Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Jun 2024

We have received apologies from Deputies Ciarán Cannon and Imelda Munster. We have some housekeeping business to attend to first. Are the minutes of our meeting on 24 April 2024 formally agreed with no matters arising? Agreed.

This meeting has been convened today with Mr. Terence O'Rourke, to discuss his role and key priorities as the recently appointed chairperson of RTÉ. I welcome Mr. O'Rourke and congratulate him on his appointment. He is joined by Ms Aideen Howard, RTÉ board member; Ms Eimear Cusack, RTÉ director of human resources; and Mr. Robert Shortt, RTÉ company secretary. I also congratulate Mr. Shortt on his new appointment. The format of today's meeting is that I will invite Mr. O'Rourke to deliver his opening statement, which will be limited to five minutes if possible. As I am sure witnesses are aware, the committee may publish the opening statement on its webpage. This will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. Members have eight minutes for both questions and answers in accordance with the speaking rota circulated. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we proceed with Mr. O'Rourke's opening statement, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses regarding references made to other persons in evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and Statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation made to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action from anything they say at the meeting. Witnesses are, however, expected not to abuse this privilege and it is the duty of the Chair to ensure that that privilege is not abused. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings should be given and should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to that person's name, entity or good name. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are also reminded of the parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the houses or an official, either by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable. I would also like to remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit them to attend where they are not adherent to that constitutional requirement.

I call Mr. O'Rourke to make his opening statement. If he can stick to the five minutes, that would be great.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach, na Teachtaí Dala agus na Seanadóirí as an gcuireadh freastal ar an gcruinniú seo chun m’ainmniúchán a phlé mar chathaoirleach ainmnithe RTÉ ag an Aire Turasóireachta, Cultúir, Ealaíon, Gaeltachta, Spóirt agus na Meán, an Teachta Catherine Martin. Mar an gcéanna leis an Teachta Cannon, bhí Gaelige álainn liofa agam nuair a bhí mé i bhfad nios óige ach tá sé beagnach go léir caillte agam anois. Leanfaidh mé ar aghaidh i mBéarla. As the Chair said, I am accompanied by Ms Aideen Howard, non-executive director and chair of the RTÉ board’s programme committee; Mr. Robert Shortt, RTÉ company secretary; and Ms Eimear Cusack, RTÉ’s director of human resources.

I was honoured to be appointed as chair of the RTÉ board. I take the responsibility very seriously and I am committed to working with the rest of the board, the leadership team and staff in RTÉ, the Government and this committee, as well all our stakeholders, to create a new direction for RTÉ. My background is in finance. I worked with KPMG for 38 years and served as its managing partner and was a member of its global executive team and global board before I retired from the company in 2013. I am a fellow of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland and served as president of that organisation in the year 2004-05. I have a lot of experience serving on and leading boards for a wide range of organisations. I was previously chair of Enterprise Ireland and the IMI, and have served on the governing authority of DCU, the boards of The Irish Times, and Children’s Health Foundation, among others. I am also currently the chair of ESB.

I will address my role with RTÉ today, under the following three main headings: first, how RTÉ plans to develop and change to meet the many challenges, as well as opportunities, that it is faced with in a disruptive decade ahead; second, the urgent need for a sustainable and adequate financing framework; and, third, the many ongoing governance reforms and HR issues that are being addressed.

Before addressing those three issues, I will briefly comment on two points. First, I need again to acknowledge on behalf of the RTÉ board, our profound disappointment and regret about the actions, events and behaviours that triggered the several reports that investigated those issues. The organisation has learned from what happened and the necessary controls and procedures are being put in place to make sure that those kinds of events cannot happen again. Second, I acknowledge the great work of the staff of RTÉ in providing output of the highest quality across our television, radio and digital platforms before, during and since the difficult events of last year. RTÉ continues to successfully engage with an audience that can still be measured in reaching almost 90% of the Irish adult population on a weekly basis. The professionalism and commitment of the staff is at all times evident, despite the serious blow to morale and, on behalf of the board, I want to thank them for that.

As set out in the well-researched and deliberated Report of the Future of the Media Commission, how RTÉ delivers on its wide-ranging remit in the coming decade is challenged by a changing world in which technological advances, changing consumer behaviour and social needs challenge all media to develop new business models and new ways to engage with audiences or risk losing them. The spread of misinformation and disinformation risks undermining public confidence in news and information. The media system faces long-term economic challenges, including a decisive shift in advertising revenues away from media towards the technology firms that dominate the digital advertising market. This is compounded in the case of RTÉ by the increasing unsustainability of TV Licence fees as a source of public funding.

In the face of these significant challenges, and to take advantage of the opportunities that also present themselves in this quickly changing environment, it is vital that RTÉ takes steps to reposition itself. What RTÉ must do is, first, to invest significantly in new technology to enable it to be able to continue delivering on its public service media mandate in an increasingly digital first world. Second, we must change the way we make programmes by significantly increasing the proportion of productions made outside RTÉ by a growing, innovative and ever more creative independent production sector. That move was in line with the recommendations of the Future of Media Commission. Third, we must also look hard at what production and transmission facilities we will need to retain and upgrade to operate sustainably in the years head and, fourth, ensure we have the right skills to deliver for our changing audience. Fifth, RTÉ must focus even more on how we can best service the diverse needs of the people of Ireland, which will involve investing in facilities and production locations outside of Dublin. These issues will be the key components of our strategy for the next five years, which we are currently in the process of finalising. That strategy will fundamentally and importantly need a stable basis of financing.

The board of RTÉ welcomes the repeated assurances of the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and her Government colleagues that they expect to finalise a new financing framework for RTÉ over the next few weeks before the summer recess. We recognise that there are a range of choices open to the Government to decide on as to how that financing can be provided and that is a matter for the Government to decide on but from the board’s perspective, it is important that whatever form of financing is decided upon, it should be sufficient, predictable and independent.

I will finish with the issue of better Governance and HR policies. We welcomed the detailed expert advisory group reports in early May. The Minister asked that we provide detailed implementation plans within six weeks and we are on course to share those plans with her very soon.

Some of the recommendations are for the Government, with many more for RTÉ. I understand that it is the Minister's intention to bring the detailed implementation plans, containing both RTÉ's and the Government's plans, to Cabinet for approval later this month. We will be happy to discuss the final implementation plans with the committee also once they are published.

RTÉ's corporate governance, transparency and operations must be of a standard commensurate with its mandate of providing a vital public service. The board is focused on ensuring that RTÉ has corporate governance and transparency that should define it. This is important for our external stakeholders, and for RTÉ staff who provide such a critical public service. They deserve a healthy working environment in return.

I look forward to working with Government, staff in RTÉ and all our stakeholders, including this committee, in delivering the process of transformation that commenced last year. Committee members have played an important role to date, and we look forward to their continued engagement as we forge a new direction for RTÉ.

It is an interesting thing to think about, all right. I think RTÉ is a fantastic public institution and a very vital part of Ireland. Those of us who get those phone calls are privileged and have a duty to respond to them. It is an honour to be asked and there is an important job to be done. I have had some experience of leading boards in other organisations so I thought I might be able to help here.

No. The Senator can ask colleagues in either organisation at the moment and I think they will say that they are seeing enough of me and not too much of me, I hope. As a non-executive chair, I am not involved in the day-to-day weeds and stuff. It is a matter of making sure that the board is operating and that the oversight of management is happening in both organisations. I am happy that I am able to do both of those things.

In the ESB I have a long track record of successfully managing a very complex and large organisation. Financing of the ESB is considerable, much larger than RTÉ. There are very strong governance and board oversight processes. There is also a very strong system of financial controls. It is almost best in class of what I have seen in my career. The ESB does it as well as any organisation that I have seen in my career. I hope to bring some of those lessons to help RTÉ on its journey as well.

The report of the governance expert advisory committee points out that there are many lapses and things absent in the way RTÉ was being run. We have a very clear agenda for the things that need to be improved. Certainly, there were shortcomings which have been identified and well aired in this committee and elsewhere. We have a job of work ahead of us. We are well under way on it but it will take us a while to get everything done because we are determined to get it right.

There is a variety of reports. Some will take a while to do. There is the whole issue of the risk management framework and organisation. We will have to recruit people for that. In the HR ones, which Ms Cusack is very familiar with, there are a lot of detailed recommendations which will take a while to do. The timeframe is probably a year or more. Obviously, lots of things are already under way. Some are about to be finished and then there are other things that will take a little more time to reflect on and may depend on other things to happen. We will get at them as soon as we can. The implementation plan we are about to share with the Minister has a very detailed timetable. It also has a lot of detail about who is responsible for it and what the benchmarks are to decide when we are delivering those things. That extends over a period, probably over the next year, before we will be able to say that everything is done. We want to do it properly and right and rushing it will not be the right answer.

We are only beginning the engagement with the trade union group and the managers' association. We have been looking at the 26 recommendations in the HR report. For a number of these we will begin the engagement with the trade union group fairly shortly. At the moment what we have been trying to do is timeline them, because that is what we were asked to do. As Mr. O'Rourke has said, there are some that can be done quite quickly and some that will be a priority for the trade union group and us to get up and running. These will then enable other changes to happen. That will happen shortly, once we get the timelines in place.

Ireland is only one of three countries left in Europe that has a licence fee based on possession of a TV set. Many people who do not have a TV are watching RTÉ today. The are using their iPads or phones. A licence fee system which depends of TV set is archaic and outdated. The European Broadcasting Union, EBU, has surveyed the way public service media are financed across Europe. There are different models in place. The current system is not working properly. The household charge would be another example of public sector funding. There are different ways of doing it but all of them would probably be better than the current system.

Okay, so we get away from the current system. My personal view has always been that it should be done through Exchequer funding by means of an arm's length organisation managed by Coimisiún na Meán. I think there is a pretty good relationship between RTÉ and Coimisiún na Meán as the independent body, which is critical.

What are Mr. O'Rourke's biggest concerns having taken the job as chair? As an experienced business person, accountant and director, what were his concerns when he was doing his due diligence on RTÉ?

The first was that the financing model would be fixed. In my initial discussions with the Minister that was clearly a very important issue. Second, I wanted to make sure there was recognition that we needed to spend more, not just on technology and content but on governance and properly resourcing the bits of the organisation which had failed in the last year. Lots of parts of RTÉ are working really well and delivered fantastically over the last year in terms of our content and the production output. The areas of financial controls and risk management were underfunded. I wanted to make sure there was recognition in Coimisiún na Meán and elsewhere that those areas would be properly funded. I want to make sure our leadership team has the right skills and the board is also reflective of and addresses some of the issues dealt with in the expert report.

Yes, I agree. All of this good content has to be acknowledged. I also welcome a greater emphasis on moving into the digital space and realising that content is king. We have got to create more content, particularly for the digital side. It is probably fair to say that in the past the RTÉ Player did not have the best of reputations. Where does Mr. O'Rourke envisage RTÉ positioning itself in the digital age?

We are dealing with a world where people can watch media from all over the world on their phones. What we have to ensure is that the Irish content of interest to the Irish public, Irish sport, current affairs and news are available with the same high production values as CNN or the BBC. That is our goal. We have to be right up there with the best in terms of the quality of our digital apps and digital interactions. Our website, a new news and information app and an upgraded audio app are all under plans. They are all part of the strategy and great work has already been done on those areas.

Tá fáilte roimh an cathaoirleach nua agus na daoine eile freisin. The bit of Irish at the start of the opening statement was very nice. Mr. O'Rourke has a big job. Senator Byrne asked him his role on the board of the ESB and about the phone call he received from the Minister inviting him to become cathaoirleach of the board of RTÉ. I ask him please not to take the following question as in any way disparaging. He said he worked at KPMG for years. Would he not see himself as kind of an insider? He took the job and I wish him well in it, but I am just asking whether, given he has worked at the ESB, he might be seen as an insider?

It did not trouble Mr. O'Rourke at all, even in light of where we have come from and where we have arrived at in the context of the culture at RTÉ. I reiterate I have the height of respect for the vast majority of the staff at RTÉ, but the corporate governance was simply appalling. As someone who has been self-employed for 42 years, I know well about regulations and the laws of the land, which have been flouted flagrantly, especially in regard to the tax code and the Social Welfare Consolidation Act. Representatives of the National Union of Journalists, NUJ, appeared before the committee recently and even they argued that. There is a rotten culture and it is wrong. It is in breach of the law. I understand that Mr. O'Rourke says he is not running the day-to-day operations but is overseeing them as chair, but how does he intend to deal with the legacy? In his position as chair rather than CEO, how does he intend to deal with the culture that is there? We in the committee were told a €50 million fund has been put away in anticipation of a settlement with Revenue.

That is my understanding of what the figure was, but even if it were €5 million, none of us, including those of us who are self-employed, have the liberty to put aside money to settle with Revenue. It comes down on people like a ton of bricks, they are penalised with penalties and savage interest, and many people are put out of business if they get into that position. How does Mr. O'Rourke intend to deal with that situation?

On the shortcomings and instances where laws were not properly interpreted, those issues have been very well dealt with at the expert advisory committee, which has set out a detailed roadmap to make sure we deal with all those matters. Those things are all under way at the moment and detailed discussions are going on with the Department of Social Protection. Some of these areas are not straightforward. They are very complex areas, with differing views on interpreting the law. They are not black and white; there is some greyness there as well. We need to get it right. It looks as though mistakes were made in the past but we have to get it right and we are determined to do so.

Ms Cusack might wish to talk about the work we are doing at the moment to make sure those issues are corrected.

What does Ms Cusack mean? The Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 was clearly violated and the chair has just said RTÉ did not deal with it properly, but it is not a matter of dealing with it properly. If the laws were broken, and I believe they were badly broken, it is not a matter of dealing with it properly. RTÉ was operating outside the law. I am concerned about the chair's last comment, namely, that RTÉ did not deal with it properly. We do not have the liberty not to deal with it properly. The law is the law.

RTÉ is absolutely committed to upholding the law, and any breaches of the law that have occurred need to be rectified and dealt with. I have no qualms about that. It is absolutely the right thing to do to make sure we comply with the law. As I said, there are discussions with the Department of Social Protection because there are grey areas where the legal people reading the laws enacted by the Oireachtas have different interpretations of what those laws mean, so there are complex grey areas. Those are the areas on which we are in discussion with the Department of Social Protection, because we want to get it right and it wants to get it right. That will need a collaborative process, on which, as I understand it, Ms Cusack is working very well at the moment. We are determined to get them right. Any breaches of the law will be rectified. We do not want to break any laws and anywhere that has happened in the past will be dealt with.

I am very concerned about the language, with breaches of the law to be rectified. I do not have a choice if I break the law as an employer and nor does anybody else. I would not have an opportunity, nor would any other business, to deal with the Department of Social Protection around the law. The law is the law, and there was massive law-breaking.

The Department of Social Protection, as we know, has been carrying out an investigation into RTÉ over PRSI insurability and started that process in 2020. We have been engaging and co-operating with it in its investigation. The point I am making is that we have made and are making substantive progress with the Department. We have intensified our engagement with it and we now have weekly meetings. We have provided it with a lot of detailed information on people who have been providing services to RTÉ. The Deputy may recall that the previous time I appeared before the committee, I spoke about the number of contractors who were under investigation, totalling something like 688. Of that number, 363 were no longer providing services to RTÉ and the majority had not been providing services since 2020 or before that. A number were currently employees and a number were currently providing services. The Department of Social Protection is looking at those. We have provided detailed information on each category, including the extent of the engagement and the fees paid. The Department will look at that and review it in the context of the decisions it has made with regard to class A or class S. That review process is ongoing, but it is now moving at a pace.

It would need to be, given it is now four years on. After this meeting, I may need to go to a shop, a restaurant or somewhere else. Those kinds of businesses have to operate within the law. RTÉ was not operating within the law. It was committing a flagrant breach of the law and the management was complicit in it. We saw how all the yellow-pack workers were treated. Ms Cusack mentioned the number of workers, 363, down from 600 and something, who were summarily dismissed. RTÉ is dealing with them going back to 2019 and 2020 and it is still ongoing when we are halfway through 2024. No other company in the land has that kind of latitude.

I am disappointed in the attitude of the chair when he says RTÉ is in negotiations with Revenue. That does not apply. What kind of sacred cow is there in Montrose whereby RTÉ can continue to be above the law? We saw the disrespect the previous chair, Moya Doherty, and others had for female employees who were forced out, at a cost of €1 million-plus and an awful lot of money to defend in court the unfair dismissals, and that has been the culture there. It is now 2024 and it is still ongoing and has not been dealt with. I have no doubt the Minister will give the board another pile of money to allow the members to go on holidays. It is a rotten system. Nothing has been sorted out at RTÉ. It is going to get another big cash bailout and smaller groups, production teams, local radios and so on throughout the country are getting the crumbs. This has to stop. I am surprised it has not stopped-----

I was in finance at KPMG for 30 years. Every week, there were negotiations with Revenue on issues because the tax laws, which are written by the Oireachtas, are complicated and there are different interpretations. It is not a matter of black and white. Those negotiations go on in every commercial operation in Ireland, where people do their best to comply with the law but it is sometimes not clear and it takes time to negotiate these things.

Mr. O'Rourke was probably too long at high-level corporate finance. People like me and other, smaller businesses have to employ an accountant or a tax consultant. They might engage somewhat but get very short shrift and very little time. If they have committed an indiscretion, they get penalised savagely and get no mercy-----

This is what I am comparing with RTÉ. It is a sacred cow and it can employ KPMG and other big, powerful companies that, as Mr. O'Rourke said, negotiate for companies every day of the week, but the little man, na daoine beaga or na mná beaga in business, the backbone of this country, cannot get that.

They do not have that latitude.

I was involved with the Institute of Chartered Accountants and dealt with many practitioners servicing the needs of small businesses up and down this land and the same issues arise in all sizes of companies and for tax advisers in all sizes of companies. Where people have breached and gone outside the law, they are penalised and properly penalised. There are lots of areas where you need to interpret the law and make sure there is agreement between the Revenue and the company.

There are two brief questions, if you do not mind. One of Mr. O'Rourke's colleagues may answer on the figure I understood they had put away in anticipation of a settlement of Revenue. The second is directed at Mr. O'Rourke. What penalties has RTÉ incurred from Revenue, the Department of Social Protection or anywhere else at this stage with all that has gone on?

So RTÉ has none paid. That is my point. It is riding along and before the summer break it will get another big cash injection from the taxpayer. All of these are show investigations and nothing short of that. I called all the time for the fraud squad to be in there from the start. Fraud was committed - naked, basic fraud at a large degree. The new chair comes in here and I am astounded - but I am not astounded, when he comes from the big business he comes from.

I am not aware of that figure at all.

Can I make one point? We have adopted in RTÉ a policy of employment first since 2019. In the main, people come into RTÉ on employment contracts, whether fixed-term or ongoing. The contractors we have in place today are, in the main, contributors to sport across radio and television, sports pundits, etc. We are very conscious of how we engage people coming into the organisation and of the work going on at the moment with the Workplace Relations Commission, the Department of Social Protection and Revenue on the new code of practice, which we will adopt in full. There are a number in different circumstances but people providing services are in the main contributors, rather than people working five days per week or 365 days per year. That is not what is in place.

I thank the Chair and thank the witnesses for coming in. I particularly welcome the new chair, Mr. Terence O'Rourke, and congratulate him on his appointment. He has taken on a difficult job at a very difficult time and I wish him well in his endeavours because the whole country needs him, the board of RTÉ and the executives to do well and steer the station in the right direction and out of the crisis it is in. I have been here asking questions passionately for the past 12 months because I care deeply for RTÉ and want to see it thrive. When Mr. O'Rourke was approached about the job, was he concerned about the manner of the departure of the previous chair of RTÉ? Did he feel this particular position was best avoided?

Somebody had to do the job. There was a job to be done. I share the Deputy's passion for ensuring RTÉ is put right. It is an important service provided to the people of Ireland and needs to be done properly. Whatever happened happened. I was not there so I do not know what happened. We agreed early on with the Minister a protocol of communication. There is now an agreed protocol of things the Minister and I are in frequent contact about. It is very clear. We made sure at the beginning there would be clarity of communication.

Several times a week. I attend all the committee meetings in RTÉ, which he also attends. We are in frequent contact on issues around these reports, the statement of strategy and the annual report. There are lots of things happening in RTÉ that involve frequent contact between me and the director general.

I only have a certain amount of time and there are many areas to cover. There are a few I will home in on. Mr. O'Rourke might be aware from previous meetings that an area I have given attention to, researched and engaged with workers on is bogus self-employment. As the new chair, is Mr. O'Rourke expecting prosecution under the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 in relation to bogus self-employment activity at the station?

I know it is a very complex issue because I need to frequently ask Eimear what is the interpretation of this. There are many nuances in it. I am aware from my previous role as an auditor that it is not clear sometimes whether somebody is properly classified as a employee or contractor. It is a perennial issue and seems to be very complicated legally. We get different views from different legal people. I put a lot of faith into the work of a group of experts who were asked by the Minister to look at that whole area and give advice on what steps we should take to make sure we comply as best we can with the law and make up for anything that might have been done improperly in the past. My understanding is that work is well under way. It is an issue of concern to me that we get that right. We cannot be doing things improperly or wrongly. We have to follow best practice. Working with lawyers and with Eimear, my understanding is we are well on the road to making sure we have done all that.

Would Mr O'Rourke's concerns extend to ensuring that not only obligations under the law to State agencies such as Revenue and the Department of Social Protection be kosher, but that it is right and proper there should be fair and adequate compensation for workers disadvantaged through being misclassified as self-employed in the past?

We started this process in 2018. I joined RTÉ in 2017 and was told there was an issue with contractors. We began the process known as the Eversheds process in 2018, whereby we addressed a number of people and they were offered contracts of employment - 81 people, of whom 79 accepted. We subsequently went into a facilitated process with the trade union group and agreed payment to those people. That became a collective agreement. The majority of people accepted that.

We are going back down a rabbit hole again now. I have been here many times before and, as Ms Cusack well knows, that is only part of the story. There are legacy issues going much further back than 2018 that I am concerned about and that the workers who have been disenfranchised and disadvantaged are concerned about. These are the issues the chairman has an obligation to fully examine and make right. Is he fully briefed on the overall picture? There has been a spin coming from the HR department of RTÉ consistently since we started raising this here about Eversheds and how, effectively, the universe began at that particular point. Let us stop the smokescreen. We all know there is a lengthy legacy problem going back to the 1980s in relation to workers being misclassified and disadvantaged. Will the chair lead the way in getting that resolved for those workers?

Is Mr. O'Rourke willing to not be captured by executives like previous boards have been, to insist on fairness and to insist that we cut out the speak where Eversheds and 2018 are constantly being referred to as the starting point of this issue when we all know it is not and that it goes back much further than that?

As the new chair, it would be refreshing for Mr. O’Rourke to come in and stamp that out. It has been immediately happening again today from the person on his left. I cannot believe she has the gumption to come back in here again today and use the same language she was using the last time around. It is not good enough. We all know there are workers out there and their situations have been ignored systemically by the executives at RTÉ, including Ms Cusack. Is this going to change? We have heard an awful lot over the last 12 months about culture change. If this level of language is going to continue again here today, 12 months after the debacle first arose in regard to the payments scandal, I am going to leave this room today not convinced there is any change in culture. As the new chairman, is Mr. O’Rourke going to ensure that that culture will actually change through actions?

What I am saying is that RTÉ will do the right thing and the fairest thing. That is what we have to do. We have to balance the interests and the many different issues. We have limited resources to deal with legacy issues and all the rest. I will make sure that we engage fully with the trade union group, with legal advisers and with best practice in this area. I will make sure that happens.

I would appreciate that. It would be very helpful if, as one of the starting points, the speak of denial and the gaslighting that we are hearing from the executives would be stamped out and not tolerated any longer. It is insulting to us here, as a committee, and very disturbing to the workers who have been disadvantaged and distressed by this. Some of them have been very distressed about this for years and have been put to lengthy and costly legal proceedings, which is not fair or right. One of the tasks the chairman has ahead of him is to stamp that out because it is not acceptable. I will not put up with it any longer at this committee as we have heard it for far too long.

Does the chairman believe he has the necessary skill sets on the board to effectively do the job that the board needs to do in order to ensure we do not have the problems and mistakes that were made in the past? Effectively, I am asking him about auditing skills. Does he have the expertise of people who speak the language of auditors and who can go through the figures forensically and ensure we do not miss the things that were missed in the past?

I am a chartered accountant and have previously been chair of the audit committees of organisations like Hibernia REIT plc and The Irish Times. Noreen O’Kelly has joined the board. She is an experienced accountant and was the former company secretary of Independent News and Media, was on the board of ESB for ten years until she stepped down last year and was chairman of the audit committee of ESB for ten years. She is now chairing the audit committee. I attend all of the committees as well. I believe we have sufficient expertise.

Boards can always be strengthened. Since last June, there have been 16 members of the board. Half of the board are new in the last year, so we now have a good board and we will further strengthen it. We are looking at our skill sets. For example, I am very conscious of the fact we have nobody on the current board who has a good understanding of Irish language issues. I would like to get somebody else onto the board to deal with that as it is something that is missing at the moment.

There is the financial aspect but another thing that is important to our board is people with experience of large companies. RTÉ is a large company with €300 million in revenues. There were not enough people on our board who had experience of dealing with large companies and the kind of issues that arise in managing and overseeing large companies. We are better now. We have a few more people who have been involved in bigger companies but we probably need to strengthen that further.

As the Deputy knows, the code of practice for the governance of State bodies suggests there would be an annual review of the evaluation of boards. I did not think it appropriate to do it immediately I came in the door because the board was changing so I said we would do it later this year. It is best practice to do an external evaluation once every three years and I think we might do an external evaluation this year. In the years between external evaluations, you do a questionnaire-based thing, which I have seen work very well in Enterprise Ireland and the ESB.

Something went wrong there because they were coming in at over 80%. I would say that is far higher than most other people might have given the board in terms of performance. I know Mr. O’Rourke has experience of other boards in Enterprise Ireland, the ESB and so on. Is it a fruitless exercise? Is it pointless?

No, it is a very useful exercise. If board members are uncomfortable with anything, it is their time to say that something is not going right. In both ESB and Enterprise Ireland, we learned lessons from those self-evaluation questionnaires. We highlighted issues that needed to be dealt with and where we needed to make changes in procedures, and they have been implemented successfully. I think it is an effective way. External evaluation is a very good way as well, and our next evaluation will be an external evaluation.

An aithníonn tú an tábhacht a bhaineann le Raidió na Gaeltachta do shaol agus do chultúr na Gaeltachta agus an mbeidh béim aige ar Raidió na Gaeltachta amach anseo? Does Mr. O’Rourke acknowledge the importance of Raidió na Gaeltachta on the life and culture of the Gaeltacht and will there be an emphasis by him on Raidió na Gaeltachta into the future? In particular, will it be adequately staffed in all of the stations throughout the Gaeltacht. I know there were numerous retirements in recent years where people were not replaced. There is a feeling within Gaeltacht communities that their local stations are under-resourced although they provide an enormously important service for their communities. Does Mr. O’Rourke acknowledge that? Is this going to be one of his priority areas?

The Future of Media Commission called out the need to make sure we adequately resource the Irish language broadcasting that the public service in RTÉ provides, and I am very aware of that. I last met the Deputy at the Fexco opening when I was there for Enterprise Ireland. I remember meeting one of the entrepreneurs from Tralee who was a Gaeilgeoir, or an Irish speaker. I was asking her about Raidió na Gaeltachta and she told me how important it was for the Gaeltacht communities to link up the communities of Donegal, Galway, Kerry, Cork and Waterford. It is a unique service that Raidió na Gaeltachta supplies and I really got a good understanding of that there. Whatever resources Raidió na Gaeltachta needs to have to continue to do its work, I will be very supportive of that.

I welcome Deputy Ring as he is new to the committee and is replacing the new Minister of State, Deputy Alan Dillon. I know Deputy Ring has been thrown in at the deep end as this is his first meeting. I thank him for joining us today. If he has any questions, comments or observations, he can make them now.

I have a few comments. I thank the Chair for her kind comments at what is my first meeting. I am not as well equipped as the other members because I am on three other committees and the commission, so it is hard to keep everything going. However, I am glad to get the opportunity to say a few words.

I welcome the new chairperson and the board members. They have a difficult job. It is a job that I hope they do well because what went on for the last 12 months was a national disgrace. As somebody who has been 30 years in the Dáil, I have listened to political commentators from RTÉ for 30 years. By God, they kept politicians to a very high standard and were the cause of many senior Ministers having to resign over minor and trivial things that were proven to be wrong afterwards, but they forced them out of government. It is a shame they did not use the same standards themselves. When we found out what actually happened, we had to force some people to resign and some people got big packages. What went on with the financial stuff with Ryan Tubridy and everything else was a total disgrace and the people of Ireland were disgusted. I want to say that at the beginning.

To be fair to RTÉ, I have always supported it. In the 30 years that I have been in the Dáil, it has always done very well on politics, sport and current affairs and its programming has been very good. With regard to the licence fee that is being paid, people do not have any problem paying for Sky but they have a big problem paying for RTÉ. I have always been a supporter of RTÉ and believe we need a strong RTÉ. However, what went on was a disgrace.

I have said for a long time that we have too many full-time chairpersons who are on six or seven boards. The public service appoints them and if it is not a county manager, it is an assistant secretary or somebody from the public service. We did not have enough people with business experience like Mr. O’Rourke.

I am looking at his CV. He certainly knows how the world of business works. RTÉ has to be run as a business, not like a charity as it was for the past number of years. That is what it was like. People put their hand into the bowl and took whatever they wanted to take or whatever they could get. What was going on was terrible. The general public are disgusted. At the same time, RTÉ needs to build up confidence again.

We need RTÉ for coverage of sport, politics and current affairs. We need a fair and balanced RTÉ and it is important that it rebuilds its relationship with the public. I am not someone who tells people not to pay the TV licence. It is great value for what we get and people should pay it, but RTÉ now needs to show the general public that what was going on there is over. We do not want a further drip-feed of information.

As I said, I was not a member of the committee and had not followed matters as closely as other Deputies. They did a tremendous job and worked very hard to bring out the evidence that needed to be brought out. I wish Mr. O'Rourke well in his appointment and I hope he will do what has to be done.

Some of the general workers in RTÉ are disgusted and disappointed by what was going on. They are honourable and decent people who gave their lives to and loved RTÉ. They gave their full career to it. I am glad Mr. O'Rourke is now dealing with some of the workers who were not contracted on a full-time pensionable basis. That should be dealt with quickly.

I will not say much more today. I will read into what is happening; this is my first meeting. I wish Mr. O'Rourke well. He has a difficult job and I hope he does it right. I want RTÉ to rebuild the confidence of the general public because that is vital. We need a strong RTÉ. I have great respect for some of the people in RTÉ, but there are others who I would not employ. Some are very good and have done a fantastic job, and they need to be supported. The general staff need to be supported, to know what is happening for the future and that their jobs are secure and what is going on in RTÉ. Everybody needs to know what is going on and that everything is above board.

I thank the Deputy. At the weekend, I was delighted to visit the election count centre in RTÉ, which is a fantastic hive of activity. There were 20 people working there 24-7, doing a great service for the Irish people in monitoring the election, giving the results and all of the rest. There was an energy and buzz in the place. I got the impression from the workers and staff that they were very proud to provide the service and be part of making sure the Irish people got the right information promptly and accurately. It was great to see the team in action.

On staff engagement, the director general has met staff every month in a town hall meeting where he addresses all employees and takes questions from people in person or online. A couple of hundred people attend these meetings. I was involved in one such meeting a couple of months ago. It is great to see and I have received good feedback from staff who have said they are being told month by month what the issues are and are able to feed their concerns into the director general. Things are improving. Not everything has been fixed, but there is a good atmosphere there at the moment. The Deputy is correct; people are disgusted and there was a lot of disappointment about what happened last year. As a board, we are determined to fix those things. I thank the Deputy for his good wishes and interest.

I mean it because Mr. O'Rourke is right in what he says. The coverage of the past few days has been fantastic. RTÉ covered the European count. The European Championship is starting next week and RTÉ will cover that. People pay large subscriptions for Sky to watch sports and then have to pay a subscription for everything else. We get good value from RTÉ and expect everything to be run very well.

As I said, there are some great people in the organisation and they need to be supported and know they are respected. They do a good job, but what went on in RTÉ was a disgrace. Many more people should have been held accountable. Mr. O'Rourke is new and has a very difficult job to do. He is the watchdog for the general public and we are depending on him to make sure the general public never sees what happened in RTÉ happen again. In spite of what people say, I encourage people to pay their TV licence because, to be fair, they get good value for the money they pay for it. I am not saying there should be an increase, but people should pay it now.

I am very glad to have the opportunity to speak. I am speaking on a slightly different issue which affects about 400,000 RTÉ viewers in the country. I refer to accessibility and inclusion in programming. We have subtitling, audio description and Irish sign language, ISL, which are important. RTÉ is doing well on subtitling and is surpassing many targets. Audio description on RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and RTÉ Junior had a target of just 10% this year. RTÉ is achieving and surpassing that target. Only 5% of programming has ISL and only 10% of the programming has audio description.

Given the reduction in the number of staff in RTÉ, I would like to ask about access to vision. Does RTÉ have any plans for live Irish ISL on RTÉ news or current affairs? Does it have any plans to expand on the requirements and targets of Coimisiún na Meán to ensure RTÉ upholds and surpasses what we want? I refer to the UNCRPD and the rights of people with disabilities to have access to news and current affairs from the public broadcaster, as I do.

Is RTÉ open to having internships in radio and TV production for disabled people? We want RTÉ to improve, change and add to its diversity. It is a pity that there has been a reduction in the number of staff in RTÉ's access division when we want to increase inclusivity and improve what is offered by RTÉ for all citizens.

On the detail of the Senator's question, that is something we can provide a little more information on beyond the scope of what I will be able to tell her. RTÉ's equality, diversity and inclusion policy informs a whole heap of programming and other decisions across the operation. At the same time, we are also very aware of the public sector duty and just how important that is for the implementation of the UNCRPD. It is something of which we are very aware. On the detail of the Senator's question on whether we have ambitions to exceed what has been set out in legislation, we will have to come back to her on that.

On diversity and inclusion, this area has been under-resourced. We have been very successful in some areas and there is a lot of work to do in other areas. One of the recommendations from the expert advisory committee was that that needs to be bumped up in terms of visibility and being more front and centre. That is something we are going to take very seriously.

Over the past three years, we have introduced an internship programme which is designed to bring people from all walks of life into the organisation. That has proven to be very successful. It includes people from diverse backgrounds and all that that entails. There are five interns from last year working on sport. We are trying to find ways to provide opportunities for others to commit the organisation in an environment where we have low employee turnover. We have to try to create a pathway and pipeline for the future and this is one area where we can do this. We bring in, I understand, 14 interns every year. A number are in Raidió na Gaeltachta or the Gaeltacht. We are working on it, but the Senator's point is spot on. There is a lot more that can be done and it will be, given that priority and focus.

The election coverage was wonderful, and I was hooked on it all weekend. However, it would be wonderful to have ISL. It would be wonderful to have someone standing there so everyone was able to hear the news. It would be a fantastic thing for RTÉ to look at for the next general election. People who cannot hear should be able to get the news. It would be a wonderful and inclusive addition.

While I agree there is a lot done but more to do, to use that phrase, we do not have a full house today. Some of what I may call the occasional members of our committee and some visitors have not attended. Maybe it is a sign that there is a recognition that things are starting to happen in RTÉ. I may not agree with all of Kevin Bakhurst's approach, but I think in terms of the general approach of the organisation, and what I am hearing today, notwithstanding some of Deputy Griffin's concerns, which I share, things have been turning around.

I have a question for Mr. O'Rourke, and it follows on from sketching out that vision in the digital age and RTÉ moving more to a publisher-broadcaster model and commissioning more from the independent sector. He said it is about quality Irish content. How can we ensure that continues to be the case? At the end of his term as Chair, what sort of organisation does he envisage will be in place, and where does he see the broadcasting landscape in four or five years' time?

It will be more digital and a lot more people will be consuming digital. We are still planning for broadcasting for the next ten or 20 years. Like printed newspapers that will continue. We will need to provide a broadcasting service, but we also need to be conscious that more people will be going digital first in how they access RTÉ's output. Our focus is on making sure we get Irish content like news, sport, drama, current affairs and nationwide programming the best we can make them. Ms Howard may want to talk about the programming ambitions and if we commission more. At the moment there is a good sector out there, but it needs to be beefed up. Hopefully, our ability to commission more work will help it to be beefed up.

In the new direction document last November that ambition to increase outside production and commissioning by 50% was set up. It is a big ambition, and a good deal of the strategic direction will be around driving that change. It should achieve a number of things, including a more vibrant independent sector, but also more diverse output made all across Ireland by lots of different kinds of people. That also speaks to the question asked earlier by the Senator's colleague. That plurality should be evident on our screens, whatever kind of screen you are watching, to go back to Mr. O'Rourke's point. The increase in Irish drama specifically is going to happen more quickly. We have an ambition to increase that to 60 hours per year in 2026. I hope within the five-year period the Senator has asked our chair about that we would have a number of key milestones to hit along the way and that are about the strategic delivery of that increased investment in the independent sector as well as retaining some work in-house.

It is welcome and there is a lot of quality drama being produced in Ireland. RTÉ has been commissioning some of that and it is important. Ms Howard may be aware that this committee is also looking at the issue of how we support regional film and television content production. That is an issue we have been looking at. I do not know if Ms Howard has any perspective on that. It is a slight aside from the issue we are covering generally.

From a board perspective, our role is about oversight rather than coming up with the policies, or the editorial or creative approach to deliver that. However, we take a serious view of our oversight role. The principles we would hope to see employed by our colleagues in management are in and around increased investment in a range of areas and the Senator will see that regionalisation is a key part of how RTÉ proposes to initiate that, whether that is moving more activity to Cork or taking a renewed look at Galway and Limerick.

The strategy said that we would start to rebalance our production from Dublin to an expanded production centre in Cork, and we aim to increase production in Limerick and Galway. That is already committed to on our end. Further details of that will be in our strategy. We are clear about the need to expand the regional impact of our spending and production and that is part of the plans we have now.

I will also tie in something else in the model on the news side. Apart from regionally in Ireland, there are global inputs and there has been some discussion. During the course of last year there was the impact of closing the London office. I am aware during this election year of having Irish voices reporting on it. It has been a pleasure to hear Yvonne Murray's reporting from the UN on some global issues. Her reports on Asia have been particularly informative.

It is on the agenda. That is all I can say. When I talk to our head of technology, he says it is an issue built into all the things they are looking at, like apps, how we use our archives and all the rest. The impact of artificial intelligence in anything we do now has to be factored in and is being factored in as I understand it. We do not yet have an artificial intelligence policy or strategy but that is part of something being developed and will be available over the coming year.

I have a final question. Mr. O'Rourke has obviously come in and is new. We engaged quite a lot with the previous chair, and I felt she made a major contribution during the time. She came in and suddenly lots of things were discovered and were landing on her desk. There is nothing else. Mr. O'Rourke has not discovered anything.

I think some of Deputy Mattie McGrath's earlier comments were unfair. There were a number of independent reports commissioned by the Minister, and I was happy about how thorough they were and the wide range of recommendations. I think the challenge from my perspective is basically about how quickly you get to implement all of those recommendations. It is critical, in particular on the HR side, that there is negotiation with the TUG. I want to recognise the work being done by the board, the director-general and the entire RTÉ organisation to try to address this. We will not always be happy that there is progress.

That is the Senator's job. Journalists in RTÉ will hold people to account, so the committee should hold us to account as well. I appreciate that. In the review of HR, fees and pay in RTÉ we met the expert advisory group. One of the things it said to us was not to rush the implementation of this as it will take time. There are deeply embedded cultural issues it has to deal with. Their advice was to do it thoroughly, properly, take our time and not rush the fences too quickly. I appreciate there will be an impatience from people to get everything done, but it is important we get it done properly and thoroughly. That is what we will be doing.

I think the culture is changing. There is a lot of work done and more to go as I think the Senator said. We recognise that what happened last year cannot happen again and we will do whatever we need to do. There are even things like the town hall meetings.

There have been more town hall meetings in the past four months than there were in the past five years or something. It is that kind of thing. It is that engagement with staff and that openness between the board and management. We get all the interim leadership team, ILT, minutes. The ILT meets with the board frequently. All the board committees report fully to the board. That culture of openness, transparency and making sure that nothing is hidden is very much alive now, and I believe that was not the way in the past. People on the board longer than me said that there are changes afoot. Already, those things are happening. Culture comes from the top as well, so the way that Kevin Bakhurst and his team behave will be an important way of getting the messages down and making sure that is cascaded on through the organisation. I am happy it is changing. It will not change overnight. It is a job of work to be done but we are on the right road.

Regarding HR, an awful lot of what happened last year and the scandals that arose were HR department and finance department-related scandals. In that regard, I wish to ask the chairman about the HR department. Does he believe, in light of everything we saw over the past 12 months related to severance packages and the Tubridy pay debacle, that the current leadership positions within the HR department are tenable?

That is a good question. There are many changes afoot. One of the things that is called out in both the governance report as well as the report on HR is the underfunding of RTÉ. RTÉ did not have enough resources in place to deal with the issues. For example, our HR systems were wholly inadequate. We are trying to research some of the issues we have been talking about and it is has been difficult to get information because it has been a manual and a poor system. Therefore, we have already commissioned a whole new HR system. We have agreed to augment and add more people in a time when we have to try to be very prudent about resources. We have agreed to strengthen the HR team. I am talking about this with the director general, Kevin Bakhurst. He is happy that he has the resource and management in place to execute the improvements in the HR side that we need to do, so that is-----

It was the management and the board. The major things that were wrong were the communications and the top-level issues. I do not blame the HR department because they were under-resourced, working very hard and they made mistakes. However, that was mostly, as I said, because lack of funding RTÉ had and they were focusing the money wrongly on content, but that was-----

We know from previous hearings here that key players within the HR department were complicit in many of the activities that occurred. From the board’s point of view, is it concerning that these changes have not taken place? We saw quite a serious change of personnel in certain areas, for example, in finance, but that has not happened in HR. In my opinion, there is something very wrong in the HR department. In my dealings with workers and the way they have been treated, particularly when they try to highlight their treatment, there is a serious problem. I take this opportunity to highlight my concern as a member of the Oireachtas committee to Mr. O’Rourke as chair of the board. I think that is one of the first places he needs to start looking. I honestly feel there is need for radical further scrutiny by the board in terms of the activities there. I certainly would not have confidence in that area going forward.

I hear what the Deputy is saying. The Government sent in an expert advisory committee that investigated and looked into all aspects of HR operations across a multitude of areas. We co-operated fully. Its report is thorough. It pointed out things that need to change and how things need to be structured going forward, and all of those have been embraced. It had a good and strong look at HR, contractors, how things are engaged and so on. I am happy with the report. It is solid and detailed. The 26 recommendations in it will be implemented in full.

I think public confidence is critical. We talk about the massive haemorrhaging of revenue, for example, from the TV licence, that arose from a loss of public confidence, particularly in the day-to-day running of the organisation. That is something that I think will require key change of personnel at the station. I do not think that confidence will be fully recovered until the people who were complicit in the activity at the time are replaced. That is my view and I feel many members of the public will share that view.

The board should be challenging more. Regarding the board challenging management, have there been, for example, any proposals from management in respect of pay-related or severance-related activity in the chair’s time that the board has refused? We know there were approvals in the past that certainly would have raised a lot of eyebrows. Have there been any proposals of late that the board has had to refuse?

They are very modest, to be honest. I am talking about minor things, to be honest. There was no substantial issue. As set out in the New Direction document the director general issued last year, there was a very conscious emphasis on reducing pay across the organisation for the top earners. In addition, the recommendations of the review group talk about pay bands, so that is going on. Rather than saying that the management has done anything wrong, I am mainly pointing out that the proposals got challenged by the board of directors. They asked questions and for clarification on things. It was not that we refused things or that management had done anything wrong but we wanted more detail, challenged and got more answers in the end.

Okay, but we are not seeing proposals come before the board for severance packages of €300,000 or €400,000 of late, are we? Is that still happening? There were audible gasps in here when Ms Cusack revealed she had signed off on a €450,000 exit package a number of months ago. Are those kinds of packages coming before the board all the time?

If the Deputy looks, the director general has a very good interview in The Currency magazine today. He talked about when people are leaving an organisation, the employment legislation in this country is very strong and gives lots of protection to employees. There are two ways – you can have very extensive and costly litigation or you can do agreements with people that probably end up in the Workplace Relations Commission. Those agreements typically are legally required to be confidential and all the rest. That is a process that we need to do when people exit the organisation. We will comply with the law. The policy of RTÉ is to make sure that we have as open and transparent a process as possible. However, we have to deal with the law, and the requires the Workplace Relations Commission to-----

Again, I will refer the Deputy to the comments of the director general last year in this committee and recently in his interview last week. When you are dealing with senior people who had been well paid, the employment legislation requires they be dealt with equitably in their regard.

That is what the law requires, so we will do what the law requires to get the best result for RTÉ. Not everybody stays in the organisation forever and when we have people leaving, we have to deal with them fairly and legally. We will do that to the best of our ability in a way that minimises the cost to RTÉ.

That might require further follow-up from the committee but it is clear that I am not going to get any more information today. I want to say for the record that it concerns me and sits uncomfortably with me that we may still be in that territory. I am cognisant of all of our legal obligations at every turn but it will not sit well with the public, I am sure, that we may still-----

-----be in that territory. Where and when is it going to stop? It is going on for far too long now.

I was going to ask a question about the recent report from Screen Producers Ireland on independent producers and a changing RTÉ. Has Mr. O'Rourke seen that report? Is he familiar with it?

As I understand it, Screen Producers Ireland very much welcomed the publication of this new direction proposal in the autumn of last year. As the Chairman has said, the new strategy will set out in much more detail what that will actually look like. One of the key alignments, as I see it, is in that increase in RTÉ's investment in the sector which is important for the actual production and delivery of the work but also for the larger scale result, which will be the growth and development of the sector. As I understand it, Screen Producers Ireland is very much in favour of that approach. I understand that one of the key conclusions of the report is that Screen Producers Ireland would like to see that figure increased even more. It remains to be seen how much a reduction in in-house production of certain work correlates with an increase in external work over the next five years. The detail of that has yet to be seen.

Maybe my next question is more appropriate for the board rather than Ms Howard. My comments are in no way a reflection of our guest or geared towards her. I am looking back at the historical situation, prior to the appointment of Ms Howard. Is the board satisfied that the commissioning process is fair? Is it satisfied that the necessary checks and balances are in place to ensure the integrity of the process? Obviously it is a very lucrative scenario when a pitch is accepted and a commission is given the green light. Is the board satisfied that the process is fair? What measures are taken by the board to ensure that the process is fair? Is the chairman of the board aware of any instances in the past where there may not have been integrity in the process?

I am not personally aware of anything. Every year we produce an independent production unit report. Under the Broadcasting Act RTÉ must spend at least €40 million on independent productions and that is an indexed fee. The report for 2023 which is being finalised at the moment will show that we spent the minimum amount and a bit more. The report also makes sure that the accounting for that is done properly and that the money that was set aside in a separate account has been disbursed properly and that there are receipts for that. It is an audited report and the auditors confirm that all of that has been done. I have not seen anything wrong in that.

Large commissions costing over €1 million, which includes some of our drama productions, come with detail to the board and the programming committee. We see those large commissions, we interrogate and challenge how they were done and whether they were done fairly. We get a good feeling from that. I have only seen two or three since I came into the role but they looked like they had been done rigorously and run properly.

We get a description of the process and how they went about commissioning the work. I am told that when RTÉ wants to commission a report, there could be up to four or five people who want to do it. It is a very keenly contested area. It has got to be done properly and fairly. As with any competition, when people do not win they might think that they have been unfairly treated but as far as I can tell as chairman of the board, our procedures are fair and robust. I am not sure that everything is done right 100% of the time but broadly, as far as I am concerned, what I am hearing in that regard is positive. I have no particular concerns and as I said, the auditors look at it as well.

Yes. We need to get enough information to do our work but not be snowed under by reports. We had the debate and while there were differing views, the board agreed that we need a fund of information for all of the obvious reasons. We are getting very thorough information at the moment. We get detailed minutes of the leadership team meetings every week. We get the minutes of all of the committee meetings and the reports are shared with all of the board members. At every board meeting we get a report of any committee meetings that have happened in the interim. I get a great sense of openness and transparency at the moment and have not found anything hidden or not being dealt with properly in my time as chair.

There is no obfuscation. As I have said, we have some new board members as well and they are coming in and asking lots of questions because they do not know the background. People like Noreen O'Kerry, Terri Moloney, Shirley Bradshaw and others are coming in and asking questions and I feel they are getting full and appropriate answers to all of the questions they are asking.

My reading when this all began was that the executive board members had a very siloed way of operating. They almost had themselves elevated above the board members. It was very clear to us that the board members were deceived in a lot of cases. They certainly were not being given information and a lot of that was intentional. That is my reading of it, based on the hearings we had. How have you set about ensuring that is no longer the case? You say that your direct contact is with Kevin Backhurst as director general but there is an executive team which has leadership in various roles, all of which are very important to the success of RTÉ. How have you nurtured a better relationship with those on the executive board and ensured that they have an understanding that they are responsible to the board? How have you ensured that the hierarchy that existed and the disrespect for the board itself has been wiped out?

The director general has a big part to play in that. He has to lead the team and make sure they understand that they are accountable to the board and that is very clear in my interactions with the director general. On lots of occasions, even in the two or three months that we have held board meetings, we have had a lot of the leadership team in to discuss various projects. This includes technical projects, new programmes, HR projects and so on. The board has seen the leadership team come in, present their case, be accountable, answer questions and take on challenges from board members. It is very clear and the leadership team have been very supportive. They appreciate the board's interest in their work and the board's challenges. I get no sense of resistance from the leadership team when questions are asked.

Thank you. My next question is for you, Ms Howard. Obviously, you were at some of our hearings when all of this started.

Mr. O'Rourke has expressed his view. I appreciate that Ms Howard has been a board member through the last phase of RTÉ, which had a non-relationship. As I mentioned, there was almost an effort to not give the information to disable the board from doing the job for which its members were appointed. Can Ms Howard speak about how environment has changed?

Yes. When we were last here and the Chairman asked about this matter, I wanted to be clear that I started at the same time as the previous chair, Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh. Therefore, I had no experience of the previous chair to her. All of my experience has been under this chair and Ms Ní Raghallaigh. I spent six months-----

I want to be accurate about that. There was a change of DG in that time, as we all know. Dee finished up in June and Kevin came on board slightly later.

In my time there, it was very clear that processes were starting to change. The real implementation of those changes started to become extremely evident when Mr. Kevin Bakhurst was appointed, and new systems, new communication styles and new types of interactions started to be more visible. One of the things, which I think I mentioned before, has been the introduction of a written director general report to the board. Mr. O'Rourke has mentioned the supply of interim leadership team minutes to the board. I am using those as examples of the kind of information that is now taken as completely standard, as one would expect, which had not been the case before.

It is nice to have Mr. Shortt here and I again congratulate him on being appointed to his new role. When he came in here at the very beginning, when the crisis emerged, he struck me as being very angry and he appeared to be somebody who definitely and absolutely felt deceived by the carry-on at an executive level, as opposed to at a board level. Does his new role mean he is no longer a member of the board?

Can he speak about the new working relationship, and how we must depend on what we hear at committee hearings that there is transparency, and that there is a clear understanding, at an executive level, that they are accountable to the board and that they are giving the information to the board to enable the board to do its work?

Part of my newish job is that I am in a position to make sure that the board gets to hear everything it needs to hear and that the information does flow from the executive and leadership team to the board. I obviously am going to ensure that happens. I would like to think that my time on the board has enabled me to understand what is required. I echo what the Chair and Ms Howard have said. It is very clear now that there are processes in place. We have mentioned the fact that there is a written report from the DG at every board meeting and the members also get to see the ILT minutes. I also attend the ILT. Strictly speaking, I am not a member of the ILT but I do attend their meetings. I am there to ensure that everything that happens at the ILT meetings is accurately reflected in their minutes, and that anything which needs to be brought to the attention of the chair and the board is brought to the attention of the chair and the board. That is a responsibility that I take very seriously.

No. We are very clear that we have a job to do. We are very focused on doing that job. The reports have been an excellent way of giving us a roadmap ahead. To be fair, for a lot of the things the reports have come with or highlighted, Kevin Bakhurst and his team are already implementing many of them because there are pretty obvious shortcomings, as members saw earlier, which need to be addressed. That complete package is set out in the report. We will work very hard on those.

Our strategy is very important. Whatever the issues in RTÉ over the last year, RTÉ has bigger issues in terms of transforming it to be fit public service media for the next decade and next years ahead, which is completely different from the RTÉ of 20 years ago. It is a process of transformation. Montrose is going to be changed. There will be different production facilities. There will be much more outsourcing and much more digital. It is going to be a changed world. We have got a huge job to do, and to govern it properly and financially control it well. The biggest issue I have is to fulfil the remit that the Oireachtas has asked RTÉ to do. We have got a big job to do. We have a big ambitious job to do as best we can. We have got to have the right funding in place and we have got to govern it properly. They are the things that we are focused on, as a board.

As there are no further questions, that concludes our business with our guests. I thank all our guests for their attendance. We appreciate their willingness to share their thoughts and experience. Again, I wish Mr. O'Rourke the very best of luck in his new and important role. The country depends on him in terms of our public broadcaster because we want to see it grow and have a very healthy and sustainable future. I know funding is a critical part of all that and there is an onus on the Government to make those decisions, whatever they may be. In the meantime, we depend on the chair.

Great and thank you very much.

As Standing Orders provide, this committee has the power to require the chairperson designate of a body or agency, under the aegis of its line Department, to attend before the committee to discuss his or her strategic priorities for the role. Today's meeting will be considered to have discharged that requirement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

That concludes our business. Gabhaim buíochas le gach duine. I propose that the committee go into private session and I ask members to bear with us as our guests leave.