Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Meijer (politician)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) – AssumeGoodWraith (talk | contribs) 13:04, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Meijer (politician)[edit]

Paul Meijer (politician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Deleted several times on nl.wiki for lack of notability and repeatedly recreated there through partisan edit-warring. Notability for en.wiki seems doubtful as the highest elected office he has held was in the States-Provincial and he is famous mostly for internal bickering in far-right fringe parties. Mccapra (talk) 13:01, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 13:01, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 13:01, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. WP:NPOL says: Politicians and judges who have held international, national, or (for countries with federal or similar systems of government) state/province–wide office, or have been members of legislative bodies at those levels. This also applies to people who have been elected to such offices but have not yet assumed them. I think that being elected to a Provincial council (Netherlands) counts as holding a "state/province-wide office". Eastmain (talk • contribs) 16:33, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Served as a member of the North Holland States-Provincial. Passes WP:NPOL. --Enos733 (talk) 17:24, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The Netherlands does not have a "federal or similar system", so no passage of WP:NPOL. Provinces have very few powers in the Netherlands and the States-Provincial is therefore more equivalent to an American county council. - Tristan Surtel (talk) 18:55, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am not completely familiar with the government structure of the Netherlands. Relying on Provincial council (Netherlands), the councils seem to have some powers similar to a US state and are described more as regional governments, rather than local governments. I could be convinced that the council is more akin to a county council, rather than a provincial legislature. --Enos733 (talk) 20:00, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • The comparison with county councils is more based on the powers the provincial legislatures have than on their size or population. American states (and administrative divisions of any country with a federal system, for that matter) can create (criminal) laws, determine taxes, create a constitution, and make policy decisions about things such as healthcare, education, and the voting process. Prodemos, a Dutch democracy institution outlines the function of Dutch provinces on this page (only Dutch language). To summarize, they are only responsible for determining places for new industrial parks and neighborhoods, for handing out environmental permits to factories, for maintaining natural and recreational areas and cultural monuments, for maintaining regional infrastructure, for stimulating the regional economy, and for checking on municipal governments. They don't make actual laws, and I think that is the reason for the distinction in WP:NPOL. - Tristan Surtel (talk) 22:38, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • Striking my keep position due to previous discussion of the mainland French regional councils. My sense is that there is a scale of how much authority/autonomy a sub-regional legislature has - that there is not necessarily a yes/no distinction of whether the governing authority is a "federal or similar system." --Enos733 (talk) 17:11, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Passes the WP:GNG with relative ease. While the response above seems to focus on WP:NPOL #1, members of provincial assemblies are often covered under WP:NPOL #2. Meijer is no exception. Hence the keeps that mention NPOL are very valid. gidonb (talk) 02:20, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Clearly does not meet WP:NPOL for reasons Tristan Surtel explained. Coverage is limited to media on the local level. National sources have almost never discussed him, and never in such a manner that it is evidence of sufficient notability. Dajasj (talk) 13:41, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Local, regional, and national sources are valid. All exist and meet all other source criteria. gidonb (talk) 17:37, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment He clearly does not meet NPOL based on his postion. However I cannot figure out the state of the sourcing since I am not fluent in Dutch.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:46, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Hm an interesting case; there is a claim for an WP:NPOL #1 pass as well, as it states federal or similar, not exclusively federal. The Netherlands seems like one of the or similiars as it seems the provincial parliaments have a considerable amount of devolved power. Curbon7 (talk) 00:59, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• It's hard to draw a line, but when do you call it similar or considerable amount of power? Compared to federal systems like the US and Germany, they have a fraction of these powers. If even the Dutch province passes the test, which system does not? Dajasj (talk) 07:52, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment There cannot be a claim for NPOL#1, these provincial councils are not parliaments (ie legislatures), they are supervisory, administrative, regulatory bodies; yes, they are nominally a higher level than municipal/local government, but nevertheless, they mirror (functionally) local government over a larger area. We've not accorded presumed notability to members of the mainland French regional councils (see discussion here), the same applies to the Dutch provincial councils. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 12:59, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah there we go then. Curbon7 (talk) 19:26, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. I agree with the nominator that this politician is (fairly) "famous". They then seem to make an WP:IDONTLIKEIT claim but we examine elected officials by their merits. Not by how much we like their opinions or how mainstream or not these are.

Meijer obviously led a national movement that was not represented in the national parliament. This situation is not so well covered under NPOL #1. He was also elected time and again to local council and once (?) to the provincial council. But for his first provincial as the leader of his group.

Now, even if we were to hold that NPOL #1 is met (I am cautious in this matter), I have frequently seen subsequent requests that the topic also meets the WP:GNG (and with it WP:NPOL #2). In other words, meeting NPOL #2 is more important and final. Well, for Meijer the sources are clear:

[1] Bakker, Jouri (2 July 2021). "Forza!-oprichter haalt bakzeil in strijd om voorzitterschap, wel 'verheugd' over vonnis" [Forza! founder backs down in battle for presidency, yet 'delighted' with verdict]. NH Nieuws (in Dutch). Retrieved 8 January 2022.

[2] "Raadslid naar politie om losgedraaide wielen" [Councilor to police over loosened wheels] (Paywall). De Telegraaf. 3 August 2018. Retrieved 8 January 2022.

[3] Meershoek, Patrick (16 November 2020). "Haarlemmermeers Forza!-fractievoorzitter 'leefde op kosten van belastingbetaler'" [Haarlemmermeers Forza!-fraction chairman 'lived at the expense of the taxpayer']. Algemeen Dagblad. Retrieved 8 January 2022.

[4] Meershoek, Patrick (13 January 2021). "Oprichter Forza! Haarlemmermeer uit fractie gezet, doet live beklag op Facebook" [Founder Forza! Haarlemmermeer expelled from faction, complaints live on Facebook]. Algemeen Dagblad. Retrieved 8 January 2022.

[5] Boele, Bart (2 July 2021). "Rechter: Forza Haarlemmermeer is niet van Paul Meijer" [Forza Harlemmermeer does not belong to Paul Meijer]. Noordhollands Dagblad (in Dutch). Retrieved 8 January 2022.

[6] Boele, Bart (17 October 2021). "Paul Meijer (ex-Forza) gaat raadsverkiezingen Haarlemmermeer in voor BVNL" [Paul Meijer (ex-Forza) enters Haarlemmermeer council elections for BVNL]. Noordhollands Dagblad (in Dutch). Retrieved 8 January 2022.

[7] Brannan, Nicolai (18 October 2021). "Paul Meijer verder als lijsttrekker van partij van Haga 'BVNL' in Haarlemmermeer". NH Nieuws. Retrieved 8 January 2022.

All linked from the article. It is likely there are also quality sources from the first years (not in the article!) but this is sufficient. I have explained elsewhere that we have a lull between 2000 and 2005 (a bit before and after as well), as not yet covered by Delpher and not on the newspaper websites either. Anyway, let's focus on what we have and if someone wants to dig elsewhere, welcome of course. What we have is, in all but one case, signed by fine journalists. gidonb (talk) 17:30, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, most of these sources are provincial sources, no wonder they write about a local politician. The article from Algemeen Dagblad appears to be from Parool, also local. The only national newspaper is Telegraaf, which is known for its focus on drama. Personally, I'm not really convinced by these sources. His recent announcement also didnt make any quality national newspapers afaik. Dajasj (talk) 17:46, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Het Parool and Noordhollands Dagblad are well-known and read regional newspapers. Of course, local newspapers would still be valid so this is a nonargument. As long as they are verifiable, independent, etc. Just like the other sources. De Telegraaf is the most read national newspaper in the Netherlands. Algemeen Dagblad, the second-most read national newspaper, also carries this news on its site. It went into the print version of Het Parool, covering the greater Amsterdam region. Did I mention all reputable sources, all but one signed by fine journalists? gidonb (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 00:57, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, North Holland has a population of slightly under 3 million people, a newspaper which serves that region can hardly be considered a local paper. As such, given the numerous examples of non-WP:ROUTINE coverage cited, this person passes GNG. Devonian Wombat (talk) 12:31, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, for the reasons those who want to keep this article. Davidgoodheart (talk) 01:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. This AfD is already open for a while and all this time neither the nominator nor the sole person who supported this nomination have come forward with any factual basis for deletion, rooted in policy and guidelines. I have shown how there are plenty of independent, reliable, verifiable, in-depth high-quality sources, and, frankly, these kept coming after my list was added because interest in this person increased once more after he joined BVNL. This AfD seems to be an WP:IDONTLIKEIT nomination, where "fringe", by itself a very important and useful guideline, is wrongly evoked from this IDNLI background. gidonb (talk) 11:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment the nomination was based initially on his not being an unsuccessful candidate for national office. Being elected to a local council does not equate to an NPOL pass. When I saw that the nl.wiki article had been deleted for lack of notability this strengthened my concern. Finally, the sources in the article at the point of nomination did not look like the kind of coverage we’d want for a good GNG pass. My original nomination statement may not have been sufficiently clear if these points did not come across well. Mccapra (talk) 20:26, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The intro may be weak but your new message is slightly alarming as you seem to be headed to the same mistakes in the future and with it a huge waste of time for our community that would do better to invest its time in the article space. Since when is only looking at the sources in the article sufficient for a nomination? Does the WP:NEXIST rule, Notability is based on the existence of suitable sources, not on the state of sourcing in an article (the bold is in the source), not apply to you? Have you studied WP:BEFORE? Did you even now not look at WP:NPOL and the different routes to satisfy it? gidonb (talk) 05:39, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly it applies and if I’d seen other sources that looked solid I would not have nominated the article. A simple search for Paul Meijer brought up nothing at all for me about this individual. A search for “Paul Meijer Forza” brought up four pieces of news about disputes over funding that did not look to me like a sound basis for creating a bio article. I couldn’t even find anything that confirmed he was elected to the States Provincial. Mccapra (talk) 08:36, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, as he meets NPOL in my opinionJackattack1597 (talk) 00:56, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.