Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking/Proposed decision

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Active:

1. Cool Hand Luke
2. Coren
3. FayssalF
4. FloNight
5. Jayvdb
6. Kirill Lokshin
7. Newyorkbrad
8. Risker
9. Rlevse
10. Roger Davies
11. Stephen Bain
12. Vassyana
13. Wizardman

Recused:

1. Carcharoth
2. Casliber

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To update this listing, edit this template and scroll down until you find the right list of arbitrators.

I added Remedy 1.3 to balance the concerns that the dispute will resume after the case closes, with the idea that the Community can find a way forward now that the other remedies are in place. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:06, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems a bit contradictory though; you restrict date linking for a defined period of 6 months (no matter what), and then you say that it shouldn't be done until a Community-approved process has developed. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it can be misunderstood, it could stand rephrasing; but it is seems clear enough to me: the restriction consists of the requirement that community approval of any such process be demonstrated to ArbCom before implementation. In other words, either six months or community approval is necessary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a terrible encroachment on the community. For user conduct, all applicable remedies have been dealt with. But for formatting concerns, if the community comes to consensus and has a plan for moving forward, why should the community have to come to ArbCom first to have it "approved"? Arbcom isn't there to approve content decisions by the community, is it? – Quadell ^(talk) 19:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All ArbCom approves here is the claim that there is consensus. Since that has been one of the major issues throughout this case, it seems only sensible to have a witness that consensus actually exists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Septentrionalis said what I was going to say, except that there's a possible ambiguity whether it's "and" or "or". As Arbcom remedies are explicitly "indefinite" if longer than a year, I'd have to say that Septentrionalis's interpretation is more accurate than mine. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly this could use rephrasing: For the next six months, any mass delinking of dates must demonstrate, before implementation, to ArbCom that there is community support amounting to WP:Consensus for the delinking process.? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, it appears my statement was based on a misreading. On (much later) re-reading, I retract my objection and apologize for the confusion. – Quadell ^(talk) 00:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This looks fine to me. Mass date delinking doesn't require ArbComs approval, just community consensus and that ArbCom is notified. --Apoc2400 (talk) 19:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"1.3) All mass date delinking is restricted for six months. For six months, no mass date delinking should be done until the Arbitration Committee is notified of a Community approved process for the mass delinking."

Sorry, I stared at it and wondered whether it means:

1.3) No mass date delinking should be performed for six months or until the Committee is notified of a community-approved process for mass date linking—whichever is earlier."

Does it? Tony (talk) 07:54, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good paraphrase. The committee will be looking to endorse any community approved process before the community implements it. The more obvious the community approval, the less of a role the committee will play in determining whether the implementation can proceed. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 10:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarifying that this is the intended meaning. WRT your additional comment, I wonder whether you might discuss this with Arbitrator Vassyana, who commented after his vote: "This is a good proposal. It creates a preventative restriction that automatically lifts upon notice of a community approved process." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony1 (talk • contribs) 11:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above, if community approval is not questionable, this proposal would mean that the committee is bound to lift the restriction as soon as it is notified. I doubt we would automatically lift it if the community approval is contrived and/or the notice is deceptive.

Do you agree that if we are notified of a "community approved process", Vassyana and I have said the same thing? John Vandenberg ^(chat) 13:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not really: Arb. Vassyana says "automatically lifts upon notice of a community approved process"; you have interpolated greater detail, which may or may not represent what other arbitrators think: "The more obvious the community approval, the less of a role the committee will play in determining whether the implementation can proceed." I'm unsure what to make of it. But at the moment, the more important issue is how ArbCom defines "mass delinking" ... see below. Tony (talk) 16:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question to arbs: Would this also apply to re-linking? That wouldn't be any more helpful than delinking. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well the difference is that no one is arguing that we should link everything or even most things. So anyone who wanted to do "mass" linking would be going against pretty much everyone's consensus and could be addressed quickly. As for the community notifying Arbcom of a consensus, I'd like to suggest that whoever pulls that together is not one of the named parties here. Its time for fresh voices and better discussion. dm (talk) 21:58, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another question: what is the definition of 'mass delinking'? Back in February Arb Jayvdb stated

If you are consciously removing each bracket, and edit articles at a rate which is consistent with that, the injunction doesnt restrict you. The injunction doesnt completely prohibit the use of scripts, however editors should not be primarily focused on delinking.

But at different times I've ended up blocked by one admin for exactly that sort of editing - delinking in the course of my normal gnoming activities - and also not blocked by another admin for exactly the same sort of editing. And Arb Wizardman has perfomed this sort of editing but escaped censure. So we need clarification of what's allowed and what's not. Colonies Chris (talk) 22:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Three questions for the arbitrators and the community[edit]

In relation to the matter above, dm claimed:

... the difference is that no one is arguing that we should link everything or even most things. So anyone who wanted to do "mass" linking would be going against pretty much everyone's consensus and could be addressed quickly.

Forgive my cynicism, but User:Kendrick7 went on a brazen campaign of relinking dates during and after the blocking of Colonies Chris for performing his standard gnoming duties. Kendrick7 was reported at the ArbCom enforcement page. Nothing was done about it (admin. said: oh, I didn't catch him in time).

Tony, in this war, bad things were done by both sides, let's move past specific incidents and look at the bigger picture. I have no problem with the proposal being worded so that both linking and delinking are prohibited, but if there's *one* thing that we can all agree that came out of Ryan's RFC is that there is consensus that some dates may be linked if appropriate, but not all dates, nor even most dates. Can you point to anyone who's been arguing for more linking than that since Ryan's RFC? dm (talk) 08:55, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This has little to do with the matter I have raised. "Relinking" has been removed from the wording. Why? Tony (talk) 16:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Tony's comments and concerns above are, I would say, a natural reaction to the rather poisoned atmosphere which surrounds the case. Your reaction is understandable, but the fears are symptomatic not only of the absence of trust in the linkers, but questions over the justice of the meandering process itself. Ohconfucius (talk) 09:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• And yes, there is at least one editor who continues to talk about retaining all square brackets around dates. Ohconfucius (talk) 09:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• However, no editor has advocated linking all dates. Please do not try to deceive the community by asking if they do or don't want date links if you really wanting something else removed (the square brackets; the markup). There is a simpler software solution to removing date links that doesn't involve the use of scripts/bots to perform the operation. It also leaves open the possibility of forcing date links where such links are intentional. All the while this leaves open the door for fixing auto formatting (something community desires in some form, and has not rejected outright except in its current incarnation). —Locke Cole • t • c 10:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to know:

1. why the reference to relinking in the "temporary" injunction has been removed from the current proposal,
2. why, despite persistant problems for admins and editors alike in defining "mass delinking"—and apparent injustices—the term remains vague in the proposal; and
3. how the ArbCom policy, which is very clear under "Injunctions" that such measures have effect only during a case, mandates what appears to be a huge expansion of ArbCom's power.Tony (talk) 07:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• You know that one of the big problems all throughout this case has been scope creep... Ohconfucius (talk) 08:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Frankly I wish the scope had been expanded to cover all of MOS at the outset (and at least one arbitrator agreed when he accepted this case); the behavioral patterns (off-wiki collusion and cabal-like behavior) become more obvious if you look at other disputes at MOS. —Locke Cole • t • c 10:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

to be clear...[edit]

To be clear, ArbCom is taking the position of judging whether or not a consensus exists for implementation in the desire of promoting peace? — BQZip01 — ^talk 23:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think so, and the consensus would be formed at another RfC that is in the works. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dabomb, I should have been more specific (nothing against you personally): I'd like to hear an Arbitrator's opinion on the matter just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. — BQZip01 — ^talk 08:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do believe that if ArbCom is to take the extraordinary step of imposing restrictions on the entire WPian community, including anyone in the world who visits and makes an edit, that the meaning of the term "mass delinking" needs to be clarified, either in the wording of the motion or here. Admins and other editors deserve to know where the boundaries lie. By contrast, the operation of the temporary injunction was marred by inconsistency in the application of blocking for alleged breaches. That is good for no one.

I believe it is reasonable for the community to assume that John Vandenberg's explanation, as Colonies Chris cites above, will pertain:

"If you are consciously removing each bracket, and edit articles at a rate which is consistent with that, the injunction doesn't restrict you. The injunction doesn't completely prohibit the use of scripts, however editors should not be primarily focused on delinking."

I'm sorry to nit-pick, but the devil is in the detail, and feedback on a few solid examples would help admins and other editors to get it right.

Are the following examples acceptable? In each scenario, no note is left on the article talk page by the unlinking editor, before or after his/her edit. The unlinking editor politely discusses any related issue if ever raised on her/his talk page concerning such edits. If the date links are reinstated by another editor, the unlinking editor is polite and does not challenge the reverter.

1. The editor performs a copy-edit to improve the language/style of a medium- to large-size article by treating about 10 words or phrases (let's say from eight to 12 on average), and as well, unlinks the full (month-day-year) dates in the article. The process takes 5–10 minutes. The editor does this on average three times a day.
2. Same as (1.), except that no full dates are linked; instead, the editor copy-edits and unlinks isolated month-day and year items that s/he considers do not pass the relevance test that the community endorsed (now in MOSNUM and MOSLINK). Average three times a day.
3. Same as (1. or 2.), but an average of ten articles a day.
4. The editor unlinks only full and apparently irrelevant dm or year items without associated article improvement in an average of one article a day, but treats an average of, say, three other articles each day in which date unlinking is not involved.
5. Same as (5.), but an average of three articles and three other articles a day, respectively.
6. A more prolific wikignome treats 16 articles a day, four minutes on each, in which about half (eight) might involve at least one unlinking of a chronological item.

These examples seem to me not to represent the campaign of "mass unlinking" that ArbCom might be concerned would run the risk of causing disruption. Can ArbCom please comment so the community knows where it stands? Tony (talk) 16:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All six seem acceptable to me, although I would not encourage 4 & 5; generally speaking, edits whose only purpose is to unlink dates would best be made after the relevant guidelines had been adopted and stabilized. Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 13:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Kirill assessment of the situation. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll third that. None of the examples are "mass unlinking" by any reasonable interpretation of the phrase, although edits that only unlink dates might be unwise at this time for different reasons. — Coren ^(talk) 17:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Per Kirill. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 18:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An editor who does "6" on a regular basis could be crossing the line if they delink every date/year/century from those eight pages. If they are leaving the most important links, or adding links to "xxxx in science", they should be fine provided they don't edit war. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 00:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two more examples of clarification needed:

1. A user who is about to submit an article or list to FAC (featured article candidate) or FLC (featured list candidate) delinks the dates in the article to comply with the criteria for those processes. The user does not make any other changes in that edit, but does not proceed to delink dates in any other article. I think an exception can be made for that instance also.
2. A reviewer of an FAC or FLC delinks the dates in the article/list that they are reviewing. They do not make any more changes in terms of edits to that article, but their delinking is made in conjuntion with a full list of suggestions on how to improve the article/list at the FAC/FLC page. The reviewer does not delink dates in any other article. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:24, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Both of those look fine as well, although they can obviously be gamed by someone sufficiently motivated; if someone submits a hundred lists to FLC per day, delinking them as they go, that would be problematic. It may be better to frame the first one as "a significant editor of an article or list who is about to submit it...". Kirill ^[talk] [pf] 13:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would report such a person myself, in view of the need to regain trust among editors on the issue. A hundred nominations to FLC by one editor in a month would be laughed out of the house on the basis of compliance with the criteria, in any case. I think we are safe from such abuse. Tony (talk) 14:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Kirill's comments. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Per Kirill and also agree with Tony. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 18:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to the arbitrators for their timely and reasonable replies. I'll second Tony in saying (as a very active editor at FLC and fairly active at FAC) that no editor with any bit of common sense would do that (what Kirill described) and expect to get away with it. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Kirill - featured review forums are heavily trafficked, so these delinking scenarios have plenty of careful eyes on them, lots of discussion, and the process itself limits the number of articles affected. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 00:11, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More clarification requested on the injunction[edit]

In the light of the answers above, here is a very specific question. Suppose a wikignome performs the following eleven article edits in a single session:

• Around 10 changes, of which one was a delinking of a bare year
• Around 20 changes, of which two were unlinking of decades (the second of which was a duplicate link)
• Over 30 changes, of which 1 was a delinking of an autoformatted date
• 7 changes, of which 3 were delinking autoformatted dates
• A large number of changes, including quite a few date fragment unlinkings, almost all of which were bare day-month links
• Around 15 changes, of which 3 were delinking bare years
• 6 changes, of which 1 was delinking an autoformatted date
• 7 changes, of which 1 was delinking an autoformatted date
• 9 changes, of which 2 were delinking autoformatted dates
• 13 changes, of which one was delinking a bare year, 2 were delinking autoformatted dates, and one was delinking a date incorrectly autoformatted inside an {{as of}} template
• 4 changes, of which 3 were delinking autoformatted dates (the other was a spelling correction).

Is he in operating within the terms of the injunction or is he so grossly violating it that, in the words of Arb Jayvdb, "the block for 24 hrs is extremely light, and he should have been blocked for much longer for flagrantly ignoring the injunction."?

I would appreciate a clear answer to this question as my activities as a wikignome are entirely dependent on it. Arbs may also like to be aware of the consequences of travesty of justice this case has become - one of our best and most prolific gnoming editors, User:John has retired in disgust at his mistreatment here. Colonies Chris (talk) 10:06, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another valuable editor, User:HJensen has also announced his intention to take a long wikibreak as a result of his treatment in this case. But Arbcom seem not to care that they have driven away decent and hardworking editors who won't accept being made victims of this witchhunt. Colonies Chris (talk) 16:42, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that User:HJensen announcement of a long wikibreak is a terrible loss. He and I worked congenially on his FA article Frank Zappa, the subject of much vandalizm, and never have I seen him react in any but an appropriate manner that was never aggressive. His editing behavior is always of the utmost in civility. It is extremely unfortunate that a few of his edits are seen as been part of this controversial situation regarding delinking. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 16:54, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

John has left as well. Another one gone. Grown-ups treated like children and sent to the corner, especially when they can see no justice in the punishment, tend to spurn and resent. Is that what ArbCom wants? It's not as though there's an inexhaustible supply of top-notch editors. Tony (talk) 18:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Colonies Chris is seeking to clarify his wikignoming compliance[edit]

Above, Colonies Chris, one of our leading wikignomes who has applied much skill and experience to the maintenance of WP articles (with admirable politeness) asks what might at first seem like a re-run of the questions asked by dabomb87 and me, and kindly clarified by several arbitrators.

I suspect that now the dust has settled, he may not have been blocked as occurred in March, when uncertainty abounded about the application of the temporary injunction. But either way, he is concerned to know how to comply with the new restriction on "mass date delinking"; such delinking forms only a small part of his gnoming, as you can see in the list above. I know arbitrators have a full agenda, but if Chris could be re-assured that he may undertake his careful work (which he does at a slow, considered pace), that might resolve the matter, which would be of great benefit to the project. Tony (talk) 09:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have not been involved in this dispute. I do occasional work on MOS pages (I have some relevant real life experience), but I am not one of the "regulars" there.

I apologize for commenting at this late stage in these proceedings. It was only yesterday, however, that I looked at the proposed decision for the first time. There is an important consideration that the proposed topic ban and edit restrictions being considered for Tony1 overlook: Tony1 is one of the very, very best stylists and wordsmiths on Wikipedia. His user space essays and exercises on writing are of publishable quality, and superior to much of what is professionally publshed. Therefore, banning him indefinitely from editing any policy or guideline page on style deprives the Wikipedia project of a valuable resource specifically where his expertise is most useful.

Because of the nature of wiki editing, the MOS pages require periodic maintenance: copy editing, organizing, assuring consistency of guidelines throughout all the MOS pages, and wikifying the MOS pages themselves so they serve as models of MOS compliance. Tony1 excels at that work. He also excels at both formulating specific style guidelines and in wording guidelines clearly. It would be self-defeating for Wikipedia to deny itself all future contributions by Tony1 to style policies and guidelines.

Evidently, the issues of date linking and auto-formatting arouse extraordinary passions on both sides. I don't condone edit warring on that, or any, issue. However, prohibiting Tony1 from doing constructive work on any style policy or guideline is overly broad, especially because of the value to Wikipedia of Tony1's very many useful contributions in that area. Since the issues of date linking and auto-formatting are so extraordinarily contentious, it should not be necessary to bar Tony1 from all editing of style policies or guidelines, especially indefinitely. (If indefinitely is interpreted as until there is a change in circumstances, and Tony1 is broadly barred from the field, what circumstances could change that that would end the restrictions?)

One way to narrow these restrictions, and still retain Tony1's constructive contributions to Wikipedia style, would be to make the restrictions specific to date linking and date formatting. Another would be to restrict Tony1, for some reasonable but definite period, from making substantive changes to style guidelines without first obtaining consensus for the change on a talk page. A third would be to prohibit specific conduct that constitutes edit warring.

Please consider the restrictions to be imposed on Tony1 with a view to retaining the benefit that Wikipedia derives from his constructive contributions to Wikipedia's style guidelines and policies. Thank you. Finell (Talk) 18:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"what circumstances could change that that would end the restrictions?" - Tony could demonstrate conclusively that he is able to play nicely with others. — Hex (❝?!❞) 19:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand remedy 9.3, Tony will be free to contribute anywhere in the MOS talk pages as well as in user space, and I expect that he will continue to do so with his usual skill and expertise. Now that the heat has gone out of the dispute (and I am disappointed that ArbCom has not acknowledged Ryan's WP:DATEPOLL in achieving much of that), Tony and the other affected parties will have the opportunity by their contributions and behaviour to demonstrate that these restrictions are unnecessary. Because of the nature of "indefinite" restrictions, I sincerely hope that ArbCom will review the situation in a few months time, and be open to hearing an argument that these sanctions could then be profitably lifted. --RexxS (talk) 20:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I petition for the ability to discuss (although I do not expect to; I've said my piece on what I hope MOS will be, and some agreed; I'm willing to see what happens). The only evidence for my edit-warring, after all, is this ill-advised sequence, in which the edit-war was with Tony. If that is unacceptable, give me the three months I expect to stay away from the MOS disasters anyway. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I support AKAF's remarks about bots that are now in Archive 2. There are too many bots on Wikipedia, and BAG (being composed of bot enthusiasts) aren't really representing the editing community in that it's too willing to delegate functions to bots that really should be done by humans, through policy adjustments or server side code when necessary. The amount of bot drama on WP and in arb cases is increasing steadily and will keep doing so unless something is done. One suggestion for these cases is editing restrictions of the form "so-and-so is prohibited from editing more than 25 mainspace pages in any 24-hour period". This is adapted from a restriction developed for Betacommand through pretty good consensus at an ANI sub-page. It had the advantage of being simple to understand and enforce, and resists typical gaming ploys ("that wasn't a bot, I had 50 browser tabs open" etc.) while leaving enough space for normal human editing.

As a meta-comment, Brad asked why this case is such a clusterfuck. I believe it comes from the culture of ambiguity intolerance that Wikipedia cultivates, and its acceptance of gaming and wikilawyering. The parties in this case are unusually bad products of that culture. They aren't stupid or clueless, so arbcom should respond sharply. (The genuinely clueless, like BC, are usually met with more forbearance). There is a meme in WP dispute resolution that we must put up with endless crap from tendentious dicks because otherwise, newbie editors might be dissuaded from editing. To state the obvious, plenty of oldbie editors quit (or retire to the more placid corners of the encyclopedia) because of the crap. Really, among WP's endless rules and policies, "use common sense" doesn't hold nearly enough sway. Constant codification of boundaries is actually counterproductive, not just because editors exist who want to push right up to the boundaries, but because they foster a culture that actually grows such editors. Stop treating WP DR like a court of law with endless "due process"; it isn't one, it has no real investigative or sanctioning powers (the most it can do is throw someone off of a web site, not put them in jail), and nobody really has a right to edit here. Most editors with any sense can work productively even in controversial areas without getting into trouble, so is it really asking too much to tell those unwilling to act sensibly to take their antics elsewhere?

Regarding rude developers, sanctioning off-wiki actions isn't in arbcom's jurisdiction, but as arbcom reports to the WMF I'd presume it's allowed to refer issues to other WMF projects (including mediawiki development) through the Foundation in situations that warrant it. I hadn't felt this was one of those situations but some other posts to the talk archives indicate that it might be. Anyway, it could always simply note this possibility in "principles" and then pass a remedy encouraging everyone to stay civil in all venues. 67.122.209.126 (talk) 07:47, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should the auto-archiving here be turned off, now that this page is likely to go out of use? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I second the question. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Done. — Coren ^(talk) 12:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]