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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Article needs tagging and/or trimming, but there is certainly no consensus for deletion. Drmies (talk) 19:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Muller[edit]

Robert Muller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)
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No evidence that Muller meets the notability criteria. The article on Under-Secretary-General of the United Nations states Assistant Secretaries-General are often deputies within Departments or Programmes, reporting to their respective Under-Secretary-General - this would not appear to be sufficiently high enough to be inherantly notable, and Muller does not appear to meet notability on other grounds. Apart from the Star-News coverage for his obit, the other coverage I could find is minor (along the "Muller, former ASG will be talking at a meeting", kind of thing). PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 20:04, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Postscript: Incidentally, the two other references do not appear to meet the criteria for establishing notability. The New York Open Centre Honorees reference has his name, but that is linked to the Wikipedia article; the NAPF reference does include his biography, but this in itself is not sufficient to show notability. The entirety of the references do not add up to notability. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 20:15, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 20:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:36, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Robert Muller's entry - it is being updated. There is plenty of information that shows Robert Muller is a notable person.
Shortly before the page was designated for deletion almost all contents had been removed with an insufficient explanation. "Removing puffery/CV style writing” doesn't explain anything.
We don't understand why the following information that was on the page before:
Robert Muller was born March 11, 1923 in Weismes Belgium, raised in the Alsace-Lorraine region in France.
During his youth he experienced constant political and cultural turmoil. Robert Muller knew the horrors of World War II, of being a refugee, of Nazi occupation and imprisonment. During the war he was a member of the French Resistance. After the war he returned home and earned a Doctorate of Law from the University of Strasbourg. In 1948 he entered and won an essay contest on how to govern the world, the prize of which was an internship at the newly created United Nations.
Dr. Muller devoted the next 40 years of his life behind the scenes at the United Nations focusing his energies on world peace. He rose through the ranks at the UN to the official position of Assistant-Secretary-General. He has been called the "Philosopher" and "Prophet of Hope" of the United Nations.
Robert Muller created a "World Core Curriculum" and is known throughout the world as the "father of global education." There are 29 Robert Muller schools around the world with more being established each year. The "World Core Curriculum" earned him the UNESCO Prize for Peace Education in 1989.
During Dr. Muller's active "retirement" he was Chancellor of the University for Peace created by the United Nations in demilitarized Costa Rica. He is the recipient of the Albert Schweitzer International Prize for the Humanities and the Eleanor Roosevelt Man of Vision Award.
In addition to his duties at the University, he devoted time to his writings and was an internationally acclaimed, multi-lingual speaker and author of fourteen books published in various languages.
At the prompting of many of his friends, admirers and non-governmental organizations Robert Muller was a candidate as a global citizen in 1996 for the post of Secretary General of the United Nations.
Robert Muller died September 20, 2010. ”
was replaced with this:
Robert Muller (born 1923 in Belgium, died September 20, 2010) was an international civil servant with the United Nations. Assistant Secretary-General for 40 years, his ideas about world government, world peace and spirituality led to the increased representation of religions in the UN, especially of New Age Movement. He was known by some as "the philosopher of the United Natons"
The removed text was substantial and filled in essential information about Robert and his life. What was put in its place is not a fair description of Robert Muller.
We don't understand, either, what was the reason for removing the list of the books and references and only keeping two of them and not the rest?
What was the reason not to at least keep some of the text that was on the page?
We would like to enter some information back without “puffery”. We will add more references to better demonstrate Robert Mullers notability. The short info about Robert is essential and the list of the books published by Robert helps demonstrate Robert's notability. Additional references will also add to citations of Robert's notability. A more fair decision can be made with this additional material.
Here are some links to websites in support of the claim that Robert Muller is a notable person:
Thank you for helping us provide more substantial information to demonstrate Robert Muller is a notable person.Kaczdan (talk) 17:30, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for that, a quick reply (I've been awake for the last 38 hours, and need to get to sleep!) In my opinion, the removal of the material from the article was quite correct - the content was unencylopedic, and "puffery" in nature. I note that you have said "we..." a lot - you are obviously representing someone, presumably the Muller organisation - and would appear to want to use Wikipedia to promote the (worthy) values of Muller. That is not Wikipedia's purpose.
The references you provided do not demonstrate adequately (in my opinion) the notability of Muller. They are either personal opinion pieces (such as the UN Memorial speech), or from sources which would not appear to meet the independence requirement or reliability requirement:
  • Secretary-General's remarks at Memorial Service for Robert Muller
    • Personal opinion, from the organisation he was connected with (the UN). Not an independent source
  • Good Morning World Blog
    • Muller's own blog, this is a memorial wall. Not an independent source, and blogs are generally not considered reliable sources
  • Goi Peace Foundation
    • An organisation with no article (Goi, Goi Peace Foundation) on Wikipedia, and no indication that either the organisation or their awards are recognised as conferring notability
  • World Harmony Run
    • An organisation whose article World Harmony Run I have proposed for deletion, as I see no evidence that it is notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia, or as a reliable source here
  • East Beach
    • As the publisher of some of Muller's works, they are not independent. Also, the bio here seems to be the bio found elsewhere for Muller - presumably a standard one issued by Muller/Muller's organisation - similar to a press release in effect, and so not independent
  • UN Online article
    • Written by Muller (so not independent) on a Robert Muller Schools International websiet
  • Peace Pilgrim
    • 2 short paragraphs mention him in a total of 4 sentences - not the quantity/quality of coverage required ("Robert Muller, former assistant secretary general of the United Nations and chancellor emeritus of the UN University for Peace, suggested the idea of recognizing Peace Pilgrim's life work for peace by having a life-size bronze statue of her walking placed on the grounds of the University. Instead of honoring military generals, Muller has tried to honor and lift up the work of those who have given their lives for peace." ... "Robert Muller collected soil from Pennsylvania, the U.S. state of 'Brotherly Love', and sand from Santa Barbara, California, from the shores of the Pacific Ocean, the 'Peaceful Ocean', to sprinkle at the feet of Peace Pilgrim's statue on the day of the statue's dedication. He encouraged others to join him, bringing soil from around the world, as prayers for world peace.")
  • SGI Quarterly
    • An article written by Muller (so not independent) published in an publication which doesn't even get a mention in passing on the publishing organisation's article.
All in all, I see no evidence of his notabily sufficient to persuade me that I was wrong to nominate this for deletion. Others may feel differently, which is why we have this community discussion to make the decision, based on the consensus. And now, after 39 hours awake, I really must get to bed! Regards, PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 22:09, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello PhantomSteve, Please Keep. I posted the new, updated information on the Robert's page for you to see. Please have a look to see if it is acceptable from your point of view. If not, what changes you suggest? There are tens of thousands of websites on the Net referring to Dr. Muller. It is enough to google with the search term “Dr. Robert Muller” (in quotation marks) to see that (447,000 results). Some of those websites refer to other people. I checked the first ten pages. More than 60% of them refer to Robert Muller we are talking about here. Your opinion so far was based on incomplete info. It is not your role to search for the information yourself. That's understandable. I am convinced though that you will change your opinion based on this new info, simply because the notability of a person with tens of thousands websites referring to him can't be denied. As for the article in Wikipedia I am doing my best to improve it according to the Wikipedia requirements. I will appreciate very much help and any and all constructive opinions to improve it further, from people like you, who know much more how the Wikipedia works than I do. Thanks for your time.Kaczdan (talk) 17:28, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Besides being very popular (tens of thousands of websites referring to him) Dr. Muller meets the following notability criteria:

  • He is a person significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded.
  • He has received a well-known and significant award or honor (UNESCO Prize for Peace Education, Albert Schweitzer International Prize for the Humanities, Eleanor Roosevelt Man of Vision Award, Honored by the New York Open Center for his "Lifetime Dedication to World Peace and Global Education").
  • He has been nominated for another significant award or honor (was a candidate as a global citizen in 1996 for the post of Secretary General of the United Nations )
  • He has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in the field of world peace (Co-founded the University for Peace in demilitarized Costa Rica and began his active retirement from the UN as the first Chancellor of the University).Kaczdan (talk) 17:30, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not vote more than once. Only one vote per user is allowed. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:43, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:01, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I added some external links (below) to the article with more information on the life and work of Dr. Robert Muller

Kaczdan (talk) 19:37, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    • None of these are appropriate sources. Please read WP:RS in order to find out what kinds of sources we consider acceptable here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep. Looks borderline notable from RS coverage. Article is poorly sourced though. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion the sources are reliable. They may not be mainstream, but they are not extreme, either. Not being mainstream doesn't make them unreliable. I have always believed, too, that Wikipedia is here to reflect the world community as it is, not only what is accepted and/or promoted by the mainstream media.Kaczdan (talk) 02:37, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree with Phantomsteve that the article, as it was on 20:15, 11 May 2012 (UTC), qualified for deletion. The article has been rewritten to meet the criteria set by Wikipedia. It is a completely different article now.

  • Postscript: Besides the reasons listed in my post on May 17, Dr. Muller meets another notability criteria: He has been nominated multiple times for a significant award or honor: He was nominated multiple times for the Nobel Peace Prize.Kaczdan (talk) 02:44, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Having quickly looked through the article as it now is, I am still not convinced that Muller meets the criteria for inclusion. The sources on the whole appear to be either from press releases or from organisations directly connected with Muller - or they merely mention him in a list of names. A couple of the sources consist primarily of an interview with Muller which, though interesting, is effectively self-promotion/press-release-ish. For clarity, I still feel this article should be deleted. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 21:25, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Muller's notability can't be denied (he meets several notability criteria, as indicated in my previous posts), the references are there to confirm that the facts listed in the short info about him are true, and the external links are there to shed more light on Dr. Muller's life and personality. Kaczdan (talk) 16:31, 26 May 2012 (UTC)Kaczdan (talk) 17:27, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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