Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Chandra images

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository
Jump to navigation Jump to search
This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Chandra images

[edit]

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/image_use.html states: The images on this web site may be used for non-commercial educational and public information purposes. Please credit images to "NASA/CXC/SAO" unless other credits are given. In that case, credit the appropriate organization(s) or person(s) as they are listed with the image on our site. I'd rather keep'em, any ideas how we could do so?

Hedwig in Washington (mail?) 03:46, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There are some points to consider
  1. If you haven't received a take-down request on any of these, there's probably no need to delete them.
  2. All or the majority of the funding for these pictures probably came from NASA.
  3. There are many more in the category that are not listed here so I'd appreciate knowing if or when they are going to be deleted so I can transfer them to Wikiversity.
  4. Usually these debates to keep files put up for deletion are lost.
  5. If I may suggest, if all of the files in this category can be downloaded to en.Wikiversity I'll be happy to License them as Fair Use. There are just too many for me to download to my computer, upload to Wikiversity, and then apply appropriate Fair Use licensing.
  6. Some or one of these has gone through OTRS which should indicate that many can be kept, or send them all through OTRS.
  7. The loss of some of these is really going to decimate many Wikipedias, Wikiquotes, and others.
  8. There's no need to present a counter to any of these. --Marshallsumter (talk) 06:09, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No take down notice is not a good argument. Funding doesn't matter either. We are only concerned about the copyright. And yes, there are more in the category. I just listed the ones where the source points to chandra.harvard.edu. If we can use OTRS for all/most of them =>> Yeah! Let's do it!! OTRS-Ticket is not from a .edu or .gov source, btw. That might be a problem.--Hedwig in Washington (mail?) 06:53, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that this is a image use policy, not a copyright claim. Just because they want you to ask permission doesn't necessarily map 1:1 to a conclusion that the images are copyrighted and released under a limited license. We have seen such statements before with NASA images. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:52, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Regardless of the image use policy, Chandra X-Ray Telescope images are produced under NASA contract NAS8-03060, and are thus public domain. You'll see similar "policies" from other centers, such as Jet Propulsion Laboratory, but that does not change their copyright status, or rather, their inherent lack of copyright. — Huntster (t @ c) 10:00, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep them all. With respect to copyright, in the past I have contacted the commons designated copyright-holder. With no exceptions each one considered their image already Public Domain. But, they do not know exactly whom to contact here or at OTRS. The image ends up deleted because no one here who can prevent deletion volunteers to contact the agreed-upon copyright-holder. Each of these scientists wants the image to remain here. I would like it to remain here. In my opinion, all of these images are Public Domain, but these images will be deleted now because they have been put up for deletion. The flaw is with commons requirement that the copyright-holder contact commons, or some volunteer, not with the status of being in the Public Domain or copyrighted but for free use. My offer in point 5 still stands. I use almost 50% of these images on Wikiversity so I'll have to re-upload them, again in many instances. I no longer upload here because of the flaw mentioned. I'm still willing to contact the commons-designated copyright holder on commons behalf, but when that holder informs me they consider their image Public Domain or free use, and it's still deleted here, we lose respect for commons. I exclusively upload to Wikiversity and automatically designate them Fair Use, which, of course, they are even when they are also free use, or Public Domain. I'm sorry, but this is the last time I will bother with these discussions. It is time for commons to either fix the flaw or do without free use or Public Domain scientific images. Another alternative is to withdraw this deletion request and the images will stay for free use, which they are, and you won't receive a take-down notice. When NASA promotes an image on its websites, they really have checked with all participants. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. Commons just loses good images because of the flaw. --Marshallsumter (talk) 15:22, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just FYI but US copyright law requires the potential user to contact the copyright-holder, not the other way around. And, of course, Public Domain is also Free Use. Commons might also want to consider, or re-consider, using Fair Use. Many of the volunteers here struggle with the conflict between respect for the copyright-holder and the need for Free Use only. Many, many files are put up for deletion because the copyright-holder does not contact commons. In the case of collaborations between ESA (which usually requires Fair Use, but does not grant Free Use), NASA posts the image per agreement. But, the image is deleted here. Even if a volunteer contacts ESA, they'll receive no response, and the image is deleted even though NASA reached an agreement with ESA. I hope this helps. --Marshallsumter (talk) 16:08, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this is significant step aside from the relevant discussion here. Commons will never allow fair use, simply due to the stated mission of the site. Also, just because NASA posts an ESA or Roscosmos image, this does not mean that any agreement has been made that the given image has been released from copyright. No such "agreement" can be assumed without explicit permission from the copyright holder. — Huntster (t @ c) 16:29, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
File:Chandra cometpulsar zoom.jpg has now been re-uploaded to Wikiversity and placed in Fair Use. You can delete at will.
You're missing the key point. Commons volunteers put in a conscientious effort to contact, let's say ESA, receive no response so the image is lost. This discussion is not about copyright or the rights of the copyright-holder, or protecting commons from non-free use, or non-Public Domain images. It's all about having a large number of scientists who take these images contact commons and personally verify to commons that their images for which they hold the copyright for usually 70 years are Free Use or Public Domain. Probably all of them are more than happy to contact commons to verify this because having their images here helps promote their scientific achievements and their research programs. It also serves the common and greater good by educating everyone about the universe. But, this deletion request, which never should have been posted is likely to result in the deletion of valuable, Free Use or Public Domain images because this deletion request was posted. Which means that all is lost because user Hedwig in Washington is conscientiously concerned about the matter, but not sufficiently informed. It's really that simple! As an OTRS volunteer Hedwig in Washington could contact each scientist personally. Their e-mails are usually posted. The scientist will happily respond that the image can be used. End of deletion discussion with "keep them all" and OTRS number. If there's any problems with obtaining an e-mail, please let me know, I'll be happy to help.

--Marshallsumter (talk) 17:17, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Marshallsumter: Hold your horses! I am on the same side! No need for friendly fire. About contacting the scientists I'll contact you on your talk page. Maybe we can build something. Back to business: I'll contact Chandra and report back here. Shall we keep this DR open until we here back from NASA/Chandra? --Hedwig in Washington (mail?) 04:55, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hedwig in Washington, it certainly doesn't hurt, but we've already gotten word from Chandra on this topic, which is saved in OTRS form and published on the Chandra category page, as Ruslik pointed out below. It is the exact same format for crediting and determining copyright status as is used by virtually every other NASA project out there (a format which has been widely adopted throughout the science community). — Huntster (t @ c) 11:39, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
File:Antennae panel 420.jpg which is up for deletion, already has an OTRS approval for being here as Free Use or Public Domain. By putting these up for deletion, Hedwig in Washington has indicated that they should be deleted. If another custodian comes along now and sees these up for deletion, believes Hedwig in Washington is correct that they should all be deleted because of the commons flaw I've described, they will ignore the three keep votes and rationales and delete the entire category, and yes there are custodians here that will do that. Every day these sit here the probability increases for mass deletion. The only way to prevent mass deletion is to either close this as keep or withdraw the deletion request. It could take almost a year to find and contact each individual scientist who took an image or in someway touched the image before it was published. Some of these are joint Chandra and XMM Newton (ESA) or ROSAT (GSA). As long as one scientist is out there who hasn't been contacted by OTRS, at least several other custodians who are here will delete the entire category or each one where another agency other than NASA hasn't been contacted or hasn't responded. I've been through this way too many times! --Marshallsumter (talk) 12:28, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you would like to run a test, we can use File:1e0657 scale.jpg based on the given source:

(Credit: X-ray: NASA/CXC/CfA/M.Markevitch et al.;
Optical: NASA/STScI; Magellan/U.Arizona/D.Clowe et al.;
Lensing Map: NASA/STScI; ESO WFI; Magellan/U.Arizona/D.Clowe et al.).

Here D. Clowe is listed at U.Arizona and may have contributed using the Hubble Space Telescope or the Magellan spacecraft. He has used the Hubble as of 2012. Here's the necessary info: Douglas Clowe, Ohio University, email: clowe@ohio.edu, as of 2012 he was (and probably still is) an associate professor of physics & astronomy at Ohio University. There's a picture of him at url=http://www.ohio.edu/research/communications/darkcore.cfm. I would suggest attaching a copy of the above file and politely asking if he was contacted with respect to his contribution to this image, specifically if he has released his contribution as Free Use or Public Domain. If his contribution was with Hubble he may direct you to the Hubblesite. If his contribution was with Magellan he may direct you elsewhere. Or, he may write something like, "As far as I know my contribution is Public Domain." BTW you can also ask if he prefers the current credit on the image or something else. --Marshallsumter (talk) 01:13, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
His e-mail is current. His profile at Ohio University is at url=http://www.ohio.edu/cas/physastro/faculty/profiles.cfm?profile=clowe. He was a postdoc while at the University of Arizona. --Marshallsumter (talk) 01:44, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
 'Keep all and speedy close. Thanks for clearifying! Much appreciated! --Hedwig in Washington (mail?) 03:02, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: Natuur12 (talk) 14:17, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Chandra_images&oldid=165222379"