLP issue? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:49, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not here to discuss that, I'm here to discuss your claims and repeated assertions (cited in differences above) that the sources themselves are not reliable. You are welcome to discuss the fact that multiple reliable sources have documented the fact that Steven Emerson is criticized for being an Islamophobe on the WP:BLPN, but HERE we are discussing your interpretation of WP:RS and your statement to me to re-read WP:IRS in reference to these two articles. Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 03:58, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And comparing Martin Luther King to Emerson is a massive stretch, and your use if the n word to illustrate your point is atrocious, to say it kindly. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• (Copied over) For the CC source, the line being used is it for the entire book. Not another mention or aspect of Emerson and it has to use a Think Progress source for that twisted gem. I'd be willing to consider it being a suitable source if actually discussed Emerson more than citing Think Progress which was itself cherry-picking. Obviously Emerson ain't so discredited when his group and work was being cited by the United States Congress and was cited on a panel consisted of former Ambassador Dore Gold, Steven Emerson, and Jonathan Winer in 2003.[4] Or in mentioned cases in 2001.[5] Official meetings in 2005.[6] Since that "gaff" Emerson has "testified and briefed Congress dozens of times on terrorist financing and operational networks of al-Qaeda".[7] He is a recognized expert by the United States Government[8] A single sentence which is so thoroughly disproven by over a decade of continued work and council at the highest levels of the United States Government - discredited? Hardly. The man may make mistakes, but he is not the bigot or disgrace that trivial mention makes. Is that trivial mention in a book really acceptable to call him a bigot - when it cannot even spare a full sentence about his actual credentials? The answer is a resounding no. For the WaPo blog - it is just weak and uses Twitter to mirror it, gosh is it weak. I placed that up against the American Educational Trust and the United States Congress volumes. His work can be cited as inspiring Islamophobia, but calling the person a bigot is an issue and I agreed with the original editor who highlighted it on BLPN. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:43, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

wikipedia doesn't have a merit system when it comes to inserting sourced criticism. Cheers!Coffeepusher (talk) 06:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisGualtieri: I just checked each of those linked URLs you provided; it appears you have seriously misunderstood that information when you concluded "Obviously Emerson ain't so discredited when his group and work was being cited by the United States Congress...". In reality, anyone can offer to appear or be called as a witness at a hearing by contacting a committee holding a relevant hearing, and Emerson wasn't "cited by the United States Congress", his statements were simply recorded in the Congressional Record as required by procedural law. He's not a "recognized expert by the United States Government"; he is simply whatever he claims to be, as the Committee asks him how he should be described in the record -- and much of the flowery descriptions of him in your links are word-for-word copies from his personal website profile. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment, while Cambridge University Press is a reliable source in and of itself, regarding the passage of the book that is cited to a non-reliable source thinkprogress, what can be verified from the reliable source is that thinkprogress says... (attributed opinion).
  The Washington Post does publish blogs, but generally are vetted through an editor, therefore unless a blog can be found not to be vetted, and as Washington Post is generally seen as meeting criteria set forth in WP:IRS the blog can be seen as meeting WP:NEWSBLOG.
  This is in no way saying these sources should be used in the article in question, just my opinion on these two potential reliable sources. BLP issues should be discussed at the appropriate noticeboard. G'day.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:23, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - I agree with RightCowLeftCoast that ThinkProgress cannot be cited in Wikipedia as a reliable source for assertion of fact, only attributed opinion. Information asserted as fact in a ThinkProgress article can't appear in a Wikipedia article unless it is first vetted by a quality reliable source, preferably an academic source. The scholarly work published by Cambridge University easily meets that requirement. Remember that we Wikipedia editors cannot use sources of lesser or unknown quality, so we depend on these higher quality academic sources to sift through all relevant information resources (even articles in ThinkProgress, primary sources, personal interviews, website data, etc.), rigorously research and vet it, and submit it for review and publication in a source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy — only then can we assert the information in Wikipedia's voice as factual. These requirements have been met by the two sources listed above; applying attribution is not required, and could actually mislead readers into thinking the factual assertion is mere opinion. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - while the Cambridge University Press is considered a reliable publisher, the actual source in question, The Cambridge Companion to American Islam, is co-authored by the controversial professor of Islamic Studies, Omid Safi. [9] [10] [11] [12]. The book mentions Emerson in passing, characterizing him as a discredited terrorism expert and an Islamophobe. [13] The same contentious material further discredits Emerson by inaccurately stating that he falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma City bombing which is an inaccurate accusation. Emerson actually said, ``This was done with the intent to inflict as many casualties as possible, Emerson said on CBS. ``That is a Mideastern trait. [14] The bigoted label and false statements in RS are why the contentious statements are unacceptable per BLP. Atsme☯^Consult 05:19, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those sources don't demonstrate anything particularly controversial about Safi; rather, they show that his views are pretty mainstream and uncontroversial. In both cases the briefness of the mention in the source is either explicitly or implicitly alluding to other sources that have given a more in-depth discussion (eg. googling brings up Islamophobia in America: The Anatomy of Intolerance), so we could either cite Cambridge and the WaPo, or other sources. I might suggest "criticized as Islamophobic", but don't find such a change necessary. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • the actual source is in question — No, it is not — and I checked your links. My favorite was your citation to the screed against "Barack Hussein Obama" that you found by searching Google Books for "Omid Safi is anti-Semitic". You do realize that book is published by Tate Publishing & Enterprises, right? That's the vanity publisher someone goes to, and pays to publish crap, after all legitimate publishers refuse it. You cite that to discredit the oldest academic publisher in the world? That brought a smile to my face. The book mentions Emerson in passing — No, it doesn't. The description is actually cited, which means a little more than "just passing" thought went in to it. incorrectly stating that he falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma City bombing... — No, it's not incorrect. From the source you linked: It looked to him like the work of Muslim terrorists, he said. Ooops? He also said, "Oklahoma City, I can tell you, is probably considered one of the largest centers of Islamic radical activity outside the Middle East." Maybe he was talking about those Jewish-Hawaiian Islamic radicals, not the Muslim ones; I guess I won't know until you produce a full transcript. But the source you provided supports the book, rather than show it was incorrect. Xenophrenic (talk) 06:43, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Sorry, but the "oldest academic publisher in the world" published a book that was co-authored by a controversial professor of Islamic studies who inaccurately stated what Emerson said. I can't see how that could possibly be acceptable in a BLP. It was passing mention using a (not very collegiate) bigoted slur describing Emerson as an Islamophobe, and further defames him with an incorrect statement - the discredited "terrorism expert" who falsely identified Muslims as being behind the Oklahoma city bombings committed by Timothy McVeigh, citing Think Progress as their source. Forget the smile I brought to your face - that book should bring tears to your eyes. Watch the Emerson interview and read the transcript from that 20 year old CBS interview so you'll at least know what he said. As for your criticism of the sources I used, it brought a smile to my face. Have a good evening. Atsme☯^Consult 08:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Apology accepted, Atsme. The book was co-authored by more than a dozen professors you mean, and you've failed to show that any of them are "controversial" (not that it would matter), and you've failed to point to an "inaccurate" statement with evidence as to why it is supposedly inaccurate. And the text we're discussing isn't "citing Think Progress as their source", it is citing an article by a reporter which was published there, and itself contains numerous additional reference citations - so we're still left waiting for you to explain a policy-compliant objection. Still waiting. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Books, academics, op-eds and blocks blogs are reliable sources for their own opinions, which seems to be the main dispute here. As long as you clearly report and attribute opinions in the text (not a footnote) and the opinion is otherwise notable and part of balance balanced coverage, I don't think it is helps the editorial discussion to delve into reliability any more deeply. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:31, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hrothulf, we aren't discussing any of those, so you have misunderstood the main dispute. We're discussing the Cambridge Companion to American Islam (you'll see it linked at the top of this section), which is a reliable source for the assertion of fact. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 19:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

CCAI is a "book", written by an "academic". The post page is an op-ed or blog; I am not sure which. So I stand by my earlier point that the reliability or not (of CCAI and the Post) is not relevant to the sentence you want in the article. If we set aside the reliability of the articles, their editors and their authors, which I believe we can, Xenophrenic and Atsme should be able to have a civilized discussion about relevance and balance. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect on both counts, Hroðulf, which leaves me wondering if you've even bothered to look at the two sources we are discussing. The Cambridge Companion to American Islam textbook was compiled by 22 scholars, and vetted by the academic Cambridge University Press. As explained by our Identifying Reliable Sources policy, "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources" for the assertion of fact (not merely "their own opinions"). You say you can't tell if the Washington Post article is an op-ed or a blog, which means you also can't tell if it is either. Allow me to help: it's neither. It's an article published in their news blog section, by a reporter on the staff of the Washington Post, under the full editorial control of the Washington Post, and our policy says that is a reliable source for the assertion of fact. (This is easily verified at the WaPo site in their /blogs section.) The text being cited, "...and has been criticized for his inaccuracies, Islamophobia (references) and for saying that...", is supported as written (barring the production of equally reliable sources refuting that information, of course - but that has not happened yet). Attempting to misrepresent an assertion of fact as a mere opinion, as you suggest, would be against policy. If the original poster, Coffeepusher, and Atsme would like to have a discussion about relevance and balance, they can; my interest only pertains to the reliability of cited sources. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:00, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There actually was a quite lengthy and detailed exchange on this very subject on my TP: [15] Atsme☯^Consult 21:46, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I know that this board isn't meant to be used to address general source reliability, but I was wonder if any of my esteemed colleagues that frequent this board could comment on a website called "Bellingcat". Queer name, if I've ever heard one. It is a relatively new website, and largely seems to be the project of one fellow, a Mr Brown Moses. It seems to be a form of original research, activist blogging. I can't seem to find any evidence of reliability accorded to it by RS. This question came up when an editor attempted to add information from this Bellingcat "report" to our article on the Battle of Mariupol. I cannot trace its reliability, at all. I'm especially concerned by the fact that it is written by a one "Pieter van Huis", who the site says "is based in the Netherlands and is currently finishing his university studies". Kyiv Post, which I generally consider reliable, mentioned the report. KP says that Bellingcat is a "renowned open-source investigative group", but I find that odd, as it is a fairly new "group" (launched on 1 July in the prior summer), and not mentioned by any RS. I'd never heard of it until now. KP also says "Despite verbal and written requests to the General Prosecutor’s office, the Kyiv Post was not able to ascertain the status of the official investigation into the May 9 shootings". The lack of the official investigation report is also very concerning. Anyway, what do you fellows think? I personally don't think it is RS. It seems too shaky. RGloucester — ☎ 23:36, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Eliot Higgins, founder of Bellingcat is often cited in RS , as for example in the guardian last july on mh-17mh17 , he has been profiled in The New Yorker rocket man, a speaker at the Frontline Club,the changing face of news gathering, and - Bellingcat, though still quite new has attracted attention , as for example here [16] -, - he is already a respected citizen investigative journalist - is Bellingcat a RS ? if one were an Assad regime supporter, or Putinist one would frantic denigrate it and say, its not a RS, but then that's from a pov that regards LifeNews and SANa and RT reliable, so what would that be worth ?, otherwise , - I think it should be regarded as a RS, its a team, not one person now, - 'a Bellingcat study said ...' such and such, - should be fine. bloody hell when one thinks how painstaking and scrupulous bellingcat reports are, wp should be asking itself - is it of its caliber , or even close, not the other way round really Sayerslle (talk) 01:51, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• We have a page about Eliot Higgins, founder and one of Bellingcat authors. Based on info/sources on his page, he looks like a more or less reputable journalist. So, I think this source may deserve some credibility. My very best wishes (talk) 02:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He may well be, but it seems like he has political motives. What's more, this particular report is sourced to a student that is "finishing his university studies". RGloucester — ☎ 02:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One must be careful, however this particular publication looks like a good and detailed investigative report to me. BTW, this former student edited here, on-wiki a few years ago and looked as a reasonable contributor, which does not affect credibility of his article though.My very best wishes (talk) 04:48, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Having an article about someone, or saying they're a journalist, doesn't mean a source they write in is automatically reliable. We have a whole list of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming, but that doesn't mean any of them should be used as reliable sources. Shii (tock) 02:49, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have an article on the author, only on the founder of the blog. It is fairly obvious that this isn't an RS report. RGloucester — ☎ 01:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I know nothing about the web site, but the 'queer name' may be a reference to the phrase Belling the cat. Daveosaurus (talk) 04:56, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen it being used as an RS on quite a number of articles surrounding current events, and have been wanting to query it myself. Being started by a notable, as we know, does not make any committees, think tanks or publications the notable is attached to inherently notable (or reliable). It certainly doesn't make any 'journalist' published there RS, just self-professed. At the very least, if anything is to be used in an article, it should require WP:INTEXT attribution, as well as being open to being challenged or discussed on the article's talk page. Not sure = probably not RS. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think the operative question is whether the site exercises enough editorial control to be considered a third-party publisher. Rhoark (talk) 17:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Every indication I've found points to yes. I'm beginning to suspect this might be the most reliable source in existence. [[17]] Rhoark (talk) 21:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see how the article you've pointed to (an obscure, blog-like online journal using an article by an equally obscure 'journalist'!?) demonstrates your contention. I'm pleased for you that you're convinced that it's the ultimate RS, but you've demonstrated nothing other than establishing that you believe that your opinion qualifies as an empirical truth. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ultimately, I do not think claims by this "Bellingcat" should be used unless reported elsewhere and verified. I think it is very shaky. I know that I'll lose any battle to remove it from the article in question, but the reality is that this isn't RS in the slightest. I'm sure it serves its purpose, but it should not be the basis for encylopaedia articles. RGloucester — ☎ 01:04, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

what do you mean 'verified'? -it was reported elsewhere - the kyivpost - and you atill complained, - now it has to be 'verified' - what does that mean? Sayerslle (talk) 01:39, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is obvious. If you are not aware, I might direct you to WP:V and WP:RS. RGloucester — ☎ 01:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

well the Kyiv post 'verified' it was worth reading. bt you set up a yawp didn't yu so I got confused what you meant by verified. and then you said they didn't 'verify' the report, merely reported it - and I lost the will to live - imo wp articles should lead readers to interesting information, via RS yes, which the kyivpost is, - but obviously 'some RS are more equal than others' in your world. its like 'did the kyivpost verify that it was 'the truth'? - well, no - so what? they published an article about it - its an RS - full stop. Sayerslle (talk) 01:51, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting information that is not picked up by an RS other than Kyiv Post is of suspicious character. Keep in mind that KP, once again, confirmed that none of it was verifiable. Note that WP:V is a policy. It is not our job to point people to "interesting" information, but to verifiable information. RGloucester — ☎ 02:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

'verifiability means that people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source' - well, I guess its at a remove, but at least readers of wp can verify that a RS is happy to report the findings of bellingcat - in a sane editing environment that would count for much , the KP not as suspicious of the originators of the information as 'RGloucester' is - so rgloucester is a better 'gatekeeper' for what should be read than the KP ? I interpret the policy different to you - and please don't tell me I don't understand the policy then, because that's all too possible - I keep it simple in my head - the KP report covers this investigation - fine , I stop there -Sayerslle (talk) 02:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's not how it works. What is RS or not changes on the basis of what is reported, which is exactly why this board exists. RGloucester — ☎ 02:20, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

right - so the editorial board at the KP lost their minds to touch the bellingcat report? I doubt it Sayerslle (talk) 02:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You need to look closer. What we have here is the Columbia_Journalism_Review, an absolutely top-tier reliable source on the journalism industry, describing how Bellingcat has taken investigative journalism and fact-checking to unprecedented levels. It's a game-changer. Rhoark (talk) 05:29, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what that says. It may be "revolutionary" in the way it does things, but that doesn't make it reliable in Wikipedia's terms. Twitter has been considered "revolutionary" too, but we don't use that as a source. The way it does "fact-checking" is through analysing YouTube videos, which by most standards isn't fact-checking at all. RGloucester — ☎ 05:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

'Yet he consistently identified which weapons were being used by which side (or rebel group) through the meticulous appraisal of photographs, satellite images, and YouTube videos, and the use of social media to seek information when he was uncertain - I've noticed with you when you take against something you unscrupulously twist things- ('unarmed protestors' - it is there , listen yu deaf person 'it is there' it is there' - - no , it wasn't , it wasn't me who was deaf) - what on earth are you about? ) Sayerslle (talk) 11:17, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All information at some point originates with a primary source. Wikipedia relies on secondary sources to identify and fact-check the relevant primary sources. Secondary sources are not required to even name their sources, though its clearly better for the purpose of verifiability if they do. Anyway, we have

*third-party

*published

*editorial oversight

*reputation for fact checking

*use by others

*no identified conflict of interest

Except for special situations such as medical claims, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to find a way in which Bellingcat does not fulfill what is asked for by WP:RS or WP:V Rhoark (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What editorial oversight? It is a university student analysing Youtube videos, in this case. Anyone can do that. There is no clear "editorial oversight" of any kind. As far as "unarmed protesters", that's not what I was concerned with. I was concerned with the removal of the phrase all together, when it was sourced. If there was an inaccuracy in the sentence, fix it. Do not wholesale remove sourced content and start weaselling around what it says. This is typical. "Meticulous use of social media" does not constitute RS. RGloucester — ☎ 15:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

so again RGloucester saying 'there is no editorial oversight of any kind' - is a slurring over things - and 'Anyone can do that ' - is claptrap - if anyone can get profiled by the new Yorker, interviewed and quoted by masses of Rs - raise 49,000 to get bellingcat going - as if Kyiv post would print the results of the latest investigation if just anyone said ' I've looked at some youtube vids' - not 'anyone' - drivel Sayerslle (talk) 17:29, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Show me an English-speaking world-based establishment source that cites this particular report from Bellingcat, and the'll I'll concede. Untill then, it is unverifiable and non-RS in as far as I'm concerned. Of course, one thing that quote does make clear is that this Bellingcat is a "blog" or "amateur reporting", neither of which belong here. RGloucester — ☎ 17:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

'You’ve managed to overcome this perception through your scrupulousness and record of accuracy' - anyhow it is at least mentioned on the article page this investigation via KP, as it deserves to be , so whatever, for now - Sayerslle (talk) 17:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain why these claim have not appeared in mainstream Anglophone RS? Can you explain why there is no trace of the official investigation, and why KP acknowledged that fact? Can you acknowledge that a university student who was nowhere near Mariupol at the time of the incident in question (or ever) has no grounds for determining anything about what happened there? RGloucester — ☎ 17:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

the story has moved on for mainstream Anglophone RS - they don't care , its old history - why would they return to it ? its a specialist concern kind of thing - why isn't the fact that Kyiv pOst thought it noteworthy of any import to you at all? - like you are a better judge than the Kyiv post? - who indeed are on the spot in Ukraine, whilst you are not, but you set yourself up as the mandarin of all good judgment - absurd- the official investigation will emerge when it will , its utterly irrelevant to this investigation, and lastly, of course being on the spot is not the be all and end all - eliot Higgins on Syria and ukraine and MH-17 has been quoted at great length by RS for his great insight and has never set foot in Syria or Ukraine -he didn't write this in-depth study but he oversaw it and - well, etc , of course this painstaking analysis can have things to offerSayerslle (talk) 18:13, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Painstaking"? Are you sure you don't work for this Bellingcat? You seem to be their number-one promoter. RGloucester — ☎ 18:15, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

what would you call it? a 'slapdash' investigation? are you sure you don't work against this belingcat? you seem to be their number one denigrator. Sayerslle (talk) 18:18, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I demand adherence to the words of establishment mainstream anglophone reliable sources, as is necessary and demanded by our policies. This blog is clearly attempting to overthrow the establishment with its emphasis on the demos, and that simply cannot be tolerated. RGloucester — ☎ 18:27, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The phrases "blog" and "amateur reporting" were being used of Higgins' efforts before starting a professional publication. Even then, he was highly respected. Bellingcat has less of a track record than Higgins himself, but evidence is he exerts personal oversight over contributors. It meets all the requirements at WP:RS with flying colors, has an outstanding reputation for fact checking, and is frequently used by other reliable sources. [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] I'm sorry that wasn't the answer you were looking for. Rhoark (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think some of those RS mentioned above are actually not RS. The Daily Mail for one, probably some others. But the point stands. Geogene (talk) 02:19, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bellingcat seems to be a blog of amateur journalists, yet on a few occasions it has been referenced by RS, including The Guardian [26], [27]. I'd suggest that where one of its reports is referenced favorably by RS, that report be considered RS, and otherwise Bellingcat content should be treated as a non-RS blog. If its reputation continues to grow, and we get some insight into its editorial control, then we can revisit it later. Geogene (talk) 02:08, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this, which is what I've been saying. If a report by this "Bellingcat" appears in an establishment source, then it that report is notable. Otherwise, it is just a blog. A rubbish rag of discontented youths that has no place in the realm of learned men. In the particular case I've referenced, it has made no such appearance in establishment sources. RGloucester — ☎ 00:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Now your objection is to the author's age? Rhoark (talk) 22:17, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

' a rubbish rag of discontented youths' ? - ffs - more like active, mature minds , a decade or so past school or college but not thank Christ having fallen away into the 'sere, the yellow leaf' and decaying grips on reality. Sayerslle (talk) 23:59, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There are a couple of debates going on at the talk page for Somalis in the United Kingdom, one on education statistics and situation of Somalis in 2004? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is the material I have suggested adding to the article, based on that source: "In the mid 2000s, research showed completed education within the Somali community to be low. For instance, in 2005 the Institute for Public Policy Research published analysis of Labour Force Survey data for the period 2000-04, and found that, of Somali-born immigrants who had arrived between 1990 and 2004 (who made up 761 of 812 Somali-born people in the sample), 50.1 per cent had no qualification and 2.8 per cent had higher qualifications". Cordless Larry (talk) 08:34, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While we're at it, I'd also like views on whether this Economist article can be appropriately used as a source on British Somalis' educational one on use of religion data from the 2001 census. One editor is claiming that historical data can't be used about these topics, as the sources provide data on a previous time period, and in some cases there is more recent data available. He's citing WP:SCHOLARSHIP and claiming that the sources are dated. Can I get a view on this? Mine is that it's fine to include historical data based on reliable sources, as long as it's not presented as if it represents the situation in 2015. Several different sources are being discussed, but to give an example, is it appropriate to use this one to present data on the educational status. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The editor above has been trying to add statistical data on educational qualifications and religious affiliation from as far back as 14 years ago to the page. This material was originally phrased in the present tense, evidently with the intent to suggest that it represented the current situation. All of this material is also contradicted by newer data, including a 2010 education study that the editor had himself originally linked to and newer data on religious affiliation. The editor has queried on various venues and sought a third opinion; this is the third venue where this same material has been posted, reaching the limit of WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Several other editors besides myself explained to him that it is inappropriate to use old statistics to reflect the current situation when newer stats are available. The editor subsequently insisted that he just wanted to cite some of this old data in an historical context, although I explained to him that the figures were contradicted even at the time of their publication by other data. Just as an example, a 2002 Africa Education Trust and London Learning and Skills Council report indicates that: "In general the Somali community are highly educated. Approximately half had completed secondary education and a further fifth of those interviewed had completed university. Most Somalis had attended education or training courses in the UK and over half had done a course at FE or HE level. Most Somali women had accessed education or training in the UK." The Economist editorial he links to above likewise does not identify from where it culled its purported nationwide education figure. By contrast, the governmental Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit indicates that no such nationwide statistics are in fact available, nor is the size of the student population indeed even known [28]. As the editor also indicated that he had a different interpretation of the term "outdated" in WP:SCHOLARSHIP's stipulation that "some scholarly material may be outdated, in competition with alternative theories, or controversial within the relevant field[...] try to cite present scholarly consensus when available, recognizing that this is often absent", one of the other editors explained that outdated means that the data has been superceded by more recent information. Middayexpress (talk) 16:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I won't comment on this account of my behaviour other than to suggest that people visit Talk:Somalis in the United_Kingdom#Somali Education and judge for themselves, and to say I'm not aware of anyone on that page who has disagreed with me, apart from Middayexpress. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, just on the point about the use of the present tense: I think I was clear with my original edits what time period the data was from. Of course, suggestions for better phrasing are always welcome. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's not quite true. There's Inayity, AcidSnow on his page, and Maunus on what "outdated" data actually means, for starters. Neil also doesn't seem to disagree that newer figures supercede the older ones. At any rate, I invite you to identify for the first time there just where exactly that Economist piece got its WP:REDFLAG figure from, and why it conflicts with the actual, official government figures. Middayexpress (talk) 20:33, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Inayity said: "But if something is 10 years old, it obviously has problems in stat terms in the context of this article. I guess you could state the period in which it was accurate and that would fix that problem". Stating the period in which the data was accurate is precisely what I'm proposing to do with the IPPR LFS data - see my suggested wording on the talk page. AcidSnow does appear to agree with you, but Maunus is saying that the data you're citing is not a more recent equivalent of the IPPR data. I don't think it's my job to do research into where the Economist got their data from. There is partial data for the UK, so presumably it's that. Your demands all sound a bit WP:OR to me though. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed: "if something is 10 years old, it obviously has problems in stat terms in the context of this article". Also see below. Middayexpress (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And the rest of the quote, where Inayity suggests a solution to that problem? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See his latest clarification below. And yes, per WP:REDFLAG, it certainly does matter where that piece got its figure from. Especially since that number conflicts with the official government local authority figures; it is literally half that of some of them ("any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources[...] red flags that should prompt extra caution include: surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources; challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest"). Middayexpress (talk) 21:08, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Given the wide variation in GCSE results across the country, it's not all surprising that there's a difference between a national figure and results for Camden schools alone. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:49, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The economist is a reliable source. The article is not an editorial. Spumuq (talk) 17:19, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's not whether the news outlet The Economist itself is reliable that is the question, but rather whether that specific article is. It does not indicate from where it derived its WP:REDFLAG nationwide education figure. This is perhaps not surprising since the governmental Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit indicates that no reliable nationwide statistics are in fact available, nor is the size of the student population indeed even known [29]. Local authorities such as the Camden Education Commission likewise indicate an altogether different, higher figure [30]. Middayexpress (talk) 19:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And I have to remark while BBC or the economist might be RS in principle we do have take a case-by-case approach. B/c if they are quoting stats without a source it is a problem. And with the volume of nonsense you read in these "respectable" places we need to be careful.--Inayity (talk) 20:45, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification, User:Inayity. Note that several independent reviews indicate that the piece is factually inacurate in several aspects (e.g. [31]). What do you make of that review? Middayexpress (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On a side note this is something which vexes me about Wikipedia. Often so-called RS source talk a lot of nonsense but the communities rebuttal is silenced from Wiki b/c it fails RS. I am dealing with this issue all the time. The African American community goes crazy at something but those voices are from grassroots org etc. But I feel i digress. --Inayity (talk) 20:57, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I actually think that's very relevant, Inayity. I'm more than happy to cite the Economist article and then cite articles such as the one Middayexpress suggests, noting that they contest the characterisation in the Economist article. I think that's a better approach than trying to find the one, "true" source. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:59, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Although I should also say that this community source, which predates the Economist article, features the exact same GCSE statistics. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's a better source, but it doesn't identify the original examination that it was taken from either. Which governmental body administered the examination(s), if any, and when? Both the Camden Council and Tower Hamlets local administrations report GCSEs over twice as high. In 2012, the official GCSE stats in Camden schools were a full 37 percentage points higher (page 13 [32]). Middayexpress (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't really suggesting it as an alternative source, just pointing out that not all Somali community groups disagree with the figures in the Economist article. I'm not sure it is a better source though - it gives no indication of data sources, whereas the charts in the Economist article do at least state the ONS as a source. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Economist piece does not indicate that its GCSE figure was taken from the ONS. It doesn't identify any governmental body as the source of its figure. For the same reason, there's no telling where the other organization got its figure from. What's certain is that it wasn't inspired by that Economist piece, as it predates it by several months. In fact, pretty much the entire community takes umbrage at the piece [33]. Thus, what there is here is a redflag figure of uncertain derivation, which to boot is contradicted (and by a substantial margin at that) by the very government bodies that actually administer the GCSE examinations. Middayexpress (talk) 22:26, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, good point Inayity. In this instance, it's a pretty clear WP:REDFLAG fail. The piece doesn't even bother identifying where it culled its figure from, which is literally half that of the official government figures. Compare it, for example, with the Camden Education Commission's different, much higher figure for 2011 [34]. Middayexpress (talk) 21:08, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with pointing to Camden though, is that it's just one London borough, and not necessarily representative of the UK as a whole, or indeed London (see figure 2 of this source, which makes it clear how widely Somali pupils' GCSE performance varies across London). It's perfectly possible that Somali pupils do well in Camden but not that well nationally. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:28, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit report uses a series of case studies at various London schools to represent the Somali student community as a whole. It concludes that the overall attainment of Somali pupils is rising and is directly related to a number of factors including mobility and especially relative command of English ("the evidence is that once Somali children reach a competent level of English, they forge ahead in their learning and can reach the highest standards" [35]). Middayexpress (talk) 23:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an idea. How about, rather than using the Economist source for the GSCE figures, we use this? It's not UK-wide in its coverage, but it does cover England (with some caveats that we could note). It happens to give a figure of 33.2 per cent 5 A*–C grades at GCSE for 2010-11, which is the same as the Economist. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That paper may perhaps be where that Economist piece got its figure from, but there's no way of knowing for sure since it is doesn't indicate this. The paper includes a caveat that its data is not robust. In its Table 6.1, it also compares the data against the 2003 England mean rather than the contemporaneous 2011 one. Hence, its inconsistency with the local authority data, and extreme scores for certain student groups like Portuguese and Yemeni (over 40 percentage points below the England mean?). For Camden schools, the official data for a number of these student populations is instead substantially higher (66% GSCE in 2011 and 70% GSCE in 2012 for Somali pupils [36]). Middayexpress (talk) 23:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Where does it say that it's comparing with the 2003 mean? The table looks like it compares the 2010-11 figures for Somalis with the 2010-11 mean to me, but I'm happy to be corrected. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's in the table's second column ("Mean % difference from England mean, 2003, excluding maths and English GCSE"). The England mean is unchanged because it is from the same year, 2003. Middayexpress (talk) 00:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Are we looking at the same table (6.1)? It's in the column headed "Mean % difference from England mean, 2010–2011, including maths and English GCSE"! Cordless Larry (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that looks like the column. It's strange how Portuguese and Yemeni are over 40 percentage points below the England mean in that Table 6.1, yet the paper offers no explanation for this. It also says that it collected the data from the local authorities that actually administered the exams. These single GCSE percentages are thus not in fact official government averages, but rather averages that the authors themselves later tabulated through some obscure process. This would explain the wide discrepancy between these figures and the actual official local authority figures (e.g. [37]). Middayexpress (talk) 00:44, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There are quite a lot of other sources that confirm that Portuguese and Yemeni pupils are amongst the poorest performing, so I don't think that's inconsistent. The wide discrepancy is between a national figure calculated by Rutter, and a figure for Camden - i.e. one London borough. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not just Camden, obviously. Many other local authorities -- which actually administer the exams -- report official GCSE results substantially higher than that of the IPPR's unofficial, interpreted average. For Tower Hamlets, where almost 80% of Somalis in the UK live, the local authority reports that in 2011-2012, 58% of Somali students achieved five or more A*–Cs grades at GCSE in subjects including English and Maths. This was slightly above the overall average. The girls were actually much higher than the average, at 70%; the boys were closer to the overall GCSE average at 49%. Middayexpress (talk) 16:26, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The nature of an average is that some individual areas will be above it and others below it. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:33, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. And the official GCSE average in 2011-2012 for the largest concentration of Somali students is slightly above the overall average. Middayexpress (talk) 18:01, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Its sounds like some individuals are drawing their own conclusions WP:OR. Regardless of academic performance in one London Borough, only figures that relate to overall national performance can be used. A situation similar to that of Somalis is that of South Asian communities, communities in the north of England are far less wealthy and educated compared to those in the South East of England. As a result the relatively high academic performance of Bangladeshis in London Tower Hamlets is masked by the lower academic performance of their ethnic peers in places like Bradford and Leicester. The economic strength of the South East of England no doubt plays a part in this, but lower national figures are the result. Actually the same pattern can be observed for Caucasians incidentally. Nograviti (talk) 07:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I agree that only national figures should be used. We can note the London figures as well (the sources seem clearly reliable to me), but it would seem odd to rely on figures for London alone, when there is data that covers other parts of the UK (even if the coverage is not complete and the figures are subject to caveats). The point you make about variation across the country is a good one - that's what I was getting at with my comment about averages, a few posts up. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:44, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That is not a comparable situation since ~80% of South Asians in the UK do not live in one local authority as Somalis do. That IPPR data also is not official; the authors tabulated their own average from different local authorities. However, the local authorities themselves indicate an altogether different GCSE. The Tower Hamlets GCSE, by the way, is not OR. It's the local authority's official GCSE data from its Achievement Statistics for 2011-2012. Middayexpress (talk) 16:57, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can you point me to evidence that around 80 per cent of Somalis live in one local authority area? Cordless Larry (talk) 19:12, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but given this is an article on Somalis nationally, the emphasis should be on national data. But I don't see a problem with highlighting data from specific areas in the country, but there should be a caveat pointing out that the results are for specific local area and may not be indicative of results across the country.Nograviti (talk) 09:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, although the IPPR data is for England, not the whole of the UK, but it appears to be the best we have. I've seen a source for Wales somewhere too, so will have a look for that. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The governmental Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit indicates that no such nationwide GCSE stats for Somali students are in fact available [38]. The IPPR's unofficial, interpreted figure for England (not the UK) is thus certainly not the best GCSE figure. It also just so happens to be almost half that of the official GCSE figure for Tower Hamlets, where most Somalis in the UK actually reside. Middayexpress (talk) 16:57, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, everyone accepts that no UK-wide data is available, I think. Given that, the IPPR's attempt to produce an average for England, with all its caveats, is the most comprehensive we have. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That makes no difference since the IPPR figure is still not the official government GCSE stat. It is instead an unofficial average of the local authority GCSE data that the IPPR authors themselves tabulated. Given this, the official GCSEs from the local authorities with the largest Somali students populations are the actual next best thing after an official nationwide GCSE average for them. Middayexpress (talk) 21:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing about WP:RS that says we can't use "unofficial" (by which I presume you mean not government) sources. If we had data from all of the local authorities that IPPR had collected data from, I might agree with you, but we only have it from a few London ones, like Camden and Lambeth. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:59, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The IPPR's unofficial calculations from official local authority data are not infallible, as it itself concedes elsewhere (page 19 [39]). Besides Camden and Lambeth, there's also Tower Hamlets, a local authority that alone accounts for almost 80% of Somalis in the nation. That's certainly more representative and official at that. Middayexpress (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide me a source for that 80 per cent figure? It's at odds with the statistics in the article itself. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:33, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Midday, you must be mistaken. The 2011 census only recorded just under 3,000 Somali-born people in Tower Hamlets, out of more than 100,000 in the UK. See here. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's only the number that reported they lived there; it doesn't capture everyone. In actuality, almost 80% of Somalis in the UK indeed mainly reside in Tower Hamlets [40]. Middayexpress (talk) 23:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but a Powerpoint presentation hardly qualifies as a reliable source. If that were true, there are tens of thousands of Somalis in Tower Hamlets who have been completely missed by the census. Seems a bit unlikely given that the population of the borough is only 250,000. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a detailed study of the Tower Hamlets population that concludes that there were 4,600 Somalis there in 2010. That makes much more sense. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The file format doesn't really matter, but I think you may be right. The proportion is apparently instead for London as a whole. Middayexpress (talk) 00:04, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I didn't express that very well. It's not the file format, just that it's a presentation that's been put online without it being checked for accuracy. It sounds likely that that figure is indeed for London as a whole (otherwise there are a whole lot of Somalis hiding in Tower Hamlets somewhere!). Cordless Larry (talk) 00:08, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. Middayexpress (talk) 00:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was about the add one of the largest well known concentrations of Somalis in London is in Somers Town in Camden. But it seems like you have already confirmed the hard data Larry. Midday please keep to actual data instead of conjecture and WP:OR. Also the discussion is not on whether the IPPR article is bulletproof, the issue is whether it forms the best basis for national data on Somalis, everyone except for you is of the opinion that it is Nograviti (talk) 07:57, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there's nothing conjectural about those official Tower Hamlets GCSE figures (which, in any event, weren't adressed to you and don't concern Nigerians). Since you are here presumably because of the Nigerian GCSEs, you should also be aware that the head of the governmental Lambeth Research and Statistics Unit already published nationwide GCSE data in 2013 for various populations. And as expected, here too the official figures don't jibe with the IPPR's unofficial calculations [41]. Middayexpress (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think Nograviti was referring to your 80 per cent of Somalis point, not the GCSE figures, with that comment about conjecture. The IPPR and Demie data can't really be directly compared, because they refer to different years and one uses ethnicity data and one language data. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:13, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Larry, Yes I was referring to the 80% point. Also midday please see my talk page to understand my motivations here on WPNograviti (talk) 08:35, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It says there that your main goal was to have recent data which shows the academic achievements of British Nigerians. I hope that's indeed all there is to it; I really do. Middayexpress (talk) 16:34, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the Ahmad Keshvari deletion discussion, which of these sources can be used to reliably establish the notability of Iranian pilot Ahmad Keshvari?

• "Simorgh TV series: In 1992, Iranian television made a series that was about pilots of the western war zone such as Ali Akbar Shiroodi, Ahmad Keshvari, and Soheilian." (cited by User:AliAkar and User:Mhhossein)
• "Flight Wing is the name of the book that reflects the life of Ahmad Keshvari which presented at the 26th Tehran International Book Fair." (cited by User:AliAkar) (presumable description of book)

--Anders Feder (talk) 12:46, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need to provide more information. Was the TV series a documentary, or fiction based on real life events? Are there specific episodes entirely about the subject, or was the subject's name merely mentioned. The second source does not seem to be at all useful for establishing notability.- MrX 18:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@AliAkar: @Mhhossein: Can you provide the information requested?--Anders Feder (talk) 19:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the Wikipedia rules (WP:SOLDIER). The TV series was an documentary bout Ahmad Keshvari life from born to death. All the film and not an episode is about him and you can see him and his name in the all the time. In addition to he was an Iranian general and according ti Wikipedia rules, generals have notability.AliAkar (talk) 08:14, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@AliAkar: No, generals do not have notability according to any Wikipedia rules, as explained here. Also, this is the reliability noticeboard. It is not notability that is being discussed. It is the (lack of) reliability of the sources you cite.--Anders Feder (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can the following article from Adam Smith Institute be used in Gamergate controversy?. Note that it makes a contentious BLP claim therefore I am asking here. Avono (talk) 18:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would say no, with the exception of non-self-serving claims about the institute.- MrX 18:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I will not comment on this particular source right now, but I think it is a recurrent problem of how to evaluate the reliability of things like NGOs and think tanks. WP:IRS mostly pertains to newspapers and peer-reviewed journals, but there is a universe of other sources. IRS is a guideline that defers to WP:V and WP:OR. Some things that should be ascertained:

• Is it WP:THIRDPARTY?
• Is it WP:SECONDARY?
• Is the publishing organization independent of the material's author, or is it a proxy for him/her?
• Is there a conflict of interest?
• How is the publisher's reputation?
• Is there use by others?
• Does the source identify the material as news, blogging, opinion, or research?
• Is the claim that is to be used in Wikipedia an instance of WP:BLP?

Here are some prior noticeboard discussions about think tanks: [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] Rhoark (talk) 22:09, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• What is the claim that you wish to cite from this source? (If you are not sure if you can quote it, can you point at the section and paragraph number?) --Obsidi (talk) 02:59, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

[49] Artist James Peck documenting his return home, I would normally not use a personal blog for a source but this was never going to be front page news. Is the revert of an WP:SPS not just a little over the top, if ever there was an example of WP:IAR this would be a good one. WCM_email 14:17, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Considering it is self-published and apparently pertains to controversies that involve the author, I would not consider it a reliable source. It does seem like a very appropriate external link.

Read the section of policy titled Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves. This would appear to qualify since Peck is otherwise notable. In other words, the self-published source is not the only reason for the article but does provide relevant information about the subject from the subject.--GodBlessYou2 (talk) 18:51, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

BBC documentary The Secret World of Lewis Carroll. Broadcast BBC 1 31 Jan 2015. url [50]. Attempted to be used in Lewis Carroll.

Words to the effect of

In a 2015 BBC programme The Secret World of Lewis Carroll experts indicated their belief that a photograph of a naked teenage girl was the oldest Liddell girl Lorina, and was the work of Dodgson. The programme speculated that this was the possible cause of the break in the relationship between him and the Liddell family.

Editors against its inclusion contend that THIS documentary is not a RS, or that ALL BBC documentaries are not RSs.

its possible to watch until March 1 or 2, 2015, the BBC documentary, on the I-player link above. Sayerslle (talk) 22:28, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Speculated" means they do not know. I know fairly directly that Alice would not speak to Charles - but we can't use that knowledge in any article. BBC documentaries are no better nor worse than their writers (and their advertising blurbs for such documentaries are much worse) - which means one is well-advised to get a second source to back it up. Collect (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think Martha Kearney is a respected reporter. There are sources that refer to the programme. A History Today [51] article does, and is rather negative towards it. Newspaper references repeat the idea. Surely it is unlikely that anyone will actually KNOW. WP only reports what RSs say. We would surely allow a citation to a book that speculates about Shakespeare's sexuality - so why not a BBC documentary about Carroll? This is not a question about whether Carroll was a paedophile, it is about whether a BBC documentary, that suggests he might have been, can be cited. I was hoping someone would know of some WP rule that allows or disallows BBC documentaries as RSs.Myrvin (talk) 07:48, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is no WP list of reliable or unreliable sources. It is clearly a verifiable source, a notable and widely viewed source, and not a self-published source. So in my book, it can be used, but it should be carefully identified inline, as you have done, but rather than just say that the program interviewed "experts" I think you should identify specifically who the expert(s) were offering this opinion. In short, carefully identify the complete fact. It is a fact that Dr. X and Mrs. Y expressed the opinion you describe in this BBC documentary. Attributing who made the claim helps to reduce the chance that readers will read the opinion as a statement of fact.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 19:06, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Naming names is a very good point, and I was thinking of doing that. I have a recording of the programme and I am noting these things down. However, There is so much resistance to the idea of LC's dodgy sexuality that editors are likely to dislike the documentary, no matter what. Still thanks a lot for the view. Myrvin (talk) 21:16, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I intend to put this in, but it may well be deleted out of hand:

In a 2015 BBC programme, presented by journalist Martha Kearney, experts indicated their belief that a full-frontal photograph of a naked teenage girl was that of the oldest Liddell girl Lorina, and was the work of Dodgson.[3] Nicolas Burnett, a photographic conservation specialist, ruled out the idea that the print is a modern fake. He also said that the image had been taken by a similar camera to the one Carroll is known to have used, and that the developing process and paper was the same as that used by Carroll. He gave his "gut instinct" that the photograph was by Lewis Carroll. Forensic imagery analyst David Anley compared known images of Lorina at different ages with the suspected photograph. He said "In my opinion, I would say it's her". The presenter speculated that this was the possible cause of the rift between Carroll and the Liddell family.

Myrvin (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that this would be undue weight. The photography and his relationships with other women are already covered -- all that would be added was a speculation that something that's previously been explained (though less-than-satisfactorily) might or might not have another explanation. Barring that, your phrasing above seems workable. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This source is being used in the article Klaw (Marvel Comics) to state that Andy Serkis will be playing the character in an upcoming movie. We were attempting to discuss this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics#Klaw in Avengers: Age of Ultron, but since Adamstom.97 claimed that "the discussion concerning this is going nowhere" he reverted and put the source back in the article. Is this a reliable source for this claim? 2601:D:B480:ED2:B1FE:426A:B8FA:EA58 (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to point out that the source is also being used in the articles Avengers: Age of Ultron and List of Marvel Cinematic Universe film actors, and that the discussion really wasn't going anywhere anytime soon, which wouldn't be a problem (as we are in no rush) if it wasn't causing consistincy issues with these other articles. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:11, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not a question per se, but I'd like it archived somewhere that, when TMZ uses "law enforcement sources", they are (at least in my experience) almost always right. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 08:28, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

TMZ is self-described as a "Celebritiy Gossip" site. For example today is has a screaming headline Bruce Jenner Cops to Get Search Warrant for Cellphone Was He Texting? 2/8/2015 1:00 AM PST BY TMZ STAFF . The imputation that he was "texting" is pure tabloid fare. I find almost all sources of "celebrity gossip" are weak sources, but a source which uses that type of headline, even if you think it often gets inside information from the police, does not meet the requirements for WP:BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:44, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Which, if I may, is exactly why there remains no consensus wrt TMZ within Wikipedia and why this site in particular keeps coming up for discussion. Essays suggest it should be used with caution—such as, when it uses "law enforcement sources". I argue for the same reason that it should also be nuked with caution. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 21:59, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Our referencing style is partly to blame--we emphasize article titles, which emphasize the headline-grabbing aspect of articles. As we're not likely to change the formatting for this reason, the net effect is that we must be particularly careful in using these sources. DGG ( talk ) 01:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to get headlines deprecated as a "reliable source" to no avail[52]. Editors kept saying the headline is perfectly good as a "source." Sigh. Collect (talk) 01:55, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is wargs.com a reliable source for genealogies of Donald Trump, the Marx Brothers etc.? (169 hits for it in articles per Wikipedia search function). [53] is from the Quentin Tarantino BLP. [54] from the Jim Gilmore BLP among a host of others. Thanks. Collect (talk) 18:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC) Collect (talk) 18:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

wargs.com is the web site that curates the work of the late William Addams Reitwiesner. Although Reitwiesner was not a professional genealogist, some googling around shows his work is highly respected and frequently cited in books and other media. I'd say it can be used with the standard caveats. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:36, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A number of them are specifically noted as drafts, however. Make a difference?

Yes, it does make a difference. Definitely do not cite any thing marked as a draft... it is quite common for drafts (even drafts of highly reliable sources) to contain inaccurate information which is later corrected in the final version. Blueboar (talk) 20:20, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WAR habitually cited his unprinted output as drafts (like any careful genealogist who reports and relies on BLPs in his work), even decades after he'd ceased conducting active research on a line of descent; that did not prevent him from eventually citing it publicly or uploading it to his website, nor prevent otherwise highly reliable sources from publishing excerpts and summaries of his work. Generally and in practice, his reputation was such that once he reported genealogical findings (though not necessarily other dicta) online or in interviews, it was treated as of reliably professional quality. FactStraight (talk) 12:27, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not sure its reliability is even relevant. This information on non-notable ancestors of any given person is unencyclopedic. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:52, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As Short Brigade Harvester Boris said, Reitwiesner's work is highly respected and frequently cited by others. It is not unencyclopedic to include the names of non-notable ancestors of a given person as part of an ahnentafel. Saying more about them would be, but mentioning them in an ahnentafel is no more unencylcopedic than naming the non-notable parents of a celebrity, which is common practice on Wikipedia. Bobby Martnen (talk) 17:13, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. While I'm not a huge fan of naming non-notable parents either, distant ancestors clearly have little relevance to the life of the person being profiled. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:21, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If I may give an anecdotal example re: non-notable parents, and I know this isn't main point,but there are times when it's helpful. For instance, if a person migrated to a new country and had their name changed, it might be help in getting their birth name if you knew the names of their parents (provided they weren't changed as well). Several editors are starting work on an Israeli archaeologist's new article. He was born in Poland though and so his current name is unlikely his birth name and we can't seem to find what his name was before his family moved to Israel. Anyway, sorry for the tangent. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 22 Shevat 5775 06:04, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi - I am attempting to create a new article about a podcast. The only source of information I have about the podcast is the podcast itself and 1 or 2 mentions in other podcasts on the web. Is this enough to create a Wikipedia article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgreenberg52 (talk • contribs)

Based on that description alone, such an article likely would not meet notability and/or verifiability standards. —ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 09:18, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Are there serious objections to using the Irish Daily Mail as a source? We've recently had an editor repeated removing content from the Landmark Worldwide article with the comment "tabloid newspaper is not a reliable source" eg here: [55]. Although in terms of format, it is tabloid, but so are almost all newspapers in the British Isles these days. The Mail is middlebrow, definitely not in the sensationalist red top bracket, which is the implication of describing a newspaper as 'tabloid'. The editor also objected to the fact that there isn't an online version of this paper, which seems an irrelevance. In this instance, it was being used as a source for the opinion expressed by the writer of the feature article quoted. The editor argued on the talk page that the page should include "facts about opinions on Landmark", but seemed keen to exclude opinions in favour of the corporation. DaveApter (talk) 17:55, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be related to the British Daily Mail which is a tabloid in every sense of the word. That does tend to argue against its reliability for controversial issues. --GRuban (talk) 20:19, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is RS for opinions stated as opinions, and many claims of fact, but (like almost all sources) should not be used for contentious claims about living persons in the vein of "celebrity gossip" without other sources backing it up. Same as the Daily Mail - reliable for many things, but (like the Guardian and almost all other sources) iffy for contentious claims in the nature of "celebrity gossip." The case at hand appears to be the personal opinion of a specific feature reporter "Nikki Walsh" and citable as such, but not as fact. Collect (talk) 21:23, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I would agree with what Collect has just observed, and would not consider using it as a source for contentious claims or "celebrity gossip", and confirm that in this specific case it was being used as a source for opinions stated as opinions (and I think that was explicit in the context). DaveApter (talk) 12:14, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The page in question is Illinois Policy Institute. Are these two sources [56] [57] reliable to establish IPI's donors? They strike me as extremely partisan and attack-oriented. The two Progress Illinois citations are based off of a report by Center for Media and Democracy attacking IPI and other groups. The name of the reports is "Stink Tanks." Obviously Progress Illinois is an opponent of IPI, so I don't think these are appropriately reliable sources to be using on the article. Thanks. Safehaven86 (talk) 19:55, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this posting may be premature. A discussion is underway at Talk:Illinois_Policy_Institute#Progress_Illinois. Interested editors are encouraged to contribute there. – S. Rich (talk) 20:55, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this posting is premature. I've made numerous attempts on the talk page to discuss the neutrality of these sources, two editors have expressed objections to the sourcing, yet the sources are still being used in the article. Safehaven86 (talk) 22:45, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

According to the 1921 census in Mexico (the last official census to account for race), the population was stated as being 9.8% white, 60% mestizo, 30% native. In terms of modern references, there are a couple. The CIA World Factbook states that the population is now 9% white, 60% mestizo, and 30% either predominantly amerindian or amerindian. While, Britannica states the population is around two-thirds mestizo, a little over one-sixth for amerindian, and a little under one-sixth for white. Note, that Britannica is ambiguous in its phraseology, and does not give the specific numbers. So, given that we have a primary source (the last recorded census) of 1921, that is backed by a modern secondary source such as the CIA World Factbook, which modern source should feature greater exposure, such as for the chart in this section titled 'Racial and ethnic composition in Mexico ' (which currently reflects the britannica source, which is only one source that is not corroborated and contains ambiguity).

[58]

census, see page 63 [59]

CIA World Factbook [60]

Britannica [61]

I would say that given we have a contemporary secondary source, the CIA World Factbook, backed by the primary census, the Mexican census, it makes more sense to place more weight on the calculations of those 2, rather than a single tertiary sources like Britannica, and so the data in the article should be updated to reflect the former 2. Technically, the 17.5 and 16.5 numbers were just made up here in the chart, as the exact numbers are not provided by britannica. That does not sound reliable. Alon12 (talk) 20:16, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I come here as a debate has started on WP:ANI regarding the reliability of that source. Let me sum up the situation: one user, User:Yahad-In Unum (possibly affiliated), has been adding historical information and quotes from witnesses to various articles of Ukrainian towns and villages (examples: [62] [63]). It has been objected to by Taivo on grounds of COI (username identical to NGO), irrelevance and unreliability of the source. I guess the last one is what matters here.

In my opinion, historical information available on Yahad-In Unum's website is reliable. Our article about the NGO is well-sourced, and shows it is a respected organization with a great record identifying mass grave sites in Ukraine, Belarus, and other territories occupied by the Nazis, and collecting testimonies of surviving inhabitants. Their website is organized around a map, that they inaccurately described as "interactive". I guess that word is what led to it being dismissed as a self-published source. However, it is not user-generated; "interactive" only means "clickable" here I think. A note on the site states: "site profiles are being added incrementally each month as information is prepared and new sites identified" which indicates that the info is provided and/or vetted by their staff.

So would it be considered a reliable source regarding Nazi mass killings in these regions? I would answer with the positive, but defer to second opinions that you would provide here. Thanks! Susuman77 (talk) 15:23, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The website in question may be a good piece of reporting, but it doesn't fit into Wikipedia's definition of reliable source since it consists of a compilation of primary sources (first-person accounts) rather than Wikipedia's preferred secondary sources. While I have the utmost respect for survivors, their memories do not constitute vetted information. Susuman77's concerns are valid, but my ANI was initiated after reading one entry in Wikipedia which 1) was not much more than the quote, "They lined us up against a wall and shot most of us", and 2) was inserted into a very brief history section. Some of the additions have dates and numbers of victims, but we need to be judicious about which ones are added. And I still think it is inappropriate for User:Yahad-In Unum to be adding information as it is a WP:COI. If another editor wants to use that site judiciously, then that is another matter. --Taivo (talk) 15:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, this is the edit that got my attention. It is hardly encyclopedic. --Taivo (talk) 15:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I guess Taivo and I can agree on the need for judicious use of the source. Indeed, not all quotes from their witness accounts have a place in our articles. However, the site also offers short description of events and statistics in its own voice, and I reckon that would constitute a reliable source. History sections are brief for many reasons, and current paucity of info should not be a reason to remove new info that is relevant: the Holocaust was a crucial event that, besides deserving mention and remembrance, drastically changed the demographics of these places. I hope we can find agreement on what is relevant in addition to reliability matters. Susuman77 (talk) 15:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think that User:Susuman77 and I might very well agree on these things, correct me if I'm wrong:

• User:Yahad-In Unum should suggest additions on Talk Pages first.
• Information to be added should be substantial, such as total numbers of people killed, deported, population figures, dates of occupation, etc.
• Survivor quotes are generally not appropriate since they don't address the points in the preceding bullet.

--Taivo (talk) 15:55, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Taivo: Not sure I can agree on these points:

• I guess your first bullet is motivated by COI concerns. We need to first hear from the user whether he is directly involved with the NGO/website. Even if he is, Nyttend suggested at ANI that he should be able to add valuable information if that source is deemed reliable: it is not the situation of a company trying to get more business though WP but an educational/memorial NGO trying to contribute. Let's see what others think.
• Description of events based on witness testimonies is valuable to a historical article/section. I think that paraphrasing/summarizing events based on the testimonies available on that website should be possible and valuable if attributed correctly, and preferable to bare quotes as provided in the edits you object to. However, I don't see these edits (even the Khmelnytskyi one as unencyclopedic, even though they can be improved. Susuman77 (talk) 16:09, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes that do not add actual information, but do nothing more than sensationalize the situation or evoke empathy are not encyclopedic. The quote at Khmelnytskyi is precisely of that nature--it adds no actual information to the article, it simply evokes empathy or sensationalizes the atrocity. There are no numbers, no facts, no actual content. --Taivo (talk) 16:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It does add information and contain facts: Jews were killed by the Nazis, and villagers were forced to watch and threatened with similar treatment. I fail to see any sensationalization. It should be presented better (number of people killed, date, etc., I'll try to find out more in the next days), but it definitely adds information about an important fact in the history of this place, that was totally missing from the article before. It should be improved, not removed. Susuman77 (talk) 16:26, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, people over here, calm down. Wait for a third-party to voice their thoughts. It's still a dialogue. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 16:57, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

. Taivo's description above in their first post describes what I'm seeing pretty well right now. We don't use first-hand accounts for much of anything on Wikipedia really. The map may have some editorial oversight, but it appears like it's based on just recollection rather than confirmation of the locations. I wouldn't consider the source reliable for the content that was removed (though it's also a weight question a bit too). Susuman77 brought up the idea of more general statistics being presented later in this conversation. That's a little better, but I would imagine there are plenty of more reliable sources out there for that basic information than this one. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:02, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your opinion, Kingofaces43! Allow me to disagree with you on one point: I don't think the content of the website is "based on just recollection rather than confirmation of the locations". Gathering testimonies is indeed a crucial part of their work, but far from the only aspect. To quote our article on them (paragraph unfortunately without inline references, but I can look for them), "the team includes a photographer, ballistics expert, translators, drivers, daily report recorders, a witness interviewer and camera operator. During each trip, the team travels from village to village, where they interview and film the surviving eyewitnesses, using testimony of witnesses to discover the locations of the graves. Once the graves are located, the team uses high-tech equipment to obtain forensic evidence that validates the testimonies." The data and testimony videos they publish on the site are only a fraction of their work. If we look at a random location (Klimovo), we also see excerpts of Soviet investigative reports and their own trip reports. More data seems available if you register as a researcher. All in all, it seems like the work of a dedicated professional research team, who selected and interpreted the primary material (forensic + testimonies), making it a secondary source rather than a gathering of recollection with "some editorial oversight". I have not found scholarly criticism of their methods and conclusions. On the contrary, honorary doctorates from NYU or Hebrew University show they receive respect from fellow Holocaust researchers. A brief research shows them taking part in a scholarly conference (Paris Sorbonne 2007), and the US Holocaust Memorial Museum praises them and insists on their close collaboration ([64]).

On the other hand, I tend to think that the bare quotes from witnesses as inserted by User:Yahad-In Unum are not the best way to exploit this material in WP. I would rather support summaries sourced to them, but focused on numbers, dates, and a short description of the events (explicitly attributed to surviving witnesses so that is clear, but without unnecessary direct quotes). Would you favor such an approach for these Ukrainian town articles? Susuman77 (talk) 21:53, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That changes things up a little bit for me then. I would still consider the location information a WP:PRIMARY source from the website still, but it does seem reliable to say the group claims to have found sites now with that attribution. That at least brings it past my minimum threshold where I normally wouldn't consider using a source in question. I'd look for secondary sources that are summarizing this information instead though. The reason why I don't consider this source a secondary source though is because all the work is basically part of the same project. It's similar to designing a scientific experiment that has multiple steps. Even though you are collecting the data (i.e., forensics + testimony) you are still interpreting those findings and presenting them (i.e., maps). I'd look for sources that cite this source and see what they say. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:06, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You make a convincing point for the "primary" status of this source. Reading WP:PRIMARY, it seems to me that such sources can be used "with care". I think info published on that website can be used in such a way, with attribution, as the organization that publishes it has a good scholarly reputation and can be relied upon to not publish blatantly false material. I would use them for bare facts in such a way: "On <date>, Einsatzgruppen killed <number> Jewish inhabitants of <locality>. According to testimonies gathered by Yahad-In Unum, they were <shot and buried in a mass grave, and non-Jewish inhabitants were forced to dig the graves (or similar details)>." with ref to the relevant page. Additional context (dates of German occupation, size of Jewish community/general town population before/after the war) can be added from other sources. For more controversial statements, such as voluntary collaboration of local population in the massacres, more secondary sources would probably be needed. Their research is pretty recent and more detailed than any previous one on the Holocaust in former Soviet territories, which means it is still difficult to find secondary sources that would go in such detail about each locality. It does not mean in my opinion that mentioning those events in the history sections of the articles about the towns is undue weight: these towns had often a sizable Jewish population, if not a majority of Jewish inhabitants, until the Einsatzgruppen murdered them, drastically altering the demographic, religious, cultural nature of the places. As such, not mentioning it would be detrimental to a comprehensive encyclopedic overview of each town's history. Susuman77 (talk) 22:30, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I must, however, express one difference that Susuman77 and myself still apparently have, however. That is directly related to the first instance that got my attention here (link above), where an eyewitness statement is the only thing added to an article and contained no numbers and no hard data, just the quote, "They shot some of us and threatened us." That is simply not encyclopedic. Please name a town in Eastern Europe that didn't have that same experience with the Nazis. It is like saying, "Every day in Prescott, Arizona, the sun rises in the east and the citizens have the right of free speech." It's sad that it happened, but it's not anything unique to that town and doesn't need to be stated for every town in Ukraine. Numbers, dates, etc.--that is encyclopedic content, but simply a former resident saying the Nazis were doing what Nazis did everywhere is not encyclopedic. --Taivo (talk) 23:21, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I get your point, sadly. However, the enormity of the Nazis' crimes makes it in my opinion more necessary to document them painstakingly town by town. Yes, a simple mention of the event is not enough, but I do not feel it right to remove it instead of improving it. I think the ideal solution would combine data on population before and after the war, dates of occupation and massacres, perpetrators, and a brief summary of events from testimonies/investigations (some sourced narrative in addition to numbers is not unencyclopedic, just look at some WW2 GAs and FAs). YiU is an important source for that, not the only one. I'll try to develop a model and look for good complementary sources in the next weeks. If we can achieve that, I guess the debate we're having here and now would become irrelevant. Susuman77 (talk) 23:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]