Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Salvatore Aranzulla

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus defaulting to keep and w/o prejudice to a future renomination. I am singularly unimpressed with the quality of the arguments on both sides of this issue which only occasionally seem to invoke WP:PAG and more often tended to veer all over the place making the discussion extremely unwieldy and difficult to follow. If there is an inclination to renominate this page I would strongly advise that a very clear and concise rational based on our policies and guidelines be laid out at the first. Ad Orientem (talk) 05:36, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Salvatore Aranzulla[edit]

Salvatore Aranzulla (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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[Prior to everything I apologise for possible errors in English language, which is not my mother tongue]. The article is about an Internet phenomenon who is not either an established entrepreneur, nor an IT expert (he's basically someone that reads on behalf of you the user manual of an electronic device) and also lacks of notability outside his narrow niche of followers. He's only "Famous for being famous"; or better, "notorious for being notorious". Of course I am aware that every chapter has their own rules and guidelines, often radically different one another, but even the community in Italian language, which should be the most impacted by the phenomen, had expressed their perplexity about the relevance of the biographed person, so much that the article were deleted by consensus. I am just proposing that the community in English language evaluates the encyclopedical relevance of the subject. SERGIO aka the Black Cat 16:56, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:38, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:38, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 18:39, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. In my opinion, the main issues with this article is that several of the "key" facts that maybe could support notability are not indipendently verified. Especially, it is claimed that S.A. at young age discovered and/or exploited significant web vulnerabilities on websites such as Poste Italiane. None of this is corroborated by any evidence outside of his own website, later copy-pasted in a short bio inside an interview-style book.

Also, there is a non-negligible chance that the article was, at least in part, written or supported by S.A. himself or his employees, and we know for a fact that Wikipedia does not support vanity articles. This already happened on the Italian Wikipedia in 2006, when the page was deleted 12 times over a period of 10 days for this reason and then 10 years later.

Currently, the main argument for the existence of the articles seems to be that he is popular. Guidelines clarify that "Notable in the sense of being famous or popular—although not irrelevant—is secondary." --TheLazza (talk) 10:54, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

there is a non-negligible chance that the article was, at least in part, written or supported by S.A. himself or his employees no there is not :D. I was not going to comment here but this is actually quite fun. Plus it should be said is totally untrue. You could have pinged me asked me, if you really wanted to know, but you just drop it there, while you can check who I am and see I had nothing to do with him, just met him at an event in April 2018 and said I could have written this article in English since there was plenty of sources. This occurred few weeks after a discussion with quite a few wikipedians in March in Florence who considered the deletion on itwikipedia excessive (I don't think I even started such discussion). I simply found useful to describe something people still look for. And he is not in my field, more importantly I don't even like him (or in any case, I dont' fully get him) :D I knew him like everybody else, but never used his tutorials because if I need, I google basic questions in English, but I am not a snob.

Also, you got an answer in the talk page, I can find you at least two national newspapers that define him what he is, the most known personality in his field, the "expert" of this "basic problem solving" for the Italian audience, and I guess you can find even more sources. But as Italian you know that, he has this "role". In the end, adding more sources about that is no big deal, but if people want that, they don't start a deletion immediately or they don't make allusion in the deletion procedures. So, go on. it could be actually more interesting to link this discussion to everyone asking about this story and the obsession of it-N wikipedians with Aranzulla (see the incorrectly inserted deletion requests or tags over the months). BTW, besides being the most known in his "field", he is notable by enwiki standard also for the fuzz generated by the deletion procedure. A part that I think you even improved in the article. Thank you for the laugh. Also, don't forget lawiki article. That was written by I think a former member of the Board of Director of Wikimedia Italy, who has a blog on the topic of web communication and/or wiki stuff, and he is a sysop on itwikipedia, you can doubt about him too. --Alexmar983 (talk) 22:10, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

“while you can check who I am” — Technically speaking, I cannot. I have no power to do a Check User operation, your profile does not specify your real name (totally fine, it is of course not required) and in any case this deletion discussion is not personally about you, but just about the article.

“you got an answer in the talk page” — Thank you, I responded more precisely over there. I'd just like to repeat a point here: currently it seems we do not have evidence he hacked / found vulnerabilities in companies such as Google, Microsoft or Poste Italiane. If sufficient evidence of this can be found, I will strongly consider strucking my previous "delete" and suggest to keep the article.

“it could be actually more interesting to link this discussion to everyone asking about this story” — In my opinion, that's not a good idea and it could alter consensus. I remember the "call to action" S.A. did when his article was about to be deleted from it-Wikipedia, on social media and then (after the fact) on newspapers. It did not turn out wonderfully.

--TheLazza (talk) 17:38, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you can check who I am, it's all on the internet. As an expert guy who can look inside guideline of a platform you almost never edited and an expert guy in general, you can do it very easily. It has nothing to do with a check user operation. Just think about that there was no reason to state something so big like that, you just wanted to see this reality, that's the point. Also, we even discussed in your talk page years ago and at a time I did not care to write this article.

About that part, remove. It is incidental in this context, the sources for the notability are other ones. Look I found other ones right now. a national newpaper calling him Maestro Manzi, than "il guru" on a video of Il Sole 24 ore il più famoso divulgatore informatico d'Italia in the description, than a a national radio where Linus define it more famous than Emily Ratajkowski to the audience. But you know this, you know he is the most known popularizer in the field. I know that and I did not live in Italy for years when he was already famous.

it's not a "call to action", I will link it after you completed the deletion in future discussion ;D. Which is no big deal, you really think I link to get support? I told you in talk page of the article how much I care. You see? here it is again, just for the anglophones reading this discussion... we have people who make of Aranzulla such a big deal that sometime they "create" this reality that just does not exist as much as they think it does. Aranzulla does not care about this article I suppose (when I briefly chatted with him he was quite calm about it, the idea of an article in English was possible but I suppose it is not his main target that's why he did not care particularly, who knows), I wrote it and I don't care very much (I commented because of this far-fetched allegation of being close to him), people with whom I discussed about it in these days while talking about other wiki-things don't really care about keeping it or not (but of course since the fuzz by the previous deletion, a lot of it-N wikimedians immediately realized about this deletion too). BTW, the English page is linked from the main page of google on the lateral infobox from Italy, so somebody will end up here maybe in any case, as they landed on the article in the previous months.--Alexmar983 (talk) 19:10, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Whether he does or "does not care", or what "his main target" consists of, is completely irrelevant to this discussion. You are turning the rest in a personal argument, with snarky remarks about my Wikipedia usage and a bunch of sarcastic smilies, which I am not interested to get into. Bye. --TheLazza (talk) 13:49, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You made a personal comment about who I might be, that's how you started here... and about the fact that the person who write this article might be close to him. you. And if you want, you could be interested in the sources. I asked you many times in the talk page if you want to put them in the article, the ones here and the other ones there. I never got a reply. I am glad we kinda proved to the anglophone audience what is sometimes the level in the it-N community about Aranzulla, a fact that users on this platforms could guess also by the unusual deletion attempts and the tags in the previous months. Now I guess that since I will never get an answer about inserting the additional sources, I can add them in the article myself. --Alexmar983 (talk) 22:18, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please, we are on en.wiki. I guess that our English-speaking friends don't care for the dynamics of the chapter in Italian language, so we have to make a collective effort to avoid replicating them here. -- SERGIO aka the Black Cat 22:43, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to avoid to replicate them, don't start a discussion citing the deletion on itwikipedia as if it was a pro (it was not, by any platform standard, a functional procedure). Now people can start to question type of behaviour could be part of such decision, which I think the English-speaking users should also know f you cite it. To be honest, we are not replicating them, because I stopped them. As soon as the image of promotional POV-pushing was evocated, I killed it. Now you can hardly reply here the dynamic of the Italian wikipedia. As a result, we can finally discuss about sources and nothing else. I'm happy because I am the one who cited those.--Alexmar983 (talk) 22:59, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, I will insert all the sources tomorrow with calm, just for this discussion please notice also these snippets I found (easily)

• Spiati dai cellullari: «Il microfono è sempre acceso e ascolta tutto, per difendersi va disabilitato» on Leggo il divulgatore informatico più seguito sul web
• Scienza a tutto tondo al Focus Live di Milano for INAF il re degli smanettoni
• Posti in piedi al Focus Live: che cosa è successo il terzo giorno on Focus , il celeberrimo blogger e divulgatore informatico.

Plus there might be even something on academic publications. In any case, the sources here and in the talk pages are probably enough. Tomorrow I add them.--Alexmar983 (talk) 22:59, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, I have edited quite randomly during the last hours. Since the important ones are already here and in the talk page, I have added a lot of "minor" sources, in order to clean up the situation. The last part is to rearrange the first lines with all the sources that define him as the most important popularizer in the field of IT for the general Italian public, which we have enough. I had to add more sources about the reaction to the deletion because it was not balanced. Originally, I avoided inserting it in order to evaluate the relevance only by the other aspects, but it was inserted so now it should be described a little bit more. What was there was totally missing other reactions. Finally, I added the information about the Italian promo of Black mirror because it was on different sources. There is also his new initiative as a pastry chef which is maybe correct to cite since two or three sources already do that (but I would avoid inserting it for the moment). He was cited for the "scandal" of the food delivery guys and the celebrities who do not leave a tip, but I also decide not to insert this part. Plus, there is also the award from the town of Catania, this can also be added. In any case the real final edit is the insertion or rearrangements of all the sources from national newspapers and financial magazines about the relevance in his field. --Alexmar983 (talk) 18:59, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is, as I am now learning by having a look at the history of the page, that this is an article created by an Italian user whose home wiki is it.wiki.
And it looks to me like a (dangerous) loophole in order to pave the road to its reintroduction on it.wiki.
Alex, I am telling this honestly and frankly because I know you: this RfD was opened for the ENGLISH community to express their concern about an article of dubious enciclopedicity. Thus this is not an Italian RfD temporarily relocated on en.wiki.
Please, do not attempt to monopolize the debate with a flood of non pertinent data (like the ones you just tried to provide with) and considerations regards other partecipants. this is a discussion for the english-speaking community. Can I hope you understand what I say and step behind? I repeat: CAN I EXPECT that this is a matter that is not managed by guests on this chapter like us? -- SERGIO aka the Black Cat 19:31, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I am a editor of enwikipedia. In addition to that FYI my original homewiki was frwiki before itwiki. I created this article after years from the itwiki deletion (and after its established presence on other language editions) as part of my interest in biographies of living people which i find challenging but interesting. It was coincidentally cited to me two times in the span of few weeks, that's why I decide to create it. After the pseudo-trolling of Italian users I stopped enlarging as I wanted to, and now I am completing it. Also, I have been even more active here than itwikipedia in the last months, or even years. To be honest, the other user is much less active on this platform than I am. If it was not a problem for you that he was here making allegations that were not pertinent to the article, how is my presence an issue now? If he did not make a unsubstantial claim about me, which is mostly why I am here, would you have been ok with his presence? BTW, isn't he also the user who started the deletion on itwikipedia, I seem to recall? In any case, I was not present on itwiki deletion procedure, I know it because many peoples in Italy (and all wikimedians) knew it at the time and it was quite a big thing. As a user of this platform, I will edit the article and describe why it fits the notability guideline of enwikipedia. The other "anglophone" users can make their comments about it. If I might, I find your deletion proposal a little flawed. If you have so much respect for the active content-creating users of this platforms, you could have waited for them to ask for a proper deletion request, instead of bringing the business of another platform here since the beginning. Platforms are independent and even if a deletion procedure is a good thing to scroll to get an idea (certainly for some sources), that specific deletion was not, it was quite dysfunctional and you should know that. As a result, you also invited comment such as the first one with these far-fetched allegations. Now that people have this aspect a litte bit more clear in mind, and your "authoritative" statement is a little bit more into perspective, they can simply evaluate the sources. In any case, I have no problem to leave this discussion after the last enlargement. will however explain why he is obviously not "famous for being famous", and I am here if anyone needs help about the Italian language.--Alexmar983 (talk) 20:25, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

established presence on other language editions: German (by a globally blocked Italian user), Latin and Lombardian. Please kindly don't try to make a fool of me :-) -- SERGIO aka the Black Cat 21:09, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am not fooling anyone. Nobody deleted it after one year on German wikipedia, which is quite selective and has a rigid page revision mechanism, and a very expert user wrote it in Latin. Never considered lmowiki, in my evaluation. Since I got no reply on the rest, I hope you agree. In the end, I put an additional step before also checking the sources, it's more than many other users do. If I might, you actually tried to make a fool of me with your attempt to ask me to leave this discussion, and with your attempt to act as the person who wants a discussion devoid of the itwikipedia influences, after I was the one who had to stop them (and with the creation of this page after few hours of the doubt of the Italian user, citing the itwiki deletion procedure, you actually encouraged them).--Alexmar983 (talk) 22:21, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have added other sources. You all can refine, change, remove one but there will other ones. In the end, Aranzulla is not "famous for being famous", is the most important popularizer in the IT field for the general audience in Italy. There will be other sources probably, it takes more time to insert them than actually finding them. Have a nice holiday.--Alexmar983 (talk) 22:21, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, here is a source that is not Italian. It's Swiss-Italian, just to prove how Aranzulla is known to all the areas speaking this language. On Radiotelevisione svizzera here he is described as the Christian Barnard dei PC.--Alexmar983 (talk) 22:46, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well basically the reason for deletion are sheer: Aranzulla is neither an IT specialist (by his own admission, plus), nor a technician, and the few articles that talk about him cite him only as phenomenon of costume to underline the general technological ignorance of the average Italian people. He's basically vaguely notoriius for having been dropped from it.wiki and having offended as "losers" the ones who expressed consent favourable to his biographical article. -- SERGIO aka the Black Cat 19:21, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article fits WP:GNG. Aranzulla is the most relevant popularizer in his field to the Italian (or in a broder sense Italian-speaking) public. The presence of a Swiss source in this discussion (and in the article), that highlights his role, does not fully fit the narrative of ignorance of the Italian public about IT, and even if so this is the sort of consideration that has nothing to do with what the sources state. It is not possible to find a source in the last years that describes him just as "vaguely notorious" but a lot stating he has been in "notorius" and the reason is clear in expressions such as "king" or "guru" of this aspect of IT problem solving. His presence on newspapers, magazines, radio programs has been quite constant. He was already cited on specialized magazines or national TV programs when he was a teen-ager because of his work, he later became a successful entrepreneur who is currently interviewed by the most important Italian economic newspapers and magazines specifically because of this aspect. The deletion of his itwikipedia article was not notorious because he called "loser" the person who proposed the deletion, but because some newspapers couldn't even explain to their audience who found it excessive. As a person widely known to the public, he also has a minor involvement in some pop culture dynamics, as this often happens. Even not considering that, he is relevant in his field. --Alexmar983 (talk) 23:45, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Swiss source is not relevant because the Italian Switzerland, as well as San Marino, are not culturally "foreign", since they are bordering the mainland Italy. Aranzulla's relevance is still to be demonstrated, as the vague source cited in this discussion demonstrate. -- SERGIO aka the Black Cat 01:09, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The canton of Lugano is not similar to Italy under many aspects, unless you have a source that states that their IT literacy is like the Italian one and that they are both poor. Both SUPSI and Università della Svizzera italiana have good or advanced research lines in the field. Switzerland has one of the highest standard in the world on overall literacy and computer diffusion. the country is at the top in the GDP investments in R&D. The national school system is second in the future skill preparedness and top 5 in the Digital Competitiveness ranking. I am just grabbing the first sources I am finding with google.

In any case, the sources concerning Aranzulla in the article are not vague. They are quite consistent over the years, presenting him as the top in his field. And they are on all major magazines and journals (only one, a 30 y.o, business magazine does not have an article here on enwikipedia, they are all sources so established they were all translated even on this wiki). The ones in the article now are those mostly related to him (I put the snippets where he is briefly cited only in this current discussion, and I have more from every types of sources).--Alexmar983 (talk) 12:46, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind to elaborate a little bit about the relevance of any fact you stated about Switzerland? I mean: Switzerland is advanced in IT, so what? S.A. is not a computer scientist nor an IT manager/expert/professional. Neither does he work in Switzerland. He is a full-time writer of tutorials for the general public, written in Italian. "His field" is SEO, not IT. His company legitimately earns money through ads and maximizing the number of visits on its website, not by managing IT projects. Moreover, it is not surprising at all that the Italian speaking community in Switzerland reads Italian language websites, which are mostly based in Italy. --TheLazza (talk) 14:29, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I said there are also Swiss sources, somebody pointed out that their situation is the same of Italy. I noticed it's not like that. They read the same sites (probably, but again why I am the only person bringing sources?) ok, but even with a different situation, they still give preeminence to him in this sector. BTW, I think the only really relevant part are the sources, I never put considerations of the low IT literacy of the Italian population as a factor to be taken into account in assessing the relevance of Aranzulla. He is a popularizer of problem solving and is recognized as the top both in a country with low IT literacy and in a region with high IT literacy. Which of course kinda proves the point that IT is not his core competence, which was never questioned by me. I simply point out sources are here and describe him in a certain way independently of their field (general, economic) or region (Italy or Switzerland) or year (2016, 2017, 2018, 2019).--Alexmar983 (talk) 16:03, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Meets WP:GNG; plenty comes up on a Google News search. Bondegezou (talk) 12:50, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - it even says in the article that "his page on Italian Wikipedia was removed because he was not considered sufficiently relevant" - I will trust the Italian Wikipedia here as they are closer to the subject and recommend delete - Epinoia (talk) 21:46, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you cite itwikipedia let's consider some facts about this deletion there. The let's say 50-50 split the itwikipedia would have kept the article if vote started (you need a two third majority to delete) but the discussion was closed before the vote, it was claimed that the consensus was clear, which wasn't by itwikipedia standard. People who wanted to keep the articles were also sysops and made good points as well. And it was with the sources of 2016. There are three years more of sources and a ongoing discussion even on itwikipedia now on it:Discussione:Salvatore_Aranzulla. Which is quite bizarre because also the talk page should be deleted, but it was not in this case. A peculiar situation. The loophole is that if an article is under deletion and there is no consensus you have to vote, but if you claim consensus is there (and it wasn't there) and the article is deleted (no matter how, for example avoiding to vote claiming consensus is reached) at that point you need to have consensus to put it back. It's not just that, there is more. Actually Aranzulla could even be on tiwikipedia as a relevant writer if you assume it fits these conditions, and here you have an ongoing debate about the sort of relevance of the reviews of the book he published.

But, if you want to avoid digging into that (because as wikipedians we use other wikis as a starting point NOT as a source per se), just look at the sources. As a person with similar amount of edits here than those you have, but who can understand the language of the sources, I looked at them. Consider a country of a similar size, e.g. UK. Think about somebody who is described three years in a row by TV and radio and newspaper of such country as "the guru/king/etc of problem solving" both by pop culture and economic sources. That's notable by enwiki standards, here the source are in another language, but it's the same situation. As wikipedians we should trust the sources.--Alexmar983 (talk) 22:50, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.