User talk:Jytdog

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Welcome!

Hello, Jytdog, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! --Edcolins (talk) 18:42, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I'm writing you about restoring the deleted article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Haulmont. As it is mentioned in instructions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review, firstly I'm writing you as a closing administrator. What do you think, can we restore article about CUBA Platform? — Preceding unsigned comment added by E.lavrenkov (talk • contribs) 14:17, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The closing admin was Phantomsteve Jytdog (talk) 14:19, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have protected and archived this talk page per the request of Jytdog, as communicated to Arbcom. He requested the comment "no drama, please" posted here. Speaking for myself, I don't think holding these conversations here is a good idea, the very subject of the page is unable to participate, and these conversations can better be held in a few project-space venues. Courcelles (talk) 17:26, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You have been blocked from editing for abuse of editing privileges in relation to information which has been removed from Wikipedia's public records.
If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you should review the guide to appealing blocks, and then email the Arbitration Committee at arbcom-enwikimedia.org.

---

Administrators: Information which has been oversighted was considered when this block was placed. Therefore the Oversight team or the Arbitration Committee must be consulted before this block can be removed. Administrators undoing oversight blocks without permission from an oversighter risk having their administrator rights removed by the Arbitration Committee (per this announcement).

 -- GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:36, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

	The Original Barnstar
	Many thanks for all you have done over the years. And hope to see you back editing soon. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please email the Arbitration Committee? Emails are bouncing from the email address we were previously using. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:41, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just had a run-in with your nemesis over at Kevin Folta's website, still going on about the microbiome. Underinformed monomania is a terrible thing. Looking forward to your return! Rskurat (talk) 22:45, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jytdog is unblocked with a topic ban from all matters related to COI editing. This includes investigations and allegations against other editors, and edits to the COIN noticeboard and its talk page. He is permitted to participate in discussions about related policies or guidelines, and discussions about whether content is promotional or non-neutral; however, he may not discuss specific editors' potential conflicts of interest as part of these discussions. He is warned that any further violations of the outing policy will be cause for a site ban.

Any breach of this topic ban, or any subsequent incident in which you reveal non-public information about another user will result in an indefinite block by the Arbitration Committee. To avoid ambiguity, "non-public information" includes (but is not limited to) any information about another user including legal names and pseudonyms, workplace, job title, or contact details, which that user has not disclosed themselves on the English Wikipedia or other WMF project. You may appeal this topic ban in six months, and every six months thereafter.^[1]

For the Arbitration Committee, GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:00, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to state that I am extremely sorry to hear that Jytdog is topic-banned from all matters related to COI editing, including the COIN board. Jytdog is hands down the very best editor on the COIN board (and practically the only one who ever takes any action), and the very best (if not the only!) editor at handling, labeling, and preventing COI on Wikipedia. Barring him from this activity is going to be a huge net negative for Wikipedia. I sincerely hope that this topic ban can be lifted at some time in the near future. Softlavender (talk) 10:03, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Except there were no violation of the outing policy in the first place. Not to mention the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Harassment is pretty clear that there is no consensus actions taken by Jytdog were not within policy, and the actual policy wording as written at the time supported it. Lets also not bring up that WMF made it perfectly clear the distinction between what is and is not private material. So frankly unblocking with a ban on COI related discussion and 'further violations of the outing policy' when no actual violation of the outing policy has taken place, smacks of punishment for the blocker's mistake. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:22, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. This topic ban seems to me to be a mistake, unfair, against policy, and hugely destructive to Wikipedia. I am assuming 100% good faith, but errors and poor decisions (including group decisions) are also made in good faith. I would at the very least like to see this topic-ban decision brought out into community discussion rather than imposed without publicly viewable discussion. Softlavender (talk) 11:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded (or is it thirded?) It is difficult to assume good faith on the part of wiki administrators after this. All of the information we have points to one conclusion: there was no violation to begin with. It is understandable to see administration make errors - they are only human, and who are we to judge when we have not been in their position? - but to refuse to admit a mistake, and instead "doubling down" by inappropriately defanging someone who was doing good, albeit controversial, work, causes bystanders such as myself to strongly consider full disengagement from the WP project. Ultimately that damages the project as mentioned above. And if I were Jytdog, I would be concerned that even speaking in self-defense would be inappropriately considered a "further" violation. Jtrevor99 (talk) 14:47, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion there was nothing whatsoever controversial about the tireless work Jytdog has been doing for years in COI/COIN. His content editing on controversial subjects sometimes drew fire, but his day-in day-out far-beyond-the-call-of-duty work at COIN was one of the most important tasks anyone has ever engaged in on Wikipedia. Topic-banning him from this means the spammers and COIs win. How can this possibly be good for Wikipedia? Especially when there was no violation in the first place? I would like to ask the Arbs how and where this topic ban can be appealed. Softlavender (talk) 22:28, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the confusion—as I just mentioned below, I failed to copy the second paragraph of the unblock conditions text when I posted this onwiki. I've just added it above. Jytdog may appeal the topic ban himself in six months. As for other methods of appealing ArbCom decisions that you and Doc James ask about, the relevant portion of the current arbitration policy is here: Any editor may ask the Committee to reconsider or amend a ruling, which the Committee may accept or decline at its discretion. The Committee may require a minimum time to have elapsed since the enactment of the ruling, or since any prior request for reconsideration, before reviewing it. Remedies may be appealed to, and amended by, Jimbo Wales, unless the case involves Jimbo Wales' own actions. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:42, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, GorillaWarfare. What would the "minimum time to have elapsed" be in this case, for others to ask the Committee to reconsider or amend this ruling? Jytdog isn't stupid; I'm sure he has learned not to do what he did in the precise manner in which he did it. I feel that as he is the only really skilled or successful COIN-board editor around, it is imperative for the sake of the project to allow Jytdog to get back to doing what he does best. Softlavender (talk) 00:11, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We placed the standard six-month waiting period on Jytdog for his appeal. We didn't discuss others challenging the decision, so I can't unilaterally say. The best way to get an answer on that would probably be an email to arbcom-l, since it will have to be discussed among us. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:30, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes so that is an excellent question, how do we as the community hold arbcom accountable? The easiest way will be the next election is the fall. There will be 7 positions open for election. We need candidates who see undisclosed paid editing as a problem and therefore feel it is important to do something about it. And than we need to elect those candidates. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:02, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• User:GorillaWarfare - in the offer that Arbcom made to me, you all noted that I could appeal the TBAN in 6 months. Would you please confirm that? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 23:05, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Yikes, thanks for pointing this out; I apparently left out the entire second paragraph of the unblock conditions text. I've added it above, with a note to clarify. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:34, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Doc James raises the issue of holding ArbCom accountable, an issue not unfamiliar to me after my own run-in with last year's Committee. But I also think that we are all really on the same team here, and it would be a mistake to regard the situation too much as being an adversarial one. I know that quite few current members of ArbCom have very good reasons to regard harassment as a serious matter, and speaking in general, of course it is. At my own talk page, one can see two current Arbs taking opposite positions on how to balance COI versus outing. And if anything is clear from the RfC Doc James opened at the harassment policy talk page, it's that the responses are divided nearly 50-50, and the community really does not have a clear consensus either way. So I strongly advise the Arbs to consider that fact, about the lack of clarity in the community. In the mean time, the best thing to do is to find creative ways to make it easier to clean up COI without having a conflict with the outing policy. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I'll be starting an RfC soon, about creating a private mailing list of Functionaries to handle COI evidence privately. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:22, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I'm glad to see that all of that is over with! You have been missed. I trust that now you'll stay out of conflict, and I look forward to seeing you around again. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:27, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Oh yay and I can edit my page and everything. Jytdog (talk) 06:55, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to see you back! Hope you still can find something you think is interesting to edit. Is it an "indefinite-can-ask-for-unban-in-a-year" topic-ban? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:15, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for asking - I asked for clarification above. I am travelling this week but will get back to editing my usual health/medicine related topics when I return. :) Jytdog (talk) 23:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC)¨[reply]

Glad to hear it. Wikipedia is better with you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:16, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can't wait :-) Alexbrn (talk) 11:16, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good to see that you're back. I'm sorry to hear that you're topic banned from anything COI-related, but hopefully you'll find working in other areas just as fulfilling. Altamel (talk) 01:46, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw that you are back after I clicked on your contributions in the edit history of the Physical attractiveness article. I was checking up on that article after spotting a recent edit to it on my watchlist. Your userpage is also on my watchlist, but I was absent from the site for two days and missed this section. Anyway, welcome back. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:47, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks both of you! Jytdog (talk) 20:14, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A few months ago, you redirected it, after removing lots of MEDRS problems. Was the nuking of the whole article for similar MEDRS problems? Your conversion was just undone by another editor who has some problematic history (including MEDRS), but I wanted to get your thought on your first edits first before I do anything. DMacks (talk) 19:28, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for catching that. I merged and redirected because there was already some badly done discussion of this in the ND article (see this version) and we only would need the child article on poisoning article if the toxicity section in the parent article got too unwieldy and it didn't... Jytdog (talk) 20:14, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]