Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alwattan Party(Libya)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. No prejudice against starting a merge discussion on the talk page. -Scottywong | babble _ 17:07, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hizb El Watan (Libya)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Content fork, article for the party already exists on this page National Gathering for Freedom, Justice and Development EllsworthSK (talk) 21:11, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. These are different parties. The National Gathering for Freedom, Justice and Development was founded in November 2011, while the formation of Hizb El Watan was announced on April 16, 2012 (Umar Khan (April 10, 2012). "Three-day event in Tripoli to announce "Nation Party"". Libya Herald.). --Lambiam 02:20, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They are still one and the same party, the name is same as well and so is membership including the leading figure, just one is in arabic and other in english. November 2011 was date when party formation was announced and April 2012 is when it was registered and established. EllsworthSK (talk) 10:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I have searched the web to find any documentation that these two parties are one in the same, and could find none. Unless Ellsworth can come up with more than a personal undocumented opinion, namely unless he can provide some kind convincing documentation, I can see no reason to delete this article simply because of one contributor's undocumented opinion. Also, I was able to find numerous references to the "Hizb El-Watan ..." party, but scarce few to the "National Gathering...." party. If they are the same party, perhaps the "National Gathering..." article should be deleted and not the "El-Watan article. Scott P. (talk) 20:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Really? The exactly same name of the leader did not give you any indication? The exactly same candidacy is also a coincidence? Or does al-Salabi have now two parties, because that is how he rolls? If I had to guess National gathering was just as name suggests, gathering, the foundation of political party which resulted in establishment of Wattan Party (http://wattan.ly/). So here is the deal, delete this article and move the second one into Homeland Party (Libya) as the names of the political parties should be primarily in English language. EllsworthSK (talk) 21:56, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After spending another hour trying to find an "in-depth" analysis of the relationship between the Hizb Al Watan (Libya) party and the "National Gathering...(NGFJD)" party, this is what I've found. I must make an educated guess here, because I was unable to find anyone who spoke with clear authority on this question. It appears that EllsworthSK is probably mostly right, and that Hizb Al Watan is probably a reformulated version of the old NGFJD party. Over the last 6 months, references to the NGFJD party have dried up, and seem to have been replaced with references to the Hizb Al Watan party. It is somewhat frustrating since there doesn't seem to be much in-depth news coverage on this topic. Still, even if our theory is correct, it remains only an undocumented theory of contributors. Until a journalist writes a news article that clears this all up, we remain here stuck only being allowed to write articles that are supported by the available documentation. So I would hope that you might not delete or create any articles related to this question until such moves can be supported with actual independent and reliable documentation. Documentation rules. Thanks. Scott P. (talk) 15:49, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:31, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:31, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:32, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:32, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I had hoped the Arabic Wikipedia might clarify this, but their disambiguation page for Hizb El Watan (ar:حزب الوطن) has a red link for the Libyan party, and no article on the other one either. I further note that a user's page on the Arabic Wikipedia with (apparently) a list of needed articles (ar:مستخدم:عبد المؤمن/مسودات) lists both parties separately (as red links). --Lambiam 21:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 2. Is it possible that the new party is effectively a merger between the National Gathering and the Libyan Islamic Movement for Change, which appear to have co-existed as distinct organizations for some time? --Lambiam 21:48, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Doubtful, AbdeulHakim Belhaj is long-time ally of Ali al-Sallabi and he announced that he will form political party with him shortly after the fall of Sirte and death of Gaddafi. Also LIMC is not part of this party, for example Sami al-Saadi, one of the commander of LIFG, is candidating for Umma party [1] EllsworthSK (talk) 22:02, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But for example here, here and here we find Belhadj speaking for the LIMC, even using the first-person pronoun "we". Apparently, al-Saadi did not follow Belhadj in his choice for Hizb El Watan, but I don't see how this fact allows drawing further conclusions about the relationship between LIMC and Hizb El Watan. --Lambiam 14:13, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here the Umma party is described as "a group which separated from the Nation Party [= Al-Watan Party] to form their own party". --Lambiam 17:19, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 05:42, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, here is my proposal. It is more or less same as before, but merge this article with National Gathering for Freedom, Justice and Development article which shall be renamed to Homeland Party (Libya). Why name it Homeland Party and not Al-Watan party? Because names of the parties are primarily in english on english wikipedia. It is established that both articles deal with one and the same party, there is not much content in the second article that is not in the first one, rest can be easily copied. EllsworthSK (talk) 12:03, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does this mean you withdraw your nomination for deletion? You can't very well both delete and merge. I'd like to see the evidence for your statement that "It is established that both articles deal with one and the same party". As to the name, there is a discussion on that topic at Talk:Alwattan Party (Libya)#Al-Watan or Alwattan?. There is no general rule that we use English names for parties and such; for example, we do not use "The Base" but "al-Qaeda". The rule is instead that we use the name most commonly used in reliable English-language sources. Unfortunately, there are not many such sources at the moment; that will very likely change with the upcoming elections. --Lambiam 15:22, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.