Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of rugby union matches between Leinster and Connacht

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. May be a bit bold but there seems to be a rough consensus in the long discussion to improve on these articles. Certainly no consensus to delete. (non-admin closure) Etzedek24 ^{(I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record)} 01:08, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

History of rugby union matches between Leinster and Connacht[edit]

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List articles like this are typically reserved only for matches between national teams, and even then only the tier 1 nations. – Pee Jay 11:39, 16 February 2021 (UTC) I am also nominating the following related pages because they are part of a series:[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Rugby union-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:03, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:03, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:03, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Realistically, there is a rivalry between between all of the sides in the ones that have been listed. They play each other regularly and there is significant coverage of the matches in the media, likely passing them for WP:GNG. However not sure whether lists of results are enough to pass WP:NRIVALRY. Previous lists like this were deleted because there was not a rivalry between the sides, and all that remain is where a rivalry occurs (such as matches between Six Nations teams or Tri Nations sides, or when something notable has occurred in one of the matches sparking a rivalry such as Japan and South Africa). Would like to see other voters comments before making a vote. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 13:06, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @Rugbyfan22: Perhaps a better article to have, then, would be Connacht Rugby–Leinster Rugby rivalry, similar to the Arsenal F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry article title style used by WP:FOOTY? – PeeJay 13:11, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - @PeeJay:, I agree articles like this would be better, certainly at club/province level. You could certainly get a significant article on the Leinster/Munster rivalry, and there is probably enough coverage for articles on the other rivalries listed. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 13:15, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - If we could get the interest in people actually writing proper articles rather than just slinging a few tables of statistics together, I think I could see this AfD being withdrawn. However, is there such an appetite, and are the articles in a good enough state to avoid deletion as things stand? – PeeJay 13:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      - I know @MunsterFan2011: does good work on anything Munster related and has edited on other Irish rugby related things in the past, and @LeinsterLad: has edited a lot of Leinster stuff in the past, so perhaps they could be interested. @Mrgoggins90: and @CUA 27: have also edited Irish rugby related articles regularly in the past also. Could be a case that new articles are written with these articles being merged into them though. I personally don't have enough knowledge/interest on Irish rugby to write them though. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 13:32, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep! (while agreeing that modifying/improving is a good idea). Thanks, Rugbyfan22, for inviting me to the discussion. It looks like the discussion above evolved from "are these notable?" to "how do we improve these?", and the second question is exactly right. In evaluating whether the rivalries are notable, the first sentence of the Leinster/Munster article states (with citation): "Leinster versus Munster is, according to some Irish commentators, one of the biggest provincial rivalries in world rugby,[1] which dates back to 1879, the year of founding of the provincial sides." I think these articles pass WP:GNG with plenty of room to spare. In terms of improvement, I think we can expand the prose for these, add some references, keep the summary statistics; I don't feel strongly about whether to keep or remove lists of individual fixtures. Also, can't resist commenting on PeeJay's question "are the articles in a good enough state to avoid deletion as things stand?" ... I don't think that's the right question, per WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP. Instead, let's continue the discussion above about how best to improve them. I'd be willing to help put in some work to improve at least some of these. I'm guessing MunsterFan2011 would too, at least for the Munster ones. CUA 27 (talk) 23:10, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @CUA 27:, personally I like PeeJay's suggestion of moving the pages to Leinster Rugby-Munster Rugby rivarly as used in football and as used in the example of WP:NRIVALRY. I'm not sure keeping an exhaustive table of all matches is necessary, and I think it breaches WP:NOTSTATS. But by adding prose and by using some of the statistics listed in the articles (such as head-to-head record, top points scorers, attendances etc.) then you could get a good article out of it. I'm not sure there are any examples in club rugby to use as examples (likely because a lot of pro teams have had shorter existences due to professionalism etc), but the football ones could certainly be used to show what sort of things could go in the pages. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:12, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm fine with restructuring these articles to provide some more context around the provincial rivalry and why it's important, it would certainly make these articles better. I don't the statistics are in violation of WP:NOTSTATS — the statistics here are neither excessive nor unexplained. They also provide important historical context, showing how the rivalries evolved and power shifted over time. Happy to help reshape these articles into a more suitable format. McKennaP (talk) 10:54, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'm just not sure a result by result summary in its current form is required. Some of the football related rivalry pages do list full history of results, but the tables have been simplified, such as in South Coast derby (rivalry between Southampton and Portsmouth, and even that page needs some more sourcing). Splitting them into tables for competition specific matches (a table for Pro12/14 etc, European competition, Irish cup and interprovincial championship) could be a way of improving that though. Thanks for offering your help though @McKennaP:. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 11:10, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'm sure matches between each of the provinces have their own historical significance as rivalries, but the Leinster–Connacht list is sorely lacking in context right now. It seems to purely exist as a list of matches and a small summary thereof. Is there any reason why the list of matches starts in 1946 and then has a little break in 1996? If the notability of the Connacht–Leinster rivalry could be substantiated, I'm sure that article would survive deletion. The other lists are slightly more substantial, as they actually put the rivalries into context, but all of them could do with more. At the moment, I'm unconvinced that these lists are anything more than a statistical archive. – Pee Jay 13:12, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have a rough consensus here that these articles could and should be improved — by focusing on the rivalries, adding prose, and adding reliable sources. I have already started making some improvements at History of rugby union matches between Leinster and Munster. See what you think, and whether this starts to move things in the right direction. If so, I (and others) can keep working away on improving these. If folks had a different view of what should be included/improved, I would welcome your thoughts. Thanks. CUA 27 (talk) 14:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, I'm still unsure about the Connacht–Leinster one. Is that a real rivalry? I mean, I guess when there are only four provincial teams, you're bound to have significant rivalries between each of them, but I don't see that in the article. – Pee Jay 15:13, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looks a reasonable start with the added prose and sources, still think the large table of results is ugly and could be tidied into something more presentable and easy to read. In terms of the Connacht/Leinster rivalry, there is sourcing our there such as this, this, and this, the modern rivalry seemed to stem from a couple of losses early on in the Millenium, with Leinster losing an unbeaten run to a last minute drop goal. If this prose can be added then it should be fine, it certainly not as fierce as the Leinster/Munster rivalry but with it being All-Irish and occurring 2/3 times a year I think there's a rivalry there. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 16:50, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all. Thanks @Rugbyfan22: for your invite to this discussion, and to @CUA 27: too for your note. I'd like to echo CUA 27's comment of "Keep! (while agreeing that modifying/improving is a good idea)". I'd be happy to contribute in improving the quality of these articles. I agree that an exhaustive list of fixtures is perhaps not the best format to be used, and that it could instead be broken down perhaps into a list of key fixtures. To use Munster–Leinster as an example, the article could focus on fixtures such as the two famous Heineken Cup semi-finals in 2006 and 2009, which are probably the most notable for each provinces supporters, but also the Celtic League finals and possibly also the league semi-finals.

To provide context, one could argue that these rivalries pre-date the professional era, owing to the inter-provincial championship that was run by the IRFU from 1946 until 2001 and still exists informally. When the Pro12 was reorganised into the Pro14, home-and-away fixtures between the four Irish teams were specifically retained in order to maintain those rivalries, as is also the case with the four Welsh regions and the two Scottish teams and their 1872 cup. Whilst most Munster fans will point to Leinster as their fiercest rival, there are some Leinster fans who consider Ulster to be their main rival. Historically, Leinster and Ulster have contributed the majority of the players selected for international duty with Ireland, which in itself has contributed to the rivalry between the provinces, as Munster and Connacht have often felt their players were overlooked due to 'elitism' in Dublin and Belfast.

Economics and demographics also play a part in the rivalries. Dublin, being the capital and largest city, and by extension Leinster as the province the capital is in, has substantially more people, businesses, resources and investment that the other provinces, particularly Munster and Connacht. Dublin alone has over 20 private schools, many of which are able to prepare young players in an almost professional-like setup for the step-up to pro rugby, whereas there are only 9 private schools in the entire province of Munster and even less in Connacht. This in itself has contributed to the rivalries, as there are some fans who feel that Leinster and Ulster gain an advantage, some would argue unfair, by simply having the good fortune of having more economic muscle.

It's no secret that Ireland's economy has struggled ever since the collapse of the Celtic tiger. Many young people faced little choice but to leave their homes and move to the capital to work. They settle there, start their own families there, and whilst they may remain Munster fans or Connacht fans, their children naturally often become Leinster fans, it is after their home province and often the team their peers support. If you're an immigrant looking to settle in Ireland, you are most likely to settle in Dublin. If you're a foreign investor looking to grow your business in Ireland, are you going to invest in Dublin or, say, Limerick or Galway? Chances are you're going to invest in Dublin and open your business there, it's where most of the people are and where most of the money is.

These things are of course not unique to Ireland and Irish sport, but they are the contributing factors to rivalries on the pitch and beyond - there is an identical debate that has been taking place in Ireland for a number of years now about the resources afforded to Dublin GAA which we could connect with a dotted line to this discussion. I feel if we can draw out these factors and improve the articles with this information, then there is a strong case for keeping the articles, albeit I recognise that the specific articles may be merged with new articles, or even deleted once a stronger replacement articles is in place. MunsterFan2011 (talk) 11:40, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments @MunsterFan2011:, there's a lot of good information there, certainly stuff I didn't know or didn't appreciate when it comes to the rivalry. If a lot of that can be sourced and added to the articles then that would be great. I'm guessing at least one historian has written a book on the Irish rugby rivalries or history of Irish rugby that covers the rivalry between the sides and covers the points you've made above. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 11:46, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment With the first week of the AfD coming to an end, shall we move this conversation to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union#History of rugby union matches between Leinster and Connacht + others. I see that updates are starting to be done to the first three. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:53, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.