Talk:Q69538724

Hi Pallor, I don't know what to say. I understand that Soma, in Hungarian, is a big historical male name and it seems absurd to set it as unisex. But we're on Wikidata here and one name can have multiple meaning in different languages. Just look at this associated category in Commons: Category:Soma_(given_name). The first person in this category is a women from Germany.

I'm from France and Alexis (Q1558167) is a male name in France. Historically it's a male name. But for some reason it became a female name in the US pretty recently. So the name is set as "unisex" in Wikidata. I don't want to go in an edit war, it's too absurd. It's all up to you. Deansfa (talk) 14:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Deansfa! Of course, the problem has already come up before, see for example the Italian male given name Andrea (Q18177306), the Hungarian female given name Andrea (Q18177321) and the unisex character of Andrea (Q493293). In such cases, the solution is usually to create an opposite-sex counterpart of the given name, and if we know for sure that there is a language/culture where it appears as a name for both genders, then the unisex version. You can use the opposite of (P461) property with the given name used for females or males compared to the same used for the other gender (Q21012914) qualifier, so the path to the solution is completely established.

The Commons category is irrelevant here because - unlike Wikidata - the description sheet does not include the gender of the people in the pictures. Commons only promises to have images of people whose names are described by the following string: S•O•M•A. This is the case for all names on Commons, which have male and female versions, but on Wikidata we distinguish between them.

Please don't forget that the problem started when you gave a woman a man's name and instead of correcting it, you described my editing as ridiculous. This is definitely not the way to a solution. Nothing is up to me here. Pallor (talk) 15:06, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just about my description of your edit yesterday, I want to apologize, I was half drunk, I should have not edit WD. I'm not sure if the solution is to create an item for male and an item for female: it will then defeat the purpose the "unisex" status. I was looking at the Wikidata talk:WikiProject Names page hoping to find similar conversations ; the first discussion is about a male name given to a female. The user Ghouston is saying that "I don't think claims like "male given name" are a good thing, as discussed previously.".

I disagree about Commons. Commons has been so far an amazing test for Wikidata, which is fully integrated with it. Commons already infers last and first name from Wikidata without the need to add the DEFAULTSORT in the body of the category. By creating multiple elements for male and female, we're messing up this technical feature, feature that can be applied to other Wikipedias in the future.

I agree and acknowledge that the system is clearly imperfect, and in our case the female version of Soma seems to be a transliteration from an Indian female name. But I still believe that Soma should be set as unisex. But I will let as is since it's very "edge case" here (one or two female elements have Soma as a first name). --Deansfa (talk) 15:30, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Deansfa:: in such a large project as Wikidata, you can always find supporting and opposing opinions, since we do not think alike. Look at the property deletion requests or element. In this case, practice should be kept in mind: we have 40,254 male given name elements, 24,818 female given names (and 22,336 given ames, which may partially overlap with the first two due to incorrect labeling). We cannot in any way claim that it is not widespread to distinguish between male and female names. There is absolutely no solution to our current debate, you start creating elements just because they are called Soma and they are women, because we KNOW they are there is a female name Soma, but there is no element yet. It also does not take you forward if you do not enter in the name element which languages ​​the name is known in. Simply create the female name element Soma and put it in the women. I don't know of a better solution at the moment. Pallor (talk) 17:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"you start creating elements just because they are called Soma and they are women": that's a wrong assumption my dear. I create every journalist of the Wall Street Journal, mostly female for the moment, whoever their name is. It's a preliminary work for a bigger project I'm working on. Page of the project as a proof: User:Deansfa/Liste des journalistes du WSJ, which is updated every day. And BTW, I create names (last or first) very often. Over time, I acknowledged the usage over names and adapted my conception to the usage (especially on seing French names only through the prism of the French language). Hope you change your mind too at some point. But no pressure ;-) --Deansfa (talk) 00:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]