Commons:Categories for discussion/2013/12/Category:Trams in Lisbon by attitude

There are a number of issues with the names of this cat and its child cats:

1. This cat and all child cats, attitude isn't really the right word, perspective is probably better.
2. 'Lisbon trams on the background‎' doesn't really make sense, is it intended to be for images which contain trams in the background? In which case 'Lisbon trams in the background‎' should be used, similarly there are a few child cats that need renaming too.
3. As mentioned at the CfD 'Lisbon trams backsides' and all child cats should also be renamed to the 'Lisbon trams from behind' syntax.
4. 'Lisbon trams ahead‎' doesn't make sense, trams are automatically ahead of the camera, it should be 'Lisbon trams from the front'.

Input would be appreciated. Liamdavies (talk) 04:41, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was working on clearing Category:Trams in unidentified locations in Lisbon, but important things like this should trump mere labour. Lets discuss, then:

1. Liam says about this category that «attitude isn't really the right word, perspective is probably better». While I deeply bow to bwana (and how could I not, Commons having English as its working language) and thank for the correction, I humbly suggest that, before such renaming is enforced, the proper meaning of "attitude" is ascertained. While its informal English meaning is way removed from the original Latinate etym, what "attitude" seems to mean in grown-up’s English is exactly what is meant: «The position of the body or way of carrying oneself; posture.» If "perspective" is a good choice for this, the go ahead, but I see no support for saying that «attitude isn't really the right word».
2. About Category:Lisbon trams on the background‎, so it ends up being only caused by my broken English use of "on" instead of "in"? By George then, lets fix it, my good man! However I have seen in some categories (about trees, if I’m not mistaken) the phrasing "(incidental)" appended to the category name, to be used for items which are not the main subject of a given image — but which are still worth categorizing. Maybe that would be even better?
3. Category:Lisbon trams backsides has indeed a pending renaming discussion due to being an evident grammar error, and it should follow its course. The form "Backside" is used considering the fact that only a few series have one, as historically most Lisbon trams were bidirectional. "From behind" may refer to the momentary direction of motion of a bidirectional unit (recognizable by the position of the trolley pole and the motorman), which is a different thing than indicating the rear end of an unidirectional car. (There is no complement category "Frontside" for the same reason that there’s no separate category for "trams by day" matching "trams at night".)
4. About Category:Lisbon trams ahead, again there is a misunderstanding to be blamed for the accusation of senselessness: "Ahead" here doesn’t mean "from the front" (see point above why not) but indeed «ahead of the camera», more exactly — facing the camera head-on, or, better, aligned to the ocular-to-objective vertical plane (or even line) of the camera. This is the counterpoint to "Category:Lisbon trams sideways" (leaving out most photos, which show the subjects at disparate angles), but more exact, as the perspective effect is lessened due to the oblongness of trams, “ahead” being their smaller attitude. And of course a tram may be head-on to the camera facing it with its backside (like this one — subcategory "Lisbon trams mooning" to be created whenever the number of possible elements warrants it). It goes without saying that this view head-on to the camera is something worth categorizing, as it is a relatively rare attitude and if useful to create iconic derivatives, when comparing different models, etc. Maybe "Lisbon trams head-on" is a better wording for this meaning?

-- Tuválkin ✉ 06:26, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First off, please do not take offence from my forward way of speaking, I did not, and do not mean offence when I say it makes no sense. I understand that it would be hard contributing to a multilingual project such as this in a language that isn't your first would be hard (not a position I envy); sorry for distracting you from your work!

1. Attitude has meaning in the position of an aircraft in English, but the usual meaning of it is slightly more emotive. For example "he has a bad attitude to work" isn't to do with his posture, but more their demeanour or behaviour. So although correct for aircraft (and possibly on a very technical level in this context) it is not really how the word is generally used (a tram is rarely aggressive). This is why I suggest perspective or position, I am easy as far as alternatives are concerned, but don't think it works in this context.
2. Haha! Incidental could be used, but it may give the wrong idea in an image like this one: File:Portugal - Trams, Trains and Funiculars (6687539065).jpg where the tram (in the foreground) is not incidental at all, and it could be argued whether the one in the background is as well. For images like this File:Lisboa - Norte da Praça do Comércio.jpg the wording incidental might work, but I reckon you were on the right track the first time and we should stick with background.
3. I see your point, I still think from the back would work, but what about Category:Lisbon trams from the rear?
4. Again, I see your point, but still think the name is wrong, what about Category:Lisbon trams head on (not great, as it's an idiom, but closer)?

Thank you for taking the time to give such considered responses! I think we can get some much better names very soon. Liamdavies (talk) 12:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I should say I find this bulleted approach really cumbersome, even after changing the lists to numbered. If these 4 discussions were separated in 4 subsections (or 4 separate pages of CfD), it would be much better. Anyway, my replies:

1. "Perspective" or "position" are in my opinion inferior to "attitude", but borderline acceptable to me.
2. You’re right about "incidental"; it rises the issue about detailed categorization of background subjects as such vs. its crop extraction as a new image and its subsequent categorization as a separate item. As for the grammar fix renaming, lets do it.
3. "From" is the problematic word here (and see below from JotaCartas about missing the whole point), as this not about the position of the photographer relative to the tram as in the other categories (sides, above, ahead), but what part of a unidirectional tram we are seeing (the rear being a special case as usually the front is prefered, just like the night/day case already mentioned). My counterproposal therefore is is: Category:Rears of Lisbon trams or maybe even Category:Rears of unidirectional Lisbon trams (but since 1995 almost all the fleet is unidirectional — only the remaining few from series 701-735 retain bidirectionality).
4. "Category:Lisbon trams head on" is good for me. No worries about English idioms, they are part of the use of any language and Commons categories are riddled with them as it is.

If there’s no opposition in 1 week, I’ll go on with these category renamings. -- Tuválkin ✉ 07:30, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wrapping up:

1. Category:Trams in Lisbon by attitude → Category:Lisbon trams by perspective:  Done
2. Category:Lisbon trams on the background → Category:Lisbon trams in the background:  Done
3. Category:Lisbon trams backsides → Category:Rears of unidirectional Lisbon trams:  Done
4. Category:Lisbon trams ahead → Category:Lisbon trams head on:  Done

-- Tuválkin ✉ 01:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it would be interesting to analyze the "parent categories" (or possible).

Trams in Lisbon by attitude -> Views of trams -> Views of rolling stock -> Views of rail vehicles, etc.

Also similar categories: Views of trains; Views of locomotives; Views of land vehicles, etc.

The sub-categories of some Categories are as displayed:

I think the "child categories" should keep as far as possible concordance with the "parents", so as an example:

• Trams in Lisbon by attitude -> Views of Lisbon trams
  • Lisbon trams from above‎‎ -> ok
  • Lisbon trams ahead‎‎ -> Front views of Lisbon trams‎
  • Lisbon trams backsides -> Rear views of Lisbon trams
  • Lisbon trams facing left‎‎ - ok
  • Lisbon trams facing right - ok
  • Lisbon trams sideways‎ -> Side views of Lisbon trams
  • Lisbon trams on the background‎ ???
  • Lisbon tram details‎ - ok (perhaps not in this category)
  • Tram interiors in Lisbon - ok (perhaps not in this category)
  • Lisbon trams with motion blur - ok (perhaps not in this category)

--JotaCartas (talk) 13:27, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a very reasoned proposal, and support it. I still think 'Lisbon trams on the background' should be 'Lisbon trams in the background', as on the just doesn't read well in this context. Liamdavies (talk) 14:14, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, «in the background» is right and «on the background» is wrong. Can we get over it and dully rename this one, please? -- Tuválkin ✉ 22:33, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In answer to JotaCartas’ suggestions, a few comments:

• Concordance with other categories, both parents and siblings, is good, but only worth the trouble if we’re copying a working model. And the thing is that, regardless of its problems, Lisbon trams in Commons is one of the more detailed and complete set of categories we have, with all images classified within all relevant trees. Besides, more important that the exact wording of a category is its semantics — and that needs to be ascertained with at least the same care. (After all we still have a disagreement between "Lisbon trams" and "Trams in Lisbon", but its homogenization will be done soon and qualmlessly now.)
• Concerning "Views of", I cannot agree:
  • First out, it is a redundant wording that makes sence mostly for big subjects, like buildings, that can only be taken in whole from afar. In our case, anything that is not Category:Tram details or Category:Tram interiors is a view of a (whole) tram. And that we don’t call Category:Views of trams, we call it simply Category:Trams.
  • In meta categories such as this one, the word "by" needs to be present — attitude, position, perspective, anthing, but always "Trams by" it.
• Please read above to see how the current categories Category:Lisbon trams ahead‎‎ and Category:Lisbon trams backsides are not opposite (indeed this one is both). Therefore a symmetrical wording for these two, as proposed, is misleading.
• "Category:Lisbon trams sideways‎" → "Category:Side views of Lisbon trams", sure why not?
• Concerning the remark that 3 subcats should «perhaps not in this category» be, yes, they all belong here ("by attitude" or however you want to call it), as opposed to Category:Trams in Lisbon by setting. The difference is that setting is independent of the photographer (on a steep grade, towing a trailer, in a depot, with passengers, etc), and “attitude” depends on the photographer’s location and chosen angle (detail or wide shot, point of view, etc.). (Indeed any category for photos could be bagged into one of these two.)

-- Tuválkin ✉ 07:30, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Lisbon trams sideways → Category:Side views of Lisbon trams:  Done -- Tuválkin ✉ 01:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Closed, category renamed to Category:Lisbon_trams_by_perspective by User:Jcb some days ago. –Be..anyone (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]