CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, the special counsel election. It's not just Donald Trump's campaign that may go through a courtroom. Attorney General Merrick Garland appoints a special counsel to investigate President Biden's son.
ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND:
I have concluded that it is in the public interest to appoint a special counsel.
CHUCK TODD:
While former Vice President Mike Pence asks Republican primary voters to shift their support away from his former boss.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
There’s almost no idea more unAmerican than the notion that any one person can choose which votes to count for the American presidency.
CHUCK TODD:
How much will Vice President Pence make January 6th central to his campaign against his former running mate? I’ll ask him this morning. Plus, challenging Biden. The new special counsel appointed fuels more criticism from Republicans
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
If he was a Republican he would be in jail a long time ago.
CHUCK TODD:
Biden is also facing critics from within his own party on his capacity to serve. I’ll talk to Democratic Congressman Dean Phillips of Minnesota who is actively calling for more primary challengers to Biden. And red alert.
SEAN HANNITY:
That vote in Ohio is pretty, pretty sobering.
CHUCK TODD:
Ohio voters deliver a victory to supporters of abortion rights and offer another warning sign for Republicans
FMR. GOV SCOTT WALKER:
If Republicans are just focused on one issue, they’re going to have a bit of a challenge.
CHUCK TODD:
Support for legal access to abortion is winning inside red and blue states from Kansas to Kentucky to Michigan. Will it be a motivating factor for voters in 2024? Joining me for insight and analysis are Politico "Playbook" co-author Eugene Daniels, Republican strategist Brendan Buck, Symone Sanders-Townsend, former chief spokesperson for Vice President Kamala Harris and Politico National Correspondent Betsy Woodruff Swan. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
And a good Sunday morning. In case you needed another sign that the 2024 campaign will be shaped by legal dramas in courtrooms in Washington, Delaware, Miami, New York and Atlanta rather than door to door in the state of Iowa, we got a reminder again on Friday. Attorney General Merrick Garland announced that Trump appointee and U.S. Attorney David Weiss, who's been investigating Hunter Biden for alleged tax and gun crimes for five years now, had now requested special counsel status and he’s going to get it after a plea deal collapsed in court a few weeks ago when a federal judge balked at granting Hunter Biden expansive immunity.
[START TAPE]
ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND:
The appointment of Mr. Weiss reinforces for the American people the department’s commitment to both independence and accountability in particularly sensitive matters.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Now President Biden's son could face a trial at a time when Democrats were hoping to keep the campaign's focus on Donald Trump's legal problems. Now the two cases, they are hardly comparable. Donald Trump is now under federal indictment for attempting to overturn the 2020 election and for mishandling classified documents that include a U.S. military plan of attack on Iran. President Biden has not been charged with any wrongdoing and, at least so far, Hunter Biden's alleged crimes are two years of not paying his taxes, which his attorneys say he has since paid and lying about his drug use at the time of a gun purchase. And clearly, Hunter Biden is not a candidate for president. But President Biden's handling of the case has raised questions at a time when voters already have doubts about his age and political standing. Biden brought his son to a state dinner just two days after the plea deal that has since collapsed was announced and he has repeatedly defended him, denying wrongdoing even though Hunter Biden himself has pleaded guilty:
[START TAPE]
REPORTER:
Are you confident your son, Hunter, did nothing wrong?
PRES.-ELECT JOE BIDEN:
I'm confident.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
First of all, my son has done nothing wrong. I trust him. I have faith in him.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I'm very proud of my son.
REPORTER:
Did you encourage him to take a plea deal Mr. President?
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
In totally, there are now three Special Counsels actively at work involved in this presidential campaign: Jack Smith, named in November to oversee ongoing criminal investigations into Trump's handling of classified documents and his attempts to overturn the 2020 election, Robert Hur, he was named in January to investigate the handling of classified documents found at President Biden's former office and his home and now of course David Weiss. The decision to delay the appointment of Weiss as a special counsel is also a bit hard to understand. Even the language Garland used announcing his appointment Friday, emphasizing independence and accountability in particularly sensitive matters, are almost the exact same phrases he used when appointing Jack Smith nine months ago to oversee the Trump cases. The legal calendar will continue to overshadow this political calendar. Trump's lawyers were actually in court on Friday hashing out the details of what he is allowed to say publicly about the January 6th case to protect witnesses and sensitive documents he’s about to receive from the Justice Department in discovery. And prosecutors in Georgia, where Trump is likely to be indicted a fourth time in the last year, have indicated they plan to present their case to a grand jury later this week. Still, Donald Trump's rivals are going through the motions of a traditional political campaign even as he leads them nationally by more than 30 points and his legal dramas blot out the sun. And they're trying to catch Trump in Iowa, where he has a dominant lead despite visiting the state just six times since announcing his campaign in November. This weekend, they posed with the famous butter cow and food on a stick at the Iowa State Fair. And despite going through the motions of campaigning against him, Trump's rivals have passed up numerous opportunities to criticize him for at current count his 78 felony counts. But they jumped at a chance to comment on Hunter Biden.
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
It just seems to me that they are going to find a way to give him some type of soft glove treatment and I don’t understand why you would appoint this guy to be the special counsel.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
Why did this take two years to do this? Why did they say Hunter Biden and not the Biden family? You know, why did this suddenly come up when there was all of a sudden the Biden pay to play conversation? I don't trust it but the American people don't trust the Department of Justice.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now to unpack all of this is former FBI Senior Official and former U.S. attorney Chuck Rosenberg who is an NBC News legal analyst. Chuck, you're going to be a regular here on the show at this point. We may have to call you a co-host. So, explain this to me. Why now, did the Attorney General choose to make David Weiss a special counsel when, again, I go back the same rationale he used for Donald Trump's special counsel clearly applies to here?
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
And by the way, Mr. Garland had described David Weiss's running room as sort of plenary, right? That he had the independence he needed to make his own decisions in the case. So why give him this extra title?
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
It seems somewhat cosmetic to me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
So, is there additional tools that he has now that he didn't have before? What are those tools?
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
At the edges, yes. It means he can bring charges in other districts on his own signature, but frankly, he could have done that if he needed to previously. So again, I think the right word here is cosmetic. It doesn't really change the tilt of the earth.
CHUCK TODD:
So then what’s – the motivation here for the Attorney General, is he worried that the cases against Trump were going to look biased if he didn't do this?
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
Well, there seems to be a drum beat to appoint the special counsel to investigate at least Hunter Biden if not the Biden family. Mr. Weiss, the special counsel, now has the authority to take the investigation wherever he thinks it ought to go. There's a problem I think generally with the special counsel regulation, and there's another problem that worries me even more. It's this: I don't think Mr. Biden or Mr. Trump, for that matter, should be treated any better or any worse than any other person under investigation. They both deserve to be treated fairly, whatever you may think of them. They deserve to be treated fairly. Special counsel's, though, bring an intense focus on just one or two people, and that can be corrosive.
CHUCK TODD:
So then what you're saying is it almost is unfair, they're not getting treated the way others would get treated by the Justice Department.
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
Right, and so that worries me. And to appoint a special counsel, an Attorney General has to find extraordinary circumstance.
CHUCK TODD:
He keeps finding extraordinary circumstances, quite a few.
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
Which makes me think it's becoming rather ordinary. We've had five special counsel in the last six years. And I don't mean this in any way against those individuals, they're principled people, they were doing the jobs they were asked to do. Rather, I worry institutionally whether having so many special counsel under so many quote/unquote "sets of extraordinary circumstances," corrodes the department?
CHUCK TODD:
It seems to undermine the whole rationale of putting a former federal judge. The whole point was to try to take the politics out of this, and he is essentially conceding he is perceived to be too biased to see these cases.
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
Yeah, I, think.
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, that's what it looks like. I know that's not what he's saying.
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
That's not what he's saying but I think it's a great point, and it goes to a larger issue. So the design of the Department of Justice, Chuck, the design is that it be staffed by career people, that the political layer is extraordinarily thin. The FBI has almost 40,000 men and women?
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
One is a political appointee. Every U.S. attorney's office in the country has at most, at most, one political appointee.
CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly on Donald Trump's attorneys arguing for what he can and can't say. The judge, everybody's been wondering, what is that stick? How is she going to try to enforce any penalties? Moving up the trial date seemed to be an interesting stick that she chose to use. Do you think that's probably effective enforcement?
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
Well, you might be able to say the shorter the period between now and the trial date, the less damage he can do by speaking publicly about the case. But she's in a tough spot, because he absolutely has a right to campaign, and he has first amendment rights. On the other hand, right, you can't interfere with the fair administration of justice or tamper with witnesses. So she's going to have to watch this very closely, but it's not an easy thing for her to do.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Chuck Rosenberg, getting us started this morning again in the courtrooms instead of the primary trail. Mr. Rosenberg, thank you, sir. And joining me now is former Vice President Mike Pence. Mr. Vice President, welcome back to Meet the Press.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me just start with your reaction to the attorney general's decision to appoint U.S. Attorney David Weiss, who was an appointee of the Trump and Pence administration, his decision to make him a special counsel in the Hunter Biden probe. Do you approve of that decision?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, first, let me say, Chuck, I'm running for president because I think this country's in a lot of trouble. I think Joe Biden has weakened America at home and abroad. But, frankly, the pattern of the Justice Department during our four years in the White House, and since, has undermined public confidence in equal treatment under the law. And while I welcome the appointment of a special counsel, which is, of course, appropriate and is a minimum where the attorney general has a potential conflict of interest, I'm also comforted by the fact that Congress is going to continue to do its work. I'm confident that House Republicans are going to continue to bring forward the facts in this case. The American people have a right to know whether or not President Biden's family benefited or that he himself benefited when he was serving in the job that I had as vice president of the United States in a financial way from foreign nationals. These are – these are facts the American people have a right to get to the bottom of. I am hopeful that Special Counsel Weiss will do his job without fear or favor, but – but I have confidence that Jim Jordan, Congressman Comer, and others will continue to do their job for the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I couldn't help but notice you had said that the Justice Department, even in the four years that you guys oversaw it, you thought also didn't seem to conduct investigations –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
– fairly. Why do you think this is? How is it that this is a bipartisan problem that you're identifying?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, look, I mean, it started in 2016 when James Comer gave Hillary Clinton a pass, right, that no other American would have gotten. But then what we, you know, what we've found out since is the truth about what was going on during the Mueller investigation. You know, I lived through that for two and a half years when we were busy rebuilding our military, cutting taxes, unleashing American energy, securing our border. All the while, we actually had FBI agents that were falsifying documents and pushing a political agenda within the Justice Department. It's one of the reasons why I tell people that if I have the privilege of being president of the United States, we're not just going to have a new attorney general and a new FBI director, Chuck, but I'm going to clean house on the whole top floor of the Justice Department and, and demand that we have men and women who are respected on both sides of the aisle as people of integrity who will apply the rule of law in this country equally to every American.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I want to get to the indictment on the former president here and a specific point here having to do with the elector scheme, because earlier this month, you told a colleague of mine here that you didn't know a lot about the efforts to secure fake electors until after the fact. But it was interesting, in your book, you –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
– you brought up the fake slate of electors in a meeting with the Senate parliamentarian on January 3rd. In your book, you said this, "I asked her a direct question," referring to the Senate parliamentarian. "'Are there any alternate electors from any state?' She told me there were not. I mentioned that I had heard that some alternate electors had been sent from several of the disputed states." So, this was on January 3rd. What can you tell us about what you knew about this elector scheme on January 3rd that prompted you to ask this question?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I just heard what was being talked about in the press at the time, Chuck, but I thought it was important. Look, I – in January of 2017, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. Under the Constitution, states certify elections. And, while there were irregularities in states, maybe a half a dozen states around the country that changed the rules in the name of Covid, we challenged those in sixty court cases. Once the courts had reviewed those and the states certified them, I wanted to make sure that – that we were – we were operating on January 6th in a way that was consistent with the Constitution, consistent with the laws of the country. And, and that's the reason that I sat down with the parliamentarian. I looked through the process. I was determined to hear the objections that Republicans were planning to bring, Chuck, and many did bring. I mean, you remember, Democrats brought objections to electoral college votes in three of the last four elections that Republicans prevailed. There's nothing –
CHUCK TODD:
Right. Under the law –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– unusual about that –
CHUCK TODD:
Right. None of it – right, they all –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
So, I did ask the parliamentarian--
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, under the law.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I did ask the parliamentarian very directly, Chuck. I asked her, because I was hearing rumors. I was reading in the newspaper that there were alternate electors. I just – I asked her point blank –
CHUCK TODD:
Was anybody in the White House telling you this?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– "Are there any other electors from any state?" And she said there was not. I don't recall that. I just remember hearing it in the public –
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– and I wanted a definitive answer whether or not the parliamentarian had received any additional electoral votes. She had not. So, as you know, we actually changed the language as those electoral college votes were recorded. But, look, you know, Chuck, I've told you many times. I said it again at the Iowa State Fair. I had no right to overturn the election. The Constitution is quite clear. As vice president, my job was to preside over a joint session of Congress where the Constitution says the electoral college votes shall be opened and shall be counted.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. Let me ask you this –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
And I know, by God's grace, I did my duty that day.
CHUCK TODD:
Donald Trump said this week that he never asked you to disregard the Constitution and that he never said that you were too honest. Either of those things true?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, look, you can check his tweets, I think, on the day of, the day before. I mean, the president was quite clear and quite public that he thought that I had the authority to either reject or return votes to the states.
CHUCK TODD:
So you stand by the too honest –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
The Constitution and the laws of this country –
CHUCK TODD:
– that he said you're too honest?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– gave us absolutely–
CHUCK TODD:
You stand by that remark?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– no basis. I do, Chuck. I mean, it's part of – part of a dialogue that happened between the president and me. And that was related, I think, to a bogus lawsuit that was brought to try and force my hand, to have a federal judge say that I had the right to throw out votes. Look, there's almost no idea more un-American than the idea that any one person could choose which votes to count for president of the United States. The American people know, as I heard from dozens of people at the Iowa State Fair, Chuck, the American people know the presidency belongs to them, to them alone, and no one person has ever had that authority or ever should under our system.
CHUCK TODD:
Were you surprised that Mark Meadows was not listed as a co-conspirator? Because you had told me, and you've mentioned in your book, you thought he was leading the former president down this path on election interference and all the different things – and all the people he was bringing into the room. Did it surprise you he wasn't on this indictment?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, Chuck, I don't remember saying anybody was leading it. I remember saying there was a group of crackpot lawyers that the chief of staff allowed to be in the Oval Office that, frankly, should have never been allowed on the grounds.
CHUCK TODD:
You told me –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Literally, you had –
CHUCK TODD:
– you didn't think the chief of staff served the president well.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– the president of the United States.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. You had said in various ways –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, that's exactly what I just said, Chuck. I'm happy to repeat it. Look, the chief of staff's supposed to be a gatekeeper. You're supposed to make sure the people that are getting into the Oval Office have the credibility to be there. And, frankly, this – this group of lawyers that were allowed to counsel the president and tell him what his itching ears longed to hear is that I had some right to reject votes or return votes to the states, there was no basis in that in history. But, you know, look, Chuck, you know, I think our Constitution is more important than any one man or any one man's career, including mine. I took the stand I took that day because of that oath that I took. And I couldn't be more encouraged, Chuck, as, as one person after another, not just in Iowa this last week, but in New Hampshire the week before, more and more Americans are coming up to me and expressing their appreciation for the stand they took. They know I chose, I chose to keep my oath to the Constitution that day. And if I'm president of the United States, I always will.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you, though, you keep – you're very careful in what you talk about, whether Donald Trump's the nominee, whether you can support him again. If he – if you thought he violated the Constitution, how can you support Donald Trump again for president?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, Chuck, what I've said is I'm happy to meet the criteria for the upcoming Republican presidential debates. I'm incredibly proud that more than 40,000 Americans in just nine weeks have supported our campaign, made it possible for us to quality for the debate stage. And, in fact, Chuck, I think I'm actually going to qualify for the second debate before we get to the first one, because –
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– more Americans are seeing that my consistent conservative record, my years as vice president, my years as a governor here in Indiana, my years as a House conservative leader for 12 years are really just what the nation needs.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you – I'm curious –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
This is no time for on-the-job training.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
This is no time for distractions. We need leadership on day one –
CHUCK TODD:
Do you – Do you consider yourself –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– that'll be able to provide the team and the vision –
CHUCK TODD:
Mr. Vice President –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– to turn this country around, and I can.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you consider yourself a MAGA Republican?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I’m – I'm incredibly proud of what we did in the Trump-Pence administration for four years, and you'd better believe it. In those four years, after eight years of the slowest recovery since the Great Depression, eight years under Barack Obama and Joe Biden that saw military cuts that hollowed out our military, eight years of liberals on our courts, under the Trump-Pence administration, with the support of MAGA Americans, we literally did make America great again –
CHUCK TODD:
Do you feel like you're a MAGA --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– before that pandemic struck.
CHUCK TODD:
– Republican or not?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Look, look, I'm a Christian, a conservative and a Republican in that order. I've always said that. People who know me know those are my values. Those are my ideals. And I really believe that the agenda that I've always been about, that I'm looking forward to taking to that debate stage, is the agenda that will bring this country all the way back.
CHUCK TODD:
And believe it or not, I do want to try to ask you one question about something you did this week. You rolled out an energy plan. The Wall Street Journal, I think, was complimenting you --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I did.
CHUCK TODD:
– by characterizing it as, "Drill, baby, drill." A) Do you accept that as a compliment? And, B) --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
– do you think the government, though, should play a role in trying to find renewable energy to replace fossil fuels at some point? It doesn't sound like you think the government should play that role.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, look, gasoline prices jumped back up this week. Remember $2 a gallon, Chuck? I sure do. That happened under our administration. We unleashed American energy. It was an “all of the above” energy strategy. We achieved American energy independence in three short years. Joe Biden launched a war on energy on day one, and he shut down the Keystone and Dakota pipelines. Energy prices, gas prices are still up 60%. Electricity prices are up 25%. We laid out a vision following on my plan to tackle inflation.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
We laid out a vision this last week not just to achieve energy independence. It's one of the things your colleagues over at the Wall Street Journal neglected to mention. I also believe not only can we achieve American energy independence again, but I believe with the right policies going forward, we can reclaim our role as the leading producer of energy in the world --
CHUCK TODD:
All right.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– by 2040. It'll take leadership. It'll take --
CHUCK TODD:
All right.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– a commitment to American energy independence. And on day one of a presidency that I'd be privileged to serve in, we'll fight to restore that American energy strength, and leadership, and dominance in the world.
CHUCK TODD:
Former Vice President Mike Pence, sounds like you have got a night at home, which is rare on the campaign trail. I'm glad you did. Be safe on the trail, and we'll see you on the debate stage.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Thanks so much. And, Chuck, I appreciate you having me on.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. When we come back, he wants President Biden to have more competition to win his party's nomination in 2024. Meet Democratic Congressman Dean Phillips of Minnesota. He joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. President Biden currently faces just two minor Democratic challengers: Robert Kennedy Jr. He has a famous name but he's a lawyer and vaccine skeptic whose candidacy has been boosted by people like Steve Bannon and financed in part by MAGA donors, believe it or not. Then there's Marianne Williamson. You may remember her from 2020. She's a self-help author, and was on the debate stage briefly in 2020. Academic Cornel West is vying for the Green Party nomination, and could pull votes from the left. And West Virginia Democratic Senator Joe Manchin is flirting with an independent run, and may leave the party to do that. And now Minnesota Congressman Dean Phillips is calling for a more competitive Democratic primary, saying voters don't want a coronation, they want a competition. Phillips, who is in his third term representing suburban Minneapolis, can tell you a little bit about him. He lost his father in Vietnam. After business school at the University of Minnesota, Mr. Phillips joined the family business, Phillips Distilling. He went on to help build Talenti gelato into a top-selling gelato brand, and also opened Penny's Coffee, a small business in the Twin Cities. And he is, like I said, in his third term. Phillips has denounced, by the way, the No Labels attempt to fill a third party ticket, but he has called for serious Democratic primary challengers to President Biden. And last week he met with Democratic donors in New York about the race, potentially entering it himself if no one else does. Congressman Phillips, welcome to Meet the Press.
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
Good to be with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Did I sum this up right? You are not interested in being a candidate for president technically yourself right now, or are you?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
That's a fair statement. What I'm technically and legitimately doing is representing. I'm a Representative, and I'm representing what I believe to be the majority of the country that wants to turn the page. Tired of the meanness and the fear mongering of Donald Trump. I would like to see Joe Biden, a wonderful and remarkable man, pass the torch, cement this extraordinary legacy.
CHUCK TODD:
You don't want him to run for reelection?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
I believe what’s in the best interest of the country – and by the way, this is not how everybody thinks, but I do believe the majority wants to move on. The news was that I was meeting with donors. The fact is, I listen to normal Americans every day, and my own feelings.
CHUCK TODD:
Is this all about age?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
No, no. This is about how people feel. By the way, it's not about what's real all the time. It's about how people feel. People want to turn the page. I think that's fair to say. As a Democrat, I adore Joe Biden. He saved this country. He can cement his legacy. My real call to action right now is not about me. The call to action is to ask the president to pass the torch. There is an extraordinary bench of people ready to go, proximate, prepared, in a position--
CHUCK TODD:
Who would you like to see in this race?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
I would like to see a moderate governor, hopefully from the heartland, from one of the four states that Democrats will need, particularly –
CHUCK TODD:
So let's see. Gretchen Whitmer, you'd like to see her? Or is it Tim Walz, your home state governor? Tony Evers? Help me out here.
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
You just said a few names I think would be great. Josh Shapiro. There are a number of people. J.B. Pritzker. Some people have asked me that I not use their names because of this institutional fear that it might impact you down the road. This is the time to meet the moment. And I'm doing something that – I know it's unpopular with Democrats. But I'm speaking truth. That's my job. My duty is to the people I represent. But also to represent the mass majority. And I want to say this about Democrats, it's really important. Joe Biden right now is down seven points in the four swing states that will decide the next election. He has historically low approval numbers, Chuck. There are about 55% of Democrats would like to see an alternative. I can keep going down the list. The fact of the matter is --
CHUCK TODD:
No, no. Everything you're saying we've all heard in private as well. Why do you think it's all private? Why do you think this hand wringing has only really gone public for you?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
It's very simple. People are focused on self-preservation and not principle. There is no political reward in the United States right now for simply speaking the truth. Look at what happened to my Republican colleagues who dared do the right thing and support the Constitution. Support the Constitution, the only thing to which we're duty-bound. Look at what happened to them. It is not good to get out of line. It's not good to raise your hand, stand up, shout a little bit, at a time we need it more than ever. And I'm afraid that that's the culture in this institution here in Washington D.C.
CHUCK TODD:
And I saw – you believe that Hunter Biden actually reinforces this even more, don't you?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
I don't think the president is corrupt. I think the investigation will show that. But, and this is the important part, it's the image. It's what the news will do. We know what era we live in, in partisanship. It is the attachment to the president. Most people aren't watching Meet the Press every weekend.
CHUCK TODD:
But wouldn't this happen to any Democratic nominee?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
It probably will, and it saddens me. And these are the people I'm trying to represent right now, Chuck, the people who are sick and tired of this nonsense. We have a duopoly, we have a political industrial complex that if they agree on anything, it's the status quo. And by the way, now, I have trouble with Donald Trump. I do not have trouble with Trumpers who are trying to find somebody to change the system. The hardware is fine, the software is a problem, the people with whom we're populating the system. And I understand the need for transparency. We need to restore faith in government. We should do that in a thoughtful, meaningful, legitimate, and bipartisan manner. And it can be done. We need leaders in the next generation to do so. And I'm just simply expressing that point of view that I think is shared by a majority of Americans.
CHUCK TODD:
What can President Biden do to reassure you he is up to a second term?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
I'm not saying he's not up to a second term. What I'm saying is look at the data. I listen. My job is to listen. I do it every single day back in Minnesota, all over the country--
CHUCK TODD:
Right, can you change the data?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
That's the challenge. I come from the marketing world. You just explained my background. Sometimes you have a product that is extraordinary, meets the moment, you think is going to be the next big thing, and it just doesn't happen. And in business, you have to recognize it, because the data speaks the truth. The data is speaking the truth right now. And if nobody is willing to talk about it before it's too late, that's the key. It's not too late.
CHUCK TODD:
The case against what you're talking about is basically the history of our lifetimes, okay? You go back, the last four sitting presidents who had serious primary challengers, that party lost the White House.
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
But Chuck, why did they--
CHUCK TODD:
We can go back to LBJ, but also Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush.
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
But why were they primaried? Because people recognized they were weakened. The country was ready to turn the page. Now, we could have an hour debate on this subject, and I understand that. I ran for Congress after the 2016 election. I woke up the next morning, my teenaged daughters were in tears. I promised them I would do something. I'm not going to be quiet now, five years later, when the same trauma could be afflicting the country, if Donald Trump is reelected. So I will do nothing to ensure that Donald Trump is reelected. But Chuck, it's really important that people know this. I'm doing just the opposite. And if people aren't willing right now to have that conversation, to have the discussion, and most importantly, to present some alternatives, how in the world are we going to look at these numbers and say everything's okay? But hopes and dreams and prayers, I love them. They don't solve gun violence, they don't give health insurance to Americans, right? And they sure as heck won't change the numbers that I'm seeing right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Have you talked to Joe Manchin? Do you want him to run in a Democratic primary instead of as an Independent for No Labels?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
I want anybody who wants to run -- Joe Manchin, Cornel West, any of the governors--
CHUCK TODD:
You want him in the primary?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
In the primary. That's why we have primaries, because that doesn't undermine the likelihood of returning, in this case, a Democrat to the White House. So that is the key. Enter the primary, my friends. Everybody who is on the bench, meet the moment. Don't wait five years. We need you now.
CHUCK TODD:
When are you going to make a decision? You're waiting for somebody, who you’ve said, with a bigger name--
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
I'm not waiting. No --
CHUCK TODD:
– to come in. How long are you going to wait?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
Waiting is like hopes and prayers. I'm actively inviting, encouraging, to some degree, imploring that people who are ready and know it's probably time to do so, take the chance.
CHUCK TODD:
You met with donors. Are they directly going to some of these candidates and pleading with them to get in, or not?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
Well, Chuck, if donors and average, everyday, wonderful, normal Americans are coming to me of all people, you don't think they're approaching those people in much higher numbers with even more frequency?
CHUCK TODD:
But you don't know yet.
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
No, I know they are. And I'll make the decision once I do my darndest in the next month or so to encourage others to do so. Please, this is an appeal to everybody of good conscience and good character. Let's turn the page. And imagine how fun, hopeful, and exciting it would be. We're going to do it.
CHUCK TODD:
Dean Phillips, Democrat from suburban Minnesota. Thanks for coming on, sharing your perspective.
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And we will see you hopefully at this table when you make your decision.
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
I look forward to it.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Before we go to break, at least 93 people as of this morning have died in that devastating wildfire on Maui this week, making it now the deadliest natural disaster in Hawaii's history. And it's now the nation's deadliest wildfire in more than a century. If you want to help, please consider giving to these organizations that we have vetted: the Maui Food bank, the American Red Cross, or the Hawaii Community Foundation. For more information, you can go wherever you follow Meet the Press on social media. We have those links. When we come back, the 2024 campaign is now clouded by not one, not two, but three special counts: investigating a sitting president, a former president, and a sitting president's son. Will the legal drama overshadow everything else? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here. Betsy Woodruff Swan, national correspondent for Politico; Politico Playbook co-author Eugene Daniels. So Politico owes us a lot this week. Brendan Buck, the former advisor to House Speakers Paul Ryan and John Boehner; and Symone Sanders-Townsend, host of Symone and the former chief spokesperson for Vice President Kamala Harris, also part of the Biden campaign. Betsy, you were in the courtroom when the Hunter Biden plea deal fell apart. You were covering, covering that story live. Did you think two weeks later you were covering a special counsel?
BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN:
In the courtroom that day, it was clear that things were going totally sideways. And it was clear that one of the most basic things Justice Department prosecutors and defense attorneys are always supposed to do before rolling out a plea deal that they had not done. What they had not agreed on, according to this court hearing, was just how much protection Hunter Biden would receive from other future criminal charges from DOJ. And at the same time, in that totally wacky, bizarro world hearing, Justice Department prosecutors also said they were still investigating Hunter Biden, and they refused to give any elaboration on what they meant by that. So it's not surprising at all that two weeks later, when DOJ and those defense lawyers went back to the drawing board, they couldn't change where they were at on just how much the plea deal would limit the Justice Department. That was the key issue. How much continued criminal exposure did Hunter face? They couldn't agree on it, and it's not a surprise that now DOJ says they're headed to trial.
CHUCK TODD:
Eugene, I can't help but, but bring up what Chuck Rosenberg said. He just thought this appointment was cosmetic.
EUGENE DANIELS:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Which makes you think that Garland is almost so worried about perception we’re not – are we focused on reality?
EUGENE DANIELS:
Yeah, one of the things about Garland from the very beginning, anyone that you talk to who was a part of the actual choosing of Merrick Garland, is that they were always worried that he was someone who was going to stay way too far back. He was going to be someone who was going to be doing special counsels because he was so concerned with the perception.
CHUCK TODD:
I thought the whole point of the circuit judge was to avoid a special counsel. That was the whole idea. You're bringing in somebody that’s been, that's got bipartisan confirmation hearing.
EUGENE DANIELS:
Exactly. Exactly. But he is – but there's something about the way that Merrick Garland sees the world. One, the four years of Donald Trump and the DOJ and those fights, that he just wanted to make sure that you – people couldn't even sniff it out that was something going wrong. And that's what we're seeing. Special counsel after special counsel after special counsel.
CHUCK TODD:
Symone, is this going to harm the campaign more personally because President Biden, you can't talk to him about this, than it does practically? Or do you think this is pretty harmful to the campaign?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I think that this is something that President Biden is being talked to about. The question is, is it a big group round table conversation? I would argue to say no. If you look at the Ipsos poll right after the plea deal that then fell apart, but the plea deal that was announced for Hunter Biden, Americans who were polled and who were asked, they view this as a personal issue for Hunter and not an issue for President Biden. And so right now, it is not actually affecting the way that people are you know considering voting in 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, though, Brendan, you can't help but watch all this play out. And it's like Donald Trump has been trying to bring Biden's brand down to him. Goes back to 2018 when he sent Rudy Giuliani to Ukraine. He's been desperate and he did it. And and and it's Joe Biden's own attorney general that just announced the investigation.
BRENDAN BUCK:
Yeah, I mean, it is basic politics trying to turn your opponent's strength into a weakness. And one of the things that I think Joe Biden was elected to do was to clear out the ,you know, the mess of the White House, bring ethics and decency back. And this is clearly an effort to do that. Now, I think the White House and the president's reelection need to take this a bit more seriously than what they're doing. It was very easy for a long time for Democrats to just say, "Well, that's stuff on the crazy right-wing websites.”
CHUCK TODD:
They could call it House Republican stuff.
BRENDAN BUCK:
Yeah, and now it's going to be in trial. It's going to be front-page news everywhere. I think they need to appreciate that this could damage him pretty seriously.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to bring something up, though, about the whole legal. I'm going to show you this excerpt from an Axios focus group about the indictments. Michigan swing voters, from our friend Rich Thau, here it is.
[START TAPE]
RICH THAU:
Who can tell me what this latest indictment is related to? In other words, what event? Who can tell me what this is related to? Without blurting it out. Five of you. Shonte, what is it about?
SWING VOTER 1:
I'm torn on the Georgia or the documents. It's one of those two.
SWING VOTER 2:
I thought it was about the whole Stormy Daniels scandal.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
This is something that you wonder, "Is it all mud?" And it's hard. How many voters are like them, that they're just seeing the mud, they're not seeing the details?
BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN:
There's a real question as to how much the details that continue to emerge in court related to Trump are going to move where voters are at on these things. Because there's already been so much out in relation to the former president. When it comes to the Biden side of the issue, though, there's actually a huge potential political landmine for President Biden. That is, Hunter Biden's lawyers have told DOJ that if they bring charges against him of being a drug user in possession of a gun, which is a felony, Hunter's lawyers have said that they will argue that statute is unconstitutional under the Second Amendment. That would mean that if Biden is running for president as someone arguing to constrain gun rights, Hunter's lawyers would be defending him by saying, "No, those rights need to be broader." Lots of other criminal defense lawyers have made that case. But talk about a massive political headache for the White House.
EUGENE DANIELS:
One of the things that – the reasons that it's probably worse for the Biden folks is because it's counter to what Biden –
CHUCK TODD:
To his narrative.
EUGENE DANIELS:
The narrative is that, "I'm a family man who doesn't have a lot of drama. That's why you chose me. I'm here to put my hands on the wheel." Exactly what Brendan's talking about. And most voters are not going to understand the differences about the things that are happening. You have special counsel, and that is the concern to folks. And the Biden folks, they have already resigned themselves that Hunter Biden was going to be used as a bludgeon against them during the campaign. They don't see this as that different.
BRENDAN BUCK:
The confusion there is exactly what I'm talking about. The Democrats need to realize that if you don't define this, Republicans are going to get in there, and jump in, and explain what happened. And they're going to tie it to the president. And they need to be very clear that no evidence has been found tying it to him.
CHUCK TODD:
Symone, Dean Phillips. I want to – sorry, I wanted to get you on Dean Phillips.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
What about Dean Phillips?
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I had a feeling that – do you think by the end of this, do you think that between Hunter Biden and this hand-wringing about him in general, these poll numbers, do you think somebody more serious is going to jump in?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Chuck, I wrote down what Congressman Phillips said. He said, "It's a call to action to ask the president to pass the torch." My question is where were these conversations when there were all of these articles, from Politico to the Wall Street Journal and to Axios about the president not having announced the reelection campaign yet, wondering if he's going to get in and do it. That, I think, would've been the time where folks should air these concerns and these grievances. I do not think there is a legitimate appetite for another Democratic candidate.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. You're going to get in again, all of you will. We're going to come back. But when we come back, Ohio voters delivered a victory this week for supporters of abortion rights. From red states to blue states, abortion politics is actually less partisan than you might think. Data Download is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. And yet another win for reproductive rights. This week, Ohio voters defeated a plan that would've made it more difficult to enshrine abortion rights in the state constitution. The Ohio vote is just the latest example of how in state after state, voters are coming down on the side of abortion rights. And they're not just Democrats. Let me just show you here in Ohio. This was the overall number here: 57-43, double-digit win for essentially the abortion rights side. Again, this was a one-off. This wasn't about abortion directly yet. That referendum will now take place in November in Ohio. Look, as you can see here, Donald Trump won Ohio by single digits. J.D. Vance won it by single digits. Mike DeWine won it by 25 points. There's a distinction here between these Republicans. MAGA, MAGA, Mike DeWine non-MAGA. Why am I bringing this up? Because it's important to understanding the issue of abortion. When you look at “Do you approve of the overturning of Roe v. Wade,” two-thirds of Republicans approved of it. When you break it up between those that are part of the Trump movement and those that aren't, you see the divide inside the party. MAGA Republicans approved of it at 80%. The non-MAGA win – wing, 51 – only 51% approved of that. And this is how you see it on the map. These are your suburban Republicans. These are these voters that have been going back and forth on Trump for some time. Here's the 2020 vote. You only saw there seven counties that Joe Biden won. When you look at the 2023 ballot measure here on abortion rights, in each one of those urban areas that Biden won, there was spread. More of these suburban Republican-leaning counties ended up voting on the abortion rights side, be it around Cleveland, around Columbus, Toledo. Even in and around Dayton. Guess what? We saw the same pattern in Kansas. Joe Biden only won five counties there. But when it was about abortion rights, you saw suburban counties around Wichita, the suburban counties around Topeka, the suburban counties around Kansas City, those counties which narrowly went Republican in a presidential, ended up voting on the abortion rights side. Michigan saw the same thing. Again, in each of these cases, the metro area spread, if you will, those suburban counties. They are not Trump fans in general, and they are certainly not fans of the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Five Americans imprisoned in Iran are now one step closer to home after the U.S. and Iranian governments reached a rare breakthrough this week that moved them to house arrest. It's the first step of a planned prisoner exchange in which the U.S. will also release $6 billion of frozen Iranian assets from South Korea. More than 40 years ago, President Jimmy Carter struggled to navigate the unfolding Iran hostage crisis at that time. And Joe Biden, then a senator on the Foreign Relations Committee, joined our broadcast to offer his perspective.
[START TAPE]
SEN. JOE BIDEN:
I think the most important thing, both for the American public and for the Iranians and the Ayatollah to understand is that the president is cool, calm, and deliberate, and logical about the steps he's going to take, showing absolute resolve, and not to go in – in a – in a – with a sense of bravado at this point and do what everyone from Ezer Weizman to the man-in-the-street knows would result in the immediate death of the – of the hostages by some use of major military force. I think there's a logical progression. And I think it will result in the release of the hostages. But I have no crystal ball. God only knows.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Joe Biden was just in his second term in the Senate. When we come back, the 2024 lessons for both parties on the issue of abortion. More with the panel next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It's been seven states post-Dobbs that we've seen -- and anything related to abortion rights, end up falling in favor of the abortion rights side. Brendan Buck, a lot of Republicans and conservatives are starting to rethink their stand on this issue. Here's Sean Hannity earlier this week:
[START TAPE]
SEAN HANNITY:
I believe in the sanctity of life. But I think politically that there is -- Republicans have got to say, as Bill Clinton once said -- I never thought I'd quote him -- "Rare, legal," and I'd add the word "very early" in a pregnancy. That seems to be politically where the country is. Maybe I'm wrong. But we'll see. That vote in Ohio was pretty, pretty sobering.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
How many elected Republicans share Sean Hannity's concern?
BRENDAN BUCK:
Probably more than a few. But I'm not holding my breath that the party's going to change position any time. There is a large infrastructure in place. Getting people elected in Republican primaries, where you basically have to assume the asserted position that it's much further to the right than I think a lot of people are. It's clearly a loser for us, but I think we're a long ways out from being able to recognize that and make any meaningful change.
CHUCK TODD:
That's interesting. This -- as everybody hand wrings about Biden and Trump -- no pun intended -- this is the trump card for Democrats?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Yeah, I mean, I think every -- if you look at 2022, everywhere that abortion was on the ballot, voters went and voted in support of codifying those rights into their state's constitution. This Ohio vote, I think, is, in fact, a precursor to what we will see this November where I expect Ohio is going to --
CHUCK TODD:
Probably almost an identical vote. Probably, yeah.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Yeah, they're going to go out and they're going to say, "Look, we want these rights enshrined in our constitution." Because people see what is happening. And I think that because the vice president -- Vice President Harris has been very vocal on this issue, rallying folks across the country, reminding people that this is about freedom and about being able to make decisions between the health care professionals and you and your family, and not politicians. That's something that resonates with folks.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Eugene, Carl Rove in '03 saw same-sex marriage propositions against -- you know, anti-same-sex marriage propositions in swings states as way to drive up turnout. Democrats are looking at protecting abortion rights, places like Arizona, maybe Florida.
EUGENE DANIELS:
No, absolutely. They, they’ve known that the voters were scared after Dobbs. And the one thing that they have done a good job of is actually channeling that fear and anger. And this was one of the ways to do that, right? You look at Ohio as, "Is this a way that we can make sure that voters come out to vote in Novembers?" Whether that's this November or next November. Michigan, one of those. Florida is another one.
CHUCK TODD:
That Republican debate stage when abortion comes up; I'm going to be fascinated at how they all try to tiptoe around it all.
BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN:
That's right. No question. It's one of the biggest challenges, some of the hottest potatoes, shall we say, for this tranche of Republican primary voters. It also raises a really interesting issue for Republican governors and state legislatures, as they try to play defense against these ballot initiatives. Arkansas just passed a law making it harder to get ballot initiatives on the ballot. Instead of needing signatures of people from 15 counties, now you need 50 counties.
CHUCK TODD:
If you're changing the rules rather than changing your position, you're still going to lose to the voters. I mean, I just don’t -- it fascinates me that people try to do that.
BRENDAN BUCK:
I think it was really instructive, the way the debate played out. If you watch some of the ads in Ohio, the ads weren't even necessarily about abortion. They were warning, "This is about transgender rights. You better watch out what's coming in here." They don't even want to take on the issue head on, because they know it's a loser.
CHUCK TODD:
What a week. August, slow news month. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.