Talk:Gender variance

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Hey all. I was scrolling through this page, and noticed that there isn't anything really referring to how 'gender identity disorder' was previously listed in the DSM and had several 'treatments' tantamount to conversion therapy. A good example of these practices is Kenneth Zucker and his practice at Toronto's Centre for Addiction and Mental Health: Gender Identity Service before it was shut down. There is a wikipedia page about Kenneth Zucker which we could include, and there have been several books written about him and his practices, such as "Trans Kids: Being Gendered in the Twenty-First Century" written by Tey Meadow. Just felt that this is important information regarding how gender non-conformity was viewed in the medical field and how that has changed (though very little). (Sneezygirl) (talk) 12:46, November 2021 (UTC)

In the second paragraph of the Social status for Men vs Women section, a claim has not been cited. I have not been able to find a source to back up the claim made. I think this should be addressed to clean up the article.

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 8 January 2024 and 28 April 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Walvarez2 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Zisha68 (talk) 02:33, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Walvarez2: I just did a cleanup to your recent addition; I felt the use of the word 'deviant' didn't fit the overall tone of the article and I tried to clean it up a little (for example, to phrases like 'non-conforming' individual').

I don't have access to some of the linked references, so I would look to others to also comment on the specific content.

CaptainAngus (talk) 01:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has been proposed in this section that Gender variance be renamed and moved to Gender nonconformity. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Gender variance → Gender nonconformity – According to Google Ngrams, gender nonconformity is the more commonly used term. The article should be named with its common name. Urchincrawler (talk) 16:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 14:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - also supported by note hits in scholar gender noncomformity vs gender variance, so agreed per WP:COMMONNAME we should rename the title. Raladic (talk) 17:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Request Can someone offer 2 sources which support a position? I would like to see more evidence than just a count of Google Ngrams. Bluerasberry (talk) 16:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not really sure how else I would go about comparing use besides Ngram and Radalic's comment with Google scholar hits, but here are a few things that could count for evidence towards it.

  The APA dictionary includes gender nonconforming but not gender variance or gender variant.

  The article for childhood gender nonconformity uses "nonconformity" for its title rather than "variance", so the move would make the pages more consistent with one another.

  Searching "gender nonconformity" gets 373,000 results on Google while "gender variance" has 234,000. Urchincrawler (talk) 01:27, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, preferring the hyphenated version:
  • "Gender non-conformity" is clearer than "Gender variance". "Gender variance" sounds like it could mean gender diversity, which is about ratios and representation. Non-conformity also hints at choice, helping distinguish it from the topic "distribution of intersex conditions".
  • Hyphenated is easier to read than unhyphenated. MOS:HYPHEN suggests taking readability into consideration, not just common usage. MOS:CONFORM recommends ignoring source usage on punctuation specifically, although it's primarily about quotations. Many publications write for a specialized audience or primarily native English speakers, while Wikipedia seeks a broader audience. GLAAD, who are thoughtful about communicating to audiences less familiar with gender topics, recommend the hyphenated form, although they do not comment on punctuation explicitly. We can survive future debates about whether the adjective form uses a space/hyphen/dash ("gender–non-conforming people") by rephrasing if necessary. Jruderman (talk) 21:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure if MOS: HYPHEN is applicable here as it says "Hyphenation clarifies when the letters brought into contact are the same (non-negotiable, sub-basement) or are vowels (pre-industrial), or where a word is uncommon (co-proposed, re-target) or may be misread (sub-era, not subera). Some words of these sorts are nevertheless common without the hyphen..."

  Nonconformity does not have the same letters or vowels come into contact. I also would argue it's not an uncommon word considering there are several articles with the word in the title but not hyphenated. (Nonconformity, Nonconformity in Wales , Nonconformity to the world, etc.)

  While I'm not strictly opposed to hyphenating it to be gender non-conformity, I would need a more compelling explanation as to why that should be the case. Urchincrawler (talk) 23:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think you're right that I went overboard with my interpretation of "uncommon" in my reading of MOS:HYPHEN. The examples there are super weird.

  Fwiw, there are some examples of the hyphenated version on Wikipedia: Non-conforming mortgage and Non-conformists of the 1930s. However, they are fewer and less prominent than your examples. Anyway, consistency within Wikipedia isn’t the main concern here, because the other articles can be changed if there’s a strong argument for one style or the other.Jruderman (talk) 01:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]