Wikidata:Properties for deletion/P2580

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Delete. Only one non-COI, non-sock editor has argued to retain this property. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:41, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P2580 (P2580): (delete | history | links | entity usage | logs)

The IDs used for this property are not stable. Some IDs consist of names, others of name+date, VIAF or GND. They are changing regularly. Example:

• Oskar Karl Joseph Lieven (Q63226776), created by User:Walter v. O.
  • BBLD ID: Lieven-Oskar-Karl-Joseph-1852-1912
    • reference URL (P854) https://bbld.de/Lieven-Oskar-Karl-Joseph-1852-1912
    • retrieved (P813) 19. April 2019
    • Result: "Die angeforderte Seite ist nicht vorhanden."

All three formatter URL (P1630) are marked as "link death". The BBLD user is blocked but still active (using sock puppets and different IPs) and produced a lot of confusion on Wikidata and German Wikipedia (de:Vorlage Diskussion:BBLD). Imho this property should be deleted. Although the BBLD may be useful the IDs imported to Wikidata are useless. —Kolja21 (talk) 14:09, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Probably other sock puppet: User:Juliuseberhard. --Kolja21 (talk) 02:13, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

•  Delete until IDs aren't persistent. Nomen ad hoc (talk) 18:17, 2 September 2019 (UTC).[reply]
• If this was just another property for an online version of an old encyclopedia (like various others we have), there wouldn't be a reason to delete it. Unfortunately, there are several problems surrounding this particular site. One is the lack of stability of the site/IDs, another is the user/person behind it. The slugs/IDs used by the sites are not consistent and prone to change at any given moment, with no persistent ID or redirects from old values available. The other problem is the person who has been working on adding these IDs. Who AFAIK has been globally banned from all Wikimedida projects and still continues editing via IPs and sock puppets. It also seems this user is the person (or one of the persons) maintaining the website in question - so it would seem he's the one who keeps changing the entries' slugs/"IDs" himself and causing the problems on Wikidata when editors here try to come up with solutions to these changes. And has even been posting rants about Wikidata and Wikidata/Wikipedia users on that website. Overall, while the property might have some - albeit small - value, I have my doubts that all the constant changes, arguments, rants, blocks of IPs and sock puppets, etc. behind the scenes on Wikidata and Wikipedia are worth the hassle of keeping it around. --Kam Solusar (talk) 17:44, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• @Edgars2007: who proposed the property in good faith. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• New edits by IP 78.54.232.211. Example:

  Reginald Gruehn (Q2137976) (1929-2002)

  P2580 (P2580): Gruehn-Reginald-1901-1991

  IP added: GND ID (P227): GND 119712716X with source BBLD: https://bbld.de/GND119712716X

  --Kolja21 (talk) 21:57, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

•  Delete Vandalism targets. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:56, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
•  Keep stay real adress on https://bbld.de/ --Arachn0 (talk) 11:53, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
•  Keep IDs are being improved now. --Mzngan (talk) 09:57, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only 3 edits. Most likely sock puppet. --Kolja21 (talk) 05:33, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
•  Keep since used by several Wikipedias to generate external links, values should be fixed, vandalism undone. Michael FV (talk) 03:20, 9 January 2020 (UTC) / One day user --Kolja21 (talk) 05:33, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  @Michael FV: "used by several Wikipedias" isn't a proper keep reason, please consider other good reasons, thx. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:32, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment "Mzngan" and "Michael FV" seems to be sock puppets of the global banned user. BTW one more example of BBLD IDs:
  • Heinricus Meurch (Q55195758) = Meurch-Heinricus-um-1699 [1]
  • Heinricus Meurch (Q55195758) = Meyendorff-Christoph-Gustav-Alexander-Frh.-v.-1796-1865 [2]
  • Heinricus Meurch (Q55195758) = GND1052457312 [3]
  • Heinricus Meurch (Q64690920) = Meurch-Heinricus-1676-1710 [4]

Imho both items can be merged. See also Property talk:P227/Duplicates with more items created because of constantly changing BBLD IDs (using different spellings, ISNI, VIAF now GND). --Kolja21 (talk) 00:49, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kolja21: m:Steward_requests/Checkuser/2020-02#Tobias_Conradi_(or_影武者?)@wikidata tells me  unlikely. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:58, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

•  Keep. The central maintenance of the BBLD IDs in Wikidata is easier than maintenance in individual Wikipedias, deleting the property would increase the workload for Wikipedia editors in the field of Baltic Germans.

The BBLD IDs are used for creating references in

1. Wikidata, where it is often the only reference apart from VIAF (P214) and the GND (P227) - for the items in question the VIAF record is frequently based on the GND record and the GND record on the BBLD record
2. Wikipedias // Google evidence
3. the GND (authority file, hosted by the German National Library) // Google evidence
4. publicly financed projects like the Deutsche Biographie, a major biographical publication // Google evidence
5. privately owned projects like Geni.com, which is also used in Wikidata (d:Property:P2600) // Google evidence.

The BBLD is a continuation of the DBBL (Deutschbaltisches biographisches Lexikon 1710-1960) which is frequently cited in the NDB for items about Baltic Germans. Both works are cited in scientific publications.

If IDs have been deprecated they should be either marked as such - the ("list of Wikidata reasons for deprecation") could indicate that marking values as deprecated is possible in Wikidata - or if no verifiable source is found they should be deleted.

David Feest, spokesperson of the Baltic Historical Commission for the BBLD and a reader of Wikipedia. Davidfeest (talk) 07:52, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

•  Delete It's unstable, also the only "users" are LTA, do we really need LTA's contributions? --117.136.54.109 23:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
•  Comment FYI: IP 77.13.231.221 has restored the outdated BBLD IDs deleted by User:Magnus Manske. --Kolja21 (talk) 19:59, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
•  Delete Only used by LTAs. --111.32.68.231 02:40, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
•  Question LTA means what? "Less than average", "Love to all"? The problem former vs new scheme(s) and unstable IDs has not been resolved. --Kolja21 (talk) 03:17, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Kolja21 Long term abuse (persistent vandal, usually interwiki) —Eihel (talk) 06:16, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Kolja21: I guess what 111.* and 117.* said is Wikipedia:Long-term abuse (Q10854626)? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:32, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Liuxinyu970226 Kolja21 = German reader and LTA = English term. —Eihel (talk) 06:21, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Eihel: Got it, Template:Thankyou. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 06:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Template:沒問題 —Eihel (talk) 07:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment Biased reasoning: we don't delete a property for LTA, we eject the vandals. —Eihel (talk) 07:29, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

•  Info The BBLD user was back and made a mass deletion of Erik Amburger database ID (P6878), see Property talk:P227#backlog of 30/6/2021 import: The new BBLD imports. --Kolja21 (talk) 00:00, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

•  Comment I would like to make clear that whoever the said "BBLD user" is, he is neither working for the Baltic Historical Commission, nor is he in any way involved in the BBLD project of the commission. David Feest, board member of the Baltic Historical Commission Davidfeest (talk) 08:25, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Davidfeest: Danke für die Rückmeldung. Parallel zu den Edits des sogenannten "BBLD user" werden GNDs mit dem Bibliothekssigel DE-2813 angelegt. Es kann sich daher nicht einfach um einen externen "Fan" handeln. Letzten Monat hat er bis zu drei Sockenpuppen pro Tag angelegt, siehe de:Benutzer Diskussion:WahrheitFuerAlle. Der Wartungsaufwand, den er in Wikipedia und Wikidata verursacht, ist enorm. @Emu: FYI. --Kolja21 (talk) 05:10, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• i have posted to Wikidata:Bot_requests#Request_to_remove_references_to_Baltisches_Biographisches_Lexikon_(2022-05-12) for help to remove these statements in references — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:26, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]